Guild Wars 2

First i would like to say that i already did the first wing of the raid, but everytime it was really stressfull and time consuming not because of the fight itself ( because the fight is really fun ) but looking for X class / build, having to kick someone for underperforming and making everyone lose time etc.
So i was thinking about an entry level raid, that would be just like the one we have now but without the timer ( and obvious without any of the current raid reward ), the reward could be something like just a Tier 4 fractal chest, with this players could see all the raids fight by themselves.
Why this? Without the timer everyone can practice the fight instead of watching a youtube video ( and making easier to find good people for the normal raid ), can see the history first hand and with the tier 4 fractal chest can even get a ascended item for helping them trying the normal raid later.

The timer doesn’t really hinder practice

People don’t fail raid fights because of the timer, so I’m not sure how a special raid instance without any timers would help things.

Zui.9245:

People don’t fail raid fights because of the timer, so I’m not sure how a special raid instance without any timers would help things.

People fail because of enrage timers, i already been in a lot of pubs that failed.
Nobody wants to practice in a wipe party, and without a timer i can go with a meta build and pratice my rotation, mechanics without worrying if my party members are using the right build. There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it.

Timer is not really the problem.

Boss mechanics
Personal skill and rotation

And most or all, handle well both of them during the fight are main reasons why people fail.

OnizukaBR.8537:

People fail because of enrage timers, i already been in a lot of pubs that failed.

Wrong. 99% of all wipes are due to mistakes with mechanics.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Nobody wants to practice in a wipe party,

You have to fail to become better. And if you think you are superior to the rest of your group you’ll leave and look for a better one.

OnizukaBR.8537:

and without a timer i can go with a meta build and pratice my rotation, mechanics without worrying if my party members are using the right build.

No, without a timer you will try to tank your way through if you can’t handle the actual requirements leading to a cheezy way and the challenge would be gone.

OnizukaBR.8537:

There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it.

Raids are the challenging PvE end content in this game. It’s not meant to be facerolled like dungeons and fractals. And tbh they aren’t really hard to beat the problem of the big playerbase in GW2 is that the majority isn’t very good in this game.

Why not create enrage dummies that down you after a certain period of time that you can practice on in the raid lobby or LA?

OnizukaBR.8537:

People fail because of enrage timers, i already been in a lot of pubs that failed.
Nobody wants to practice in a wipe party, and without a timer i can go with a meta build and pratice my rotation, mechanics without worrying if my party members are using the right build. There are a lot of people that still doesnt raid but would love just having a more relaxing and fun way to do it.

People don’t fail because of the timer. They fail because of mechanics and people that die.

VG : Most wipe are because the boss you lose too many people. Either because of green circle, because of teleport on the floor, because the boss don’t move fast enough and you have to move on the floor, or because of seekers. Without a timer you will still have to finish the fight with half the players. I never fail that boss because of the timer unless we had like 3+ people dead. This boss is so little of a dps check, you can succeed at it with several minutes left. You can beat him with almost any composition as long as people succeed at the mechanics.

Gorseval : Removing the timer wouldn’t change much tbh. The updraft will still limit you. If you slow cc at the 3rd and 4th spot you could probably do like 10% more damage while using the 4th Updraft but you can already do that. So all it would make is like a 1min with less incoming damage.

Sabetha : I’m not sure about that one. The enrage is pretty brutal for her with all 4 canons, but how much time can you keep the platform alive? This could make a difference, but I’m not sure how much. Most likely if you need the extra time, you already fail at some of the mechanics and the platform will collapse not long after.

Slothazor : I don’t even know what he does in enrage. I seriously never ever got to that point. The dps check is almost non existant, most people bring 2 healers here. It’s the mechanics and incoming damage that make this one fail.

Bandit Trio : It’s a joke raid boss. It’s like 5 times more easy than any of the other boss. Who care.

Matthias : Really easy dps check here. Most people bring 2 healers here too. It’s all about mechanics and survivability. Even the enrage is super easy. You can easily fight 1-2min in enrage with almost zero impact.

I see your point, but you fall into the obvious trap. The enrage timer is the easy scapegoat that people can blame for failing. Seriously be honest. What is your percentage of the tries you did that end up failing while still having 10 people at enrage time? My bet is that it’s a percentage near zero.

For all boss, either there is another mechanics that will stop the fight not long after the end of the timer, or the dps check is super easy or the enrage timer is really not a big deal. People fail because of mechanics or survivability, but it’s sure easier to blame the scary big timer than to look at what failed exactly and what you can change.

If you are failing due to enrage then the problem is not the mechanics of the fight

Valik Shin.9027:

If you are failing to enrage then the problem is not the mechanics of the fight

Not sure I understand what you mean. If you are failing to reach enrage then the problem is obviously the mechanics. Or do you mean if you are failing in enrage?

Thaddeus.4891:

Valik Shin.9027:

If you are failing to enrage then the problem is not the mechanics of the fight

Not sure I understand what you mean. If you are failing to reach enrage then the problem is obviously the mechanics. Or do you mean if you are failing in enrage?

I think what he means is that if the entire raid gets to wipe with 10 man at the enrage timer, they have the mechanics down but are lacking in a different area (to defensive, lack of dps, etc.).

I guess that could be true, but as others have said 99% of the time it’s not the enrage timer that is the problem. Losing 1-10 people before getting there is the usual problem.

Here is a hint: get the entire group to the enrage timer without losing anyone, then work off of that, getting the dps needed is the easy bit. My bet is you’ll not get even that far since it requires for players to be able to deal with all the mechanics of the fight first.

Yes. I ment failing due to enrage. Edited sorry for confusion

I agree that nearly all fails are due to mechanics assuming that everyone is doing decent damage with viable builds but we are talking about pugs here. Anything can happen and people do stuff like personal survivability over team utility. So yeah, dps can be a problem if people don’t know rotations but manage to pull off the mechanics. I have seen this happen.

I would actually like an entry level raid that you have to do once to be able to do the rest of the raids. ACTUALLY. Here’s what I suggest.

We have an amazing place to practice raiding. The special forces area. Keep adding onto it, so that you can A. summon a raid boss or B. make the golem act like a certain Raid boss. Then implement a tutorial/practice mode where it will walk you through each of the boss’ mechanics and how to deal with them. This will take time to implement, so don’t hold your breathe, we didn’t even get Legendary weapons.

However, I feel that if you complete a tutorial for a boss in this raid scenario, you get an Apple or some other thing on your nameplate when joining a raid group or just a squad that shows you’ve completed a tutorial for the respective boss.

Now. This is what should happen. But ArenaNet doesn’t have the resources to do this, but if they ever do this, Raid’s problems would be completely solved. There are a lot of videos around, but its completely different when you’re actually in the game yourself dodging and looking at the conditions in game. The hardest part for many people is actually getting to the boss and seeing what it does + recognizing patterns and effects. It’s impossible to do it solo with enough DPS and the problem is for a PUG you need 9 other people to go with. If you had 9 other people already determined to Raid with you, you don’t have any problems at all.

WoW has a system similar to this in LFG, where you do the trials and get Bronze, Silver, and Gold when you decide on a role you want to do (Healer, Tank, or DPS) and it LETS you queue up for the respective level of difficulty LFG.

I feel GW2 can benefit from such a system here if they’ve gone back on their word and given us the Holy Trinity, and so we need to start teaching players how to handle the Holy Trinity in raids and what their god given purpose is in the Raid.

tl;dr: You’ve got the Special Forces Training Area. Add an update to convert it into a training facility for raids, (which it sort of is), and this will unlock the ability to queue up for Raids. What players really need is a step 1 to begin Raids, and learning what your role does during Raids is key.

NotOverlyCheesy.9427:

I agree that nearly all fails are due to mechanics assuming that everyone is doing decent damage with viable builds but we are talking about pugs here. Anything can happen and people do stuff like personal survivability over team utility. So yeah, dps can be a problem if people don’t know rotations but manage to pull off the mechanics. I have seen this happen.

It’s a possibility, but I highly doudt it. I never saw someone talk about failing in enrage mode with 10 people except with the old Gorseval when he had bugged agro and moved all over the place. I just never heard of it and never saw it. I played with pugs and I brought a lot of new players into raid, I played with players in exotic, with non meta build and it just never happen. I’m not saying that it cannot be a problem, but unless people start to complain that they fail at enrage with 10 people still alive I will consider that a very niche problem.

And the thing is there was a lot and I really mean a LOT of post on this forum about the timer and the dps check and all of that and I never saw once someone talk about failing at the enrage with 10 people still alive. Never.

So for me, like I already said, it’s a solution without a problem. Or at least a solution that will fix a very little minority of problem and that almost everybody that asked for this solution when see their problem fixed at all. These people asking for the removal of the timer will see fail the raid as often as they do now with or without the timer. So rather than to waste devs times on a solution that fix nothing, either nothing should be done or let’s make a proper training/easy/entry level mode that they will actually be able to complete.

But then we get into the infinite debate about what would that be exactly and what would be the reward and then nobody agree and we end up with 12 pages of useless back and forth.

You have to fail to become better.

This is completely 100% wrong.

You do not have to fail to get better, you can succeed, and then do it again and also succeed, and do it better.

I just did Dark Reverie for the first time in about two years the other day. First try, cleared it without missing a beat. Is that because I kept failing and failing until I “got gud?” No. Far from it. The first time I tried it I did fail a few times, fell, died, got some lucky rezzes, etc., but eventually I beat it. If I’d gone back in the next day I likely would have fallen and died a bunch of times along the way again. But a couple years later, and I’m sailing through it.

That doesn’t come from repeated failures, it comes from repeated successes. It comes from spending the past two years jumping on all sorts of things in all sorts of ways and just constantly building my basic jumping skillset, not from failing at those challenges, but by succeeding at them, better and better each time. Failure often happens along the way of learning new things, but that doesn’t mean it actually benefits the process. The failures impede the learning process, by forcing you to backtrack and redo portions that you’ve already cleared.

This idea that “you must fail to grow” is complete nonsense, I don’t know why some people insist on repeating it.

Raids are the challenging PvE end content in this game. It’s not meant to be facerolled like dungeons and fractals.

The OP’s suggestion was for an ALTERNATE VERSION. Your “raids as challenging content” version would still exist, but this would be an alternative for people who aren’t looking for that.

VG : Most wipe are because the boss you lose too many people. Either because of green circle, because of teleport on the floor, because the boss don’t move fast enough and you have to move on the floor, or because of seekers.

But, if there were no timer, players would not have to focus on DPS. They could gear for tankiness, or at the very least they could chill out on damage, just putting out the minimal DPs, so they could focus more on avoiding mechanics and using their moves tactically rather than “on rotation.” It’s hard to argue that removing the timer would not give players more flexibility.

Gorseval : Removing the timer wouldn’t change much tbh. The updraft will still limit you. If you slow cc at the 3rd and 4th spot you could probably do like 10% more damage while using the 4th Updraft but you can already do that. So all it would make is like a 1min with less incoming damage.

This is true, but in a case like this, if the goal is to “remove the timer,” then why stop with removing the enrage timer, why not remove the “updraft timer” as well. Once you get through all four updrafts, allow the first one to respawn, allowing you to rotate indefinitely.

Sabetha : I’m not sure about that one. The enrage is pretty brutal for her with all 4 canons, but how much time can you keep the platform alive? This could make a difference, but I’m not sure how much. Most likely if you need the extra time, you already fail at some of the mechanics and the platform will collapse not long after.

Again, the collapsing platform is another soft timer, so just remove that as well. Show some visible damage, but don’t actually allow it to fall. Again, the point is to “remove the timer,” so “remove the timer.”

Slothazor : I don’t even know what he does in enrage. I seriously never ever got to that point. The dps check is almost non existant, most people bring 2 healers here. It’s the mechanics and incoming damage that make this one fail.

See VG.

Matthias : Really easy dps check here. Most people bring 2 healers here too. It’s all about mechanics and survivability. Even the enrage is super easy. You can easily fight 1-2min in enrage with almost zero impact.

See VG.

Removing the timers isn’t my preferred solution, but it would provide a different experience, and one that would at least be easier in some ways.

Ohoni.6057:

You have to fail to become better.

This is completely 100% wrong.

You do not have to fail to get better, you can succeed, and then do it again and also succeed, and do it better.

I just did Dark Reverie for the first time in about two years the other day. First try, cleared it without missing a beat. Is that because I kept failing and failing until I “got gud?” No. Far from it. The first time I tried it I did fail a few times, fell, died, got some lucky rezzes, etc., but eventually I beat it. If I’d gone back in the next day I likely would have fallen and died a bunch of times along the way again. But a couple years later, and I’m sailing through it.

That doesn’t come from repeated failures, it comes from repeated successes. It comes from spending the past two years jumping on all sorts of things in all sorts of ways and just constantly building my basic jumping skillset, not from failing at those challenges, but by succeeding at them, better and better each time. Failure often happens along the way of learning new things, but that doesn’t mean it actually benefits the process. The failures impede the learning process, by forcing you to backtrack and redo portions that you’ve already cleared.

This idea that “you must fail to grow” is complete nonsense, I don’t know why some people insist on repeating it.

Raids are the challenging PvE end content in this game. It’s not meant to be facerolled like dungeons and fractals.

The OP’s suggestion was for an ALTERNATE VERSION. Your “raids as challenging content” version would still exist, but this would be an alternative for people who aren’t looking for that.

VG : Most wipe are because the boss you lose too many people. Either because of green circle, because of teleport on the floor, because the boss don’t move fast enough and you have to move on the floor, or because of seekers.

But, if there were no timer, players would not have to focus on DPS. They could gear for tankiness, or at the very least they could chill out on damage, just putting out the minimal DPs, so they could focus more on avoiding mechanics and using their moves tactically rather than “on rotation.” It’s hard to argue that removing the timer would not give players more flexibility.

Gorseval : Removing the timer wouldn’t change much tbh. The updraft will still limit you. If you slow cc at the 3rd and 4th spot you could probably do like 10% more damage while using the 4th Updraft but you can already do that. So all it would make is like a 1min with less incoming damage.

This is true, but in a case like this, if the goal is to “remove the timer,” then why stop with removing the enrage timer, why not remove the “updraft timer” as well. Once you get through all four updrafts, allow the first one to respawn, allowing you to rotate indefinitely.

Sabetha : I’m not sure about that one. The enrage is pretty brutal for her with all 4 canons, but how much time can you keep the platform alive? This could make a difference, but I’m not sure how much. Most likely if you need the extra time, you already fail at some of the mechanics and the platform will collapse not long after.

Again, the collapsing platform is another soft timer, so just remove that as well. Show some visible damage, but don’t actually allow it to fall. Again, the point is to “remove the timer,” so “remove the timer.”

Slothazor : I don’t even know what he does in enrage. I seriously never ever got to that point. The dps check is almost non existant, most people bring 2 healers here. It’s the mechanics and incoming damage that make this one fail.

See VG.

Matthias : Really easy dps check here. Most people bring 2 healers here too. It’s all about mechanics and survivability. Even the enrage is super easy. You can easily fight 1-2min in enrage with almost zero impact.

See VG.

Removing the timers isn’t my preferred solution, but it would provide a different experience, and one that would at least be easier in some ways.

I find it pretty dishonest to compare a raid which is a team effort and endgame content and a jumping puzzle that you can solo……

Ohoni.6057:

…

Cool, easier stuff…and why? 99% of the game is faceroll content and would only be harder if you set your own difficulties like soloing some stuff (champs, fracs and more) or carrying 4 clueless pugs through instances.

Ohoni.6057:

This is completely 100% wrong.

You do not have to fail to get better, you can succeed, and then do it again and also succeed, and do it better.

This idea that “you must fail to grow” is complete nonsense, I don’t know why some people insist on repeating it.

No, you need not, indeed. And nobody in this thread has ever said it’s a must to fail to become better, nobody followed “an idea of whatever”, dude. You didn’t get the message at all, especially not for GW2, too bad for you.

Just have a look at the average GW2 player. They are horrible and most of them are not willing to learn, practice or even change their gear. So there is no reason to ease this little piece of content where you actually have to use some brain and not only to press 11111.
I won’t go into detail about your suggestions in removing the timer or anything else. Please be informed and you will find out that it will absolutely make no sense to change it like you have described.
Also have a look onto this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl_IUQuZuCg

Raids are actually low-manned today and we still see tears and rant. Awkward, in my opinion!
People who cannot beat the raid encounters are just not playing well, that’s all.

I find it pretty dishonest to compare a raid which is a team effort and endgame content and a jumping puzzle that you can solo……

How is it “dishonest?” I mean, what about anything I said was inaccurate? You may not agree that it’s a fair comparison, but to be fair, I wasn’t comparing the two, I was just giving an example of a skill-based activity in which I’d once struggled, and showing how it wasn’t through failure that my skills improved, but rather through repeated successes.

Cool, easier stuff…and why? 99% of the game is faceroll content and would only be harder if you set your own difficulties like soloing some stuff (champs, fracs and more) or carrying 4 clueless pugs through instances.

Hey, people want it. You don’t have to understand why people want it, just accept that they do, that it would make their gaming experience better, just as I can’t understand why you would enjoy the current raids, but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be allowed to have them. It’s not your role to say “I don’t need this, so you have to prove to me why I would want if for you to be able to have it.” Nobody has to justify it to you in any way that would make it useful or important to you. You just have to accept that it would be useful and important to people other than yourself.

No, you need not, indeed. And nobody in this thread has ever said it’s a must to fail to become better, nobody followed “an idea of whatever”, dude.

>

You have to fail to become better.

I quoted it right there in my post. Somebody clearly said it.

I won’t go into detail about your suggestions in removing the timer or anything else. Please be informed and you will find out that it will absolutely make no sense to change it like you have described.

Like I said, it’s not my favorite solution to the difficulty problem, so I won’t go out of my way to defend it, I was just pointing out that removing the timers WOULD make a difference to players who are currently struggling with it.

Also have a look onto this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl_IUQuZuCg

I’d rather not watch a 40 minute raid video, but my assumption is that they played for like 30 minutes under the enrage phase? Is that something that you believe any low-skill group of players should be capable of doing? If not, how would that be at all useful here?

People trying to defend raid difficulty tend to whip out videos of expert players still managing to beat the bosses even after doing something ridiculously disadvantaging, but that proves nothing about how an inexpert group could perform the basic task of beating the boss. Just because an expert group can survive 30 minutes in the enrage state doesn’t mean that it is not a threat that an inexpert group has to deal with, and that they would have an easier time completing the boss if they didn’t have to worry about it.

People who cannot beat the raid encounters are just not playing well, that’s all.

Yes, and fair enough, not everyone is or ever will be a high skilled player, but they’d still like to play and clear the raid, even if they can’t play well. So assuming that their skills don’t improve significantly, what options would you suggest they regularly clear the raid anyway?

It has been said enough times: Raids are not that hard as some people like you want to make others believe.

I have seen so many players with low skill having success with bosses in the raid because they listened, changed their gear, brought useful classes, were improving while practicing and learned the encounter. Some examples of them you will find in this forum. I by myself carried Bearbows, Staff-Necros and GS-Mesmers through and we all know about that specific playerbase.
That’s how to do it and still there is no need to bring easier modes or anything like that. If you want to have it, go for it.

Ohoni.6057:

I quoted it right there in my post. Somebody clearly said it.

Yes, it was a simple sentence and you turned it into being a rule of us/someone what is absolutely bs. It’s just that things behave like this in general or most of the attempts when you are trying something new.

Btw. you didn’t understand the 40 minutes video. It was an example that the timer can be bypassed. And I repeat this the 1000th time now: The timer is not responsible for wipes in 99,9% of the attempts on VG. Have you ever lead training runs? You don’t look out for the timer there – never!

It has been said enough times: Raids are not that hard as some people like you want to make others believe.

And it has been said enough times that while they may not be hard for you, they are hard for plenty of others, and no matter how easy they may be for you, that is completely irrelevant to those that find it difficult.

Yes, it was a simple sentence and you turned it into being a rule of us/someone what is absolutely bs. It’s just that things behave like this in general or most of the attempts when you are trying something new.

It was not the first time that I’ve encountered similar statements, people insisting that repeated failed attempts are the ONLY proper way to learn how to raid, and that any version that can be successfully completed early on would be completely incapable fo teaching anything.

Btw. you didn’t understand the 40 minutes video. It was an example that the timer can be bypassed.

Ok, well you could have just said that instead of blind linking to a 40 minutes video, right? Even if the timer can be bypassed in some way, that isn’t something that a new group is likely to stumble onto, and might even be considered an exploit.

And I’m sure most groups do wipe well before hitting the timer, but that’s at least in part because they are playing knowing there is a timer and that they have to eventually beat it. They gear, build, and play in a way that intended to out-damage the timer, even if they come nowhere close. Removing the timer takes a lot of pressure off. And again, maybe that isn’t true for you, it doesn’t have to be, but it is true for others.

Really a lot of the disagreements around here could be resolved if people were just more willing to accept that their own experiences don’t necessarily apply to everyone else, that what they enjoy, others might not, that what doesn’t upset them might still upset others, etc. Stop spending so much time telling other people how they should handle things to be more like you, and start trying to understand why they don’t want to do that.

Ohoni.6057:

And it has been said enough times that while they may not be hard for you, they are hard for plenty of others, and no matter how easy they may be for you, that is completely irrelevant to those that find it difficult.

And those who claim to not being able to succeed have either not tried hard enough or are just lying.

Ohoni.6057:

It was not the first time that I’ve encountered similar statements, people insisting that repeated failed attempts are the ONLY proper way to learn how to raid, and that any version that can be successfully completed early on would be completely incapable fo teaching anything.

The difference is: Nobody said “ONLY” except you. You turned it, you are the one nit-picking here.

Ohoni.6057:

Ok, well you could have just said that instead of blind linking to a 40 minutes video, right? Even if the timer can be bypassed in some way, that isn’t something that a new group is likely to stumble onto, and might even be considered an exploit.

And I’m sure most groups do wipe well before hitting the timer, but that’s at least in part because they are playing knowing there is a timer and that they have to eventually beat it. They gear, build, and play in a way that intended to out-damage the timer, even if they come nowhere close. Removing the timer takes a lot of pressure off. And again, maybe that isn’t true for you, it doesn’t have to be, but it is true for others.

Really a lot of the disagreements around here could be resolved if people were just more willing to accept that their own experiences don’t necessarily apply to everyone else, that what they enjoy, others might not, that what doesn’t upset them might still upset others, etc. Stop spending so much time telling other people how they should handle things to be more like you, and start trying to understand why they don’t want to do that.

No, you are wrong. 100% and absolutely wrong. Training runs aren’t about looking on the timer. You start them without pressuring teammates. Wow, you rly don’t have any clue you are talking about.

And at last, before I quit this inexpressibly discussion with you. Maybe you can also understand that some people don’t want content to be changed like it has been done in so many cases in this game. Again: 99% of all Tyrian content is just faceroll. If people can’t accept that there is 1% content which is not to be dealt easily, they should be excluded. If they don’t want to get their as*es up, they should never ever get any reward. Period!

And those who claim to not being able to succeed have either not tried hard enough or are just lying.

“Really a lot of the disagreements around here could be resolved if people were just more willing to accept that their own experiences don’t necessarily apply to everyone else, that what they enjoy, others might not, that what doesn’t upset them might still upset others, etc. Stop spending so much time telling other people how they should handle things to be more like you, and start trying to understand why they don’t want to do that.”

The difference is: Nobody said “ONLY” except you. You turned it, you are the one nit-picking here.

>

You have to fail to become better.

No, you are wrong. 100% and absolutely wrong. Training runs aren’t about looking on the timer. You start them without pressuring teammates. Wow, you rly don’t have any clue you are talking about.

Even if you try to avoid putting pressure on people, the pressure is still there, because people actually want to beat the boss without having to spend hours and hours accomplishing nothing.

And at last, before I quit this inexpressibly discussion with you. Maybe you can also understand that some people don’t want content to be changed like it has been done in so many cases in this game.

And again, nobody is asking that the existing content be changed in any way, just that alternative versions be provided for those that aren’t well suited to the existing version. The only way I see them nerfing the existing raids is if people keep insisting that there CAN’T be alternative versions of them. If there can only be one type of raid, then it can’t be the version we’ve got.

Oh, and I found a helpful video too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX8RuHII718

Why are you people actually still answering to those troll-posts?

Ohoni.6057:

I find it pretty dishonest to compare a raid which is a team effort and endgame content and a jumping puzzle that you can solo……

How is it “dishonest?” I mean, what about anything I said was inaccurate? You may not agree that it’s a fair comparison, but to be fair, I wasn’t comparing the two, I was just giving an example of a skill-based activity in which I’d once struggled, and showing how it wasn’t through failure that my skills improved, but rather through repeated successes.

Cool, easier stuff…and why? 99% of the game is faceroll content and would only be harder if you set your own difficulties like soloing some stuff (champs, fracs and more) or carrying 4 clueless pugs through instances.

Hey, people want it. You don’t have to understand why people want it, just accept that they do, that it would make their gaming experience better, just as I can’t understand why you would enjoy the current raids, but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be allowed to have them. It’s not your role to say “I don’t need this, so you have to prove to me why I would want if for you to be able to have it.” Nobody has to justify it to you in any way that would make it useful or important to you. You just have to accept that it would be useful and important to people other than yourself.

No, you need not, indeed. And nobody in this thread has ever said it’s a must to fail to become better, nobody followed “an idea of whatever”, dude.

>

You have to fail to become better.

I quoted it right there in my post. Somebody clearly said it.

I won’t go into detail about your suggestions in removing the timer or anything else. Please be informed and you will find out that it will absolutely make no sense to change it like you have described.

Like I said, it’s not my favorite solution to the difficulty problem, so I won’t go out of my way to defend it, I was just pointing out that removing the timers WOULD make a difference to players who are currently struggling with it.

Also have a look onto this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl_IUQuZuCg

I’d rather not watch a 40 minute raid video, but my assumption is that they played for like 30 minutes under the enrage phase? Is that something that you believe any low-skill group of players should be capable of doing? If not, how would that be at all useful here?

People trying to defend raid difficulty tend to whip out videos of expert players still managing to beat the bosses even after doing something ridiculously disadvantaging, but that proves nothing about how an inexpert group could perform the basic task of beating the boss. Just because an expert group can survive 30 minutes in the enrage state doesn’t mean that it is not a threat that an inexpert group has to deal with, and that they would have an easier time completing the boss if they didn’t have to worry about it.

People who cannot beat the raid encounters are just not playing well, that’s all.

Yes, and fair enough, not everyone is or ever will be a high skilled player, but they’d still like to play and clear the raid, even if they can’t play well. So assuming that their skills don’t improve significantly, what options would you suggest they regularly clear the raid anyway?

I apologize for the use of the word “dishonest”. What I really just meant, well you said it yourself, it is an unfair comparison. Simply because it is completely disproportionate. The “skill” people use to complete a JP in a starting area zone is not the same as the skill players need to have, to gain to complete a raid. You also don’t fail at dark reverie, complete other JPs and then happily come back at it to complete it because it holds some special value to the game. It is just as generic as other JP just like the only real threat to these JPs it to time your jumps accordingly or worst case of scenario, use the portal of a mesmer. Last of all you seem to forget that people do “git Gud” at any JP whatsoever by failing and restarting it many times. It is not because you don’t like it that every other players do the same as you don’t.

Mechanics and DPSing are not a seperate thing. They happen simulationsly and create the boss as a whole. Boss that does heavy aoe dmg but doesn’t have a timer is not much of a encounter, but add a time limit there, suddenly you have to optimize your setup, playstyle, targetting. The combination makes the encounter (and various other things).

You have to deal with Green circles and have the green team DPS during that, coming melee range inbetween. Using slowass necros and engis instead of 4 shortbow thiefs.
Gorse you have to drop single lava fonts on orbs instead of triple, you DPS boss while moving to the wall and you don’t send your druid, only PS and rev to do the snareing for loosing dps there as well. And you don’t preemtively throw people up on the cannons.

You are not doing the real boss mechanics if you are easying your way through them without caring about the timer or other parts of the boss.

Lendruil.9061:

Why are you people actually still answering to those troll-posts?

This.

It’s to bad there is no rating system for forum accounts. People could immediately spot the trolls and not bother with answering.

Some posters in this thread have a very long standing reputation of seeing things differently than most other people with a strong entitled and communist(we are beyond socialist here) touch.

The comments about having to fail being the only way to learn don’t make a whole lot of sense either as when groups advertise as training runs or on the forums as being available and willing to help people learn raids or their classes, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of interest.

I apologize for the use of the word “dishonest”. What I really just meant, well you said it yourself, it is an unfair comparison. Simply because it is completely disproportionate. The “skill” people use to complete a JP in a starting area zone is not the same as the skill players need to have, to gain to complete a raid.

True, but the point remains that it takes a certain level of individual skill, it is something that many people do poorly on at first, but the more confident they get at playing the game, the better they will do. My point on this as regards raiding, is that an easier mode, one that would allow success within the first few attempts, would still provide educational value, because it would allow players to become more comfortable with the mechanics in a lower stress environment. It was pushback to the idea that you “have” to fail in order to improve.

It is just as generic as other JP just like the only real threat to these JPs it to time your jumps accordingly or worst case of scenario, use the portal of a mesmer.

How are raids any different? You just time your dodges and certain skills accordingly or worst case scenario get carried by a particularly capable group.

Last of all you seem to forget that people do “git Gud” at any JP whatsoever by failing and restarting it many times.

And if people want to do that, then that’s fine. My point isn’t that they can’t, or that it doesn’t work, my point is that it isn’t the ONLY way to do it, and for some other options would be better.

flog.3485:

Last of all you seem to forget that people do “git Gud” at any JP whatsoever by failing and restarting it many times. It is not because you don’t like it that every other players do the same as you don’t.

No they don’t. In every case of progressive learning, the way someone can ‘git gud’ or ‘lean to play’ is by progressive practice, IE: you Start with Easy Jumping Puzzles, and work your way up progressively harder ones, as your skill and ability increase from practice. It’s been proven many times over to be one of the most ineffective means to learn anything to be put on a difficult challenge and fail time and time again.

Much in the say way you don’t learn to fly a plan by jumping in the kittenpit and giving it your all, and eventuality learn though enough crashes. You don’t learn to drive by being put on the interstate and learning by crashing. You take progressive steps, you start in easy, safe environments, where failing is not as punitive, and you work your way up to harder things, as skill and ability provide. Some people never obtain the skill to do air-to-air combat in a plane, even after thousands of hours flying. Just as many people have driven for 20 some odd years and still don’t have the skill to race in the Indy 500.

But regardless of that factor, progressive learning is the way to learn something like a JP, you don’t simply jump in and there is this magical effect where if you fail enough times you will win. There is no RNG to victory or learning a skill.

Much in the same way you don’t just try to jump into a conversation using a language you do not know, expecting that after you fail to speak it correctly enough times, you will figure it out. You start slow, learn a few words at a time, work someone who understands you are learning, and eventually you can string a sentence together, but that in no way means you will ever become fluent in that language, some people at best become ‘passingly decent’ or ‘good enough’ to be coherent when they speak it, but never fully fluent.

Regardless of what people think, You don’t learn to swim by jumping into the deep end of the pool.

Life and learning simply do not work way, why anyone falls under the illusion that games do, is beyond me.

STIHL.2489:

But regardless of that factor, progressive learning is the way to learn something like a JP, you don’t simply jump in and there is this magical effect where if you fail enough times you will win. There is no RNG to victory or learning a skill.

there is, it’s called practice

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

But regardless of that factor, progressive learning is the way to learn something like a JP, you don’t simply jump in and there is this magical effect where if you fail enough times you will win. There is no RNG to victory or learning a skill.

there is, it’s called practice

Nope, doing something wrong a millions times, won’t get you step close to doing it right. Proven fact of life.

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

But regardless of that factor, progressive learning is the way to learn something like a JP, you don’t simply jump in and there is this magical effect where if you fail enough times you will win. There is no RNG to victory or learning a skill.

there is, it’s called practice

Nope, doing something wrong a millions times, won’t get you step close to doing it right. Proven fact of life.

Well, that will only happen if people aren’t analysing what was causing the failures and just keep on repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Personally, I think all those wipes on raid bosses serve to make my group better as we learnt what we were doing wrong and slowly improve our methods/skills. In fact, I would say doing nothing would lead to nowhere at all. Proven fact of life

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

But regardless of that factor, progressive learning is the way to learn something like a JP, you don’t simply jump in and there is this magical effect where if you fail enough times you will win. There is no RNG to victory or learning a skill.

there is, it’s called practice

Nope, doing something wrong a millions times, won’t get you step close to doing it right. Proven fact of life.

You succeed by not failing in the same way each time and learning from each fail. If you consistently fail to the same thing then you are failing to learn.

Edit: thinking back, I shouldn’t have directed this thought at you.

Aceofsppades.6873:

STIHL.2489:

Nope, doing something wrong a millions times, won’t get you step close to doing it right. Proven fact of life.

You succeed by not failing in the same way each time and learning from each fail. If you consistently fail to the same thing then you are failing to learn.

Wildfang.3271:

Well, that will only happen if people aren’t analysing what was causing the failures and just keep on repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

You both seem like smart people, and I bet you have read many forums and thousands of posts, so I have to wonder, how did you both miss that I already addressed all this in the previous post.

Here it is again:

STIHL.2489:

flog.3485:

Last of all you seem to forget that people do “git Gud” at any JP whatsoever by failing and restarting it many times. It is not because you don’t like it that every other players do the same as you don’t.

No they don’t. In every case of progressive learning, the way someone can ‘git gud’ or ‘lean to play’ is by progressive practice, IE: you Start with Easy Jumping Puzzles, and work your way up progressively harder ones, as your skill and ability increase from practice. It’s been proven many times over to be one of the most ineffective means to learn anything to be put on a difficult challenge and fail time and time again.

Much in the say way you don’t learn to fly a plan by jumping in the kittenpit and giving it your all, and eventuality learn though enough crashes. You don’t learn to drive by being put on the interstate and learning by crashing. You take progressive steps, you start in easy, safe environments, where failing is not as punitive, and you work your way up to harder things, as skill and ability provide. Some people never obtain the skill to do air-to-air combat in a plane, even after thousands of hours flying. Just as many people have driven for 20 some odd years and still don’t have the skill to race in the Indy 500.

But regardless of that factor, progressive learning is the way to learn something like a JP, you don’t simply jump in and there is this magical effect where if you fail enough times you will win. There is no RNG to victory or learning a skill.

Much in the same way you don’t just try to jump into a conversation using a language you do not know, expecting that after you fail to speak it correctly enough times, you will figure it out. You start slow, learn a few words at a time, work someone who understands you are learning, and eventually you can string a sentence together, but that in no way means you will ever become fluent in that language, some people at best become ‘passingly decent’ or ‘good enough’ to be coherent when they speak it, but never fully fluent.

Regardless of what people think, You don’t learn to swim by jumping into the deep end of the pool.

Life and learning simply do not work way, why anyone falls under the illusion that games do, is beyond me.

People who are saying “you need to fail in order to learn” arent communicating what rrally shold be said. Failure doesn’t create learning, but learning will involve failures whether they have obvious results (a wipe) or subtle results (being carried). You succeed by fixing causes of previous failures and preventing potential future failures.

Really what I’m saying is you learn by identifying the causes of failures and correcting them.

I have got to ask, but right now, I am bit boggled, do any of you really go out and try to do something that requires some skill, lets use something safe, like juggle 5 balls, and just take those 5 balls, and keep tossing them, till you get it, without any progressive learning, like, starting at learning to toss and catch 1 ball, then 2, then 3, till you finally get to 5? Or do you just stick with doing those 5 balls, no progressive learning, failing until you master it?

Now that may seem silly, because as a species, almost everything anyone has been taught, has been progressive, they learn the basics, and then work their way up as their skill allows.

But do any of you really work top down with difficulty in real life?

If you do, then carry on, Kudos and Respect.

If you don’t.. why would you suggest that method as a means to learn in a game?

The problem with your analogy is that the raids are already contain progressive learning. If you think about the fights not as mechanics being added each next phase but as mechanics removed from each latter phase then you can see what I mean.

I have something else to direct at ohni. Creating a training mode without the enrage mechanics would be of limited help because it would create bad habits that the players would have to unlearn in order to do the actual raid, which lessens the benifite of a training mode. You can very easily see this in t3 fractals where people try starts that worked at lower levels but just do not fly at higher levels.

Failure doesn’t create learning, but learning will involve failures whether they have obvious results (a wipe) or subtle results (being carried). You succeed by fixing causes of previous failures and preventing potential future failures.

But there are degrees of failure. There is total failure, in that you wipe and have to restart the encounter, having earned nothing, and have to repeat this until eventually you can pass it. And then there is a minor failure, screwing up a few things but still ultimately completing the encounter and moving on to the next, repeating it later. Some insist that ONLY the latter can teach you anything, but my point is that many people do not learn that way, and learn better from the second way, succeeding almost every time, but succeeding better and better each time.

Think of it this way, there are people who have completed the first raid boss with only like 5-6 players, right? Now was that their first attempt at it, or did all of those players previously spend hours beating it playing with ten players, over and over, until they knew the mechanics so well that they could manage it with only a minimal team? So let’s say that the default intended difficulty, ten people in full ascended, would be a “10” in terms of difficulty, the players who handicap themselves with lower numbers or gearing might be scaling it up to a “15” in difficulty, and that’s cool if that’s what they enjoy. I’d like to see one scaled down to a “5” though, or at least like an “8,” and players who don’t feel comfortable with a 10 can do that one over and over until they’re comfortable with it, and then maybe run it at the original difficulty, just as the example party then chooses to run it with self-imposed limitations.

The problem with your analogy is that the raids are already contain progressive learning. If you think about the fights not as mechanics being added each next phase but as mechanics removed from each latter phase then you can see what I mean.

There certainly is some progression to it, but it does come pretty hard and fast. To use Stihl’s juggling analogy, it’s like they toss you three balls to juggle right away, and then a minute or so later toss you a 4th, then a 5th, and if you can’t juggle that 5th ball when it’s tossed to you, or any of the previous ones, then you fail completely.

Creating a training mode without the enrage mechanics would be of limited help because it would create bad habits that the players would have to unlearn in order to do the actual raid,

True, which is why it’s not my favored approach, but it would still help to teach things that would carry over. They would pick up bad habits, but also good ones.

STIHL.2489:

I have got to ask, but right now, I am bit boggled, do any of you really go out and try to do something that requires some skill, lets use something safe, like juggle 5 balls, and just take those 5 balls, and keep tossing them, till you get it, without any progressive learning, like, starting at learning to toss and catch 1 ball, then 2, then 3, till you finally get to 5? Or do you just stick with doing those 5 balls, no progressive learning, failing until you master it?

Now that may seem silly, because as a species, almost everything anyone has been taught, has been progressive, they learn the basics, and then work their way up as their skill allows.

But do any of you really work top down with difficulty in real life?

If you do, then carry on, Kudos and Respect.

If you don’t.. why would you suggest that method as a means to learn in a game?

this completely misses the mark, though, because you do learn progressively in gw2

first you do open world leveling
then you move into drytop/silverwastes/hot zones
then you move into fractals, maybe dungeons
then you move into raids

it’s not like you just get handed gw2 and anet says “OKAY BRO BEAT THE RAID” and there’s nowhere else to learn how to play

The game already has progressive learning. From tutorial where you learn the basics, you are then asked to apply what you have learnt in open world pve and personal story. After completing personal story, you can progress to do dungeons as well as fractals where you can learn your profession’s full potential such as DPS rotations and what utilities to bring for fights and trait setups. Even in raid wings themselves, there are progressive learning. Take VG for example. At first phase, you only have to learn to deal with seekers/blue circles and green circles while having a tank to direct his attacks from the group to reduce damage taken until you hit 66% of his health. if you can’t phase him, that would mean that your group either isn’t running green circles properly, getting killed by seekers or getting ported often by blue circles. In that case, that means your group will need to practise the core mechanics some more. only when you manage to get past the first phase are you being asked to deal with new mechanics for the next phase.

Ohoni.6057:

Failure doesn’t create learning, but learning will involve failures whether they have obvious results (a wipe) or subtle results (being carried). You succeed by fixing causes of previous failures and preventing potential future failures.

But there are degrees of failure. There is total failure, in that you wipe and have to restart the encounter, having earned nothing, and have to repeat this until eventually you can pass it. And then there is a minor failure, screwing up a few things but still ultimately completing the encounter and moving on to the next, repeating it later. Some insist that ONLY the latter (former) can teach you anything, but my point is that many people do not learn that way, and learn better from the second way, succeeding almost every time, but succeeding better and better each time.

I want to adress this in particular. You say a wipe is a total failure but the proper mindset to have is that a wipe at any one stage is a success at reaching that point. For example a wipe in phase 2 should be considered a success at completing phase 1. And I believe that cultivating a mindset like that is important to enjoying the raids.

It is also my personal belief that the latter of your ways creates an expectation of success without proper effort and overall harms ones enjoyment of the game.

first you do open world leveling
then you move into drytop/silverwastes/hot zones
then you move into fractals, maybe dungeons
then you move into raids

it’s not like you just get handed gw2 and anet says “OKAY BRO BEAT THE RAID” and there’s nowhere else to learn how to play

But I’ve already done all those things, completing all of them on the first night I attempted them, and yet, when I try to raid, I’ve yet to get past the first boss. Clearly there is a jump there.

I want to adress this in particular. You say a wipe is a total failure but the proper mindset to have is that a wipe at any one stage is a success at reaching that point.

And if that’s true for you, then that’s great, but understand that many people do not view it that way, and would be unsatisfied with less than a total success. I mean, you can view a PvP match-up in which you managed to hold one point for the entire match but the team still lost as something of a “success,” but most players would still be frustrated at losing the pip.

And I believe that cultivating a mindset like that is important to enjoying the raids.

Which is why a lot of people do not enjoy the raids in their current form, because that mindset is incompatible with their minds.

It is also my personal belief that the latter of your ways creates an expectation of success without proper effort and overall harms ones enjoyment of the game.

Again, totally depends on what you enjoy doing and how you enjoy doing it. Each person’s “proper effort” is different.

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

I have got to ask, but right now, I am bit boggled, do any of you really go out and try to do something that requires some skill, lets use something safe, like juggle 5 balls, and just take those 5 balls, and keep tossing them, till you get it, without any progressive learning, like, starting at learning to toss and catch 1 ball, then 2, then 3, till you finally get to 5? Or do you just stick with doing those 5 balls, no progressive learning, failing until you master it?

Now that may seem silly, because as a species, almost everything anyone has been taught, has been progressive, they learn the basics, and then work their way up as their skill allows.

But do any of you really work top down with difficulty in real life?

If you do, then carry on, Kudos and Respect.

If you don’t.. why would you suggest that method as a means to learn in a game?

this completely misses the mark, though, because you do learn progressively in gw2

first you do open world leveling
then you move into drytop/silverwastes/hot zones
then you move into fractals, maybe dungeons
then you move into raids

it’s not like you just get handed gw2 and anet says “OKAY BRO BEAT THE RAID” and there’s nowhere else to learn how to play

But it does, exactly that.

• Open world is Tiered from Levels 1 – 80, so you can learn and progress as your own pace.
• Dungeons have Story modes, and come in varying levels of difficulty.
• Fractals, pretty straight up, 1 to 100.

But raids, don’t have any build up to them, no progression, there is no “Level 1 to 10” on raids where you have a ladder you can climb and ‘learn to play’ which is available in all other content.

It is quite literally: “OKAY BRO BEAT THE RAID” and there’s nowhere else to learn how to play

STIHL.2489:

But it does, exactly that.

• Open world is Tiered from Levels 1 – 80, so you can learn and progress as your own pace.
• Dungeons have Story modes, and come in varying levels of difficulty.
• Fractals, pretty straight up, 1 to 100.

But raids, don’t have any build up to them, no progression, there is no “Level 1 to 10” on raids where you have a ladder you can climb and ‘learn to play’ which is available in all other content.

It is quite literally: “OKAY BRO BEAT THE RAID” and there’s nowhere else to learn how to play

you’re missing the point
also implying that there isn’t difficulty progression within and across raids when there is

Ohoni.6057:

cut because formating on mobile is a kitten.

I will say that if a player cant gain satisfaction from improvment, getting closer to downing a boss after successive attempts, then I’m inclined to belive that that player doesn’t enjoy challenging content. And I don’t see a point in trying to creat training modes for people who don’t enjoy the content.

Also your analogy is missing some context that I admittidly left out. For the small successes I intended for it to come across as a marked improvment over previous attempts. My bad.

So you pvp analogy would be holding one point all game if in the previous 3 games they had held no points for basically all the game.

On your frustration bit you can be both frustrated with a lack of progress and simultaneously enjoy current progress.

I will say that if a player cant gain satisfaction from improvment, getting closer to downing a boss after successive attempts, then I’m inclined to belive that that player doesn’t enjoy challenging content.

Yes, definitely.

And I don’t see a point in trying to creat training modes for people who don’t enjoy the content.

Because those players enjoy training modes, or at least, they do if the mode itself is fun and rewarding enough to make it enjoyable.

Also your analogy is missing some context that I admittidly left out. For the small successes I intended for it to come across as a marked improvment over previous attempts. My bad.

Yeah, not relevant. I could die in the first of three waves on a boss the first try, and then die on the third wave the second try, and while I would be slightly happy about that, I would also be more upset that I still lost the attempt and would have to redo it. Different people might have a different experience, but they are different people.

So you pvp analogy would be holding one point all game if in the previous 3 games they had held no points for basically all the game.

Yeah, that would make it even worse.

On your frustration bit you can be both frustrated with a lack of progress and simultaneously enjoy current progress.

Perhaps you would, but to me it’s still a net-negative, and I would prefer to pursue net-positive experiences.

Same argument, same cast of characters.

Let’s put aside that the original topic, getting rid of enrage timers, has already been addressed. The general consensus is that the timer is generally not the limiting factor for most groups.

So we’re back to easy mode raids, and endless quote sniping.

Apologies for sounding dismissive, but we’ve had this argument several times over. The easy mode raiders can’t stand that a small portion of the game is hard. Despite that there is plenty of easy and medium tier content — open world, world bosses, map events, dungeons, fractals.

Still really haven’t heard a coherent argument against this. All I get is “I must be able to do all the content at my skill level.”

This thread has run its course. Sign me up for locking it.

At some point, probably when hardly anyone does them anymore, the oldest raids will get nerfed to the point where they are completely puggable. Every MMO does it, and I don’t expect gw2 will be any different. It is just such an easy way to open up more content for casual players.