Guild Wars 2

LegACy.1296:

All right, thanks for the info. I think this settles one thing regarding ANet’s direction…

For the foreseeable future, even if there’s an easier mode for raid, player will NOT be able to get Legendary armor from that mode. (note: this is ANet’s current consideration/plan/design, not mine)

A short summary of how I get to that conclusion:

Basically anet see “clear the raid” as the requirement for getting legendary armor, NOT “grind the raid”. If Anet saw “grind the raid” as the requirement, if they make easier mode, they can simply make it so the requirement is either “grind the normal raid” OR “grind the easier raid longer”. But since the requirement is “clearing”, even if there’s an easier mode, the requirement can only be “clear the normal raid”, since there’s no equivalent of that requirement on easy mode.

What prevents them choosing “clear hard raid” or “Grind easy raid,” exactly? Easy mode is theoretical at best, but the way they assign rewards need not be the same.

Sarrs.4831:

Swagger.1459:

Anet is now starting to be mindful of the over grind they have created and we will just have to wait to see where it all goes with collections and Legendary Insights.

“Over grind” seems a bit silly considering it’s a set of gear which you can swap to any stat, including future sets.

The first half of the sentence I spoke in general terms. If you are aware of things then you know anet is now being more mindful toward the casual experience this game was built on.

There have been a number of valid complaints about the grind, gates and time investment needed to progress and to achieve certain things, so the devs have mentioned reducing the “tedium” and being more aware of time investments needed. Pretty sure they will do a “tedium and time” check in all parts of the game, and this would apply to collections and crafting. Also, now that there has been such a backlash on the legendary weapon front, I’m sure all legendary systems will get a review and we will see weapons reintroduced and better paths to legendary weapons and armor as well.

Ohoni.6057:

We know how big the jar is, and we know it contains jellybeans, because, to break the analogy, it’s a game, so it obviously doesn’t contain car parts, it contains bits of a game. The jar is:
-Take The existing raid wing.
-Copy and paste it.
-Use the existing “which raid wing do you want to enter” UI to allow choice between -Spirit Vale (hard) and Spirit Vale (easy).
-Take that second one, and tweak it down a bit. Reduce boss HP by 5-10%, reduce the damage of certain “highly likely to down you” attacks by around 20% or so.
-Remove enemy skill affixes like “automatically defeats you” and replace them with “automatically downs you” or just “deals unblockable damage sufficient to down most basic builds”, perhaps reduce certain attacks from “unlimited targets” to “five targets,” allowing them to down half the party while allowing the other half to get them back up. None of these effects would be new, they could all be borrowed from existing attacks, and should be in the GW2 toolkit. Changing them should be as simple as selecting them from a drop-down menu in their toolkit, or at most deleting and retyping a reference to where that move is stored in the existing code. It’s like removing one lego brick and replacing it with another.

Gaile Gray.6029:

At this point, I need to interject. I am familiar with the process of changing to a multi-modality system of game presentation, having written about it long ago, when I was a journalist writing about another company and another game. For that game, too, players said “No big deal.” And they were absolutely wrong. They said, “Just tweak a few stats, lower a few spawns, and voila, you’ve got it!” No, that’s not how it worked.

You have absolutely no idea how things work/are set up in the game; you can ramble on with changelists or “simple ways to do it” but you have no idea if they apply in the slightest. At the end of the day, you’re just pulling guesses out of thin air and for some reason you’re assuming they’re correct.

Astralporing.1957:

That’s only what you think. Because you like raids.

No. Completing more difficult content will always be more impressive- and more difficult- then slogging through easy content for a couple weeks longer.

Were you reading Ohoni’s post, or their strawman representation by other posters? Because it seems the latter.

Have you read his posts? Because that’s exactly what I’m going off of.

Ah, but we have considerably more than zero informations. We, for example, know that one wing takes around 4 months to make, and most of that is creating assets. Yes, those assets that the easy mode would not need to create. Most of the remaining work wouldn’t need to be created from scratch either.

Except we have no idea how things are coded/configured in the raid. Who knows, making their easy mode could easily require recreating the entire thing from scratch.

[/quote]Sure, it wouldn’t take hours, like Ohoni claims, but saying that it would take many months is an even more ridiculous claim.[/quote]

Except, based on the information we have, they’re both completely equally valid numbers. They’re equally ridiculous claims because neither of them are backed up by any real information or facts.

Ohoni.6057:

They didn’t tell you that they were looking into it like Gaile did earlier.

Which means… nothing? What Gaile actually said was:

[/quote]I will ask about this, and if we’re prepared to say something official, one of us will do so.[/quote]

So if they want to share they’re tell us something. Exactly like they always do. Just because they haven’t said anything doesn’t give any information about your made up numbers.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make, you’re just making “I know you are but what am I” sort of arguments that don’t actually make any sense.

The point is, your numbers are completely unfounded and trying to use them in any sort of argument is useless since they have no proof to back them up. However, if you keep insisting that your made up numbers are for some reason valid,

Not to mention the fact that Gaile also said:

But it’s counterproductive to have a discussion head down the path of misinformation and what seems to be a growing error in assumption. With all due respect, unless you’re a developer for GW2 you are not qualified to make a statement about the time needed, difficulty involved, or feasibility of such a feature.

Yet you still continue to guess and make up random numbers, then you start pretending that they’re 100% perfectly correct.

Fermi.2409:

Ah, but we have considerably more than zero informations. We, for example, know that one wing takes around 4 months to make, and most of that is creating assets. Yes, those assets that the easy mode would not need to create. Most of the remaining work wouldn’t need to be created from scratch either.

Except we have no idea how things are coded/configured in the raid. Who knows, making their easy mode could easily require recreating the entire thing from scratch.

They have been reusing assets before, both directly or with modifications, and there were some streams on, say, creature development process, so we know that no, they don’t need to recreate assets from scratch, they can reuse them.

Fermi.2409:

Sure, it wouldn’t take hours, like Ohoni claims, but saying that it would take many months is an even more ridiculous claim.

Except, based on the information we have, they’re both completely equally valid numbers. They’re equally ridiculous claims because neither of them are backed up by any real information or facts.

Ohoni is certainly underestimating work required, and by a wide margin, but at least he remains within bounds of the knowledge we have. The other estimate assumes things we know to be untrue.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Anet Faerla

Xdeadzx
More directed towards the raid team, what finally changed design wise to give us a DPS golem? After so long of obscurity, why now?

With the introduction of raiding, we re-approached the topic in an effort to provide tools that individuals and groups can use to become more deeply engaged in our PvE. The Aerodrome provided us the moment to build that tool. It was more a matter of opportunity and timing than it was design-philosophy shift.

---

PaulElla
Q. Is there any way we can get food buffs and wrench buffs added to the list of customizations in the DPS testing area? They could go away when leaving the area.
A. The issue here was one of scope and the hundreds of food items in the game currently. We wanted to focus on giving you the best experience we could in the time available and so food / utilities was moved to the backlog. We will continue to review the backlog to see where this would best fit and ensure we have bandwidth to accommodate it properly.

Q. If possible to share, what is the intention for raids beyond wing 3? Should we expect more things this year or will the next raid wing only come with expansion #2?
A. Sorry – at this time I cannot comment on the next raid wings. Spoilers!
Are any changes planned to make Bandit Trio less random and more exciting?
Have you tried it without using the environmental buffs? (oil, bees, Wargs). We even gave it an achievement!

---

ANet PaulaElla

RisingDusk
No problem on the backlog; I understand software development triage is a real thing! Hopefully those can be added at some point, though, as that’s really among the last things needed to get a perfect representation of one’s personal DPS! (Super amazing implementation, by the way; everyone loves it so far!)
I’ve done the achievement without the environmental effects, but the issue is that there’s no reward motivation to do it more than once.
Is there any plan for this “hard mode” to give enhanced rewards in the future to ameliorate that?
Also, the Tres Banditos (particularly Narella) have very uncontrollable aggro. Sometimes Narella will shoot phantasms and allow the raid group to freely attack her, and then some other times she’ll shoot anyone in melee and really drop the hammer! Are there any plans to make her in particular a little more controllable, or is the uncontrollable chaos intended in the encounter?

We are actively discussing an alternative mode for raids (easy / hard), but we have not finished our investigations or finalized any decisions.

I will ask the designer to look into Narella’s behavior and see if anything seems out of line.

(I spoke to the designer – he said the chaos is ans intended part of the fight mechanics and you should ‘burn’ her down as fast as possible!)

Update notice:
By the last AMA, seems that they are at least considering the option.

I am fine with Anet considering the idea of easy mode raids…But if they ever find a good balance for implementing it, people should not be able to craft a legendary armor or complete the collections tied to raids by running easy mode

Miellyn.6847:

Or you could just accept ArenaNet’s stance on legendary armor.

A week ago people were telling me to accept Anet’s stance on easy mode raids.
Stances change.

And I thought the other thread closing would be the end of that.

secret twist ending: the current raids are the easy modes

Sarrs.4831:

And I thought the other thread closing would be the end of that.

secret twist ending: the current raids are the easy modes

Couldn’t agree more, what anet should do is create a more difficult mode for the raid, and then the one we have now would be the easy mode!
Everyone wins!

Sarrs.4831:

And I thought the other thread closing would be the end of that.

Except that for whatever reason, it was re-opened.

Take that for what you will.

Ohoni.6057:

nothing

PvP or WvW, there is no alternate PvE Version of the fractal backpiece

No deal, try again.

You can get the legendary armor by farming anything in PvE. Literally anything. All you have to do is buy the raids from other people if you don’t want to do the raiding part yourself.

It’s a little disappointing that Narella is intended to be such a frustrating (not hard, frustrating) encounter. The first two bosses being trivially easy and the last boss randomly chaotic just fuels my dislike for the encounter.

Just remember that even if they’re considering an easy mode raid, they’re not going to trivialize the rewards of the standard mode. I would be very surprised if you could earn Magnetite Shards at the same rate or Legendary Armor components in an easy mode if it is ever implemented. Also keep in mind that if such a mode does come to pass, it won’t drop sooner than the Summer seasonal patch in ~3 months. Lastly, don’t forget that they said that the focus of the next seasonal patch would be new content, not revamped systems, so I’m not sure when an easy mode patch would surface.

Anyway, I’m glad that my questions were answered during the AMA, and I’ll continue sending everyone’s thoughts to the raid / fractals teams as we move forward. (Even those I personally disagree with!)

Making the content more accessible to a wider range of players would be a very good move on their part. It would allow them to deliver the GW2 narrative in more ways and would justify focused development time better. It would also help bring people together more and probably start generating greater player interest in the harder tier raids, as beginner raiders would have a ladder to climb and prepare them for greater and greater challenges. To that same point, it would also allow them to get a little more brutal with top tier raid design and design fights with a much smaller margin of error.

As far as rewards, I think that legendary equipment (of any kind) should be very difficult to obtain. Otherwise, it isn’t really legendary. I would have no problem with lower tier raiding offering significantly reduced shards and typical event box style rewards.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Also keep in mind that if such a mode does come to pass, it won’t drop sooner than the Summer seasonal patch in ~3 months. Lastly, don’t forget that they said that the focus of the next seasonal patch would be new content, not revamped systems, so I’m not sure when an easy mode patch would surface.

I would personally expect them to be not touching the current raid with an easy mode and instead possibly targeting the next raid’s wings.

@Ohoni I might have said I am fine if they ever considered developing easy-mode but in my perfect world I would rather have Anet not even been considering this idea. Like people have stated in this thread, respect Anet stance on legendary armor, and like gayle have said in this particular now closed thread, dont’t underestimate the resources, costs and technical implementations of such changes. Furthermore I also think it is no good to split the playerbase even more. What they need to focus on imo, is LS3, living world events and fractals

I didn’t even know they were considering this. I’ve never done any part of the raid because most of my characters don’t have ascended stuff yet. I’d be for easier settings to increase access to more people. It wouldn’t split the players at all I’d imagine since people who can run it now wouldn’t have any reason to do easy. And people who can’t could try easy.

I’d just hope they’d do it by maybe changing hp or armor on enemies and/or increasing time limits. If they remove mechanics it wouldn’t serve to help new people learn the place and wouldn’t serve much purpose. And as someone who would like to get into the raid I’d be cool with them gating rewards so you couldn’t get them in easy.

Also it’d be nice to think I could get some of the 4 stat jewelry before I tried the normal mode raid (vipers or commanders trinkets).

XDeathShadowX.2619:

I’ve never done any part of the raid because most of my characters don’t have ascended stuff yet.

If that’s what’s holding you back, it’s really not a huge deal. If you’re properly geared in exotics you’ll be fine.

Ohoni.6057:

Or you could just accept ArenaNet’s stance on legendary armor. It isn’t even a QoL upgrade except for druids. Multiple sets of ascended armor are cheaper and easier to get for the same purpose.

And no there will never be a higher tier then ascended.
Legendary has the stats equivalent to the highest tier/lvl.
After the third raid wing only accessories can’t be obtained as legendaries and adding a new tier just to see it ignored in favor of legendary items makes it pointless to even consider it.

Not relevant, try again.

How is that not relevant? Legendary isn’t any sort of requirement for playing the game. Why does ANet have to make it possible for everyone to acquire it? It’s nice that legendaries are so easy, but I think it’s also nice if there are some things that require certain player abilities and perseverance, too.

Mind you, in some ways it’s a weird choice by ANet: they spend oodles of time designing & implementing skins with unique effects and then they limit acquisition to just one limited game mode. But it’s their game and their choice.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Mind you, in some ways it’s a weird choice by ANet: they spend oodles of time designing & implementing skins with unique effects and then they limit acquisition to just one limited game mode. But it’s their game and their choice.

If they were bland, easy to design skins with no effects, then they wouldn’t encourage anyone to do anything.

My suggestion thread, that Gaile commented in, was never closed. Some of you have it confused with a different thread by a different poster.

Anet doesn’t want to alienate any players in any part of the game.

The devs are more than capable of creating some types of difficulty settings and still deliver content. It’s not like they would have to rework every piece of the raid to make it happen. Just look at the dps testing area with the boon settings… I suggested a possible boon/debuff tool to help deliver difficulty settings, and it looks like we can something like that now. Also, I don’t think it would be tremendously difficult to have adjustable timers either… Having those two alone wold open the door to more players and provide even greater challenge to seasoned raiders.

Players should be rewarded for participating in any content, and different levels of rewards can be given to match easy, normal and hard difficulty settings. Legendary armor is a longer term goal and should be obtainable by any player participating in raids.

Nobody loses due to difficulty settings, it becomes a net (pun intended) gain for all parties involved.

Swagger.1459:

My suggestion thread, that Gaile commented in, was never closed. Some of you have it confused with a different thread by a different poster.

Anet doesn’t want to alienate any players in any part of the game.

The devs are more than capable of creating some types of difficulty settings and still deliver content. It’s not like they would have to rework every piece of the raid to make it happen. Just look at the dps testing area with the boon settings… I suggested a possible boon/debuff tool to help deliver difficulty settings, and it looks like we can something like that now. Also, I don’t think it would be tremendously difficult to have adjustable timers either… Having those two alone wold open the door to more players and provide even greater challenge to seasoned raiders.

Players should be rewarded for participating in any content, and different levels of rewards can be given to match easy, normal and hard difficulty settings. Legendary armor is a longer term goal and should be obtainable by any player participating in raids.

Nobody loses due to difficulty settings, it becomes a net (pun intended) gain for all parties involved.

It becomes a huge loss for me if legendary armor is acquirable in easy mode raids. As I’ve said many times before, I’m completely fine with easy mode raids IF legendary armor is not possible to get from them. If legendary gear was obtainable through them it would severely diminish the value of the reward I was promised. Not to mention I would be forced to sell raid bosses for less gold. (Although I also have my doubts it is actually worth anets time to do this as only a few people actually seem to want them and would play them).

So don’t say that its not a loss for anyone, IT IS, because legendary armor becomes less prestigious objectively, there’s no way to argue that it doesn’t.

randomguy.1283:

Swagger.1459:

My suggestion thread, that Gaile commented in, was never closed. Some of you have it confused with a different thread by a different poster.

Anet doesn’t want to alienate any players in any part of the game.

The devs are more than capable of creating some types of difficulty settings and still deliver content. It’s not like they would have to rework every piece of the raid to make it happen. Just look at the dps testing area with the boon settings… I suggested a possible boon/debuff tool to help deliver difficulty settings, and it looks like we can something like that now. Also, I don’t think it would be tremendously difficult to have adjustable timers either… Having those two alone wold open the door to more players and provide even greater challenge to seasoned raiders.

Players should be rewarded for participating in any content, and different levels of rewards can be given to match easy, normal and hard difficulty settings. Legendary armor is a longer term goal and should be obtainable by any player participating in raids.

Nobody loses due to difficulty settings, it becomes a net (pun intended) gain for all parties involved.

It becomes a huge loss for me if legendary armor is acquirable in easy mode raids. As I’ve said many times before, I’m completely fine with easy mode raids IF legendary armor is not possible to get from them. If legendary gear was obtainable through them it would severely diminish the value of the reward I was promised. Not to mention I would be forced to sell raid bosses for less gold. (Although I also have my doubts it is actually worth anets time to do this as only a few people actually seem to want them and would play them).

There is the problem… “reward I was promised”… It’s not an “I” thing, it’s a “do raid for legendary” thing. Players doing it in any mode will still have to “work” for it by gearing up and playing. It’s not a case of walking into the raid and being handed your armor.

Players will still use your good service and pay for runs.

Of course it’s worth their time to build up the raid community.

Swagger.1459:

randomguy.1283:

Swagger.1459:

My suggestion thread, that Gaile commented in, was never closed. Some of you have it confused with a different thread by a different poster.

Anet doesn’t want to alienate any players in any part of the game.

The devs are more than capable of creating some types of difficulty settings and still deliver content. It’s not like they would have to rework every piece of the raid to make it happen. Just look at the dps testing area with the boon settings… I suggested a possible boon/debuff tool to help deliver difficulty settings, and it looks like we can something like that now. Also, I don’t think it would be tremendously difficult to have adjustable timers either… Having those two alone wold open the door to more players and provide even greater challenge to seasoned raiders.

Players should be rewarded for participating in any content, and different levels of rewards can be given to match easy, normal and hard difficulty settings. Legendary armor is a longer term goal and should be obtainable by any player participating in raids.

Nobody loses due to difficulty settings, it becomes a net (pun intended) gain for all parties involved.

It becomes a huge loss for me if legendary armor is acquirable in easy mode raids. As I’ve said many times before, I’m completely fine with easy mode raids IF legendary armor is not possible to get from them. If legendary gear was obtainable through them it would severely diminish the value of the reward I was promised. Not to mention I would be forced to sell raid bosses for less gold. (Although I also have my doubts it is actually worth anets time to do this as only a few people actually seem to want them and would play them).

There is the problem… “reward I was promised”… It’s not an “I” thing, it’s a “do raid for legendary” thing. Players doing it in any mode will still have to “work” for it by gearing up and playing. It’s not a case of walking into the raid and being handed your armor.

Players will still use your good service and pay for runs.

Of course it’s worth their time to build up the raid community.

My point is that my reward will be objectively worth less under you plan than it would otherwise be.

Swagger.1459:

Players doing it in any mode will still have to “work” for it by gearing up and playing. It’s not a case of walking into the raid and being handed your armor.

But they won’t. If there’s a mode tuned lower than the current raids, they won’t need to gear up as much as they do to tackle the current ‘hard’ mode. If the fights take less time to learn, they will spend less time playing.

TexZero.7910:

Sarrs.4831:

And I thought the other thread closing would be the end of that.

Except that for whatever reason, it was re-opened.

Take that for what you will.

The other thread is still closed.

Sarrs.4831:

But they won’t. If there’s a mode tuned lower than the current raids, they won’t need to gear up as much as they do to tackle the current ‘hard’ mode. If the fights take less time to learn, they will spend less time playing.

It might require more runs to get to the same point, in which case they’d spend more time playing. Also, you completely ignore the possibility that they might not play current raids at all, in which case, again, thanks to easy mode they would spend more time playing.

As expected, the easy-mode raid topic instantly got derailed into a legendary armor debate. I think they’d be much better off introducing a way in open world to get it then spend resources on something casual players don’t even care about. Only the shinies matter anyway.

cranos.5913:

As expected, the easy-mode raid topic instantly got derailed into a legendary armor debate. I think they’d be much better off introducing a way in open world to get it then spend resources on something casual players don’t even care about. Only the shinies matter anyway.

Which as I pointed out, is completely doable since you can pay raiders to get everything needed for leg armor.

randomguy.1283:

cranos.5913:

As expected, the easy-mode raid topic instantly got derailed into a legendary armor debate. I think they’d be much better off introducing a way in open world to get it then spend resources on something casual players don’t even care about. Only the shinies matter anyway.

Which as I pointed out, is completely doable since you can pay raiders to get everything needed for leg armor.

To be honest, with the need for legendary insights it becomes less feasible to do this since even something low like 50 insights over 50 weeks of VG would run up quite a large tab (and lets be honest it will almost definitely need more).

That said I am fine with the inclusion of easy-mode raids if it is implemented in a smart way with rewards that can keep both modes alive. I also wouldn’t mind giving easy-mode raiders legendary armor if they were given a less visually impressive armor (but same stats/stat swap), which could then be upgraded through normal mode.

Astralporing.1957:

Also, you completely ignore the possibility that they might not play current raids at all

because making raid content for people who aren’t raiders is dumb

Swagger.1459:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Anet Faerla

Xdeadzx
More directed towards the raid team, what finally changed design wise to give us a DPS golem? After so long of obscurity, why now?

With the introduction of raiding, we re-approached the topic in an effort to provide tools that individuals and groups can use to become more deeply engaged in our PvE. The Aerodrome provided us the moment to build that tool. It was more a matter of opportunity and timing than it was design-philosophy shift.

---

PaulElla
Q. Is there any way we can get food buffs and wrench buffs added to the list of customizations in the DPS testing area? They could go away when leaving the area.
A. The issue here was one of scope and the hundreds of food items in the game currently. We wanted to focus on giving you the best experience we could in the time available and so food / utilities was moved to the backlog. We will continue to review the backlog to see where this would best fit and ensure we have bandwidth to accommodate it properly.

Q. If possible to share, what is the intention for raids beyond wing 3? Should we expect more things this year or will the next raid wing only come with expansion #2?
A. Sorry – at this time I cannot comment on the next raid wings. Spoilers!
Are any changes planned to make Bandit Trio less random and more exciting?
Have you tried it without using the environmental buffs? (oil, bees, Wargs). We even gave it an achievement!

---

ANet PaulaElla

RisingDusk
No problem on the backlog; I understand software development triage is a real thing! Hopefully those can be added at some point, though, as that’s really among the last things needed to get a perfect representation of one’s personal DPS! (Super amazing implementation, by the way; everyone loves it so far!)
I’ve done the achievement without the environmental effects, but the issue is that there’s no reward motivation to do it more than once.
Is there any plan for this “hard mode” to give enhanced rewards in the future to ameliorate that?
Also, the Tres Banditos (particularly Narella) have very uncontrollable aggro. Sometimes Narella will shoot phantasms and allow the raid group to freely attack her, and then some other times she’ll shoot anyone in melee and really drop the hammer! Are there any plans to make her in particular a little more controllable, or is the uncontrollable chaos intended in the encounter?

We are actively discussing an alternative mode for raids (easy / hard), but we have not finished our investigations or finalized any decisions.

I will ask the designer to look into Narella’s behavior and see if anything seems out of line.

(I spoke to the designer – he said the chaos is ans intended part of the fight mechanics and you should ‘burn’ her down as fast as possible!)

Fascinating thoughts. I’ll say here what I said on the other Topics of ilk.

“We shall see”

You can get the legendary armor by farming anything in PvE. Literally anything. All you have to do is buy the raids from other people if you don’t want to do the raiding part yourself.

No, buying raids from other players is a toxic compromise, do better.

I would be very surprised if you could earn Magnetite Shards at the same rate or Legendary Armor components in an easy mode if it is ever implemented.

Nobody expects to earn rewards at the same rate, it should obviously take longer/more effort to earn the rewards via easy mode, but it should provide a path, one that will, in a reasonable amount of time, lead to those same rewards. There should be no significant rewards permanently out of bounds without running the hard mode version.

I would personally expect them to be not touching the current raid with an easy mode and instead possibly targeting the next raid’s wings.

If they’re going to be making easy modes for the next raid, there’s no reason for them to not revisit the existing wings as well. It would be significantly less work than the reworking they did for yesterday’s patch.

How is that not relevant? Legendary isn’t any sort of requirement for playing the game. Why does ANet have to make it possible for everyone to acquire it? It’s nice that legendaries are so easy, but I think it’s also nice if there are some things that require certain player abilities and perseverance, too.

whether you believe that having Legendary armor is important is not relevant to whether someone else believes it is important to them. If you say that having Legendary armor is not important to you, then that is a fair point, for you. But if someone else says that Legendary armor is important to them, then their position trumps yours in regards to whether they should have it.

but I think it’s also nice if there are some things that require certain player abilities and perseverance, too.

I think you’re listing two completely different things. Perseverance is good. It should take perseverance, for ALL players. Nobody is saying they should just hand them out like candy. But there should be reasonable paths to them for ALL players of ALL skill levels. Players with more skill can take the shorter path to the goal, but players with lower skill should have their own slower paths to the goal as well.

My point is that my reward will be objectively worth less under you plan than it would otherwise be.

No, it would be objectively worth the exact same amount. It might be subjectively worth less, but that’s your problem.

If the fights take less time to learn, they will spend less time playing.

But if it requires more individual playthroughs than hard mode, which everyone assumes will be the case, then they will spend MORE time playing, not less.

because making raid content for people who aren’t raiders is dumb

Why? If it’s content they will enjoy, what is the problem in adding it?

I am all for making content accessible to as many people as possible.
However this is contingent on the method of implementation not having severe adverse effects on the content.
When it comes to easy modes for content like raids, it’ll ruin it. By adding an easy mode, you fragment your community, and you lessen enthusiasm towards and investment in the content. Exactly this has happened in many other MMOs.
Many people gravitate towards the easy options when given the choice. And once the content has been completed, which will be done very quickly and with little replayability in an easy mode, the player is less likely to continue on to repeat it on a harder mode.

Effectively, you’d be creating an easy mode so that none raiders, people who aren’t interested enough to put effort in the first place, can coast through it once or twice. And the trade off for that is that you kill off a large swathe of your actual raiding community.
From a strictly game-design perspective, I think multiple difficulties is a great thing. But this is an MMO, and you also have to consider the social implications it’ll have on the community.

Your prestige for the legendary armor is invalidated in the moment a guy with two left hands but a full wallet buys the raids to lay his hands on it. And even if that is of no concern for you, the armor is bound to become more common over time in any way, so staying hardcore can only buy you some time.

I agree when people say that I would run through it on easy mode until I have the armor and seen the story and then never touch it again until the next raid appears and I run it once to see its story. Compared to now, where I never enter it and don´t do it. In summary, people like me would win and hardcore raiders would loose some recruitment as they would have to impress people by being friendly, supportive, patient and welcoming instead of relying on bling-bling to get them.

Sounds like win-win for me.

“it would be objectively worth the exact same amount”

This is COMPLETELY wrong and the fact that you don’t understand why means you need to read an economics textbook. They would be objectively worth less amount because a person would be willing to pay considerably less of real world money to get it, wether thats in the form of gems to gold or against the terms of service gold buying, it doesn’t matter. Either way, the actual real worth of the legendary armor WILL go down OBJECTIVELY no matter how many times you insist it will not.

“buying raids from other players is a toxic compromise, do better.”

Buying raids benefits both parties, it is the exact opposite of a toxic compromise. I really feel like a better understanding of economics will help you out here, this isn’t mean to be an insult, I really think it would provide better understanding of why being able to sell raids is a GOOD thing.

“But there should be reasonable paths to them for ALL players of ALL skill levels. "

No, there shouldn’t be a reasonable path for them, but I’ll admit this one isn’t an objective reason, that’s just my opinion.

randomguy.1283:

“it would be objectively worth the exact same amount”

This is COMPLETELY wrong and the fact that you don’t understand why means you need to read an economics textbook. They would be objectively worth less amount because a person would be willing to pay considerably less of real world money to get it, wether thats in the form of gems to gold or against the terms of service gold buying, it doesn’t matter. Either way, the actual real worth of the legendary armor WILL go down OBJECTIVELY no matter how many times you insist it will not.

“buying raids from other players is a toxic compromise, do better.”

Buying raids benefits both parties, it is the exact opposite of a toxic compromise. I really feel like a better understanding of economics will help you out here, this isn’t mean to be an insult, I really think it would provide better understanding of why being able to sell raids is a GOOD thing.

“But there should be reasonable paths to them for ALL players of ALL skill levels. "

No, there shouldn’t be a reasonable path for them, but I’ll admit this one isn’t an objective reason, that’s just my opinion.

Neither you or me know the break-even-point of a service like raid selling, a large number of people who buy it for less than what you seem worth it could take out more money of the economy han a little number of people paying a huge sum.
Lets take a look at real economy here:
Volkswagen produces large numbers of VW Polos and only a limited number of Audi A3s through the “daughter” company Audi. A bare VW polo costs around 20K Euro, a A3 costs 35K Euro. As a matter of fact, the Audi was, is and probably always will be a dwarf compared to Volkswagens Polo in terms of selling, despite the later being a sturdy but inferior design to the first because more common people can afford them.

The market for exclusivity is of course there, and it is aslo substantial. But money is made with the common man. Even the extremely conservative european economists urge the governments and companies to return to services for the common man and better payment because it is just more sutstainable than selling the Kardashians a Maybach once per month.

When it comes to easy modes for content like raids, it’ll ruin it. By adding an easy mode, you fragment your community, and you lessen enthusiasm towards and investment in the content. Exactly this has happened in many other MMOs.

I don’t accept this argument. I do not think it will “fragment” the community in any negative way. It will merely add new people to the raid community who are not currently participating at all. This is not fracturing, this is adding.

Now, are there some people who currently play hard mode that would prefer to play easy mode and would do so if the option were available? Probably. But that’s a GOOD THING, because those players would be having more fun, and that’s good, even if it does make it a little harder for you to find a group. Those players do not exist to make it easier for you to find a group, they exist to have fun however that is best for them, and if that means easy mode, then that is good for the game.

Many people gravitate towards the easy options when given the choice. And once the content has been completed, which will be done very quickly and with little replayability in an easy mode, the player is less likely to continue on to repeat it on a harder mode.

We don’t know how they’ll implement it, but keep in mind that with all the proposals put forth by players on how easy mode should work, even the most favorable options involve it taking MORE TIME TO COMPLETE than the hard mode option. So if you’re worried about players no longer raiding after they “get the goods,” then keep in mind that this process is expected to take longer in easy mode than in hard mode.

Add on to that that if they have reasonable repeatable rewards in both modes, then people will certainly repeat easy mode on a fairly regular basis so long as it’s enjoyable content.

From a strictly game-design perspective, I think multiple difficulties is a great thing. But this is an MMO, and you also have to consider the social implications it’ll have on the community.

I have, and I think it’ll be GREAT for the community as a whole. If it has any negative impact whatsoever it would be on the hardcore raiding community, and only among those members who don’t particularly want to be members of the hardcore raiding community, and this group is relatively small.

Every change to the game will ALWAYS have negative consequences for somebody, you cannot say “I can only approve of this if it will have ZERO negative consequences,” because then nothing would ever change. The better question is, “will this change have more positive impacts on players than it will negative,” and I think Easy Mode Raid clearly meets that standard, although obviously some disagree.

“it would be objectively worth the exact same amount”

This is COMPLETELY wrong and the fact that you don’t understand why means you need to read an economics textbook.

Objectively it is worth nothing, because it is a virtual item in a videogame. Any value that you apply to it is a subjective value. Any value that the community applies to it (such as on the TP) would be a collective subjective value, but still subjective. As others have pointed out, the armor does not even offer any statistical advantage, the only value it has is how much YOU value it, or in how much value YOU put in how others value it. Only you can control those values.

Buying raids benefits both parties, it is the exact opposite of a toxic compromise.

But it shouldn’t benefit both parties. People who enjoy raiding should not be able to prey on their fellow players like that. Every customer of a raider should have a path to that goal that is more within his own capabilities. The raider should be playing entirely because he enjoys it, not as a secondary revenue stream.

No, there shouldn’t be a reasonable path for them, but I’ll admit this one isn’t an objective reason, that’s just my opinion.

and really the one that defines all your other positions on this subject.

“Objectively it is worth nothing, because it is a virtual item in a videogame. Any value that you apply to it is a subjective value. Any value that the community applies to it (such as on the TP) would be a collective subjective value, but still subjective. As others have pointed out, the armor does not even offer any statistical advantage, the only value it has is how much YOU value it, or in how much value YOU put in how others value it. Only you can control those values.”

All of this is completely wrong, it has a real world objective value, a virtual item in a video game is still a real thing, just virtual.

“But it shouldn’t benefit both parties. People who enjoy raiding should not be able to prey on their fellow players like that. Every customer of a raider should have a path to that goal that is more within his own capabilities. The raider should be playing entirely because he enjoys it, not as a secondary revenue stream.”

And this is all your subjective opinion, which I do not share.

All of this is completely wrong, it has a real world objective value, a virtual item in a video game is still a real thing, just virtual.

Nope. That’s not how “objective” works.

And this is all your subjective opinion, which I do not share.

Clearly.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Also, you completely ignore the possibility that they might not play current raids at all

because making raid content for people who aren’t raiders is dumb

Sure, making raids for people that aren’t raiders is dumb. So is making easy mode raids for raiders. Making raids for raiders and easy mode for nonraiders however is not that dumb at all.

Arewn.2368:

When it comes to easy modes for content like raids, it’ll ruin it. By adding an easy mode, you fragment your community, and you lessen enthusiasm towards and investment in the content. Exactly this has happened in many other MMOs.

If you bring up WoW’s LFR here, it actually increased the community. Community of players doing raids of any difficulty levels, that is. It’s just that original, hardcore Raiders never wanted to be in the same group with people that found LFR fun.

Arewn.2368:

Many people gravitate towards the easy options when given the choice.

Good for them. You shouldn’t be depriving them of that choice just to have people to play with. That’s selfish.

Arewn.2368:

And once the content has been completed, which will be done very quickly and with little replayability in an easy mode, the player is less likely to continue on to repeat it on a harder mode.

If they don’t like the harder mode, they don’t like it, and that’s that. There’s no advantage in pushing players into playing content they don’t like. That only increases the chance for burnout, and them leaving the game.

Arewn.2368:

Effectively, you’d be creating an easy mode so that none raiders, people who aren’t interested enough to put effort in the first place, can coast through it once or twice. And the trade off for that is that you kill off a large swathe of your actual raiding community.

That would only happen if that large part of raiding community wasn’t there for raids at all.

Arewn.2368:

From a strictly game-design perspective, I think multiple difficulties is a great thing. But this is an MMO, and you also have to consider the social implications it’ll have on the community.

Indeed. Funny thing here, though – so far, the social implications of introducing raids are mostly negative.

The last topic on this subject was closed because all the protagonists were saying the same arguments over and over…since it will be the same here, and since no new argument will be made, can a mod lock this topic ?
Thx in advance.

Hypairion.9210:

The last topic on this subject was closed because all the protagonists were saying the same arguments over and over…since it will be the same here, and since no new argument will be made, can a mod lock this topic ?
Thx in advance.

Yes please.

Sarrs.4831:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Mind you, in some ways it’s a weird choice by ANet: they spend oodles of time designing & implementing skins with unique effects and then they limit acquisition to just one limited game mode. But it’s their game and their choice.

If they were bland, easy to design skins with no effects, then they wouldn’t encourage anyone to do anything.

True. In the case of L. items, it seems the gaudier the better. I blame anime. >.>

Let’s face it. Legendary items have always been at the apex of the cosmetic endgame offered by GW2. Thus, they’ve been hyped by both players and ANet to the point where they are head and shoulders above other goals for a lot of people.

The other interesting things to note about such items are:

• There is no necessary correlation between desire for a L. Item and a desire to participate in a specific game mode. Nor is there any necessary correlation between lack of desire for a L. item and abhorrence for a specific game mode.
• ANet always intended that gaining rare cosmetic items would require participation in specific game modes. For L. Weapons 1.0, one had to participate in explorable dungeons (at least before run-selling came along), and WvW (at least before badges in achieve chests came along).

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

curtegg.5216:

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.

ANet always intended that gaining rare cosmetic items would require participation in specific game modes. For L. Weapons 1.0, one had to participate in explorable dungeons (at least before run-selling came along), and WvW (at least before badges in achieve chests came along).

While on the face of it this is true, when we’re using those points to discuss raiding, it’s important to keep in mind that:

1. the “dungeon” requirements of OG Legendaries was MINIMAL, it involved a total of something like a half-dozen different path runs, a dozen tops, involving negligable skill and personal investment even if you weren’t paying for runs.

2. The WvW requirements were likewise fairly minimal, since even before achievement badges you could earn them by grinding out the JPs for a little while. The harder WvW part was actually the world completion portions, but most people could just wait out a favorable map rotation. And of course they strongly nerfed both of these requirements by handing out more achievement badges than any PvEer would ever need, and by removing Borderlands from the World Completion requirements.

You cannot use the requirements for OG Legendaries to justify L. Armor being locked behind raiding. None of the OG requirements involved the same amount of time, gearing, or skill investment as raiding currently does.

curtegg.5216:

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

lol

randomguy.1283:

curtegg.5216:

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.

Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.

By adding enrage timers to every single encounter, they are effectively saying “Zerker/Vipers or go home – and please don’t bring your dps ranger.” Even with every other mechanic they put in the fights, the CORE mechanic of every fight remains – kill fast.

Removing enrage timers would fix that. Adding in tiered (gold, silver, bronze) reward levels based on kill speed would ensure that teams that do the fight EXACTLY as anet intended are still rewarded for that effort – and for those teams who continually suffer or have issues (and there are many out there – no matter what people want to say on these forums) – they would have the option of going more survival focused (with the understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I would hate to see raids become super easy, but I do believe there is way (possibly the one I and others outline above) to make them a little less punishing and open to groups who just want to have fun and experience (read – actually do not just see on youtube) the fights without the high levels of dedication (again, understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I am very optimistic and pleased to see they are at least considering alternatives (even though I will most likely continue tackling the fights at max level – I do enjoy the challenge). I hope they come sooner rather than later. I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.

Blaeys.3102:

randomguy.1283:

curtegg.5216:

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.

Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.

By adding enrage timers to every single encounter, they are effectively saying “Zerker/Vipers or go home – and please don’t bring your dps ranger.” Even with every other mechanic they put in the fights, the CORE mechanic of every fight remains – kill fast.

Removing enrage timers would fix that. Adding in tiered (gold, silver, bronze) reward levels based on kill speed would ensure that teams that do the fight EXACTLY as anet intended are still rewarded for that effort – and for those teams who continually suffer or have issues (and there are many out there – no matter what people want to say on these forums) – they would have the option of going more survival focused (with the understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I would hate to see raids become super easy, but I do believe there is way (possibly the one I and others outline above) to make them a little less punishing and open to groups who just want to have fun and experience (read – actually do not just see on youtube) the fights without the high levels of dedication (again, understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I am very optimistic and pleased to see they are at least considering alternatives (even though I will most likely continue tackling the fights at max level – I do enjoy the challenge). I hope they come sooner rather than later. I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.

You can play most classes with power or condi builds
Rangers, despite what many think, aren’t fixed into a healer role with healer gear, they support the group with heals while also providing offensive buffs and dealing damage.
If you remove enrage timers, it gets even easier to faceroll your way through encounters with heavy defense and even with timers, it has already been done - There is also plenty of kills of stacking various classes x10. Build diversity in raids is there. Of course, only few builds are considered optimal but that’s the whole point behind something being optimal – it’s the best you can pick in a situation, if everything was the best then that would be very silly to say the least.