Guild Wars 2

Friggin forum bug.

Ohoni.6057:

keep in mind that this process is expected to take longer in easy mode than in hard mode.

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

Blaeys.3102:

randomguy.1283:

curtegg.5216:

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.

Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.

By adding enrage timers to every single encounter, they are effectively saying “Zerker/Vipers or go home – and please don’t bring your dps ranger.” Even with every other mechanic they put in the fights, the CORE mechanic of every fight remains – kill fast.

Removing enrage timers would fix that. Adding in tiered (gold, silver, bronze) reward levels based on kill speed would ensure that teams that do the fight EXACTLY as anet intended are still rewarded for that effort – and for those teams who continually suffer or have issues (and there are many out there – no matter what people want to say on these forums) – they would have the option of going more survival focused (with the understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I would hate to see raids become super easy, but I do believe there is way (possibly the one I and others outline above) to make them a little less punishing and open to groups who just want to have fun and experience (read – actually do not just see on youtube) the fights without the high levels of dedication (again, understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I am very optimistic and pleased to see they are at least considering alternatives (even though I will most likely continue tackling the fights at max level – I do enjoy the challenge). I hope they come sooner rather than later. I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.

“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”

The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.

cranos.5913:

Ohoni.6057:

keep in mind that this process is expected to take longer in easy mode than in hard mode.

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone

Blaeys.3102:

Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.

The only diversity “issue” is in PuG raids. Lack of timers would do nothing to lessen the pressure to have the “right stuff.” Witness dungeons. Glass was not in any way needed there, but was still insisted on. Eliminate timers, you’ll still see the right stuff demanded. If you want diversity, then don’t PuG — or start your own.

In guild raids, the raiders are doing what they think is best — or they’ve adopted a laissez-faire attitude and allow leeway with regard to builds. If groups can complete a boss with just five players, then a full group of ten should be able to allow diversity and still come out OK.

randomguy.1283:

Blaeys.3102:

randomguy.1283:

curtegg.5216:

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.

Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.

By adding enrage timers to every single encounter, they are effectively saying “Zerker/Vipers or go home – and please don’t bring your dps ranger.” Even with every other mechanic they put in the fights, the CORE mechanic of every fight remains – kill fast.

Removing enrage timers would fix that. Adding in tiered (gold, silver, bronze) reward levels based on kill speed would ensure that teams that do the fight EXACTLY as anet intended are still rewarded for that effort – and for those teams who continually suffer or have issues (and there are many out there – no matter what people want to say on these forums) – they would have the option of going more survival focused (with the understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I would hate to see raids become super easy, but I do believe there is way (possibly the one I and others outline above) to make them a little less punishing and open to groups who just want to have fun and experience (read – actually do not just see on youtube) the fights without the high levels of dedication (again, understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I am very optimistic and pleased to see they are at least considering alternatives (even though I will most likely continue tackling the fights at max level – I do enjoy the challenge). I hope they come sooner rather than later. I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.

“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”

The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.

I know that nothing anyone can say will change anyone’s minds at this point, but the proposed change would not change the difficulty one iota for top end raiders. In order to qualify for the current level of reward on VG, for instance, you would still need to beat the boss in 8 minutes.

No one is advocating for taking anything away from the raid experience at all. While raids can (and should be) difficult content, there is no hard set rule that says that is the only experience they have to or should offer. The goal should be to provide a fun experience for as many players as possible (without detracting from the challenging experience desired by more dedicated players).

Blaeys.3102:

randomguy.1283:

Blaeys.3102:

randomguy.1283:

curtegg.5216:

The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.

You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.

Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.

By adding enrage timers to every single encounter, they are effectively saying “Zerker/Vipers or go home – and please don’t bring your dps ranger.” Even with every other mechanic they put in the fights, the CORE mechanic of every fight remains – kill fast.

Removing enrage timers would fix that. Adding in tiered (gold, silver, bronze) reward levels based on kill speed would ensure that teams that do the fight EXACTLY as anet intended are still rewarded for that effort – and for those teams who continually suffer or have issues (and there are many out there – no matter what people want to say on these forums) – they would have the option of going more survival focused (with the understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I would hate to see raids become super easy, but I do believe there is way (possibly the one I and others outline above) to make them a little less punishing and open to groups who just want to have fun and experience (read – actually do not just see on youtube) the fights without the high levels of dedication (again, understanding they would get a lesser reward).

I am very optimistic and pleased to see they are at least considering alternatives (even though I will most likely continue tackling the fights at max level – I do enjoy the challenge). I hope they come sooner rather than later. I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.

“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”

The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.

I know that nothing anyone can say will change anyone’s minds at this point, but the proposed change would not change the difficulty one iota for top end raiders. In order to qualify for the current level of reward on VG, for instance, you would still need to beat the boss in 8 minutes.

No one is advocating for taking anything away from the raid experience at all. While raids can (and should be) difficult content, there is no hard set rule that says that is the only experience they have to or should offer. The goal should be to provide a fun experience for as many players as possible (without detracting from the challenging experience desired by more dedicated players).

I don’t want people to be able to beat the raid bosses on ANY tier because that ruins my experience since I feel much less accomplished when I beat those bosses. Sorry, but I actually like feeling like a kitten when I kill these things. That won’t happen if any kind of easier mode is made, especially like that.

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

I do not care about that. This is not about them, this is about the game population as a whole. Any change to any aspect of the game will result in some people having a negative reaction, that does not mean that the change is a bad thing.

If certain people can only be happy because they have something that others don’t, then they deserve to have that happiness taken away so that those who appreciate the item for what they have can have it too.

“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”

The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.

But if they would be interested in it if it had a lower difficulty level then they would be interested in it.

It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I don’t want people to be able to beat the raid bosses on ANY tier because that ruins my experience since I feel much less accomplished when I beat those bosses. Sorry, but I actually like feeling like a kitten when I kill these things. That won’t happen if any kind of easier mode is made, especially like that.

That’s a pity then, but if the cost of allowing ten more people to beat it is that you feel less good about beating it yourself, then that’s a cost well worth paying. Ultimately, you are not more important than any two other players, and if your happiness must come at their expense then you are not owed happiness.

Ohoni.6057:

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

I do not care about that. This is not about them, this is about the game population as a whole. Any change to any aspect of the game will result in some people having a negative reaction, that does not mean that the change is a bad thing.

If certain people can only be happy because they have something that others don’t, then they deserve to have that happiness taken away so that those who appreciate the item for what they have can have it too.

“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”

The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.

But if they would be interested in it if it had a lower difficulty level then they would be interested in it.

It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I don’t want people to be able to beat the raid bosses on ANY tier because that ruins my experience since I feel much less accomplished when I beat those bosses. Sorry, but I actually like feeling like a kitten when I kill these things. That won’t happen if any kind of easier mode is made, especially like that.

That’s a pity then, but if the cost of allowing ten more people to beat it is that you feel less good about beating it yourself, then that’s a cost well worth paying. Ultimately, you are not more important than any two other players, and if your happiness must come at their expense then you are not owed happiness.

I am aware, if it would actually help the games population, as I said many times before, I would still support easy mode raids even though I would be worse off myself.

Although I’m pretty sure the amount of people that would really benefit from this is limited to the 10 or so people on this forum complaining about it and is an extremely extremely insignificant number of people, to the point where anet shouldn’t care.

The problem is there’s ALREADY easy mode raids, they’re called fractals and dungeons, do those. Because easy mode raids already exist, I see no reason for anet to waste their time with this.

Although I’m pretty sure the amount of people that would really benefit from this is limited to the 10 or so people on this forum complaining about it and is an extremely extremely insignificant number of people, to the point where anet shouldn’t care.

Well, if you’re pretty sure that every person bothered by this issue are here on the forum complaining about it then I guess the issue is resolved. That seems like a perfectly reasonable assumption to make, given the overwhelming evidence of “you would like that to be true.”

The problem is there’s ALREADY easy mode raids, they’re called fractals and dungeons, do those. Because easy mode raids already exist, I see no reason for anet to waste their time with this

But those aren’t easy mode raids. Those are other content, which are not raids, but which are easier than raids, but to go back to the first point, are still not raids.

Ohoni.6057:

Although I’m pretty sure the amount of people that would really benefit from this is limited to the 10 or so people on this forum complaining about it and is an extremely extremely insignificant number of people, to the point where anet shouldn’t care.

Well, if you’re pretty sure that every person bothered by this issue are here on the forum complaining about it then I guess the issue is resolved. That seems like a perfectly reasonable assumption to make, given the overwhelming evidence of “you would like that to be true.”

The problem is there’s ALREADY easy mode raids, they’re called fractals and dungeons, do those. Because easy mode raids already exist, I see no reason for anet to waste their time with this

But those aren’t easy mode raids. Those are other content, which are not raids, but which are easier than raids, but to go back to the first point, are still not raids.

Yes they are easier than raids. Until you get your beloved easy mode.

Ohoni.6057:

Although I’m pretty sure the amount of people that would really benefit from this is limited to the 10 or so people on this forum complaining about it and is an extremely extremely insignificant number of people, to the point where anet shouldn’t care.

Well, if you’re pretty sure that every person bothered by this issue are here on the forum complaining about it then I guess the issue is resolved. That seems like a perfectly reasonable assumption to make, given the overwhelming evidence of “you would like that to be true.”

The problem is there’s ALREADY easy mode raids, they’re called fractals and dungeons, do those. Because easy mode raids already exist, I see no reason for anet to waste their time with this

But those aren’t easy mode raids. Those are other content, which are not raids, but which are easier than raids, but to go back to the first point, are still not raids.

Please explain to me the difference between dungeons and raids other than the difficulty and that one is for 5 people and one is for 10. Heads up, there isn’t. a difference.

Please explain to me the difference between dungeons and raids other than the difficulty and that one is for 5 people and one is for 10. Heads up, there isn’t. a difference.

Ok, fair enough, maybe it’s true that I’m not lacking in understanding here. Which dungeon or Fractal are you thinking of in which you can fight the Vale Guardian, Gorseval, Sabetha, Slothazor, etc.? To the best of my apparently limited knowledge, none of the existing dungeons or fractals contain these encounters, but since you seem to know which existing dungeons contain them, please explain.

Further, none of them take place within the Forsaken Thicket region.

Also, and again, I may be entirely wrong here, but none of the existing dungeons or Fractals that I’m aware of award any Magnetite shards, nor any progression towards the Legendary armor, so people chasing either of those things currently cannot earn them through dungeons or fractals, to the best of my knowledge.

And yes, as you note in passing, none of them involve ten-man teams.

An easy mode raid should have all, or at least most of these elements. Dungeons and raids, currently, do not, or if I’ve got that wrong, explain to me which of those points is inaccurate.

I rest my case.

I rest my case.

but you haven’t even made your case yet. You claimed there were no differences, so I provided a list of things that, to me, seem to be very stark differences. Since you seemed so certain that there were no differences, I asked you to provide examples of how I was wrong, but you provided none. Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can fight Sabetha and earn Magnetite?

If you rest your case before even beginning, then I’m afraid the jury will have no choice by to rule against your side.

You are the person who brought forth an idea, the burden of proof is on you, not me. To shift it on me is dishonest.

I rested my case because anyone can plainly see that you don’t actually think easy mode raids should be fun, you only want the rewards.

“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can fight Sabetha?” Hate to break it to you but you won’t be able to fight sabetha in easy mode raids either, because sabetha is actually difficult. If you change the encounter and still name it Sabetha, that doesn’t actually mean its the same thing, it’s not.

Also why do easy mode raids need the same bosses? Who cares?

“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can earn Magnetite?” Rewards=/=Content

You are proving my point over and over again that you don’t actually care about having fun in a video game, only rewards.

You are the person who brought forth an idea, the burden of proof is on you, not me. To shift it on me is dishonest.

You were the one that made the case that two clearly dissimilar things were “the same,” it burden of proof is on you to make that case, and so far you have not.

I rested my case because anyone can plainly see that you don’t actually think easy mode raids should be fun, you only want the rewards.

People keep saying this, presumably because they believe " only want the rewards" is insufficient reason to do anything (when of course that alone would be a solid reason), even though I have routinely responded that this is an inaacurate summation of my position, as while the rewards are certainly A factor in why I want easy mode raids, they are far from the ONLY factor involved.

It’s like if someone is hungry, and also enjoys burgers, and they ask for a burger, if you say “well, you’re just hungry, any food would be just as good,” that’s technically inaccurate. Yes, any food would sate the “hungry” portion, but it would not satisfy the “want to enjoy the taste of burger along the way” portion, so it’s an incomplete solution.

Yes, an alternate method of earning raid rewards would certainly solve part of the problem, but we would still be left with the part of the problem that involves being unable to fully experience the raid content without being “properly geared” and “meta built” and “in a party of all people who are equally prepared.” Those who just want to get in there and have some fun with it do not have that option currently available, and would not even if the rewards were made available via other methods.

“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can fight Sabetha?” Hate to break it to you but you won’t be able to fight sabetha in easy mode raids either, because sabetha is actually difficult. If you change the encounter and still name it Sabetha, that doesn’t actually mean its the same thing, it’s not.

Fair enough, but I laid out the conditions that I was looking for in an “easy mode” version of the encounter, one in which all the mechanics would play out the same, just with less penalty for failing them, less damage involved, for example.

Ideally, if you really know what you’re doing and the entire team plays the encounter as if it were hard mode, and they succeed at every step along the way, then the outcome would be identical to playing it in hard mode (if perhaps completed a little faster due to lower boss HP). If, on the other hand, they try, but tend to screw up a few times, they would be less likely to wipe and have to reset, the penalties for missing a dodge or not running a bomb out fast enough would not be as severe.

Players would be able to experience the conditions of the hard mode content, without the elements that tend to cause player frustration. Again, this may not appeal to you in the least, and that’s ok, it doesn’t have to. At all. Just accept as a fact that there are players for whom this would be appealing, and they are the intended audience of the easy mode version.

Also why do easy mode raids need the same bosses? Who cares?

/handraise

“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can earn Magnetite?” Rewards=/=Content

True, but it is part of the raiding package. They can either include those rewards as a part of easy mode raiding, or through some entirely different method. Given how they’ve worked on other projects, easy mode raid seems like the easiest option from their side.

You are proving my point over and over again that you don’t actually care about having fun in a video game, only rewards.

I’m afraid that’s not the case, no matter how often you try to insist that it is. I’m really nto sure why you even continue to insist it, as it would in no way help your case against easy mode raiding even if it were true.

Ohoni.6057:

You are the person who brought forth an idea, the burden of proof is on you, not me. To shift it on me is dishonest.

You were the one that made the case that two clearly dissimilar things were “the same,” it burden of proof is on you to make that case, and so far you have not.

I rested my case because anyone can plainly see that you don’t actually think easy mode raids should be fun, you only want the rewards.

People keep saying this, presumably because they believe " only want the rewards" is insufficient reason to do anything (when of course that alone would be a solid reason), even though I have routinely responded that this is an inaacurate summation of my position, as while the rewards are certainly A factor in why I want easy mode raids, they are far from the ONLY factor involved.

It’s like if someone is hungry, and also enjoys burgers, and they ask for a burger, if you say “well, you’re just hungry, any food would be just as good,” that’s technically inaccurate. Yes, any food would sate the “hungry” portion, but it would not satisfy the “want to enjoy the taste of burger along the way” portion, so it’s an incomplete solution.

Yes, an alternate method of earning raid rewards would certainly solve part of the problem, but we would still be left with the part of the problem that involves being unable to fully experience the raid content without being “properly geared” and “meta built” and “in a party of all people who are equally prepared.” Those who just want to get in there and have some fun with it do not have that option currently available, and would not even if the rewards were made available via other methods.

“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can fight Sabetha?” Hate to break it to you but you won’t be able to fight sabetha in easy mode raids either, because sabetha is actually difficult. If you change the encounter and still name it Sabetha, that doesn’t actually mean its the same thing, it’s not.

Fair enough, but I laid out the conditions that I was looking for in an “easy mode” version of the encounter, one in which all the mechanics would play out the same, just with less penalty for failing them, less damage involved, for example.

Ideally, if you really know what you’re doing and the entire team plays the encounter as if it were hard mode, and they succeed at every step along the way, then the outcome would be identical to playing it in hard mode (if perhaps completed a little faster due to lower boss HP). If, on the other hand, they try, but tend to screw up a few times, they would be less likely to wipe and have to reset, the penalties for missing a dodge or not running a bomb out fast enough would not be as severe.

Players would be able to experience the conditions of the hard mode content, without the elements that tend to cause player frustration. Again, this may not appeal to you in the least, and that’s ok, it doesn’t have to. At all. Just accept as a fact that there are players for whom this would be appealing, and they are the intended audience of the easy mode version.

Also why do easy mode raids need the same bosses? Who cares?

/handraise

“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can earn Magnetite?” Rewards=/=Content

True, but it is part of the raiding package. They can either include those rewards as a part of easy mode raiding, or through some entirely different method. Given how they’ve worked on other projects, easy mode raid seems like the easiest option from their side.

You are proving my point over and over again that you don’t actually care about having fun in a video game, only rewards.

I’m afraid that’s not the case, no matter how often you try to insist that it is. I’m really nto sure why you even continue to insist it, as it would in no way help your case against easy mode raiding even if it were true.

“You were the one that made the case that two clearly dissimilar things were “the same,” it burden of proof is on you to make that case, and so far you have not. "

I compared dungeons and fractals, which exist, to YOUR plan for easy mode raids, which do not exist. I wanted you to explain to me HOW your idea was different from dungeons and fractals.

I found your answer particularly funny because nothing you described was particularly different from dungeons and fractals, besides the rewards ofc.

I compared dungeons and fractals, which exist, to YOUR plan for easy mode raids, which do not exist. I wanted you to explain to me HOW your idea was different from dungeons and fractals.

I found your answer particularly funny because nothing you described was particularly different from dungeons and fractals, besides the rewards ofc.

I suppose “different” is rather subjective, but I think to most people, what I described would be very different. I mean, an apple and an orange are both fruits, they both contain sugars and acidic compounds, they are both rather similar in size, and only about 50nm apart in color wavelength, and yet “apples and oranges” is the textbook idiom for “two things which are completely different from each other.”

There are obvious similarities between dungeons and fractals, and yet the two activities are considered to be quite distinct from each other. There are also obvious similarities between the existing raids and both of those game types, and yet you seem to believe that the current raids deserve their own special status and special rewards. An easy mode raid, as I defined it, would have some similarities to existing fractals and dungeons, but far more similarities to the existing hard mode raids.

The closest comparison within existing content would be that hard mode raids would be equivalent to Fractal 94 Cliffside, while easy mode raids would be equivalent to Fractal 22 Cliffside, or perhaps 13. Same basic concept, same setting, just reduced odds of failure.

Ohoni.6057:

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

I do not care about that. This is not about them, this is about the game population as a whole. Any change to any aspect of the game will result in some people having a negative reaction, that does not mean that the change is a bad thing.

If certain people can only be happy because they have something that others don’t, then they deserve to have that happiness taken away so that those who appreciate the item for what they have can have it too.

“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”

The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.

But if they would be interested in it if it had a lower difficulty level then they would be interested in it.

It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I don’t want people to be able to beat the raid bosses on ANY tier because that ruins my experience since I feel much less accomplished when I beat those bosses. Sorry, but I actually like feeling like a kitten when I kill these things. That won’t happen if any kind of easier mode is made, especially like that.

That’s a pity then, but if the cost of allowing ten more people to beat it is that you feel less good about beating it yourself, then that’s a cost well worth paying. Ultimately, you are not more important than any two other players, and if your happiness must come at their expense then you are not owed happiness.

Why would it be important if 10 more players are happy because they get shinies when we are talking about game design? Gimme and everybody else free precursors, people will be very happy. Since apperantly we are doing a happiness contest, o wait we are not doing that…. So lets do some real talk. This is what the devs have to say about it.

I quote from a blogpost by the devs:

‘Our goal for introducing Raids with the release of Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™ is to give players the truly challenging group content you’ve been asking for. We want to create epic experiences for you and your friends to conquer together and, once your foes have been vanquished, to reward you in ways that allow you to show off your skills to the rest of Tyria.’

Read raids are not meant for a part of the community that does not like a challenge! And to be honest you already have fractals, dungeons and open world for easy mode content.

Raids reward prestigious legendary items, you don’t care that we want prestigious shinies? But the devs clearly meant it to be like this:

‘First, you can earn unique rewards once per week from raids, but you can play a raid as many times as you want to help your friends earn rewards or to refine your strategies. The encounters within Raids will contain tons of exclusive new items you’ll never be able to find anywhere else in the game, from miniatures, to weapon skins, to awesome titles. You can then proudly display these out in the open world to show off your skill and accomplishments. Own a Guild Hall? Awesome! You can loot a trophy from some of our bosses and use them as decorations to show off the challenge you’ve conquered.’

So lets recap here, raids are challenging content that reward cool trophies which you can show off in tyria proudly and these trophies indicate skill. Now we can put in easy mode for raids, but easy mode is not challenging, and should not give the rewards associated with beating challenging content, hence easy mode raids should not reward legendary armor.

Due to the succes and awesome content that is raids, I do agree a rather large part of the community is missing out on the cool fights and mechanics in which I take so much pleasure. As such making a easy mode available is something I definitely do agree with. I however would be plain insulted if it would reward the same trophies.

Why would it be important if 10 more players are happy because they get shinies when we are talking about game design?

I’m saying that, all things being equal, ten players made more happy would trump one player being less happy, so even accepting that Random would be unhappy if other players were allowed to be happy that weren’t him, that shouldn’t stand in the way of making those players happy. Their combined happiness is more important than his.

Gimme and everybody else free precursors, people will be very happy.

Maybe, although in the long term I think having methods to earn them would be better, so long as those methods are reasonable, so long as they fall within the valley between “way too effortless” and “so difficulty/time consuming that they aren’t worth bothering.”

Read raids are not meant for a part of the community that does not like a challenge! And to be honest you already have fractals, dungeons and open world for easy mode content.

Were not meant for those players. Most of HoT was not meant for them either, but they’ve taken steps with the latest patch to correct some of that, and may be taking steps to correct it with raids too.

Hard mode raiding will remain “not meant for low challenge players,” and that’s fine, it’s ok for such content to exist, so long as it doesn’t block those players out from things that they do want. But it’s also ok for an easier mode to exist, one that IS intended for those lower challenge players.

I’m well aware of all the things the devs said in the past, much of which was in the form of marketing spiel intended to attract exactly those sorts of players to their product. But they can’t allow marketing to dictate content, and if they determine that there is a demand from their players for a type of content they aren’t currently providing, and it’s within their capabilities to provide that content, then it would be in their overall best interests to do so. I’m not explaining this to them, they know it already, I’m trying to explain to you why they are likely to move forward on something along these lines.

So lets recap here, raids are challenging content that reward cool trophies which you can show off in tyria proudly and these trophies indicate skill. Now we can put in easy mode for raids, but easy mode is not challenging, and should not give the rewards associated with beating challenging content, hence easy mode raids should not reward legendary armor.

That ship has already sailed. It is already possible to buy raid slots, so the idea that “wearing Legendary armor will be a prestigious thing” has already been tainted beyond repair. There will already be people who bought their way through the program, so what harm is there in “easy mode” players getting their eventually too?

Besides, think of it like the old WoW progression raids. They would release a raid, and it would be hard, then another raid, and it would be hard, then another, and by that point, there would be ways for just about anyone to get through the earlier raid. Now at that state of the game, the “hardcore” players would have armor from the second or third raid, that would be the prestige gear, while “scrubs” might be able to have raid-1 armor.

Now presumably there will be something similar here, not stat progression, but at least appearance progression. However easy mode would work, I fully expect easy mode players to have their armor many months after hard mode. By this point, hardcore players should already have been wearing their Forsaken Thicket gear, and will have new shinies to show off that would be further months down the road for easy mode players. Hardcore players will have to remain hardcore to stay on the cutting edge of meta-braggart-gear, but they will have that option if they are so inclined.

I however would be plain insulted if it would reward the same trophies.

I’m totally fine with it not awarding the same trophies, so long as there is still some alternate PvE path to Envoy armor. Armor is not trophy. Armor is armor.

randomguy.1283:

cranos.5913:

Ohoni.6057:

keep in mind that this process is expected to take longer in easy mode than in hard mode.

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone

Nope. Learn the difference between “objective” and “subjective” already.

randomguy.1283:

Please explain to me the difference between dungeons and raids other than the difficulty and that one is for 5 people and one is for 10. Heads up, there isn’t. a difference.

“Please, explain to me a difference between an apple and orange, except that one is red, while the other is orange. There is no difference”.
Sorry, no matter how many times you will repeat that, it won’t make it true.

Ohoni.6057:

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

I do not care about that. This is not about them, this is about the game population as a whole. Any change to any aspect of the game will result in some people having a negative reaction, that does not mean that the change is a bad thing.

If certain people can only be happy because they have something that others don’t, then they deserve to have that happiness taken away so that those who appreciate the item for what they have can have it too.

So you’re trying to have a discussion with raiders about rewards and your whole stance is “I want to kitten you over and you should be OK with that”. Yeah, makes sense, that’s going to go somewhere.

It’s also really valuable feedback to anet. “Please kitten off the players you made this content for in the first place”. Still makes loads of sense.

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

cranos.5913:

Ohoni.6057:

keep in mind that this process is expected to take longer in easy mode than in hard mode.

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone

Nope. Learn the difference between “objective” and “subjective” already.

It’ll objectively further lower the price of the ghostly infusion which is our only decent gold gain from the raid. Objective enough for you there?

So you’re trying to have a discussion with raiders about rewards and your whole stance is “I want to kitten you over and you should be OK with that”. Yeah, makes sense, that’s going to go somewhere.

I’m not saying that they have to be ok with that, just that it should happen whether they are ok with that or not. Them being ok with it is a minor consideration in the grand scheme of things, but honestly I don’t believe they have any justification for being not ok with it. This is not a decision that I have to convince ANYONE on this forum on. Their consensus is irrelevant. The only people making this decision are inside ANet.

It’ll objectively further lower the price of the ghostly infusion which is our only decent gold gain from the raid. Objective enough for you there?

That’s reducing the market price of the item, not the inherent value. Basically it’s increasing supply, which will reduce the price even if the demand remains consistent. You can argue that the market price will fall, and that is objective, but it is the result of many people subjectively choosing to value it less than they had before.

cranos.5913:

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

cranos.5913:

Ohoni.6057:

keep in mind that this process is expected to take longer in easy mode than in hard mode.

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone

Nope. Learn the difference between “objective” and “subjective” already.

It’ll objectively further lower the price of the ghostly infusion which is our only decent gold gain from the raid. Objective enough for you there?

Which may lower its value for those that think of them as a commodity to sell. It will not affect its value for those that want them for the visual effect they give. Or, for that matter, for those that neither raid nor want the visuals.
In fact, lower price might make it more valuable for some people, as it may end up in “obtainable” range.

As you see, it’s neither objective, nor for everyone.

Astralporing.1957:

cranos.5913:

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

cranos.5913:

Ohoni.6057:

keep in mind that this process is expected to take longer in easy mode than in hard mode.

Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.

It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone

Nope. Learn the difference between “objective” and “subjective” already.

It’ll objectively further lower the price of the ghostly infusion which is our only decent gold gain from the raid. Objective enough for you there?

Which may lower its value for those that think of them as a commodity to sell. It will not affect its value for those that want them for the visual effect they give. Or, for that matter, for those that neither raid nor want the visuals.

As you see, it’s netiher objective, nor for everyone.

Ehh whatever, english is not my main language and I’m not gonna argue terminology that isn’t even relevant. The only thing here that is relevant is that rewards will be dimished for current raiders if they go with your and Ohoni’s ideas. Honestly, whether this is objectively diminished or subjectively doesn’t matter. Whether you care about it or not, this is an actual issue coming from those “suggestions”.

Ohoni.6057:

So you’re trying to have a discussion with raiders about rewards and your whole stance is “I want to kitten you over and you should be OK with that”. Yeah, makes sense, that’s going to go somewhere.

I’m not saying that they have to be ok with that, just that it should happen whether they are ok with that or not. Them being ok with it is a minor consideration in the grand scheme of things, but honestly I don’t believe they have any justification for being not ok with it. This is not a decision that I have to convince ANYONE on this forum on. Their consensus is irrelevant. The only people making this decision are inside ANet.

You can stop posting then. I’m sure anet got the message with your first 10000 posts on the matter.

Also I love how “the grand scheme of things” is literally your own selfish reasons. :P

You can stop posting then. I’m sure anet got the message with your first 10000 posts on the matter.

Well, I’m only replying to people who are arguing that it can’t or shouldn’t be done. They too have no reason to be posting, but it’s important to catch up any new people who don’t know what’s been going on.

Also I love how “the grand scheme of things” is literally your own selfish reasons. :P

But the “don’t add raids because mah prestige!” argument is even MORE selfish. I’ve already said that if I’m the only one who’d benefit from this then they definitely should not do it, but it is my contention that it would benefit far more people than it would harm, which makes it, in the grand scheme of things, the less selfish of the possible outcomes.

How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.

This. I think that easy mode raid can really help some people getting into raid, but I’m against this as a solution for other people to have raid rewards easily (legendary armor for example…)

It’s going to be ok peopke. We will get various difficulty setting, more players will raid and everybody who participates will eventually earn their legendary rewards.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.

This exactly. There’s nothing inherently bad with easy mode, it just shouldn’t allow you to earn the skill gated rewards from normal mode.

I would like to jump in and let the devs know that how you arranged rewards and mistlock instabilities really pushed an experience that allows players to get a grasp of how challenging content looks like going forward. It’s really a wonderful path between dungeons and raids, and it does act like a ladder. So I’d like to congratulate the Fractals Team, you guys exceeded my expectations!

TheRandomGuy.7246:

How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.

So much. He just stall the conversion on the ridiculous point that an easy mode should give the exact same reward. This doesn’t help to push the conversation forward at all, which is a shame.

Fermi.2409:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.

This exactly. There’s nothing inherently bad with easy mode, it just shouldn’t allow you to earn the skill gated rewards from normal mode.

I agree with this. If there is an easy mode, great, but rewards should not be equal. Doesn’t fractals work this way right now? Higher fractal gives you a better chance at better rewards. If there is tiered difficulty in raids then it should work the same way (without AR).

Mysticjedi.6053:

Doesn’t fractals work this way right now? Higher fractal gives you a better chance at better rewards.

Gonna step up on this, and say “Nope”, it’s RNG, you can pull awesome from a level 12 fractal, and complete trash from an 83.

Except there are rewards limited to different Fractal levels. And he’s correct, although you can have a bad 83 and a good 12, you generally have higher chances of getting better drops at higher Fractal levels

Fermi.2409:

Except there are rewards limited to different Fractal levels. And he’s correct, although you can have a bad 83 and a good 12, you generally have higher chances of getting better drops at higher Fractal levels

I have no seen any notable fixed limitation as far as rewards go, not in any way that matters at least, I get more relics and infusions the higher I go, but, if that is all that it will take to placate everyone, then /thread.

Give people more.. whatever it is the currency of the raid and call this done.

Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+, just like legendary armor/components should be limited to the normal mode raid

STIHL.2489:

Mysticjedi.6053:

Doesn’t fractals work this way right now? Higher fractal gives you a better chance at better rewards.

Gonna step up on this, and say “Nope”, it’s RNG, you can pull awesome from a level 12 fractal, and complete trash from an 83.

You can also pull a pre from a Lv2 moa if you’re lucky and never get something from fracs.
Does that mean farming low level moas is more rewarding than fracs? No.

You have higher chances to get good drops on high scales and high level dailies have more rewards added to them which you can’t get in lower tiers.

As for raids, easy mode should only reward the guaranteed exotic and rare + gold I guess, maybe a small amount of shards. No minis, no asc gear, no insights etc. and you also shouldn’t be able to unlock the raid mastery track by doing easy mode bosses; the effects granted by said track should simply be permanently active in easy-mode raids.

Mysticjedi.6053:

Fermi.2409:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.

This exactly. There’s nothing inherently bad with easy mode, it just shouldn’t allow you to earn the skill gated rewards from normal mode.

I agree with this. If there is an easy mode, great, but rewards should not be equal. Doesn’t fractals work this way right now? Higher fractal gives you a better chance at better rewards. If there is tiered difficulty in raids then it should work the same way (without AR).

Ohoni’s not actually against that. It’s the raiders that say that it’s not only the quantity, but also quality of rewards that should be different.

Astralporing.1957:

Mysticjedi.6053:

Fermi.2409:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.

This exactly. There’s nothing inherently bad with easy mode, it just shouldn’t allow you to earn the skill gated rewards from normal mode.

I agree with this. If there is an easy mode, great, but rewards should not be equal. Doesn’t fractals work this way right now? Higher fractal gives you a better chance at better rewards. If there is tiered difficulty in raids then it should work the same way (without AR).

Ohoni’s not actually against that. It’s the raiders that say that it’s not only the quantity, but also quality of rewards that should be different.

His example is fractals as a similiar system. But the rewards are different and some things can’t be aquired at lower levels like golden fractal weapons.
So there is actually no reason that legendary armor should be available in easy mode.
He just wants the shinies.

Fermi.2409:

Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+, just like legendary armor/components should be limited to the normal mode raid

Nope, you’re wrong about the Golden Relics.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

You have higher chances to get good drops on high scales and high level dailies have more rewards added to them which you can’t get in lower tiers.

Nope. Wrong.

Sorry, I get you want your little bits of entitlement, but as you said, a Precursors can drop from a Moa, as such, there is nothing currently in the game that justifies the total lock out you all want.

And most assuredly not in fractals.

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

Mysticjedi.6053:

Fermi.2409:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.

This exactly. There’s nothing inherently bad with easy mode, it just shouldn’t allow you to earn the skill gated rewards from normal mode.

I agree with this. If there is an easy mode, great, but rewards should not be equal. Doesn’t fractals work this way right now? Higher fractal gives you a better chance at better rewards. If there is tiered difficulty in raids then it should work the same way (without AR).

Ohoni’s not actually against that. It’s the raiders that say that it’s not only the quantity, but also quality of rewards that should be different.

His example is fractals as a similiar system. But the rewards are different and some things can’t be aquired at lower levels like golden fractal weapons.

You probably meant Golden Relics. The weapons themselves can drop from lower levels (or at least could before last changes, not sure how it is now). I have several already, and only one was from 50+ daily chest.

STIHL.2489:

Fermi.2409:

Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+, just like legendary armor/components should be limited to the normal mode raid

Nope, you’re wrong about the Golden Relics.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Idea-Fractal-Journals-for-Golden-Relics/first#post6111399

Kek. At least do your research before trying to call you out.

STIHL.2489:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

You have higher chances to get good drops on high scales and high level dailies have more rewards added to them which you can’t get in lower tiers.

Nope. Wrong.

No, that’s exactly how it works. Especially for ascended gear and the like.

STIHL.2489:

Sorry, I get you want your little bits of entitlement

The only entitled one I see here is you, wanting legendary armor but not wanting to work for it and thinking that’s reasonable.

STIHL.2489:

Sorry, I get you want your little bits of entitlement, but as you said, a Precursors can drop from a Moa, as such, there is nothing currently in the game that justifies the total lock out you all want.

And most assuredly not in fractals.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Backpack:_Ad_Infinitum

“Totally locked out” unless you do level 100 fractal in under 25 minutes.

How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.

Most people who make that argument tend to be “fine with an easy mode. . . so long as it’s a complete waste of everyone’s time.”

Well sorry if that doesn’t mean much to me. The following conditions all need to be met, perhaps not entirely by a single easy mode, but at the very least by multiple different modes:

1. Players must be able to play the Forsaken Thicket bosses and other encounters, in a lower risk environment than the current raids offer.

2. Players must be able to progress towards earning Legendary Armor through some PvE method that does not involve having to clear the existing difficulty of raids.

3. The Easy mode raids should offer reduced rewards compared to hard mode, but should be rewarding enough that they would be competitive for players’ attention with content of equivalent time and effort investment, making them worth running on reset.

Many of those who claim to “generally support easy mode raiding” will only do so if one or more of those conditions is completely off the table, which is akin to saying “sure, you can have a car, you just can’t leave the driveway with it.” Sorry if that doesn’t improve anything for those that want an actual, viable easy mode.

The only entitled one I see here is you, wanting legendary armor but not wanting to work for it and thinking that’s reasonable.

I haven’t seen one person in these threads that is unwilling to work to earn Legendary armor. The only point of contention is that you insist that we can only earn them by doing one specific activity, while the rest of us believe that we should be able to earn it through multiple different activities to better suit individual tastes.

Fermi.2409:

STIHL.2489:

Fermi.2409:

Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+, just like legendary armor/components should be limited to the normal mode raid

Nope, you’re wrong about the Golden Relics.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Idea-Fractal-Journals-for-Golden-Relics/first#post6111399

Kek. At least do your research before trying to call you out.

I did. Thanks

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Golden_Fractal_Relic

Core Chest is 21 – 50. Thank you very much.

The More I think about it, Main Tryia Legendary Precursors, can drop from anything really, just a super rare chance, so you can opt to work for one Via “Legendary Journey” or you can get one by pure Luck.

They should apply that same mechanic to HoT legendary Weapons, where the Precursors can drop from any HoT mob, so players can do the Journey, or simply luck out. Same for the Legendary Armor.

I think that would be a good for the game overall.