Well sorry if that doesn’t mean much to me. The following conditions all need to be met, perhaps not entirely by a single easy mode, but at the very least by multiple different modes:
1. Players must be able to play the Forsaken Thicket bosses and other encounters, in a lower risk environment than the current raids offer.
2. Players must be able to progress towards earning Legendary Armor through some PvE method that does not involve having to clear the existing difficulty of raids.
3. The Easy mode raids should offer reduced rewards compared to hard mode, but should be rewarding enough that they would be competitive for players’ attention with content of equivalent time and effort investment, making them worth running on reset.
I have no issues with this. I’d go so far as to say that most people don’t. The only caveat is that for #2, they need to have the equivalent method of earning the legendary armor be of similar/equivalent difficulty. Having it in easymode raids (or easymode anything, really) completely devalues the reward
I haven’t seen one person in these threads that is unwilling to work to earn Legendary armor. The only point of contention is that you insist that we can only earn them by doing one specific activity, while the rest of us believe that we should be able to earn it through multiple different activities to better suit individual tastes.
All I’ve seen is people wanting to be able to get legendary through substantially easier content (specifically easymode raids), you included.
Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+, just like legendary armor/components should be limited to the normal mode raid
Nope, you’re wrong about the Golden Relics.
Kek. At least do your research before trying to call you out.
I did. Thanks
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Golden_Fractal_Relic
Core Chest is 21 – 50. Thank you very much.
Core chest != dropping. Good try though.
(edited by Fermi.2409)
Good try though.
You Didn’t say “Dropped” you, said:
Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+
And you’re Wrong… Discussion Over.
I have no issues with this. I’d go so far as to say that most people don’t. The only caveat is that for #2, they need to have the equivalent method of earning the legendary armor be of similar/equivalent difficulty. Having it in easymode raids (or easymode anything, really) completely devalues the reward
If it’s of equivalent difficulty then what would be the point? If A and B are of equal difficulty, then how many people would do B that would never do A? The entire point would be to open it up to more people. It should not be equivalent difficulty, it should be equivalent EFFORT. It’s like a pulley system, you can either dead-lift a heavy weight, which requires a great deal of strength over a relatively short distance, or you can run it through from pulleys so that it would require significantly less strength, but requires pulling that reduced weight over a longer distance.
Another example would be stairs verses ramps. a steep staircase is faster to climb than a long ramp, but requires more leg strength and capabilities that some people lack. A ramp takes more time to travel, but provides a path for those whom stairs cannot satisfy.
I totally agree that the methods should be in balance, that the easier route must take longer, more repetitions, equivalent overall effort, but not difficulty.
All I’ve seen is people wanting to be able to get legendary through substantially easier content (specifically easymode raids), you included.
Easier, certainly, in terms of difficulty, at least, but not in terms of effort expended.
Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content).
Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”).
Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing).
Easy mode raiding will devalue the prestige of items found in the real raid (Ohoni and his friends do not care about this but its still a fact people care about their items and how they aquire them).
Easy mode is unnecessary and being used purely as a protest point because some people who – if they spent as much time raiding as posting on forums – could get the rewards currently choose not to.
PS. Communism doesn’t work (no reason at all I’m mentioning this, none at all)
1. Players must be able to play the Forsaken Thicket bosses and other encounters, in a lower risk environment than the current raids offer.
2. Players must be able to progress towards earning Legendary Armor through some PvE method that does not involve having to clear the existing difficulty of raids.
3. The Easy mode raids should offer reduced rewards compared to hard mode, but should be rewarding enough that they would be competitive for players’ attention with content of equivalent time and effort investment, making them worth running on reset.
1. Sure, that sounds like easy mode. I can get behind that idea.
2. Truthfully, don’t care either way. I’m more on board with people who want to do raids, but find them too difficult and need an easier mode to focus on mechanics until they can get do the actual raid.
3. Sure as long as it is not exactly equal to normal raid mode. Example, they should not get insights, but maybe insight fragments that can be combined to make a single insight.
Remember this is true and actual end game content. Raids are meant to be challenging and rewarding. If there is an easy mode it should focus on helping players learn boss mechanics, but not on giving rewards. Easy mode should prepare people to be able to take on standard difficulty raid.
Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content).
We have no idea how much of a drain on resources they would cause, or from which projects they would take them. ANY project is a drain on resources, including the current raids, so “it’s a drain on resources” is no reason to not do something, if the payoff is good enough. I understand that you don’t believe the payoff would be good enough to you, just as the payoff of the existing raids is not good enough to justify them to me, but I fully believe that the payoff would be good enough to enough gamers to justify the effort.
Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”).
It doesn’t have to. They can continue to design hard mode entirely in their own bubble, and allow a secondary team to worry about adapting it to an easier version.
Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing).
Again, I don’t believe that Easy mode, IF it takes any significant amount of effort to implement, should be a burden on the existing team. It should either be outsourced to another team, or involve the core raid team increasing slightly in size to accommodate the workload. The goal should be to not stretch out the timetable on the existing raid schedule.
Easy mode raiding will devalue the prestige of items found in the real raid (Ohoni and his friends do not care about this but its still a fact people care about their items and how they aquire them).
It will not devalue it any more than selling raid runs currently does. That ship has already sailed and there was mass cheering from the docks. The “prestige” of the items would be completely unchanged, all that might change is the value of selling a raid run to your fellow players.
Easy mode is unnecessary and being used purely as a protest point because some people who – if they spent as much time raiding as posting on forums – could get the rewards currently choose not to.
It may be completely unnecessary to you, and that’s fine. But it is important to others, and nothing you can say will change that.
2. Truthfully, don’t care either way. I’m more on board with people who want to do raids, but find them too difficult and need an easier mode to focus on mechanics until they can get do the actual raid.
I think that if people want to use easy mode as a stepping stone, then it should have value for that purpose, it should ease them into the mechanics of the hard mode raid and make that progression easier. I do not, however, believe that hard mode raid should necessarily be the goal for every player, the easy mode should not be seen merely as a stepping stone, of no value other than as a training tool. The intent is for it to be its own mode, perhaps the only raid some players will ever play, but that they can enjoy and feel rewarded for. Not every player will ever want to do hard mode, and that’s ok. There’s nothing wrong with that.
3. Sure as long as it is not exactly equal to normal raid mode. Example, they should not get insights, but maybe insight fragments that can be combined to make a single insight.
Right, there’s been a lot of discussion as to the exact mechanics, but everyone agrees that if it provides a path, it would at least be a slower path, smaller portions of the ingredients that require more runs of the content to complete the collections.
Remember this is true and actual end game content. Raids are meant to be challenging and rewarding. If there is an easy mode it should focus on helping players learn boss mechanics, but not on giving rewards. Easy mode should prepare people to be able to take on standard difficulty raid.
Everyone sets their own goals. Some people like to set the goal of “mastering the most challenging content,” and that’s fine, that challenging content should exist for those players to tackle. But those players also need to consider that this goal does NOT fit every player. Plenty of people who play this game have no intention of tackling the most challenging content, and that’s perfectly fine. They have no reason why they should, nobody benefits from them tackling that content if they won’t enjoy it. Players should not be funneled into eventually beating the most challenging content, they should be able to freely choose whether they WANT to do that or not, without being permanently locked out of elements that they do want to enjoy.
Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content).
We have no idea how much of a drain on resources they would cause, or from which projects they would take them. ANY project is a drain on resources, including the current raids, so “it’s a drain on resources” is no reason to not do something, if the payoff is good enough. I understand that you don’t believe the payoff would be good enough to you, just as the payoff of the existing raids is not good enough to justify them to me, but I fully believe that the payoff would be good enough to enough gamers to justify the effort.
Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”).
It doesn’t have to. They can continue to design hard mode entirely in their own bubble, and allow a secondary team to worry about adapting it to an easier version.
Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing).
Again, I don’t believe that Easy mode, IF it takes any significant amount of effort to implement, should be a burden on the existing team. It should either be outsourced to another team, or involve the core raid team increasing slightly in size to accommodate the workload. The goal should be to not stretch out the timetable on the existing raid schedule.
So just so everyone is clear on your solution; you want to hire new people or shift devs off current active projects to create a sub raid team which needs to be caught up on all the tech the current raid team uses and can edit all mechanic and reward coding to generate easy mode raid content while having absolutely zero impact or communication with the current raid team to preserve the integrity of that group (just so you can get Legendary Armour you might not even like the look of in a few months/years time).
Why don’t you just form a guild with Astral and Stihl, would be a lot less dangerous for raids and you might even enjoy yourself.
So just so everyone is clear on your solution; you want to hire new people or shift devs off current active projects to create a sub raid team which needs to be caught up on all the tech the current raid team uses and can edit all mechanic and reward coding to generate easy mode raid content while having absolutely zero impact or communication with the current raid team to preserve the integrity of that group (just so you can get Legendary Armour you might not even like the look of in a few months/years time).
Just so everyone is clear on my solution; I don’t believe this project would take a significant amount of work, so it would require a very small staff, 1-2 people, over a relatively short period of time, and I will continue to believe this until someone from ANet familiar with these systems says otherwise. But again, ANet is the one who will make the call on this, not you, not me, they will decide the cost/benefit analysis, and decide whether it’s worth doing.
If they do pull people in from other teams, presumably they would already be up to speed on the development tools, which should be identical between different PvE elements, so that isn’t a consideration. I do not believe they should have to hire entirely new people for this purpose. And sure, they should communicate with the existing raid team, but not to a degree that it would have any significant impact on the creation of new raids.
You act like the developers are pod-people or something, at a console 24/7 working mechanically on the next project, and that even having a short conversation with someone from another department would completely derail future development. What sort of nonsense world is this? Development is an artistic project, you shift focus from task to task to keep things fresh, so of course they’ll have breaks from the usual tasks where they can keep tabs on things outside their area.
Why don’t you just form a guild with Astral and Stihl, would be a lot less dangerous for raids and you might even enjoy yourself.
Because that would not make me happy. Why do you keep offering suggestions of how I could do the existing raids, when you’ve been told repeatedly that that would not make me happy?
Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content).
Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”).
Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing).
Easy mode raiding will devalue the prestige of items found in the real raid (Ohoni and his friends do not care about this but its still a fact people care about their items and how they aquire them).
Easy mode is unnecessary and being used purely as a protest point because some people who – if they spent as much time raiding as posting on forums – could get the rewards currently choose not to.
PS. Communism doesn’t work (no reason at all I’m mentioning this, none at all)
Who is we? Raiders? I certainly don´t want new raids. I did not even want the one we already have now, but Anet thought it was a good idea. If they think it is a good idea to make then more accessible, would not by your logic that be the same line of reasoning? It is good because Anet said so.
We do not know if the legendary weapons team was behind or the game was hard to program in that question.
The moment the first guy was carried throughh raids, your prestige item is already ruined.
How would you like it if you wanted to have an item that is exclusively protected by a single type of content? Soldier through countless hours of lets say WvW, despite not wanting to do it? You basically ask people to either bend over and swallow the toad and bore themselves to tears for hours with that reasoning.
Oligarchy(the rule of a rich elite over everyone else) also does not work, so what is your point with communism?
Good try though.
You Didn’t say “Dropped” you, said:
Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+
And you’re Wrong… Discussion Over.
The meaning was clear. My point, which is that golden fractal relic drops are limited to level 50+, stands. Get over yourself.
If it’s of equivalent difficulty then what would be the point? If A and B are of equal difficulty, then how many people would do B that would never do A? The entire point would be to open it up to more people.
No, the entire point is to open it up to people who don’t like raid.
It should not be equivalent difficulty, it should be equivalent EFFORT. It’s like a pulley system, you can either dead-lift a heavy weight, which requires a great deal of strength over a relatively short distance, or you can run it through from pulleys so that it would require significantly less strength, but requires pulling that reduced weight over a longer distance.
Except grinding easy content for hours requires significantly less EFFORT then learning to do and completing hard content. Sure, it takes more time, but not effort.
(edited by Fermi.2409)
Oligarchy(the rule of a rich elite over everyone else) also does not work
You live in an elective oligarchy… (it means rule of the few)
(edited by Coulter.2315)
Oligarchy(the rule of a rich elite over everyone else) also does not work
You live in an elective oligarchy… (did you not even google it?)
It´s called democracy here, but lets take a trip to bitter voter land for a moment then. How does the fact that it is the least unacceptable solution is in place right now make it work to the satisfaction of people? You could say the same for communism, it is practiced in some places of the world and works there. Maybe not for your or my standards, but people have functional governments there.
Ohoni.6057:
If it’s of equivalent difficulty then what would be the point? If A and B are of equal difficulty, then how many people would do B that would never do A? The entire point would be to open it up to more people.
No, the entire point is to open it up to people who don’t like raid.
Yes, exactly. The people who enjoy the current raid are already enjoying it, easy mode is intended to open it up to those who are not currently enjoying it. . . I thought that was obvious.
Except grinding easy content for hours requires significantly less EFFORT then learning to do and completing hard content. Sure, it takes more time, but not effort.
No, equivalent effort, just less skill required. Again, stairs vs. ramps.You could work harder over a shorter period of time, or work easier over a longer period of time.
Another good example would be rock climbing. Imagine a half-dome mountain, like El Capitan. One side is a shear cliff, the other a smooth dome. One person can choose to climb the shear cliff, the straightest path, and for someone with the strength to pull it off, the fastest. Another could choose to climb the dome side, zig-zagging up the mountain, much less strenuous, but still quite a workout, and they have to cover more ground to do it so it takes longer. Both people will reach the top and get the “reward” of the view, but everyone knows that the one that climbed the shear cliff accomplished something more difficult. Being able to climb the other side does not take anything away from his accomplishment, and it’s still a popular climbing spot.
Yes, exactly. The people who enjoy the current raid are already enjoying it, easy mode is intended to open it up to those who are not currently enjoying it. . . I thought that was obvious.
Easy mode is a training wheel and a way to experience the narrative and character interaction without much stress. Easy mode is not an alternative way to get normal mode achievements. Fractals work that way too. Even season 2 and season 3 work that way.
Another good example would be rock climbing. Imagine a half-dome mountain, like El Capitan. One side is a shear cliff, the other a smooth dome. One person can choose to climb the shear cliff, the straightest path, and for someone with the strength to pull it off, the fastest. Another could choose to climb the dome side, zig-zagging up the mountain, much less strenuous, but still quite a workout, and they have to cover more ground to do it so it takes longer. Both people will reach the top and get the “reward” of the view, but everyone knows that the one that climbed the shear cliff accomplished something more difficult. Being able to climb the other side does not take anything away from his accomplishment, and it’s still a popular climbing spot.
“View” in our case is a screenshot of a gold statue that spawns after boss is defeated. That guy who went straightest path also got a trophy for climbing the hard way when the “dome side” guy got a pat on a back and a view he wanted to get.
Easy mode is a training wheel and a way to experience the narrative and character interaction without much stress. Easy mode is not an alternative way to get normal mode achievements. Fractals work that way too. Even season 2 and season 3 work that way.
I think this concept is flawed for several reasons:
-1. Not all players want to ever do hard mode. You REALLY need to fully grasp this point, whether it applies to you or not. Hard mode is NOT for everyone, not even “eventually.” I don’t mean that people just “need more practice” to be “good enough” for hard mode, I mean that plenty of people do not ever want to be doing hard mode, hard mode is not their goal. It is just not a way that they will ever have fun, and these people shouldn’t be doing hard mode, because this is a game, and players that are not having fun are basically doing it all wrong and most likely to burn out.
Easy mode can exist as training wheels, but it shouldn’t only exist as training wheels, because plenty of players will never enjoy the experience of having those wheels off.
-2. If easy mode itself does not provide incentive to do it multiple times for its own sake (ie NOT just as “training” for bigger and “better” things), then most players will not bother with it for more than a single runthrough. It will still be reasonable difficult and time-consuming content relative to the rest of the game, and requires a level of reward that is worth that experience. If they do provide balanced rewards for it, however, it would go into people’s daily/weekly rotations of activities and provide many hours of replay-ability.
If you want to argue that the existing raids do not offer enough rewards, that’s fine, make that case, but it’s irrelevant to the rewards appropriate to easy mode raiding.
-3. As for achievements, I can totally agree with you that hard mode can and should have exclusive access to “bragging rights” achievements. Anything with a title, it’s fine for Easy mode to NEVER have access to these. I do, however, think that easy mode needs access to anything necessary for the Legendary path, and anything that offers Mastery points, since these things should not be off limits to easy mode players. They can re-juggle things however they need to achieve that.
“View” in our case is a screenshot of a gold statue that spawns after boss is defeated. That guy who went straightest path also got a trophy for climbing the hard way when the “dome side” guy got a pat on a back and a view he wanted to get.
Don’t try to break an analogy, it’s too “easy mode” to take any pride in. Analogies are inherently fragile things, that inevitably break when pushed in the wrong direction, it’s like punching a baby and dancing over it. Just take the analogy as it was intended or not at all.
Yes, exactly. The people who enjoy the current raid are already enjoying it, easy mode is intended to open it up to those who are not currently enjoying it. . . I thought that was obvious.
Easy mode is a training wheel and a way to experience the narrative and character interaction without much stress. Easy mode is not an alternative way to get normal mode achievements. Fractals work that way too. Even season 2 and season 3 work that way.
Actually, Fractals did not work this way. If you made some 20+ fractals to get the stuff needed to craft the ascended backpiece, you could fill the rest of what you neded up with lvl1 fractals if you really wanted to. 20+ was a level that the largest majority of people could do with minimal, not hours long preparation. 40+ fractals were completely optional and mainly done for ascended hests and the heck of it.
Easy mode is a training wheel and a way to experience the narrative and character interaction without much stress. Easy mode is not an alternative way to get normal mode achievements. Fractals work that way too. Even season 2 and season 3 work that way.
I think this concept is flawed for several reasons:
Yet developers around the world use this concept to make their games.
Actually, Fractals did not work this way. If you made some 20+ fractals to get the stuff needed to craft the ascended backpiece, you could fill the rest of what you neded up with lvl1 fractals if you really wanted to. 20+ was a level that the largest majority of people could do with minimal, not hours long preparation. 40+ fractals were completely optional and mainly done for ascended hests and the heck of it.
Yeah you can get ascended pretty easy in fractals, but to get fractal legendary you need to do the “hard mode”.
Don’t try to break an analogy, it’s too “easy mode” to take any pride in. Analogies are inherently fragile things, that inevitably break when pushed in the wrong direction, it’s like punching a baby and dancing over it. Just take the analogy as it was intended or not at all.
You analogy was not complete. Adding important details to it is not “pushing it in the wrong direction”.
Yet developers around the world use this concept to make their games.
It really does depend on the type of game you’re trying to make. GW2 was sold on, and thrived for over three years on, the theory that you could break away from these level grind, gear grind, and content treadmills, and just trust players to enjoy the content they enjoy! It was a great game. Then they started to drift away from that, and raids are the pinnacle so far in their achievement of ruining the game they started with. Maybe they’ve realized their errors and are trying to correct it though.
But if that’s the sort of game you want, the sort of game that developers all over the world are making, then those games are out there waiting for you, why ruin ours?
You analogy was not complete. Adding important details to it is not “pushing it in the wrong direction”.
They were not important to the analogy I was making. In the analogy I was making, the view was the Legendary armor, that’s it. If you change it to something else, then my analogy would no longer be my analogy, it would be your own analogy, and function to highlight some entirely different point. Again, any analogy, if you seek to ignore the point being made with it and seek out areas where it does not relate to the intended topic, you will find those points. There is no benefit in doing so, however, it does not help you prove your larger point, it just comes across as petty and overly defensive.
Actually, Fractals did not work this way. If you made some 20+ fractals to get the stuff needed to craft the ascended backpiece, you could fill the rest of what you neded up with lvl1 fractals if you really wanted to. 20+ was a level that the largest majority of people could do with minimal, not hours long preparation. 40+ fractals were completely optional and mainly done for ascended hests and the heck of it.
Yeah you can get ascended pretty easy in fractals, but to get fractal legendary you need to do the “hard mode”.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Ascended is nearly for “free”, “legendary” is not. Why?
The first little step on a gear treadmill? I know that people will now rush in to defend the idea that ascended and legendary are the same, so I will spare everyone the time and agree that legendary and ascended have the same stats at the moment. But maybe you can agree with me that Anet was forced or is voluneering to up their available stats piece by piece. Although nobody uses it, infusions were also a step in that direction.
Recognition by skin? Totally irrelevant for me personally, but maybge a seller for many people. I don´t know.
Incentive to do raids? My personal favorite. Anet knew that raids would be controversial in GW2 and so had to tie something prestigeous to the raid to make it viable enough and even played so hardball that dungeons were nerfed to push raids even more.
The funny thing is that people who can use the armor probably the least are the hardcore raiders! And for good reason, for someone who is looking to milk the last stat out of its equipment, legendary armor is as useful as a hairband for a bald man. So Anet completely missed the mark with that particular equipment except for the “forcing” of people into raids who probably would have thought that the effort is not worth the gain in any other instance. And for the blatant attempt alone I would refuse to raid even if I had the interest to fullfill the other requirements.
So, I’ll say this again. Easy mode raids aren’t a bad idea, but they are a training mode for a regular raid. Rewards should be less, because you’re doing less. Progress should be significantly slower (no full insights, and collection drops having a rare chance instead of a promised drop).
Anet does want people to play their way, but they’ve also made a decision that legendary needs to try to mean something. This is why they’ve taken away random weapon HOT drops, provided PvP and Fractal backpieces. I understand the feeling that is being expressed, I just don’t agree with it.
When someone shows off a legendary it should be a cool factor. Core legendaries don’t have that. Fractal ones do. Pvp do to some extent. Legendary armor should. It shouldn’t be impossible, but it should push players.
I like the direction Anet is going, but I also like the idea of an easy mode so player can, if they choose to, play a standard difficulty raid with confidence. I am not for giving easy mode players the same quality of rewards, drops, or prestige.
Good try though.
You Didn’t say “Dropped” you, said:
Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+
And you’re Wrong… Discussion Over.
The meaning was clear. My point, which is that golden fractal relic drops are limited to level 50+, stands. Get over yourself.
Can’t admit you’re wrong huh? Whatever.
So, I’ll say this again. Easy mode raids aren’t a bad idea, but they are a training mode for a regular raid.
And I’ll say again, definitely not.
They can be used as a training mode for regular raid, if someone wants that, but they also need to serve as a start-to-finish alternative to regular raids for players that will NEVER enjoy regular raids under any circumstances.
Rewards should be less, because you’re doing less. Progress should be significantly slower (no full insights, and collection drops having a rare chance instead of a promised drop).
Obviously, and again, I have yet to hear a single person disagree with this premise, so I don’t know why people keep raising it as if it’s controversial.
Anet does want people to play their way, but they’ve also made a decision that legendary needs to try to mean something. This is why they’ve taken away random weapon HOT drops, provided PvP and Fractal backpieces. I understand the feeling that is being expressed, I just don’t agree with it.
And they seem to be backing away from that with the reduction in the Legendary team. Hopefully they continue to pull back and recognize that their players want post-HoT Legendary items to be more achievable than the current methods.
When someone shows off a legendary it should be a cool factor. Core legendaries don’t have that. Fractal ones do. Pvp do to some extent. Legendary armor should. It shouldn’t be impossible, but it should push players.
It should take time and effort, certainly, but it should be a path that players of any skill level can work towards. You should not have to achieve significant levels of skill in order to earn them, though certainly higher skill can allow for shorter routes to the finish line.
Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+, just like legendary armor/components should be limited to the normal mode raid
Nope, you’re wrong about the Golden Relics.
You have higher chances to get good drops on high scales and high level dailies have more rewards added to them which you can’t get in lower tiers.
Nope. Wrong.
Sorry, I get you want your little bits of entitlement, but as you said, a Precursors can drop from a Moa, as such, there is nothing currently in the game that justifies the total lock out you all want.
And most assuredly not in fractals.
Anet confirmed multiple times higher scale dailies have higher chance on rare/good loot and simply finishing a high scale gives more EXP/loot than finishing the same fractal on a low scale, yet I’m wrong.
???
Good try though.
You Didn’t say “Dropped” you, said:
Golden Relics are also limited to Fractal level 50+
And you’re Wrong… Discussion Over.
“We’re looking into adding other things to spend Fractal Journals on, but I don’t think Golden Relics will be one of them. Journals are obtained only in the 1-50 range, while Golden Relics are obtained only in the 51-100 range.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Idea-Fractal-Journals-for-Golden-Relics
with that, I will quote yourself.
And you’re Wrong… Discussion Over.
(edited by Leezy.4567)
Oh, I’ve missed these threads. The off-topic side discussions, the out of the norm demands- it’s great to be back.
I’m not entirely sure what role easy mode raids are supposed to fill.
Training wheels for raids? Well, maybe. But most raids are set up to stack mechanics until it gets progressively harder and harder. That is, the first phase of each fight is the training mode.
An easier path to legendary? I think this is why people really want an easy mode. And, well, it’s not the best argument. “Let’s devote resources to develop an entirely different game mode, just so some players can get a tier of gear that provides no stat bonuses, is incredibly expensive, and for a skin that they don’t even know what is looks like.” This is why the legendary weapon team disbanded.
To provide for easier content (that some players find more enjoyable)? This is already in the game – Fractals and dungeons. There is no difference between a 5-man easy mode raid and a dungeon. The only argument I’ve heard is “But I don’t get to fight sabetha!” Well, an easy mode would not be “sabetha” because it wouldn’t have the same mechanics. And we don’t have easy mode of other bosses, like lupi or the aether path foreman.
So why do we want easy modes again?
Oh, I’ve missed these threads. The off-topic side discussions, the out of the norm demands- it’s great to be back.
I’m not entirely sure what role easy mode raids are supposed to fill.
Training wheels for raids? Well, maybe. But most raids are set up to stack mechanics until it gets progressively harder and harder. That is, the first phase of each fight is the training mode.
An easier path to legendary? I think this is why people really want an easy mode. And, well, it’s not the best argument. “Let’s devote resources to develop an entirely different game mode, just so some players can get a tier of gear that provides no stat bonuses, is incredibly expensive, and for a skin that they don’t even know what is looks like.” This is why the legendary weapon team disbanded.
To provide for easier content (that some players find more enjoyable)? This is already in the game – Fractals and dungeons. There is no difference between a 5-man easy mode raid and a dungeon. The only argument I’ve heard is “But I don’t get to fight sabetha!” Well, an easy mode would not be “sabetha” because it wouldn’t have the same mechanics. And we don’t have easy mode of other bosses, like lupi or the aether path foreman.
So why do we want easy modes again?
Read my op.
Nobody is asking to redo the entire game mode… This is not rocket science either.
See the boons you can use in the training area? That could easily be used. Timer settings? Easy too…
There are reasonable and simpler options to improve raids and generate interest.
“We’re looking into adding other things to spend Fractal Journals on, but I don’t think Golden Relics will be one of them. Journals are obtained only in the 1-50 range, while Golden Relics are obtained only in the 51-100 range.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Idea-Fractal-Journals-for-Golden-Relics
Wow, I am not sure how many people who have not read the whole exchange, that I am now going to have to hold the hand of and walk them though the discussion, to show them how wrong they are, but, it seems that answer is going to be: More then One
With that said, lets have a hand holding walk-thorough. Do you see this chest: Chest of the Core Fractal Hero Now, I have gotten this chest, so I know what it is in it, I also know, you can get it without ever having done a fractal above 50, and you can get it without having a personal fractal level above 50, as I have done that as well.
So what’s in that chest? Oh right, a Golden Fractal Relic
So, your wrong as well. Next time, I suggest you actually know about the content you wish to talk about.
Good Day Sir.
You have higher chances to get good drops on high scales and high level dailies have more rewards added to them which you can’t get in lower tier.
Anet confirmed multiple times higher scale dailies have higher chance on rare/good loot and simply finishing a high scale gives more EXP/loot than finishing the same fractal on a low scale, yet I’m wrong.
Yes, you are wrong, and the bold is why you are wrong.
As far as daily chests go, you can get better loot from a Level 12 Fractal Daily, then you can can from a level 83, because it’s all RNG.
Have a look at them, do you see any limitations?
Initiates Chest
Adepts Chest
Experts Chest
Masters Chest
Better Chances.. Maybe.. Exclusive Stuff.. Nope.
Now. I hope everyone is done showing how little they know about Fractals on a Raid topic, perhaps you all go back to talking about raids.
(edited by STIHL.2489)
“We’re looking into adding other things to spend Fractal Journals on, but I don’t think Golden Relics will be one of them. Journals are obtained only in the 1-50 range, while Golden Relics are obtained only in the 51-100 range.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Idea-Fractal-Journals-for-Golden-RelicsWow, I am not sure how many people who have not read the whole exchange, that I am now going to have to hold the hand of and walk them though the discussion, to show them how wrong they are, but, it seems that answer is going to be: More then One
With that said, lets have a hand holding walk-thorough. Do you see this chest: Chest of the Core Fractal Hero Now, I have gotten this chest, so I know what it is in it, I also know, you can get it without ever having done a fractal above 50, and you can get it without having a personal fractal level above 50, as I have done that as well.
So what’s in that chest? Oh right, a Golden Fractal Relic
So, your wrong as well. Next time, I suggest you actually know about the content you wish to talk about.
Good Day Sir.
How do you expect to prove a point by showing me a one time use achievement chest?
Honestly you just seem desperate here, I simply quoted a developer, so honestly you have zero argument here.
You have higher chances to get good drops on high scales and high level dailies have more rewards added to them which you can’t get in lower tier.
Anet confirmed multiple times higher scale dailies have higher chance on rare/good loot and simply finishing a high scale gives more EXP/loot than finishing the same fractal on a low scale, yet I’m wrong.
Yes, you are wrong, and the bold is why you are wrong.
As far as daily chests go, you can get better loot from a Level 12 Fractal Daily, then you can can from a level 83, because it’s all RNG.
Have a look at them, do you see any limitations?
Initiates Chest
Adepts Chest
Experts Chest
Masters ChestBetter Chances.. Maybe.. Exclusive Stuff.. Nope.
Now. I hope everyone is done showing how little they know about Fractals on a Raid topic, perhaps you all go back to talking about raids.
pretty ironic for someone who showed in a lot of previous post that he knows nothing about raid (particularly about raid rewards). again, maybe you should stick talking about content you know?
How do you expect to prove a point by showing me a one time use achievement chest?
You jumped into a discussion midway with no idea where the goal-post was, You might want to check that out before you jump in and take the wrong side in the future. That mistake is on you, not me.
pretty ironic for someone who showed in a lot of previous post that he knows nothing about raid (particularly about raid rewards). again, maybe you should stick talking about content you know?
Aww that’s not irony, as was 100% technically correct about what loot dropped, because I looked it up.
Irony is when make claims on other topics that you do raids for fun, yet here we are, 19 pages later, and over 20 pages on another topic, because you and your ilk are all hung up on the rewards needing to be what they are to make raids worth doing.
Now, THAT’s irony.
Aww that’s not irony, as was 100% technically correct about what loot dropped, because I looked it up.
Irony is when make claims on other topics that you do raids for fun, yet here we are, 19 pages later, and over 20 pages on another topic, because you and your ilk are all hung up on the rewards needing to be what they are to make raids worth doing.
Now, THAT’s irony.
Ah so you agree knowing nothing about raids, that’s a beginning.
Yes raids are fun, but rewards are still needed (cherry on the cake, you know).
Aww that’s not irony, as was 100% technically correct about what loot dropped, because I looked it up.
One time use achievement chest is not a loot or a drop though. Looks like you are still wrong.
here we are, 19 pages later, and over 20 pages on another topic
Original topic – Raid difficulty settings.
18 pages later – Raid difficulty settings + raid reward allocation.
19th page – You arguing with a dev comment about fractal rewards.
(edited by TheRandomGuy.7246)
Ok peeps…
Eventually we will have easier/normal/hard mode type raids. Yes, players will be rewarded appropriately. Yes, players will still have a path to legendary armors.
The devs will love it because there will be more players raiding and spending $ and gold to build their legendary armors…
The devs will see participation rates grow and invest more into making raids, and we will all have fun and get along like adults who play a game for fun.
Aww that’s not irony, as was 100% technically correct about what loot dropped, because I looked it up.
Irony is when make claims on other topics that you do raids for fun, yet here we are, 19 pages later, and over 20 pages on another topic, because you and your ilk are all hung up on the rewards needing to be what they are to make raids worth doing.
Now, THAT’s irony.
Ah so you agree knowing nothing about raids, that’s a beginning.
Yes raids are fun, but rewards are still needed (cherry on the cake, you know).
where… exactly… did he agree to any such thing… please point it out
yeh nah fractals still have locked rewards
even if you can get 1 golden fractal shard from the 21-50 chest (which i don’t think is even in the game anymore but idk) that still means that there’s still the difference in the 1-20
Oh, I’ve missed these threads. The off-topic side discussions, the out of the norm demands- it’s great to be back.
I’m not entirely sure what role easy mode raids are supposed to fill.
Training wheels for raids? Well, maybe. But most raids are set up to stack mechanics until it gets progressively harder and harder. That is, the first phase of each fight is the training mode.
An easier path to legendary? I think this is why people really want an easy mode. And, well, it’s not the best argument. “Let’s devote resources to develop an entirely different game mode, just so some players can get a tier of gear that provides no stat bonuses, is incredibly expensive, and for a skin that they don’t even know what is looks like.” This is why the legendary weapon team disbanded.
To provide for easier content (that some players find more enjoyable)? This is already in the game – Fractals and dungeons. There is no difference between a 5-man easy mode raid and a dungeon. The only argument I’ve heard is “But I don’t get to fight sabetha!” Well, an easy mode would not be “sabetha” because it wouldn’t have the same mechanics. And we don’t have easy mode of other bosses, like lupi or the aether path foreman.
So why do we want easy modes again?
Read my op.
Nobody is asking to redo the entire game mode… This is not rocket science either.
See the boons you can use in the training area? That could easily be used. Timer settings? Easy too…
There are reasonable and simpler options to improve raids and generate interest.
I’m hesitant to speculate on the time it would take to generate easy mode raids. I believe all my counter arguments are applicable regardless of the time it takes to make.
That said, if you want easy mode raids to have meaningful, balanced rewards, that somewhat teaches the normal mode, then that probably takes a bit more than just tweaking some numbers.
Edit: Can we all agree to drop this golden fractal relic discussion? It’s very off topic, and only tangentially relevant. Who cares who was “right.”
(edited by Absurdo.8309)
Training wheels for raids? Well, maybe. But most raids are set up to stack mechanics until it gets progressively harder and harder. That is, the first phase of each fight is the training mode.
And yet numerous people can pass the first phase and not immediately pass the second, so clearly if it does train, it does so poorly. Some people enjoy failfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfail-succeed, others do not, and would decide early on that this process is not for them. An easy mode allows them to succeed relatively early on, and to learn from their successes rather than from their failures. This may not matter to you, but just accept as a fact that it matters to people who are not you.
An easier path to legendary? I think this is why people really want an easy mode. And, well, it’s not the best argument. “Let’s devote resources to develop an entirely different game mode, just so some players can get a tier of gear that provides no stat bonuses, is incredibly expensive, and for a skin that they don’t even know what is looks like.” This is why the legendary weapon team disbanded.
If the Legendary armor is interesting enough for raiders to care about then it’s interesting enough for non-raiders to care about. The argument is either that they should make it available to all players or to NO players, there is no valid argument that only raiders should have it.
To provide for easier content (that some players find more enjoyable)? This is already in the game – Fractals and dungeons. There is no difference between a 5-man easy mode raid and a dungeon. The only argument I’ve heard is “But I don’t get to fight sabetha!” Well, an easy mode would not be “sabetha” because it wouldn’t have the same mechanics. And we don’t have easy mode of other bosses, like lupi or the aether path foreman.
And yet there are easy mode versions of Mai Trin, Jade Maw, Thaumanova Anomaly, Archdiviner, etc. I beat Lupi the other night on my second try ever, he’s not all that hard, certainly not compared to Vale Guardian. Maybe you see no use in having an easy mode Sabetha, maybe the encounter would be entirely different for you, and that’s ok, you will ALWAYS have the hard mode available if that’s the version that appeals to you. Just accept as a fact that there are people who would genuinely enjoy an easier version that would never genuinely enjoy the existing one.
That said, if you want easy mode raids to have meaningful, balanced rewards, that somewhat teaches the normal mode, then that probably takes a bit more than just tweaking some numbers.
Having balanced rewards wouldn’t take more time, it just takes good sense. I mean, actually implementing it is just typing in what the rewards should be. The hard part is figuring out what they want them to be. But of course they can always tweak them a bit after launch if they are out of range. and just tweaking numbers is the best way to make it a teaching encounter, since if they change how anything actually operates then it would throw off any learning of the mechanics.
Aww that’s not irony, as was 100% technically correct about what loot dropped, because I looked it up.
One time use achievement chest is not a loot or a drop though. Looks like you are still wrong.
Except he isn’t, really. While golden relics indeed don’t drop below 51 from repeatable chests, they are not the reward. They are only tokens that are meant to make getting the real reward (gold fractal skins) easier. And gold fractal skins do drop at lower levels.
So in the end rewards are not gated by fractal levels, they are merely easier to get at higher ones. That’s a world of difference.
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Edit: Can we all agree to drop this golden fractal relic discussion? It’s very off topic, and only tangentially relevant. Who cares who was “right.”
I have got to agree with you, it was purely an issues of semantics on my part, and any reasonable person would have simply said something along the lines of “Ok, You’re right, you can get a gold relic by level 50, but that does not change the fact that they still level gated”
Any reasonable person would have had the reading comprehension to understand the statement in the first place lmao
An easy mode allows them to succeed relatively early on, and to learn from their successes rather than from their failures.
If you can succeed without failing, you also remove the ability to have an meaningful learning occur.
The argument is either that they should make it available to all players or to NO players, there is no valid argument that only raiders should have it.
You’re trying to section off “raiders” as some specific group, which is nonsense. The rewards are open to anyone willing to do the content, a setup we have seen time and time again in GW2.
And yet there are easy mode versions of Mai Trin, Jade Maw, Thaumanova Anomaly, Archdiviner, etc. I beat Lupi the other night on my second try ever, he’s not all that hard, certainly not compared to Vale Guardian. Maybe you see no use in having an easy mode Sabetha, maybe the encounter would be entirely different for you, and that’s ok, you will ALWAYS have the hard mode available if that’s the version that appeals to you. Just accept as a fact that there are people who would genuinely enjoy an easier version that would never genuinely enjoy the existing one.
And most people are perfectly fine with easy mode raids.
Yes varying difficulties should be available for instanced content.
I consider myself a casual player with work and other commitments I find it difficult to make myself available for a set time each week to raid with a raiding guild.
I also have played various other MMOs (not WoW) which has implemented very successfully 12 person dungeons with varying difficulty scales.
The balancing act is to make higher difficulty levels more rewarding (not just in terms of absolute reward but also reward/minute completing the raid) otherwise everyone would run the easiest difficulty level to get loot the fastest.
I have tried running a raid with a PuG and it just doesn’t work, the current difficulty is good for challenging content which it should be but the same content should be playable for regular players but with more time taken to acquire rewards at lower difficulty.
Easy mode raids are going to be a drain on resources (we want more normal raids not rehashes of old content).
Easy mode raids are going to cause instability in the design team (introducing this new goal will mess with future production – they now need to think “how will we deal with this mechanic for the easy mode?”).
Easy mode raids could overstretch the team and cause it to lag behind like the Legendary Weapon team and have it disbanded (this is a bad thing).
Easy mode raiding will devalue the prestige of items found in the real raid (Ohoni and his friends do not care about this but its still a fact people care about their items and how they aquire them).
Easy mode is unnecessary and being used purely as a protest point because some people who – if they spent as much time raiding as posting on forums – could get the rewards currently choose not to.
PS. Communism doesn’t work (no reason at all I’m mentioning this, none at all)
Who is we? Raiders? I certainly don´t want new raids. I did not even want the one we already have now
This is exactly why you should not be consulted on the future of raiding.
I have no idea why people wish to destroy something others love and they have no interest in participating in, other than spite. You are spiteful and have motives that should be considered dangerous and unhelpful to the development of raids.
You have failed to answer any of my points.
If you can succeed without failing, you also remove the ability to have an meaningful learning occur.
No.
What you learn from the experience is entirely up to you. Some people can only learn through failing repeatedly, and for that we have hard mode. Others have no interest in that, but can learn by succeeding repeatedly and refining their performance each time, and easy mode is for that. Again, there is absolutely no need for you to understand that this can happen, just accept that it DOES happen whether you understand or not.
You’re trying to section off “raiders” as some specific group, which is nonsense. The rewards are open to anyone willing to do the content, a setup we have seen time and time again in GW2.
ie "raiders.
The alternatives are for people who don’t fit into that group, whatever their reasons.
I have no idea why people wish to destroy something others love and they have no interest in participating in, other than spite. You are spiteful and have motives that should be considered dangerous and unhelpful to the development of raids.
Nobody wants to destroy raids, at least not as a primary goal. We want to be able to peacefully coexist with raids. You’re the one trying to make that difficult by either refusing any alternative, or making those alternatives worthless at their necessary functions.
We want to be able to peacefully coexist with raids.
But you already are
But you already are
No.
They work fine for you, they do not work fine for us, that’s the entire point. We would like a system that works for both of us. You get your raids the way you want them, we get our raids the way we want them, everyone is happy except for those that thrive on the unhappiness of others.
Nobody wants to destroy raids, at least not as a primary goal.
But will cause the destruction through secondary effects with a beaming smile on your face… (I will have to ask people to scroll up to see my list of reasons Easy Mode is a bad idea – while scrolling please take note of people saying “i never even wanted these raids and do not want more,” these people asking for raid changes want them dead and it occassionally slips out their fingers, do not believe them to be benign)
Seriously just go play other content, you don’t want to raid and we don’t want your hamfisted attempts to drag it down to your level happily letting it burn on the way down.
If you want the rewards, do the content.
(edited by Coulter.2315)
No.
Yes.
I am in the exact same boat as you and I’ve raided less in GW2 than you have, but I’m ‘peacefully coexisting’. I’m probably more at risk than you are because I frequently WvW and other people having trinkets that are completely inaccessible to me puts them at a very well-defined, actual advantage over me.
At this point I’m 100% convinced that Ohoni is throwing the biggest bait and is extremely bored.
Raids as a, lets say game mode, are by default something that requires a higher amount of skill, communication and concentration and are the most difficult content a game has to offer PvE-wise.
What you are trying to do is making a whole game mode adapt to you instead of adapting to said game mode or simply letting it be. This is completely nonsensical.
The only way an easy mode would ever make it into the game should be without any rewards or progress for anything related to raids whatsoever, so that it simply serves as training ground for the actual raid. However, I fear you’d complain that there are no rewards for what you’re doing and that it is a waste of time.
But even then, this would already devalue the items gained in raid as it would be much easier to see the mechanics, practice them and then move on to higher difficulties.
I’m genuinely curious though if you apply the same thing in real life; do you try to make everything adapt to you, even though it would be much more convenient for everyone (besides yourself, I guess) if you were the one adapting?
Raids as a, lets say game mode, are by default something that requires a higher amount of skill, communication and concentration and are the most difficult content a game has to offer PvE-wise.
What you are trying to do is making a whole game mode adapt to you instead of adapting to said game mode or simply letting it be. This is completely nonsensical.
Again, I have no interest in causing the game mode to adapt. The existing mode can stay 100% exactly as it is. No adaptation whatsoever.
What I’m asking for is merely an alternative, something that provides the elements that I believe most players would enjoy, while culling out the elements that most players do not. You’d be right to be upset if I were suggesting that the result would be the ONLY raid left in the game, it’s not the version you want; but I’m not asking for that, the version you enjoy would be left alone. This would be an alternative, for people who can’t enjoy the version you enjoy, and one that they can play without harming the version that you do enjoy.
The only way an easy mode would ever make it into the game should be without any rewards or progress for anything related to raids whatsoever, so that it simply serves as training ground for the actual raid.
No. Exclusive access to those rewards is not a part of the raid. The raid is about the challenging content involved. You may not like to share, but it’s something they teach in preschool now, as an adult, you’re expected to deal with it.
But even then, this would already devalue the items gained in raid as it would be much easier to see the mechanics, practice them and then move on to higher difficulties.
Again though, the proposal on the table is that even once they get rolling with easy modes, they would not make the easy mode versions available until months after the hard mode, so by that point, hard mode players will already have conquered the mechanics as much as they can be. Besides which, the complaints about “trivializing the achievement” died the instant that selling raids became an option. So long as any player can drop down a few gold and afk their way through a raid, ANY prestige in accomplishing the raid became COMPLETELY devalued, and there’s no more harm easy mode could possibly do it that concept.
I’m genuinely curious though if you apply the same thing in real life; do you try to make everything adapt to you, even though it would be much more convenient for everyone (besides yourself, I guess) if you were the one adapting?
The question does not apply here. I’m not trying to make it adapt to me personally at the expense of “everyone else.” Quite the opposite. The raiders were the ones that wanted to adapt the game to suit their tastes. I’m just trying to counterbalance that, to restore this element of the game to the one that does benefit the majority of the players, rather than just the few. I’ve already said, if it truly is just me that would benefit here, then I don’t want it, but I’ve seen no reason to believe that’s the case.
And yes, I do believe that theory applies to the real world as well, if you can benefit most of the people at the expense of an elitist few, then that’s what you should do.
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