Guild Wars 2

I have no connection to prestige items. I neither adore them or want to have them to show off, most legendary weapons are plain ugly or laughable and for furry fans like the pony bow. But I get how some people like that beside the ability legendaries have. Ok, fair enough.
I also have no connection to raids. Too much work, not thrilled by the idea of practicing at all. But I also get that some people like that. Fair enough too.
So far so good. Live and let live.

Where I disagree with raiders are the following points:
*Quality beats quantity when you want to aquire something. Gathering is much more easy and slower paced than hunting. Is it less valuable or productive, or does it devalue hunting? I think not.
*A taks needs an exclusive reward. I partly agree that a good reward is important. But a reward that is only available there is not good and makes no sense either. Why should any company restrict a good to a certain set of people? That makes no sense. Anyone who has the money can buy a Mercedes, nobody cares if it is an heir or a selfmade millionaire. Anet already understood this when they made both legendary stuff for wvw and pvp. Why not also do that for raids?

I would support the TP solution of Absurdo too instead of easy raids or wvw/pvp availability, although I would clearly prefer the last solution.

Torolan.5816:

Why should any company restrict a good to a certain set of people? That makes no sense. Anyone who has the money can buy a Mercedes, nobody cares if it is an heir or a selfmade millionaire.

Just read this again, read what you wrote.

[SPOILER] The price of the Mercades is a restriction on who can buy it…

As for your hunter/gatherer example, venison doesn’t grow on bushes – they result in different produce.

I agree that multiple modes for raids should be considered, and thank you Anet for for thinking about it. I always thought of GW2 as the mmo that tries to think outside the box of only just one way of getting something. Establishing an easier mode would give me more reasons to try it more than once a week and to stay in one a bit longer.

Coulter.2315:

Torolan.5816:

Why should any company restrict a good to a certain set of people? That makes no sense. Anyone who has the money can buy a Mercedes, nobody cares if it is an heir or a selfmade millionaire.

Just read this again, read what you wrote.

[SPOILER] The price of the Mercades is a restriction on who can buy it…

As for your hunter/gatherer example, venison doesn’t grow on bushes – they result in different produce.

So? You won´t find a car trader that does only accept a currency that was won from MMA fighting or something like that. So Anet is the trader here and we are the customers who would bring the money. I indeed fail to see the importance of the source of money for the offering party here. Quite the contrary, the more people buy my stuff, the better for me.

How many people would eat vension if they had to hunt it on their own and other meat was available like it is right now? I guess you would not reach a full %. And hunting vension is hunting and not gathering, not even foraging.

Torolan.5816:

Coulter.2315:

Torolan.5816:

Why should any company restrict a good to a certain set of people? That makes no sense. Anyone who has the money can buy a Mercedes, nobody cares if it is an heir or a selfmade millionaire.

Just read this again, read what you wrote.

[SPOILER] The price of the Mercades is a restriction on who can buy it…

As for your hunter/gatherer example, venison doesn’t grow on bushes – they result in different produce.

So? You won´t find a car trader that does only accept a currency that was won from MMA fighting or something like that. So Anet is the trader here and we are the customers who would bring the money. I indeed fail to see the importance of the source of money for the offering party here. Quite the contrary, the more people buy my stuff, the better for me.

How many people would eat vension if they had to hunt it on their own and other meat was available like it is right now? I guess you would not reach a full %. And hunting vension is hunting and not gathering, not even foraging.

I feel like we should avoid these types of analogies, as they are rarely relevant and contribute little to the discussion.

More relevant is that old legendaries were sellable on the trading post, while the new ones are not (and are mainly restricted to one game mode). There are pros and cons to this decision. We should also tie the legendary discussion back into easy mode raids.

Leggie Armor should be available in easy mode raids, done!

slashlizardy.9167:

Leggie Armor should be available in easy mode raids, done!

Nah.

slashlizardy.9167:

Leggie Armor should be available in easy mode raids, done!

Your wish is granted, since there is only one difficulty of raids all raids are easy mode there are no hard mode raids.

+1 Fermi. If the game gives too many options to players, it will inevitably fail to retain players. And seriously, It is hard, within this game, to find reasonable line between easy, medium or difficult simply because the game has strong mechanics and classes. Even thedifficulty that raids bring isn’t so hardcore, because even the players who really were interested in this kind of content, had a quite an easy time to figure out how to beat it

Torolan.5816:

Where I disagree with raiders are the following points:
*Quality beats quantity when you want to aquire something. Gathering is much more easy and slower paced than hunting. Is it less valuable or productive, or does it devalue hunting? I think not.
*A taks needs an exclusive reward. I partly agree that a good reward is important. But a reward that is only available there is not good and makes no sense either. Why should any company restrict a good to a certain set of people? That makes no sense. Anyone who has the money can buy a Mercedes, nobody cares if it is an heir or a selfmade millionaire. Anet already understood this when they made both legendary stuff for wvw and pvp. Why not also do that for raids?

1) Are you talking about the Difficulty vs Time vs Reward ratio?

2) Well they purposely limit the availability of Ferrari to make sure that they keep a certain value, same with Diamond. Rarity add value to items. It’s also about the effort behind an object. Take military medal for example. Their value isn’t only their price tag, it’s the effort and sacrifice behind it. If I took the time and effort to complete a challenging content. I’m proud of my achievement and if an Item is given as a reward from that challenging content, this item serve as a memento to that achievement. It give an additional value to that item and if that same item is given for a fractal of the effort, it remove that said value. I’m not saying that all item should have that or it should be the majority. But as long as it’s cosmetic items, I believe there is a place for that. The difficulty is to find a balance to not have too much of those either.

Leggie armor is not all cosmetic. It has equal to the best stats in the game and can be stat swapped. Combine that with swapping stats on leggie weaps and you have a great combo. And yes a balance between difficulty and time, would be my preferred approach to obtaining the reward, in this case, imho…

Absurdo.8309:

I’m resistant to “compromise” into easy mode raids. As I said above, I think it’s a suboptimal solution. Again, I think more dungeon and fractals is a superior answer.

And i actually agree on that point. I just prefer having a suboptimal solution implemented to waiting forever for a better one.

Absurdo.8309:

Edit: This solution is already in effect since you can buy raids. So do the content you like, earn gold at your pace, and then buy the runs.

What makes you think i’d want to pay for being able to group with people i wouldn’t want to group with even if you paid me?

Coulter.2315:

[SPOILER] The price of the Mercades is a restriction on who can buy it…

It is a soft restriction. You can work at a less paying job and buy a Merc, if you really want it, you will just need to work longer for it. The seller doesn’t care if you got the money working as a high rank corporate manager, or as a janitor.

flog.3485:

+1 Fermi. If the game gives too many options to players, it will inevitably fail to retain players.

Ah, but which option is the one too far? Because, you know, that argument can be used against current raids as well.

You want to void achievement and remove profitting and competition, you might not know it but you certainly are talking about behind the Iron Curtain.

No, I’m not, that just shows a profound misunderstanding of government and economics that we should not get into here.

Raids fill a niche that was not prevalent in the game (hard, instanced, pve content). Whereas easy mode raids would fill a niche already in the game (easy and medium instanced pve content).

True, but more content is more content, and the raid content fills a niche for a small portion of the players, while easy mode raids would provide new content for a much larger portion of the players, and at a much lower developmental cost than any equivalent alternative. I mean, we’ve had some disagreements around here about how much work easy mode raiding would take, but however much effort it does take, creating an original instanced content of equivalent scale would require every ounce of that work, PLUS new character models, new settings, new story, new reward structure, new encounter mechanics, and far more rigorous testing of the final product since it would have no precedent.

But as someone who likes both, I would rather see more fractals and dungeons. I can’t speak for others, but I’m less likely to complete the same content on an easier difficulty.

But for one thing, it’s not an “either/or” situation. We aren’t being offered new fractals or dungeons, and if we were, it would not be a tradeoff. As I noted above, those would take significantly more time and effort, so it’s not “three easy mode raid wings OR one new fractal, you pick!” It’s “9-12 easy mode raid wings or one new fractal.”

And while you might not care about the easy mode, since you already have the hard mode and it wouldn’t be much different, there are plenty of players for whom hard mode is a nonstarter, so to them, it would be completely new content. They are the target, not you, although if you find a reason to run them too then that’d be great.

However, even if I subscribed to this philosophy (and I’m somewhat sympathetic), easy mode raids are not the solution. The solution is to make everything sellable on the TP. That way, you could play how you want, and just buy the skin with the gold you earn. I’m actually not opposed to this solution (see gorseval aura), but I realize this implementation is unlikely.

No. Just like selling raid runs this is just an immensely self-serving philosophy. “I don’t want you to have what you want, but I’m willing to allow you to have the ‘prestigious’ rewards, so long as I can get my beak wet.” How magnanimous. No, raiders should not be profiting off of other players. If raiders do not think that the game rewards them enough for raiding, then push for better personal raid rewards, don’t push for more ways to gouge players that don’t raid. Raiders should not be the gatekeepers of who is allowed to have Legendary Armor.

[/quote]No. Just like selling raid runs this is just an immensely self-serving philosophy. “I don’t want you to have what you want, but I’m willing to allow you to have the ‘prestigious’ rewards, so long as I can get my beak wet.” How magnanimous. No, raiders should not be profiting off of other players. If raiders do not think that the game rewards them enough for raiding, then push for better personal raid rewards, don’t push for more ways to gouge players that don’t raid. Raiders should not be the gatekeepers of who is allowed to have Legendary Armor.[/quote]

This part, you are saying raiders should push for better rewards great we agree, they did this by giving raiders the promise of Legendary Armor, this statement by you goes against your whole assertion that non- raiders should be given the same rewards for a fraction of the effort, which would devalue the raiders better personal reward.

And right before that you say that people should have easy modes so they can experience the content/ story, that would be a good idea but shouldn’t provide the better personal reward that the regular raids provide.

flog.3485:

+1 Fermi. If the game gives too many options to players, it will inevitably fail to retain players.

Ah, but which option is the one too far? Because, you know, that argument can be used against current raids as well.

[/quote]
@ Astralporing Sorry I should have been more precise: giving too many options to players to obtain legendary armor will not retain players: the moment you give an option that presents itself as the path of the least resistance, players will burn the content as fast as possible and then complain in forums that there isn’t much to do. Besides, the people that do care about hard content will feel betrayed and as the population of players who enter raids dwindle because most of other players just get their legendary by not entering the normal raid mode, Anet will just spread themselves too thin to try supporting each mode of raids, until it is eventually scrapped. So no, no easy mode raiding which grants a legendary gear

This part, you are saying raiders should push for better rewards great we agree, they did this by giving raiders the promise of Legendary Armor, this statement by you goes against your whole assertion that non- raiders should be given the same rewards for a fraction of the effort, which would devalue the raiders better personal reward.

I don’t mean that raiders should have exclusive access to rewards. I mean that they can get additional reward. If a raider can sell a raid run to a player for X amount of gold, then it’s reasonable for the game to just give that player that X amount of gold (although for inflationary reasons it can be in materials or something). Instead of dropping some rare infusion that they can sell for several hundred gold, just drop several hundred gold worth in otherwise common items. Reward raiders WITHOUT exploiting non-raiders.

Again non-raiders should have access to all the same rewards as raiders, but only if they put in MORE work than raiders put in to earn them.

@ Astralporing Sorry I should have been more precise: giving too many options to players to obtain legendary armor will not retain players: the moment you give an option that presents itself as the path of the least resistance, players will burn the content as fast as possible and then complain in forums that there isn’t much to do.

That would be raiding then. Raiding would be the fastest way to get it. Easy mode raiding would be easier, but take more time, so if that’s the path they take, it would retain them longer than the existing raiding. There is no model in which easy mode raiding with full rewards would lead to players leaving the game sooner than the current model.

I don’t really care whethere there is easy mode raids are not. I predicted before even HoT was released that the armor would be a HUGE point of contention between raiders and non-raiders. This is simply due to the fact that before the expansion the only exclusive rewards for each type of content were different skins with the same functionalities.

As a couple examples:
1) Glorious armor in PvP was just a skin with exact same stats as other exotic gear found in dungeons, crafted, in WvW or as drops anywhere in game and it also functioned exactly the same too without stat swappability.

2)Ascended gear boxes were available not only through fractals where they were first introduced but eventually expanded to world bosses, WvW and PvP reward tracks too along with being able to craft the armor and weapons as well. While rings are still most easily obtained through fractals they are no longer the exclusive source. The only exclusive rewards from fractals are now the weapon “skins”.

Now non-raiders wouldn’t really care if the exclusive reward for raids were only exclusive skins (except maybe Ohoni). But when the armor has an exclusive functionality then that should be available to all players and not just raiders.

Also note that raiding requires specific builds with specific runes and as such the stat swappability feature will never be used within raids. It will only be used by raiders to exploit non-raiders with other content in the game which are not currently dominated by the raiders.(selling dungeon runs, fractals etc). I’m not about to let that happen. And before you ask, yes, legendary armor makes soloing a lot of content possible; just need a little imagination and the runes not being able to be swapped won’t even be an issue.

And,in conclusion, that is why i support legendary armor outside of raids or at least the on-demand stat swappability feature to be available outside of raids in the open world PvE.

Now nobody in this thread is saying they aren’t willing to work for it. But what I am saying is that a lot of people are not willing to “raid” for it. According to the “against easy mode raids” posters here apparently raids are the only content that requires work to clear and that is simply not true.

Thaddeus.4891:

Torolan.5816:

Where I disagree with raiders are the following points:
*Quality beats quantity when you want to aquire something. Gathering is much more easy and slower paced than hunting. Is it less valuable or productive, or does it devalue hunting? I think not.
*A taks needs an exclusive reward. I partly agree that a good reward is important. But a reward that is only available there is not good and makes no sense either. Why should any company restrict a good to a certain set of people? That makes no sense. Anyone who has the money can buy a Mercedes, nobody cares if it is an heir or a selfmade millionaire. Anet already understood this when they made both legendary stuff for wvw and pvp. Why not also do that for raids?

1) Are you talking about the Difficulty vs Time vs Reward ratio?

2) Well they purposely limit the availability of Ferrari to make sure that they keep a certain value, same with Diamond. Rarity add value to items. It’s also about the effort behind an object. Take military medal for example. Their value isn’t only their price tag, it’s the effort and sacrifice behind it. If I took the time and effort to complete a challenging content. I’m proud of my achievement and if an Item is given as a reward from that challenging content, this item serve as a memento to that achievement. It give an additional value to that item and if that same item is given for a fractal of the effort, it remove that said value. I’m not saying that all item should have that or it should be the majority. But as long as it’s cosmetic items, I believe there is a place for that. The difficulty is to find a balance to not have too much of those either.

1. No. I am talking about the validity of an argument that puts gathering and foraging at the same level of usefulness as hunting. Gathering is surely not as exciting as hunting, but no less useful than hunting. Some people are hunters by nature, most are not and would prefer to not risk their live in hunting big game. Times have changed. Remember the dentist who shot that lion in the national park in Africa some months ago? The kittenstorm was immense, although he did technically not break a law.

2. Ferrari does not limit the number of “commonly” available Ferrari because they don´t want to sell more, but because the demand for more is not there. You are right when you say that Ferrari limits the production runs for certain models so that they become exclusive. This would basically mean that if you want to go for that, you would have to make seasons in raids and turn them off after the season is done to achieve the same effect.
You can always buy a Ferarri of an older series for a scalpers price. You actually can´t buy a raid reward on the TP, you can only buy a ride in this special Ferrari when you are carried. Then you rode that Ferrari so often that the car salesman gives you an old Ferrari of the not limited production run because he has no buyers for it anyway.

Talking about medals, let´s take the two extrmes here, a medal of good conduct and the silver star:
A medal of good conduct is rather easy to get. You fullfil your duty and go home every day. Any soldier can get it.
A silver star is reserved for the bravest of the brave. Only a slelected view will ever get it.
Who is the more valuable soldier? Let´s take a look at the battle of Kursk for example, the biggest tank battle in history:
Military historian agree that von Mahnstein, Model and Guderian were vastly superior tacticians compared to Konjew and his generals. The german soldier was better equipped, more experienced and had some confidence from the only slightly waning initiative in the Blitzkrieg. T34 tanks could not even penetrate the front armor of the Panther tank. All Konjew had were numbers, mines and shovels.

So what brought the Germans down?
Wasted Time and logistics. German tank aces could bring down as many T34 as they wanted, the Russians always showed up for more in even bigger numbers, with tanks straight out of the production lines.
It was the sacrifice of the common, unsung soldiers with their medals of good conduct that turned the tide, not the selected few silver star bearers(or the Hero of the Sowjetunion equivalent).

Again, I am not talking about personal excitement here, but validity and the claim to get special rewards by performing common deeds.

1) Glorious armor in PvP was just a skin with exact same stats as other exotic gear found in dungeons, crafted, in WvW or as drops anywhere in game and it also functioned exactly the same too without stat swappability.

Also, Glorious armor was super easy to earn with minimal PvP effort, and Glorious Hero armor was just the same thing with a little sparkle to it, and so rare that it may as well be a unicorn so who cares? Legendary armor will not be quite so rare, putting it in the “hot, but approachable” category.

Ohoni.6057:

1) Glorious armor in PvP was just a skin with exact same stats as other exotic gear found in dungeons, crafted, in WvW or as drops anywhere in game and it also functioned exactly the same too without stat swappability.

Also, Glorious armor was super easy to earn with minimal PvP effort, and Glorious Hero armor was just the same thing with a little sparkle to it, and so rare that it may as well be a unicorn so who cares? Legendary armor will not be quite so rare, putting it in the “hot, but approachable” category.

So approach it then and stop asking for it knocked unconcious and handed to you, try working for something…

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4glido/ivt_3g_budget_raid_wing_1_clear_in_masterwork_gear/

First wing got cleared with a complete green equipped raid. We don’t need an easy mode.

So approach it then and stop asking for it knocked unconcious and handed to you, try working for something…

Again, I’m asking for a way to work for it, you’re the one that insists I should be paying someone else to knock it on the head for me.

First wing got cleared with a complete green equipped raid. We don’t need an easy mode.

Yes we do. Marathon runners can cover 20 miles in about two hours, that doesn’t mean there’s no reason everyone for else to have cars. The achievements of a very few do not remove the need for adaptations for the many. When you can point to a random pug of nonsense players that can run it in greens, then you can talk about how we don’t need an easier mode.

Ohoni.6057:

So approach it then and stop asking for it knocked unconcious and handed to you, try working for something…

Again, I’m asking for a way to work for it, you’re the one that insists I should be paying someone else to knock it on the head for me.

First wing got cleared with a complete green equipped raid. We don’t need an easy mode.

Yes we do. Marathon runners can cover 20 miles in about two hours, that doesn’t mean there’s no reason everyone for else to have cars. The achievements of a very few do not remove the need for adaptations for the many. When you can point to a random pug of nonsense players that can run it in greens, then you can talk about how we don’t need an easier mode.

Your marathon analogy actually proves further that we don’t need an easy mode. Marathon runners do it for the challenge, not to get from a to b. Same as most raiders do the bosses for the fights and not the loot. But if you don’t do the challenge you won’t get the reward (medals for marathon; legendary armor for raids).

ArenaNet already said, that raid participation exceeded the expectations, you don’t know how many are the ‘few’ and the ‘many’ are. It’s not like classic WoW were only 500 people killed the last boss.

Your marathon analogy actually proves further that we don’t need an easy mode. Marathon runners do it for the challenge, not to get from a to b.

sure, and those that want to do it for the challenge can do it the hard way, and those that just want to get from a to b can do it the easy way, everyone wins.

Ohoni.6057:

Your marathon analogy actually proves further that we don’t need an easy mode. Marathon runners do it for the challenge, not to get from a to b.

sure, and those that want to do it for the challenge can do it the hard way, and those that just want to get from a to b can do it the easy way, everyone wins.

Yeah just ignore the rest of the post and miss the point. Marathons are challenges not about getting from a to b. Raids are challenges, you can get statistical equal loot from other places.

Yeah just ignore the rest of the post and miss the point. Marathons are challenges not about getting from a to b. Raids are challenges, you can get statistical equal loot from other places.

Yes, and people who want to do the raids as a challenge can do the hard mode. Someone beating an easy mode raid takes zero of the prestige or challenge away from beating the raid on hard mode, just as some pug beating the raid in full ascended does not take anything away from that group that beat it in greens.

But for players that just want to get from A to B, they can take a bike. They aren’t in it for the challenge, they don’t care about the challenge, they shouldn’t be restricted by those players that do.

Yes, and people who want to do the raids as a challenge can do the hard mode. Someone beating an easy mode raid takes zero of the prestige or challenge away from beating the raid on hard mode, just as some pug beating the raid in full ascended does not take anything away from that group that beat it in greens.
.

Except that since you want raid rewards in easy mode, you want to take away the prestige out of it.
And don’t tell that “the ship is already sailed” since people can buy it. The amount of people buying raid is very very low, especially compared to people who could beat your easy mode raid ( remember, you want to put the difficulty level very low in order to be able to beat it…)

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah just ignore the rest of the post and miss the point. Marathons are challenges not about getting from a to b. Raids are challenges, you can get statistical equal loot from other places.

Yes, and people who want to do the raids as a challenge can do the hard mode. Someone beating an easy mode raid takes zero of the prestige or challenge away from beating the raid on hard mode, just as some pug beating the raid in full ascended does not take anything away from that group that beat it in greens.

But for players that just want to get from A to B, they can take a bike. They aren’t in it for the challenge, they don’t care about the challenge, they shouldn’t be restricted by those players that do.

They aren’t restricted to raids, a to b = statistical equal loot and that is already available in other places. If you don’t want to do the challenge accept that you won’t get the rewards for it.
The fact that you can beat it in greens just amplifies that we don’t need an easy mode for people who put zero effort into beating the bosses. Not all content is meant for everybody.

flog.3485:

@ Astralporing Sorry I should have been more precise: giving too many options to players to obtain legendary armor will not retain players: the moment you give an option that presents itself as the path of the least resistance, players will burn the content as fast as possible and then complain in forums that there isn’t much to do.

But there isn’t much to do. I’m not going to do raids as they are now anyway, after all.

flog.3485:

Besides, the people that do care about hard content will feel betrayed and as the population of players who enter raids dwindle because most of other players just get their legendary by not entering the normal raid mode,

Why they should feel betrayed? It just meant that those other people were never in this for the content. Either a majority of raiders do like the content they play in, in which case there’s no need of exclusive rewards to keep the population up (having simply good rewards would be sufficient), or most are in there for the exclusives, not challenge, and any claims that raids are a resounding success because “so many people like them” are false.

Besides, if it’s the leg armor that is the main draw, then once that runs out (after people will obtain it), population of raids will come crashing down anyway. That reward mode is simply unsustainable in the long run. It works with old style hamster wheels, because new raids will keep getting better gear, but that doesn’t work in GW2. That’s even if there will be new raids, which at this moment seems really doubtful.

In short, a year from now, as far as raid incentives ae concerned, it won’t matter whether that legendary will be accessible by other means or not. All raiders that will be capable of obtaining it will have it already (and there aren’t that many new players coming in this game anymore).

Except that since you want raid rewards in easy mode, you want to take away the prestige out of it.

Nope. Guy approaches the finishline in a marathon, another guy zips past on a bike, nobody says "wow, that second guy was so much faster. People beating easy mode in no way reduces the prestige of people beating hard mode, just as people beating hard mode with Ascended gear does not reduce the prestige of those beating it in greens that Miellyn referenced.

And don’t tell that “the ship is already sailed” since people can buy it. The amount of people buying raid is very very low, especially compared to people who could beat your easy mode raid ( remember, you want to put the difficulty level very low in order to be able to beat it…)

That’s irrelevant. If even one person can get credit without deserving it then it devalues the whole process if you view it in such stark terms. People beating it on easy mode would at least not get the full achievements and titles associated with hard mode, so the person buying a run cheapens the prestige far more.

To put it in marathon terms, the easy mode people are clearly on bikes, everyone knows they were on bikes. The run-buyer took a shortcut but slipped in the the other joggers near the finish-line, and becomes indistinguishable from someone who legitimately completed it.

The number of people who beat easy mode is completely irrelevant to the prestige of beating hard mode, since it’s not beating hard mode. To make your argument is like saying that people beating Fractal 25 removes any prestige from people beating Frac 100.

They aren’t restricted to raids, a to b = statistical equal loot and that is already available in other places.

That’s not what it means in my analogy. In my analog, A to B means clearing the raid’s content (in a less challenging format), and acquiring the Legendary armor. People who want prestige, who want to be recognized for doing it the hard way, can and will have to do it the hard way. People who just want to have fun with the content and acquire some legendary armor can take the easy mode.

The fact that you can beat it in greens just amplifies that we don’t need an easy mode for people who put zero effort into beating the bosses.

No, it doesn’t at all. It’s no easier today to beat the boss than it was yesterday, it’s just that a few people were able to do something pretty impressive. That makes it no easier to complete for the people currently unable to complete it.

Not all content is meant for everybody.

But it can be.

Nope. Guy approaches the finishline in a marathon, another guy zips past on a bike, nobody says "wow, that second guy was so much faster. People beating easy mode in no way reduces the prestige of people beating hard mode, just as people beating hard mode with Ascended gear does not reduce the prestige of those beating it in greens that Miellyn referenced.

Irrelevant. I’m talking about reward here, not beating the content. If the guy in bike has the same medal than the guy who run the marathon (which is what you want, btw), than you can be sure that there would be no prestige anymore.

That’s irrelevant. If even one person can get credit without deserving it then it devalues the whole process if you view it in such stark terms. People beating it on easy mode would at least not get the full achievements and titles associated with hard mode, so the person buying a run cheapens the prestige far more.

You forget the legendary armor, which is, for Anet, the prestige reward behind raid. Even for you it’s prestigious, if not you wouldn’t spend so many hours trying to make argument here.

The number of people who beat easy mode is completely irrelevant to the prestige of beating hard mode, since it’s not beating hard mode. To make your argument is like saying that people beating Fractal 25 removes any prestige from people beating Frac 100.

Irrelevant. Of course the number is important. The damage you’re willing to make to the raids by making raid rewards available for everyone is far more important than the buyers. At least, they put some effort in earning gold. You, you dont want to put a single effort.
Oh, and btw, many buyers buy raid for the achievements, not for the rewards…so the numbers are even smaller.

Ohoni.6057:

Nope. Guy approaches the finishline in a marathon, another guy zips past on a bike, nobody says “wow, that second guy was so much faster”.

Question! Who gets a trophy in your analogy?

Irrelevant. I’m talking about reward here, not beating the content.

You said, and I quote “Except that since you want raid rewards in easy mode, you want to take away the prestige out of it.”

Rewards have nothing to do with prestige. Which are you talking about? Pick one and be consistent.

If the guy in bike has the same medal than the guy who run the marathon (which is what you want, btw), than you can be sure that there would be no prestige anymore.

No, I don’t want any medals. Medals can stay restricted to hard mode. I just want the experience and the Legendary armor.

You forget the legendary armor, which is, for Anet, the prestige reward behind raid. Even for you it’s prestigious, if not you wouldn’t spend so many hours trying to make argument here.

No, I don’t particularly care about prestige. I mean, I had the full set of Luminous armor back when that was kind of hard to get, and only wear bits and pieces on only some of my characters, none wearing a full set of it. I’ll almost certainly do the same with Legendary, but I do care about having the bits that I want excluded from me. Obviously I can’t know how much, if any I’ll actually care about getting until they start releasing pics, but it’s safe to assume they won’t so completely drop the ball that none of them will interest me.

At least, they put some effort in earning gold. You, you dont want to put a single effort.

I’m willing to put forth effort. You guys are the ones saying “you just want it handed to you,” while I’ve repeatedly said that I want nothing of the sort. I want to have to work at it, just as much as you do, I just want to work at it in a mode that I would enjoy doing just as much as you enjoy playing hard mode. It should take me MORE time and effort to acquire that way, not less, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make in the name of balance.

I sort of think you have some bogey-man version of me that you’re fighting against, and ignoring the actual things I say when they don’t match up with your imaginary friend.

Oh, and btw, many buyers buy raid for the achievements, not for the rewards…so the numbers are even smaller.

Well those, at least, would continue doing so with or without easy mode. Of course you never know, people buying raids for achievements might also be collecting what they need for Legendaries. I thought I heard that one of the ingredients you could collect just by visiting a cleared raid each week, maybe they’re doing that as well.

Question! Who gets a trophy in your analogy?

Nobody, it’s a fun-run, the point is to enjoy yourself.

Ohoni.6057:

You said, and I quote “Except that since you want raid rewards in easy mode, you want to take away the prestige out of it.”

Rewards have nothing to do with prestige. Which are you talking about? Pick one and be consistent.

Legendary gear = prestige items according to anet.

Ohoni.6057:

Question! Who gets a trophy in your analogy?

Nobody, it’s a fun-run, the point is to enjoy yourself.

Too bad that we are discussing rewards in a multiplayer game and not charity or fun events.

You said, and I quote “Except that since you want raid rewards in easy mode, you want to take away the prestige out of it.”

Rewards have nothing to do with prestige. Which are you talking about? Pick one and be consistent.

OK, who are you trying to fool here? Rewards ARE part of the prestige. No reward, no prestige.

No, I don’t want any medals. Medals can stay restricted to hard mode. I just want the experience and the Legendary armor.

Again, legendary armor is part of the medal (à big part)

I’m willing to put forth effort. You guys are the ones saying “you just want it handed to you,” while I’ve repeatedly said that I want nothing of the sort. I want to have to work at it, just as much as you do, I just want to work at it in a mode that I would enjoy doing just as much as you enjoy playing hard mode. It should take me MORE time and effort to acquire that way, not less, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make in the name of balance.

Hmm, and what is your effort again? Spamming 1, dont care about damage and wipe (because you dont want wipe mechanisms, remember), dont care about composition, build, food, gear etc…ah Yes, you’re willing to spend more times than us, who, that’s a big sacrifice here…3 times as us, if I remember correctly ( and btw, second wing for exemple just need one clear to have all)
So no, for me it’s not effort, it’s à little grind that’s all. If you want to work like us, go raiding.

Astralporing.1957:

flog.3485:

@ Astralporing Sorry I should have been more precise: giving too many options to players to obtain legendary armor will not retain players: the moment you give an option that presents itself as the path of the least resistance, players will burn the content as fast as possible and then complain in forums that there isn’t much to do.

But there isn’t much to do. I’m not going to do raids as they are now anyway, after all.

flog.3485:

Besides, the people that do care about hard content will feel betrayed and as the population of players who enter raids dwindle because most of other players just get their legendary by not entering the normal raid mode,

Why they should feel betrayed? It just meant that those other people were never in this for the content. Either a majority of raiders do like the content they play in, in which case there’s no need of exclusive rewards to keep the population up (having simply good rewards would be sufficient), or most are in there for the exclusives, not challenge, and any claims that raids are a resounding success because “so many people like them” are false.

Besides, if it’s the leg armor that is the main draw, then once that runs out (after people will obtain it), population of raids will come crashing down anyway. That reward mode is simply unsustainable in the long run. It works with old style hamster wheels, because new raids will keep getting better gear, but that doesn’t work in GW2. That’s even if there will be new raids, which at this moment seems really doubtful.

In short, a year from now, as far as raid incentives ae concerned, it won’t matter whether that legendary will be accessible by other means or not. All raiders that will be capable of obtaining it will have it already (and there aren’t that many new players coming in this game anymore).

Dude I really don’t know what to tell you. All your assumptions about raids are based on the fact that you have a very pessimistic opinion of the future of GW2. The patch did address issues and people will inevitably be coming back…yes raiders will feel betrayed because it is exactly like people spending time and resources building a legendary weapon from the game and then see some rich bloke coming into the game, converting lots of money into gems and then into gold to buy it off the TP and yes people like the raids because they both offer some challenge and some exclusive rewards. It just goes hands in hands: you think it it shouldn’t be tied because on a personal level you can’t stand the fact that you need to face any form of challenge whatsoever to get some rewards. If raids are a success according to Anet metrics then you can’t say that only raiders who liked raids in other games came to raid in gw2: there is a part of casual in the game that just accepts challenges and like the combat system to “git better at it”. No, the people who will get the legendary armor will not stop raiding the moment they get their gear: they will continue raiding for the simple enjoyment of beating some content with friends and the social aspect of raids will take over because they have had fun running raids and meeting new people who came raiding just like players had fun running dungeons and repeating them ad nauseam. What will be the future of raids? I can’t really tell but I just can’t agree with you. To me it feels like this: the players who got their legendary will be able to try new composition of teams with the ability of switching stats on demand and in the long run it will serve the benefit of new players who come into this instance for reward or enjoyment because the veteran raiding runners will easily adapt to team composition

Legendary gear = prestige items according to anet.

They shouldn’t be. They’re costume skins, not trophies.

Too bad that we are discussing rewards in a multiplayer game and not charity or fun events.

You said trophies, not rewards. Everyone would get rewards, that’s part of the fun.

OK, who are you trying to fool here? Rewards ARE part of the prestige. No reward, no prestige.

So you’re saying that Miellyn’s people who beat the raid in greens don’t have or deserve any prestige for that feat? It would only have prestige if they got some fancy hat? Prestige is not a commodity, you can’t buy, sell, or trade it. Prestige is the respect people offer you based on your accomplishments, it has nothing to do with rewards.

Again, legendary armor is part of the medal (à big part)

It definitely shouldn’t be.

Hmm, and what is your effort again? Spamming 1, dont care about damage and wipe (because you dont want wipe mechanisms, remember), dont care about composition, build, food, gear etc…ah Yes, you’re willing to spend more times than us, who, that’s a big sacrifice here…3 times as us, if I remember correctly ( and btw, second wing for exemple just need one clear to have all)
So no, for me it’s not effort, it’s à little grind that’s all. If you want to work like us, go raiding.

I’m flexible as to the exact amount of work it would entail, I want to arrive at a result that is fair to both parties. I want the amount of time and effort to end up being at least equivalent, erring on the side of easy mode taking more time and effort, I just don’t find the existing raids at all fun, and would find an easy mode raid more fun, so that’s the mode I want to expend that time and effort in.

…yes raiders will feel betrayed because it is exactly like people spending time and resources building a legendary weapon from the game and then see some rich bloke coming into the game, converting lots of money into gems and then into gold to buy it off the TP

Sure, but currently they DO allow players to come in with purchased gold and buy raid runs, so it’s a moot point. So long as raiders condone run selling, they have no grounds to challenge an easy mode on “prestige” or “fairness”.

If raids are a success according to Anet metrics then you can’t say that only raiders who liked raids in other games came to raid in gw2:

I’m still very skeptical of this oft-repeated claim. Raids are still a very new thing, and people dabbling in it early on will not necessarily translate to long term success. I don’t think “raids are doing great, now and forever!” is really the message to take from that.

Ohoni.6057:

They shouldn’t be. They’re costume skins, not trophies.

But they are. Like it or not but they are a prestige item since the release of the game.

They shouldn’t be. They’re costume skins, not trophies.

Too bad anet doesn’t think like you. Since the beginning of the game, legendary is more than costume skins.

So you’re saying that Miellyn’s people who beat the raid in greens don’t have or deserve any prestige for that feat? It would only have prestige if they got some fancy hat? Prestige is not a commodity, you can’t buy, sell, or trade it. Prestige is the respect people offer you based on your accomplishments, it has nothing to do with rewards.

Of course it’s prestigious that they can do that (and I know it better than you, because, you know, I raid à lot). What I’m saying is rewards are part of the prestige.
The problem is that you know that easy raids are not as prestigious as normal raid. So you’re trying to split reward from prestige, so you can legitimately claim armor in easy raid.

It definitely shouldn’t be.

Maybe, for you. For Anet and people like me, it should be.

But they are. Like it or not but they are a prestige item since the release of the game.

Oh, since the beginning of the game? No, those have never been prestige items. Expensive, yeah, prestigious, lol no.

But if they want Legendary items to be prestige items in future? No, bad idea. They should change their mind about that, as they’ve changed their minds about numerous features. As the old saying goes, the battleplan never survives first contact. The only real mistake is to not then adapt it to changing conditions.

Since the beginning of the game, legendary is more than costume skins.

Well, costume skins with like footprints and stuff, but still just costume skins.

Of course it’s prestigious that they can do that (and I know it better than you, because, you know, I raid à lot). What I’m saying is rewards are part of the prestige.

They really aren’t. You can buy the rewards with gold, there are plenty of prestigious actions that offer no rewards. The two things are entirely distinct, you’re just trying to conflate the two because you want exclusive access to the rewards.

The problem is that you know that easy raids are not as prestigious as normal raid. So you’re trying to split reward from prestige, so you can legitimately claim armor in easy raid.

A few posts ago you were insisting that I wanted prestige, at least we’re moving forward.

Maybe, for you. For Anet and people like me, it should be.

Well, and that’s fine if that’s how you feel, so long as you don’t try to leverage those personal feelings to limit my access to those skins.

Ohoni.6057:

But they are. Like it or not but they are a prestige item since the release of the game.

Oh, since the beginning of the game? No, those have never been prestige items. Expensive, yeah, prestigious, lol no.

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

Ohoni.6057:

Except that since you want raid rewards in easy mode, you want to take away the prestige out of it.

Nope. Guy approaches the finishline in a marathon, another guy zips past on a bike, nobody says "wow, that second guy was so much faster. People beating easy mode in no way reduces the prestige of people beating hard mode, just as people beating hard mode with Ascended gear does not reduce the prestige of those beating it in greens that Miellyn referenced.

And don’t tell that “the ship is already sailed” since people can buy it. The amount of people buying raid is very very low, especially compared to people who could beat your easy mode raid ( remember, you want to put the difficulty level very low in order to be able to beat it…)

That’s irrelevant. If even one person can get credit without deserving it then it devalues the whole process if you view it in such stark terms. People beating it on easy mode would at least not get the full achievements and titles associated with hard mode, so the person buying a run cheapens the prestige far more.

To put it in marathon terms, the easy mode people are clearly on bikes, everyone knows they were on bikes. The run-buyer took a shortcut but slipped in the the other joggers near the finish-line, and becomes indistinguishable from someone who legitimately completed it.

The number of people who beat easy mode is completely irrelevant to the prestige of beating hard mode, since it’s not beating hard mode. To make your argument is like saying that people beating Fractal 25 removes any prestige from people beating Frac 100.

They aren’t restricted to raids, a to b = statistical equal loot and that is already available in other places.

That’s not what it means in my analogy. In my analog, A to B means clearing the raid’s content (in a less challenging format), and acquiring the Legendary armor. People who want prestige, who want to be recognized for doing it the hard way, can and will have to do it the hard way. People who just want to have fun with the content and acquire some legendary armor can take the easy mode.

Skins are the medals from raids.

The fact that you can beat it in greens just amplifies that we don’t need an easy mode for people who put zero effort into beating the bosses.

No, it doesn’t at all. It’s no easier today to beat the boss than it was yesterday, it’s just that a few people were able to do something pretty impressive. That makes it no easier to complete for the people currently unable to complete it.

It proves that raids in their current form are ideal for the middle ground gamer or even a bit below that. You don’t need to dumb down content to the lowest common denominator. If you introduce an easy mode, there will be still people who think it’s too hard or requires too much effort. Do you add a scale below that if it happens? Or are you happy if you get your shinies with no effort and don’t care about the people ‘below’ you?

Not all content is meant for everybody.

But it can be.

No it can’t. Different taste/interests.
And having interests in the rewards without wanting to do the content doesn’t qualifies a nerf so you can get the rewards.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Ohoni.6057:

Nope. Guy approaches the finishline in a marathon, another guy zips past on a bike, nobody says “wow, that second guy was so much faster”.

Question! Who gets a trophy in your analogy?

The first one. Notice however that the only function of that trophy is prestige. If someone wanted it for a different reason (i.e. because they think it looks cool and would look great on the shelf) they most likely can easily (and cheaply) buy a perfect replica from an internet shop.

Legendary armor is not that kind of trophy. That function in GW2 is fulfilled by titles.

flog.3485:

If raids are a success according to Anet metrics then you can’t say that only raiders who liked raids in other games came to raid in gw2

I’m not saying that. I am saying that the “metrics” do not show how many people truly like raids and how many are in there only (or primarily) for these exclusive rewards.

flog.3485:

No, the people who will get the legendary armor will not stop raiding the moment they get their gear: they will continue raiding for the simple enjoyment of beating some content with friends and the social aspect of raids will take over because they have had fun running raids and meeting new people who came raiding just like players had fun running dungeons and repeating them ad nauseam.

If it is so, then saying that unlocking legendary armor to non-raiders will make raiders stop raiding is untrue.

Either people will stop raiding once they get LA in easy mode which will kill raids, but then the same will happen once they’ll get it in current mode (which will happen faster), or they will continue raiding even after obtaining legendary, but then obtaining it in other modes will also not make them stop playing.

You cannot have both.

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

It may have been their intent, but it was never in practice.

Skins are the medals from raids.

No, medals are medals, skins are skins.

Look, if they want to release two version, the raid armor and the not-raid version, and the skins are 100% identical except for a medal pinned on the chest, then I’ll concede the point, that would be fine. But otherwise, no, skins are not medals. Titles can be medals, nametag flair can be medals, there are various things that can be medals, but actual changes to the character model, no, NOT medals.

It proves that raids in their current form are ideal for the middle ground gamer or even a bit below that.

It doesn’t REMOTELY prove that. The team you cited were very clearly not middle-ground gamers. Middleground gamers spend hours in the raid and don’t progress, and no matter how well the very top players do, that does not make it any easier for those below them.

If you introduce an easy mode, there will be still people who think it’s too hard or requires too much effort. Do you add a scale below that if it happens?

Again, you scale it to the level of the rest of the game. If it’s roughly as difficult as the rest of the game, then it’s a “take it or leave it” situation. If you can’t beat that raid then you can’t beat anything else, so what would be the point of playing at all? The problem with the existing raids is that they are tuned so high above the rest of the game, that there are plenty of players who can do anything else in the game easily enough but still find the raid more frustrating than fun.

Not all content is meant for everybody.

But it can be.

No it can’t. Different taste/interests.

So, would you argue that hard mode raids are not for all players? That perhaps there are players who would more enjoy a lower challenge version? They should get on that.

And having interests in the rewards without wanting to do the content doesn’t qualifies a nerf so you can get the rewards.

But it could, and then more people would be happy.

Ohoni.6057:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

It may have been their intent, but it was never in practice.

It was never in practice because you said so?

Ohoni.6057:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

It may have been their intent, but it was never in practice.

Hate to break it to you but this is how legendaries work and are viewed.

Ohoni.6057:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

It may have been their intent, but it was never in practice.

Skins are the medals from raids.

No, medals are medals, skins are skins.

Look, if they want to release two version, the raid armor and the not-raid version, and the skins are 100% identical except for a medal pinned on the chest, then I’ll concede the point, that would be fine. But otherwise, no, skins are not medals. Titles can be medals, nametag flair can be medals, there are various things that can be medals, but actual changes to the character model, no, NOT medals.

But medals change the appearance…

It proves that raids in their current form are ideal for the middle ground gamer or even a bit below that.

It doesn’t REMOTELY prove that. The team you cited were very clearly not middle-ground gamers. Middleground gamers spend hours in the raid and don’t progress, and no matter how well the very top players do, that does not make it any easier for those below them.

Yeah and they prove you can do it with around 40-45% less damage (32% less stats). ArenaNet said it’s tuned towards ascended. So if you can do it with ~40-45% less damage the actual tuning is fine for the middle ground with the intended equipment.

If you introduce an easy mode, there will be still people who think it’s too hard or requires too much effort. Do you add a scale below that if it happens?

Again, you scale it to the level of the rest of the game. If it’s roughly as difficult as the rest of the game, then it’s a “take it or leave it” situation. If you can’t beat that raid then you can’t beat anything else, so what would be the point of playing at all? The problem with the existing raids is that they are tuned so high above the rest of the game, that there are plenty of players who can do anything else in the game easily enough but still find the raid more frustrating than fun.

So you want to press 1 once and afk the rest of the fight? Yes thats the difficulty of open world pre HoT. Which is most likely what you want.
Sorry that goes against everything ArenaNet wants raids to be. A challenge.

People who can do everything easily except raids don’t exist in this game.

Not all content is meant for everybody.

But it can be.

No it can’t. Different taste/interests.

So, would you argue that hard mode raids are not for all players? That perhaps there are players who would more enjoy a lower challenge version? They should get on that.

There are no hard mode raids. And there won’t be hard mode raids if you get your easy mode. It is and will be still normal mode. The actual tuning doesn’t equal the description hard mode only because you don’t like challenges.

Yes raids or the playstile of raids are not for every player.

And having interests in the rewards without wanting to do the content doesn’t qualifies a nerf so you can get the rewards.

But it could, and then more people would be happy.

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards. And the vast majority doesn’t care about legendary armor as it is nowhere required.

And with that ‘point’ everything from junk to finished legendaries should drop from every open world mob/pvp reward path/wvw loot bag or someone could feel excluded because he thinks it’s to much effort or doesn’t want to do the content. Just adjust the droprates and everything is fine and everyone is happy right?

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

Notice that skill is not mentioned here. Just wealth and time investment. They may be “prestige” items, but it’s a different type of prestige than the one that is constantly referenced in this discussion.

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

Yes! That’s the whole point! Of course, you do realize that it’s an argument against exclusive rewards in raids, right? And a really kitten ing one at that?