Guild Wars 2

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

Notice that skill is not mentioned here. Just wealth and time investment. They may be “prestige” items, but it’s a different type of prestige than the one that is constantly referenced in this discussion.

Times change. Every single legendary in HoT is wealth, time and skill locked.

Sird.4536:

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Ohoni is the one who wants legendary armor for everyone through an easy mode raid.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

Notice that skill is not mentioned here. Just wealth and time investment. They may be “prestige” items, but it’s a different type of prestige than the one that is constantly referenced in this discussion.

Times change. Every single legendary in HoT is wealth, time and skill locked.

Skill locked? What skill do you need to get HoT legendaries?

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Ohoni.6057:

Nope. Guy approaches the finishline in a marathon, another guy zips past on a bike, nobody says “wow, that second guy was so much faster”.

Question! Who gets a trophy in your analogy?

The first one. Notice however that the only function of that trophy is prestige. If someone wanted it for a different reason (i.e. because they think it looks cool and would look great on the shelf) they most likely can easily (and cheaply) buy a perfect replica from an internet shop.

Legendary armor is not that kind of trophy. That function in GW2 is fulfilled by titles.

flog.3485:

If raids are a success according to Anet metrics then you can’t say that only raiders who liked raids in other games came to raid in gw2

I’m not saying that. I am saying that the “metrics” do not show how many people truly like raids and how many are in there only (or primarily) for these exclusive rewards.

flog.3485:

No, the people who will get the legendary armor will not stop raiding the moment they get their gear: they will continue raiding for the simple enjoyment of beating some content with friends and the social aspect of raids will take over because they have had fun running raids and meeting new people who came raiding just like players had fun running dungeons and repeating them ad nauseam.

If it is so, then saying that unlocking legendary armor to non-raiders will make raiders stop raiding is untrue.

Either people will stop raiding once they get LA in easy mode which will kill raids, but then the same will happen once they’ll get it in current mode (which will happen faster), or they will continue raiding even after obtaining legendary, but then obtaining it in other modes will also not make them stop playing.

You cannot have both.

True, these metrics do not show how many truly like raids but in the end it is totally irrelevant. What matters here is the participation rate of raids. As for legendary armor obtained elsewhere, let’s not lose the focus of my argument: I am mostly against easy mode raid granting legendary, as in the pve-focus players should get only one way to obtain legendary gear, which is the current raids.

Sird.4536:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

Notice that skill is not mentioned here. Just wealth and time investment. They may be “prestige” items, but it’s a different type of prestige than the one that is constantly referenced in this discussion.

Times change. Every single legendary in HoT is wealth, time and skill locked.

Skill locked? What skill do you need to get HoT legendaries?

For fractals:
level 53 Underground Facility Fractal with an 80% reduction to healing
level 54 Aetherblade Fractal with an 80% reduction to healing
level 100 Captain Mai Trin Boss Fractal in under 25 minutes (reset bug is fixed so gonna do it in 1 go without dying)
3 other collections require 80% reduction too but are below 50
For pvp:
Cross enough divisions in 2016 to get a precursor.
For open world:
Be good in the open world. Easy for some and “omg I am dying all the time” for others.
For raids:
Do raids weekly.

flog.3485:

True, these metrics do not show how many truly like raids but in the end it is totally irrelevant. What matters here is the participation rate of raids.

Ah, but does that participation rate tells us tha raids are a success, or maybe that raid rewards are a success? Because, you know, those are two very different things.

flog.3485:

As for legendary armor obtained elsewhere, let’s not lose the focus of my argument: I am mostly against easy mode raid granting legendary, as in the pve-focus players should get only one way to obtain legendary gear, which is the current raids.

The reason you supplied for it few posts back was that you don’t want that to happen. because people will get through that content, obtain rewards and then claim they have nothing to do. I pointed out that raids are in the same situation, only worse (because easy mode would be a slower way), to which you countered that no, Raiders are for some unexplainable reason different.

No, as i have pointed out already, you can’t have both.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Sird.4536:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

Notice that skill is not mentioned here. Just wealth and time investment. They may be “prestige” items, but it’s a different type of prestige than the one that is constantly referenced in this discussion.

Times change. Every single legendary in HoT is wealth, time and skill locked.

Skill locked? What skill do you need to get HoT legendaries?

For fractals:
level 53 Underground Facility Fractal with an 80% reduction to healing
level 54 Aetherblade Fractal with an 80% reduction to healing
level 100 Captain Mai Trin Boss Fractal in under 25 minutes (reset bug is fixed so gonna do it in 1 go without dying)
3 other collections require 80% reduction too but are below 50
For pvp:
Cross enough divisions in 2016 to get a precursor.
For open world:
Be good in the open world. Easy for some and “omg I am dying all the time” for others.
For raids:
Do raids weekly.

So this thread went from wanting easy mode raids to wanting easy mode legendary armour to wanting easy mode HoT legendaries to wanting easy mode back legendaries.

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

Notice that skill is not mentioned here. Just wealth and time investment. They may be “prestige” items, but it’s a different type of prestige than the one that is constantly referenced in this discussion.

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

Yes! That’s the whole point! Of course, you do realize that it’s an argument against exclusive rewards in raids, right? And a really kitten ing one at that?

And you can buy raids, so in the end, it is still based on your wealth.

Sird.4536:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Sird.4536:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

Notice that skill is not mentioned here. Just wealth and time investment. They may be “prestige” items, but it’s a different type of prestige than the one that is constantly referenced in this discussion.

Times change. Every single legendary in HoT is wealth, time and skill locked.

Skill locked? What skill do you need to get HoT legendaries?

For fractals:
level 53 Underground Facility Fractal with an 80% reduction to healing
level 54 Aetherblade Fractal with an 80% reduction to healing
level 100 Captain Mai Trin Boss Fractal in under 25 minutes (reset bug is fixed so gonna do it in 1 go without dying)
3 other collections require 80% reduction too but are below 50
For pvp:
Cross enough divisions in 2016 to get a precursor.
For open world:
Be good in the open world. Easy for some and “omg I am dying all the time” for others.
For raids:
Do raids weekly.

So this thread went from wanting easy mode raids to wanting easy mode legendary armour to wanting easy mode HoT legendaries to wanting easy mode back legendaries.

No idea man. Just reminding some people that legendaries are, indeed, a prestige item and that everything now requires some sort of skill.

Astralporing.1957:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

Notice that skill is not mentioned here. Just wealth and time investment. They may be “prestige” items, but it’s a different type of prestige than the one that is constantly referenced in this discussion.

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

Yes! That’s the whole point! Of course, you do realize that it’s an argument against exclusive rewards in raids, right? And a really kitten ing one at that?

Thats an argument against everything, just drop everything from junk to finished legendaries from every open world map/wvw loot bag/pvp reward track and everyone will be happy right?

Welcome to the era of entitlement where people want to give minimal effort to gain rewards they do not otherwise deserve.

Yes meeting the equipments means raiders deserve the special reward of Legendary armor, if you don’t meet the requirements or put forth the effort then you do not deserve them it’s a pretty simple concept, again all Legendaries have requirements you must meet be it a cash gate, time gate, or skill gate. I pvp/ WvW guess what if I want legendary armor I have to do raids which I do I don’t do any other PvE so therefore I most likely won’t see the FoTM back piece or any other legendary weapon barring buying it from the TP since I probably won’t ever do Map completion which is a requirement for All Legendary weapons. Guess what I don’t complain and that gear is gated behind content I don’t enjoy so I don’t let it bother me.

Again there are easy mode raids in game since there is only one raid difficulty, it has been proven on multiple occasions that A. You do not need BiS gear to complete, B. You do not need a full 10 man Raid group to complete. C. Pugs are able to clear current raids, D. You can purchase raid clears for gold which is essentially the same as purchasing a Legendary weapon off of the TP of you don’t want to put any effort towards it.

Again saying raid clear sales exploits players yet you don’t claim the same about people that Sell Legendaries on the TP?

Astralporing.1957:

flog.3485:

True, these metrics do not show how many truly like raids but in the end it is totally irrelevant. What matters here is the participation rate of raids.

Ah, but does that participation rate tells us tha raids are a success, or maybe that raid rewards are a success? Because, you know, those are two very different things.

flog.3485:

As for legendary armor obtained elsewhere, let’s not lose the focus of my argument: I am mostly against easy mode raid granting legendary, as in the pve-focus players should get only one way to obtain legendary gear, which is the current raids.

The reason you supplied for it few posts back was that you don’t want that to happen. because people will get through that content, obtain rewards and then claim they have nothing to do. I pointed out that raids are in the same situation, only worse (because easy mode would be a slower way), to which you countered that no, Raiders are for some unexplainable reason different.

No, as i have pointed out already, you can’t have both.

Of course raiders will be in a different position, they will have to struggle a bit before being able to complete the current raids. In easy mode stuff…….well I hope you get the idea. We have enough content imo that consists in a spamming fest where you farm easy stuff in such a long fashion to get stuff done and get something exclusive. Why not push the limits of the game a bit more far where skill will matter a lot more?

Ohoni and Astralporing are the type of people who are destroying MMORPGs for years now.

Either you are for or against exclusive rewards.
If you are against them you have to include everything in every game mode with minimal effort. Everything is exclusive to a certain extend unless you get it everywhere for free.
If you are pro exclusive rewards, you have to accept that there will be rewards that you may not get.

Miellyn.6847:

Ohoni and Astralporing are the type of people who are destroying MMORPGs for years now.

Either you are for or against exclusive rewards.
If you are against them you have to include everything in every game mode with minimal effort. Everything is exclusive to a certain extend unless you get it everywhere for free.
If you are pro exclusive rewards, you have to accept that there will be rewards that you may not get.

I completely agree, I have no idea where this “everything for everyone!” mentality comes from.. Whats wrong with seeing someone in the world and knowing “Oh they like PvP, look at their backpack.” or “Oh they like fractals and SAB, look at their weapons.”

There is nothing wrong with exclusivity in rewards they add to your character and are tokens of the content you enjoy, they also give people motivation to try a variety of content – if everythig in game could be gained from [insert something mindless and easy] you’d find it the focus of most people’s play time (which isn’t good for a game which wants to support multiple communities like GW2).

Effort and reward are good things to encourage and we should not dilute this game in either category.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Welcome to the era of entitlement where people want to give minimal effort to gain rewards they do not otherwise deserve.

The only people talking about minimal effort here are raiders.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Yes meeting the equipments means raiders deserve the special reward of Legendary armor, if you don’t meet the requirements or put forth the effort then you do not deserve them it’s a pretty simple concept, again all Legendaries have requirements you must meet be it a cash gate, time gate, or skill gate.

Meeting those do not make you more or less deserving of them. It merely makes you able to obtain them.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again saying raid clear sales exploits players yet you don’t claim the same about people that Sell Legendaries on the TP?

That’s because they offer only convenience. Anyone capable of getting enough gold to buy a legendary off tp is capable of getting that legendary directly. Buying it is only a (costly) shortcut.

Also, i don’t intend to defend any restrictions that make getting legedaries harder by, say, WvW or sPvP players, saying that it’s okay because they can buy them. In fact, the few times it has been brought up on those forums, i supported making legends easier to get in those gamemodes, even if this doesn’t help me in the slightest.

See the difference?

Miellyn.6847:

Thats an argument against everything, just drop everything from junk to finished legendaries from every open world map/wvw loot bag/pvp reward track and everyone will be happy right?

Not quite. It’s an argument against exclusivity, not against effort per se. And yeah, WvW/sPvP should indeed have ways of obtain rewards they want, and reward tracks are a good step into that direction.

Besides, you were the one that brought up that argument. Did you think that it somehow only applied to content you, personally don’t like?

Coulter.2315:

Whats wrong with seeing someone in the world and knowing “Oh they like PvP, look at their backpack.” or “Oh they like fractals and SAB, look at their weapons.”

Nothing. It’s far better than looking at someone and thinking “Huh, they’re wearing raid armor. Poor them, they must have really hated getting it”. Which is the way of thinking you currently advocate.

Coulter.2315:

Miellyn.6847:

Ohoni and Astralporing are the type of people who are destroying MMORPGs for years now.

Either you are for or against exclusive rewards.
If you are against them you have to include everything in every game mode with minimal effort. Everything is exclusive to a certain extend unless you get it everywhere for free.
If you are pro exclusive rewards, you have to accept that there will be rewards that you may not get.

I completely agree, I have no idea where this “everything for everyone!” mentality comes from.. Whats wrong with seeing someone in the world and knowing “Oh they like PvP, look at their backpack.” or “Oh they like fractals and SAB, look at their weapons.”

There is nothing wrong with exclusivity in rewards they add to your character and are tokens of the content you enjoy, they also give people motivation to try a variety of content – if everythig in game could be gained from [insert something mindless and easy] you’d find it the focus of most people’s play time (which isn’t good for a game which wants to support multiple communities like GW2).

Effort and reward are good things to encourage and we should not dilute this game in either category.

And if you just want exclusive rewards removed from game modes you don’t enjoy or can’t complete you are not better than those ‘toxic’ raider that defend their raid rewards.

Per my prior post, Anet should explore the possibility of Tiered rewards not only for raids but for dungeons/fractals as well. Imagine if you solo a dungeon you get 10x the reward instead of the present, or do a fractal in half the time your reward doubles. Think about it Anet, that would entice a lot more people into doing them and also increase the competition among players.

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Welcome to the era of entitlement where people want to give minimal effort to gain rewards they do not otherwise deserve.

The only people talking about minimal effort here are raiders.

Maybe you should read the responses from Ohoni from time to time. He wants the easy mode on a difficulty level similiar to open world pre HoT. That equals zero effort.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Yes meeting the equipments means raiders deserve the special reward of Legendary armor, if you don’t meet the requirements or put forth the effort then you do not deserve them it’s a pretty simple concept, again all Legendaries have requirements you must meet be it a cash gate, time gate, or skill gate.

Meeting those do not make you more or less deserving of them. It merely makes you able to obtain them.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again saying raid clear sales exploits players yet you don’t claim the same about people that Sell Legendaries on the TP?

That’s because they offer only convenience. Anyone capable of getting enough gold to buy a legendary off tp is capable of getting that legendary directly. Buying it is only a (costly) shortcut.

Also, i don’t intend to defend any restrictions that make getting legedaries harder by, say, WvW or sPvP players, saying that it’s okay because they can buy them. In fact, the few times it has been brought up on those forums, i supported making legends easier to get in those gamemodes, even if this doesn’t help me in the slightest.

See the difference?

How is legendary armor different from legendary weapons? Weapons on the TP cost more than crafting them directly. Add the cost from raid runs to the armor cost and it is the same.

Miellyn.6847:

Thats an argument against everything, just drop everything from junk to finished legendaries from every open world map/wvw loot bag/pvp reward track and everyone will be happy right?

Not quite. It’s an argument against exclusivity, not against effort per se. And yeah, WvW/sPvP should indeed have ways of obtain rewards they want, and reward tracks are a good step into that direction.

Besides, you were the one that brought up that argument. Did you think that it somehow only applied to content you, personally don’t like?

Raids are a form of effort.
Rewards through effort are exclusive to people able or willing to do the tasks. How do people which don’t want to do the tasks get them if exclusive rewards are bad?

I hate WvW but like the armors from the reward tracks. But I would never demand adding them to PvE or PvP.

Coulter.2315:

Whats wrong with seeing someone in the world and knowing “Oh they like PvP, look at their backpack.” or “Oh they like fractals and SAB, look at their weapons.”

Nothing. It’s far better than looking at someone and thinking “Huh, they’re wearing raid armor. Poor them, they must have really hated getting it”. Which is the way of thinking you currently advocate.

Yeah so what is wrong seeing people in raid armor and thinking ‘Whoa they completed the raid and the collections to get the armor’? Instead you just think ‘kitten ANet they got legendary armor through the raid which i can’t or don’t want to complete’.

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Welcome to the era of entitlement where people want to give minimal effort to gain rewards they do not otherwise deserve.

The only people talking about minimal effort here are raiders.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Yes meeting the equipments means raiders deserve the special reward of Legendary armor, if you don’t meet the requirements or put forth the effort then you do not deserve them it’s a pretty simple concept, again all Legendaries have requirements you must meet be it a cash gate, time gate, or skill gate.

Meeting those do not make you more or less deserving of them. It merely makes you able to obtain them.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again saying raid clear sales exploits players yet you don’t claim the same about people that Sell Legendaries on the TP?

That’s because they offer only convenience. Anyone capable of getting enough gold to buy a legendary off tp is capable of getting that legendary directly. Buying it is only a (costly) shortcut.

Also, i don’t intend to defend any restrictions that make getting legedaries harder by, say, WvW or sPvP players, saying that it’s okay because they can buy them. In fact, the few times it has been brought up on those forums, i supported making legends easier to get in those gamemodes, even if this doesn’t help me in the slightest.

See the difference?

Miellyn.6847:

Thats an argument against everything, just drop everything from junk to finished legendaries from every open world map/wvw loot bag/pvp reward track and everyone will be happy right?

Not quite. It’s an argument against exclusivity, not against effort per se. And yeah, WvW/sPvP should indeed have ways of obtain rewards they want, and reward tracks are a good step into that direction.

Besides, you were the one that brought up that argument. Did you think that it somehow only applied to content you, personally don’t like?

Coulter.2315:

Whats wrong with seeing someone in the world and knowing “Oh they like PvP, look at their backpack.” or “Oh they like fractals and SAB, look at their weapons.”

Nothing. It’s far better than looking at someone and thinking “Huh, they’re wearing raid armor. Poor them, they must have really hated getting it”. Which is the way of thinking you currently advocate.

Making an easier raid that will allow people to ignore mechanics and giving the same rewards means that it requires minimal effort, making the “easy modes” take longer to acquire said item does not increase the effort, all content (excluding WvW) have Legendaries that are only attainable by doing said content making them gated requiring skill and effort.

Anyone that can save up the money to buy raids clears can clear the raids and get the Legendary armor themselves they just choose to pay and take the shortcut to getting it done, raid sales are offering a convenience, of carrying you to victory, you can have any spec, any gear and still get the raids cleared by buying raids. Anyone is capable of obtaining Legendary armor you just have to do the content that offers it called raids, you can’t obtain something if you don’t put the effort to getting it.

With your own argument I can say Legendary weapons are unobtainable because I don’t want to do map completion. Doesn’t matter that I can buy it on the TP because that’s exploiting my unwillingness to do map completion.

It is perfectly fine that there are items that are hated behind specific content, not everyone will do that content because they don’t like it therefore they won’t benefit from those rewards.

Sird.4536:

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Hoographic wings are a skin. Legendary armor is not a skin, it has stats. It is not a tier on its own, but it clearly is an upgrade from ascended. It baffles me that there are people who think that only if the upgrade does not seem relevant to them, it is also not relevant to everyone else. I am also baffled by Anet who think that hiding a casual oriented item like a legendary armor that also can´t swap runes in a hard PvE content is a good idea in any way except for shoehorning casual people into it.

Torolan.5816:

Sird.4536:

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Hoographic wings are a skin. Legendary armor is not a skin, it has stats. It is not a tier on its own, but it clearly is an upgrade from ascended. It baffles me that there are people who think that only if the upgrade does not seem relevant to them, it is also not relevant to everyone else. I am also baffled by Anet who think that hiding a casual oriented item like a legendary armor that also can´t swap runes in a hard PvE content is a good idea in any way except for shoehorning casual people into it.

It’s not an upgrade. It is convenience and mostly useless due to runes. You can get multiple sets of ascended armor for the same price with matching runes.

so lets assume then that convenience is not an upgrade and it is useless for raiders anyway. Why is it gated and coveted by raiders then?

Because it takes effort to get it is probably your answer. A real skin would basically have the same effect if it of no use to you anyway, or not?
The other reasons I can imagine raiders could want to keep it gated could be that
a) raids as content are a house of cards.
b) no one else should have it but them.
c) to show off
which are all not exactly pro arguments if you ask me. Neither in sustainability, gaming community or any social terms.

Torolan.5816:

so lets assume then that convenience is not an upgrade and it is useless for raiders anyway. Why is it gated and coveted by raiders then?

Because it takes effort to get it is probably your answer. A real skin would basically have the same effect if it of no use to you anyway, or not?
The other reasons I can imagine raiders could want to keep it gated could be that
a) raids as content are a house of cards.
b) no one else should have it but them.
c) to show off
which are all not exactly pro arguments if you ask me. Neither in sustainability, gaming community or any social terms.

Because nobody else need it either. It’s just prestige, just like legendary items were originally intended.

So it was floating freely and you were just lucky that it landed in raids? Or rather unlucky because you can´t use it anyway? If it does not have the job to pull people in, why is it in raids if it is clearly an item many people would make if it was not gated?^^

I am curious, what are your thoughts for a blue raid and a red wvw legendary armor then?

Torolan.5816:

Sird.4536:

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Hoographic wings are a skin. Legendary armor is not a skin, it has stats. It is not a tier on its own, but it clearly is an upgrade from ascended. It baffles me that there are people who think that only if the upgrade does not seem relevant to them, it is also not relevant to everyone else. I am also baffled by Anet who think that hiding a casual oriented item like a legendary armor that also can´t swap runes in a hard PvE content is a good idea in any way except for shoehorning casual people into it.

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”. Again all content(minus WvW) has specific legendary gear gated behind it so why shouldn’t Raids? Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else, Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE, Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Torolan.5816:

So it was floating freely and you were just lucky that it landed in raids? Or rather unlucky because you can´t use it anyway? If it does not have the job to pull people in, why is it in raids if it is clearly an item many people would make if it was not gated?^^

I am curious, what are your thoughts for a blue raid and a red wvw legendary armor then?

Not different colors, completly different models. Then I’m fine.

And my main is ranger/druid, the only class that actually benefits from legendary armor in PvE. You can run multiple stat combinations with monk runes.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Torolan.5816:

Sird.4536:

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Hoographic wings are a skin. Legendary armor is not a skin, it has stats. It is not a tier on its own, but it clearly is an upgrade from ascended. It baffles me that there are people who think that only if the upgrade does not seem relevant to them, it is also not relevant to everyone else. I am also baffled by Anet who think that hiding a casual oriented item like a legendary armor that also can´t swap runes in a hard PvE content is a good idea in any way except for shoehorning casual people into it.

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”. Again all content(minus WvW) has specific legendary gear gated behind it so why shouldn’t Raids? Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else, Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE, Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

What if I say that I find exclusive gating distateful and wrong in every type of content, despite being an avid fractal runner and wvw player(silver infanterist)?
A casual player would use the armor to see what he likes to play and changes it if he doesn´t like it anymore. A meta player will play meta and only change if it changes, from pirate ship to space ship or wherever it will devolve further into.
If you can walk to your own drum, some people will begin a long journey on their own. If they are whiped on the way, some people simply refuse to walk. I expect most casuals to be people like this, elsewise they would already raid.

Torolan.5816:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Torolan.5816:

Sird.4536:

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Hoographic wings are a skin. Legendary armor is not a skin, it has stats. It is not a tier on its own, but it clearly is an upgrade from ascended. It baffles me that there are people who think that only if the upgrade does not seem relevant to them, it is also not relevant to everyone else. I am also baffled by Anet who think that hiding a casual oriented item like a legendary armor that also can´t swap runes in a hard PvE content is a good idea in any way except for shoehorning casual people into it.

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”. Again all content(minus WvW) has specific legendary gear gated behind it so why shouldn’t Raids? Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else, Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE, Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

What if I say that I find exclusive gating distateful and wrong in every type of content, despite being an avid fractal runner and wvw player(silver infanterist)?
A casual player would use the armor to see what he likes to play and changes it if he doesn´t like it anymore. A meta player will play meta and only change if it changes, from pirate ship to space ship or wherever it will devolve further into.
If you can walk to your own drum, some people will begin a long journey on their own. If they are whiped on the way, some people simply refuse to walk. I expect most casuals to be people like this, elsewise they would already raid.

A casual player would never finish the armor with the information we already have (300 Provisioner Tokens, similiar T6 mats as in legendary weapons, similiar gold cost).

And effort is a form of exclusive gating.

Torolan.5816:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Torolan.5816:

Sird.4536:

Miellyn.6847:

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

Hoographic wings are a skin. Legendary armor is not a skin, it has stats. It is not a tier on its own, but it clearly is an upgrade from ascended. It baffles me that there are people who think that only if the upgrade does not seem relevant to them, it is also not relevant to everyone else. I am also baffled by Anet who think that hiding a casual oriented item like a legendary armor that also can´t swap runes in a hard PvE content is a good idea in any way except for shoehorning casual people into it.

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”. Again all content(minus WvW) has specific legendary gear gated behind it so why shouldn’t Raids? Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else, Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE, Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

What if I say that I find exclusive gating distateful and wrong in every type of content, despite being an avid fractal runner and wvw player(silver infanterist)?
A casual player would use the armor to see what he likes to play and changes it if he doesn´t like it anymore. A meta player will play meta and only change if it changes, from pirate ship to space ship or wherever it will devolve further into.
If you can walk to your own drum, some people will begin a long journey on their own. If they are whiped on the way, some people simply refuse to walk. I expect most casuals to be people like this, elsewise they would already raid.

Again they are not forced to run the content, it is a reward for the players that like the style of content/ want the reward for completing the content, there is no stat advantage over easily obtainable gear, that is a lot cheaper and easier to acquire, no one is being whipped to obtain it since there is no advantage to owning it besides convenience and looks, every single content in game should have unique rewards to that game mode.

I for example would obtain it over time, like I did with ascended armor and weapons. And I am as casual as they come in game due to a full time job and simple unwillingness to play differently.
Casually reaching wolf rank in pvp, silver infanterist in wvw or having every success in fractals was easy and seemed effortless over time too. That is the type of content I am looking for in GW2.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”.

Nope, just a long term goal. Yu can’t get them in day, a week, even a month, but if you really want it, you will eventually get it. Or at least it was like that for the past legendaries.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else

yet, as you noticed, a legendary backpack has two different ways of acquisition. It’s only a skin that is exclusive.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE

Untrue. There was at least a handful of those given out as rewards for sPvP tournaments. Besides, map completion is a really low threshold to pass.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Raid is the first of such gamemodes that is in itself extremely exclusive. That is the problem.

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”.

Nope, just a long term goal. Yu can’t get them in day, a week, even a month, but if you really want it, you will eventually get it. Or at least it was like that for the past legendaries.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else

yet, as you noticed, a legendary backpack has two different ways of acquisition. It’s only a skin that is exclusive.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE

Untrue. There was at least a handful of those given out as rewards for sPvP tournaments. Besides, map completion is a really low threshold to pass.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Raid is the first of such gamemodes that is in itself extremely exclusive. That is the problem.

Yeah and if you also noticed, one is in PvE, one in PvP. There goes the argument we need an easy mode for raids. Which was the point of the thread.

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”.

Nope, just a long term goal. Yu can’t get them in day, a week, even a month, but if you really want it, you will eventually get it. Or at least it was like that for the past legendaries.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else

yet, as you noticed, a legendary backpack has two different ways of acquisition. It’s only a skin that is exclusive.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE

Untrue. There was at least a handful of those given out as rewards for sPvP tournaments. Besides, map completion is a really low threshold to pass.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Raid is the first of such gamemodes that is in itself extremely exclusive. That is the problem.

Legendary Weapons are Exclusively blocked behind Open world PvE, there are no ifs, ands, or buts, about it, you must complete Map completion to acquire them normally otherwise you cannot get it. Now on the issue of the back pieces FoTM and PvP both have gates that most casuals will never get FoTM being an instances PvE content requires you to be able to complete FoTM 100 which has an actual Gear requirement or you will fail, sPvP has an actual time gate and skill requirement or you will never get it.

See every type of content minus WvW has gated Legendaries. open world PvE shouldn’t have access to every single type of legendary just because you want it. The game wants you to experience everything about it to give value/ meaning to what was made so they hate specific rewards to specific content.

This is shown by you must do X to receive Y… Simple concept of you don’t do X you don’t get Y.

Now I will use yours and Ohoni’s logic, I don’t like Open world PvE/ Map Completion but I want Incinerator because it’s shiny I can’t get it unless I do said contnent, I don’t want to do that content so Anet should make it so I get every single Poi, Vista, Heart, and WP for just entering each zone so I can acquire The pieces for Incinerator. Since it’s too much Work and hassle, and because I really hate Open World PvE to run around these huge maps completing the requirements to get map completion normally.

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”.

Nope, just a long term goal. Yu can’t get them in day, a week, even a month, but if you really want it, you will eventually get it. Or at least it was like that for the past legendaries.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else

yet, as you noticed, a legendary backpack has two different ways of acquisition. It’s only a skin that is exclusive.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE

Untrue. There was at least a handful of those given out as rewards for sPvP tournaments. Besides, map completion is a really low threshold to pass.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Raid is the first of such gamemodes that is in itself extremely exclusive. That is the problem.

Okay. Who’s saying that there will never be some sort of legendary armor outside of raids? Did anet state it anywhere?

Also, how are raids excluding people? Please tell me because they sure as hell are not.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”.

Nope, just a long term goal. Yu can’t get them in day, a week, even a month, but if you really want it, you will eventually get it. Or at least it was like that for the past legendaries.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else

yet, as you noticed, a legendary backpack has two different ways of acquisition. It’s only a skin that is exclusive.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE

Untrue. There was at least a handful of those given out as rewards for sPvP tournaments. Besides, map completion is a really low threshold to pass.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Raid is the first of such gamemodes that is in itself extremely exclusive. That is the problem.

Okay. Who’s saying that there will never be some sort of legendary armor outside of raids? Did anet state it anywhere?

Also, how are raids excluding people? Please tell me because they sure as hell are not.

The "Exclusion"is them not wanting to put the effort in.

Ohoni.6057:

Gw2 FAQ:
What’s so special about Legendary weapons?
Cosmetics, prestige, and convenience. Legendary weapons are very expensive and time-consuming to craft, and typically have much more grandiose visuals than other skins. Their stats are identical to ascended weapons, but unlike ascended or lesser gear, players may change the attribute bonuses of their legendary weapon at any time while out of combat.

It may have been their intent, but it was never in practice.

You misunderstand the answer. It is in practice whether you think it was or not.

No, medals are medals, skins are skins.

Uh, thanks for putting out a tautology but it doesn’t show anything. Look skins are medals. Got it?

Look, if they want to release two version, the raid armor and the not-raid version, and the skins are 100% identical except for a medal pinned on the chest, then I’ll concede the point, that would be fine. But otherwise, no, skins are not medals. Titles can be medals, nametag flair can be medals, there are various things that can be medals, but actual changes to the character model, no, NOT medals.

A false antecedent makes your statement vacuously true but again it doesn’t show anything. Look they never wanted to release two versions. See that? faulty antecedent. The fact of the matter is, they always had wanted to create just one version. So skin are medals. Got it?

It doesn’t REMOTELY prove that. The team you cited were very clearly not middle-ground gamers. Middleground gamers spend hours in the raid and don’t progress, and no matter how well the very top players do, that does not make it any easier for those below them.

Maybe you don’t understand math, but green gears result approximately 65% of damage output compare to ascended gear. Given the decrease in effective health is zero, dps is usually the only indicator in an optimal set up.

But this says that if the average player who has approximately 65% – 70% of the skills of the best player, equipped with ascended gear, should be able to complete the content.

Unless your opinion of the average player is so pathetic that you say an average player is not even matching 65% the skill of the best players (and this group is not even the best). Your opinion of an average gamer is pretty low then. It shows what type of person you are.

Again, you scale it to the level of the rest of the game. If it’s roughly as difficult as the rest of the game, then it’s a “take it or leave it” situation. If you can’t beat that raid then you can’t beat anything else, so what would be the point of playing at all? The problem with the existing raids is that they are tuned so high above the rest of the game, that there are plenty of players who can do anything else in the game easily enough but still find the raid more frustrating than fun.

No, the minimum level of difficulty is zero, maybe only a few people here want to play a game with zero difficulty. Roleplayers and farmers aside, we don’t want a game with zero difficulty.

No it can’t. Different taste/interests.

So, would you argue that hard mode raids are not for all players? That perhaps there are players who would more enjoy a lower challenge version? They should get on that.

Yeah, so you can go do your own tastes and interests. If you don’t want to raid, go do something else. Is that so difficult? Oh wait, there’s something called dungeons and fractals…

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Now I will use yours and Ohoni’s logic, I don’t like Open world PvE/ Map Completion but I want Incinerator because it’s shiny I can’t get it unless I do said contnent, I don’t want to do that content so Anet should make it so I get every single Poi, Vista, Heart, and WP for just entering each zone so I can acquire The pieces for Incinerator. Since it’s too much Work and hassle, and because I really hate Open World PvE to run around these huge maps completing the requirements to get map completion normally.

Wait, wait, I’ll go a little further: I don’t even want to enter each zone to get the poi, vista, heart and wp. Can I just have all of them unlocked the moment I create a character?

Wait, can the game create a character for me too and on top of that throw me all the legendaries the moment I click play. Oh and just drop me like 1 million gold just in case I don’t want to do anything else.

I vaguely remember there’s a game where “player.additem F 1000000” is a thing, yeah let’s do that.

Are your argumentative positions that weak that the best you can do is create strawmen to defeat?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”.

Nope, just a long term goal. Yu can’t get them in day, a week, even a month, but if you really want it, you will eventually get it. Or at least it was like that for the past legendaries.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else

yet, as you noticed, a legendary backpack has two different ways of acquisition. It’s only a skin that is exclusive.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE

Untrue. There was at least a handful of those given out as rewards for sPvP tournaments. Besides, map completion is a really low threshold to pass.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Raid is the first of such gamemodes that is in itself extremely exclusive. That is the problem.

Okay. Who’s saying that there will never be some sort of legendary armor outside of raids? Did anet state it anywhere?

Also, how are raids excluding people? Please tell me because they sure as hell are not.

The "Exclusion"is them not wanting to put the effort in.

Exactly, I expect Anet to consider what their players ask for but I also expect them to disregard anything as self serving and wasteful as what these players are suggesting.

Roll on Wing 3, can’t wait to see them again ^^

It was never in practice because you said so?

No, it was never in practice because it was never in practice. My only role was in pointing that out. They may have at one point intended Legendary weapons to be prestigious, who’s to say, but in actual practice they made them BoE, so plenty of people ended up with them that did nothing of value to earn them, making the prestige value of them zero, just like raids that can be bought.

But medals change the appearance…

Yeah, but to such a minor degree that I’d be willing to live with it. Compromise!

Yeah and they prove you can do it with around 40-45% less damage (32% less stats).

Which apparently is still not enough. Again, the accomplishments of the 0.01% are completely irrelevant to the accomplishments of the 50%. You can point out edge cases all you like, but until you can point out to me that most random pugs of improperly geared players can accomplish each raid boss within at least their first hour, you are NOT presenting a “problem solved” scenario.

So you want to press 1 once and afk the rest of the fight? Yes thats the difficulty of open world pre HoT. Which is most likely what you want.
Sorry that goes against everything ArenaNet wants raids to be. A challenge.

I’m aiming more towards dungeon challenge than open world, but yeah, easier than raids currently are. And I totally get that this is not what ANet was going for with the existing raids, which is why the existing raids do not accomplish this, and a new ALTERNATIVE to those raids is necessary. I’m not saying that they should nerf the existing raids to that standard, the existing raids do a fine job at being what they are. I’m asking for an ALTERNATIVE to that which is different than their original intention for raiding.

People who can do everything easily except raids don’t exist in this game.

Cite.

There are no hard mode raids. And there won’t be hard mode raids if you get your easy mode. It is and will be still normal mode.

You would not say that raids are more challenging than most content in the game?

No people are not happy if you force them into content they don’t like only for rewards.

Agreed, which is why I’m asking for alternatives.

And with that ‘point’ everything from junk to finished legendaries should drop from every open world mob/pvp reward path/wvw loot bag or someone could feel excluded because he thinks it’s to much effort or doesn’t want to do the content. Just adjust the droprates and everything is fine and everyone is happy right?

No, I don’t think so.

You are not forced to do this. Legendary armour is just a skin and it baffles me that there are people that think it’s far greater.

It baffles me that there are people who think that there is such a thing as “just” a skin.

I am mostly against easy mode raid granting legendary, as in the pve-focus players should get only one way to obtain legendary gear, which is the current raids.

If there should only be one way of earning them, then it should not be from an activity that so few players engage in.

So this thread went from wanting easy mode raids to wanting easy mode legendary armour to wanting easy mode HoT legendaries to wanting easy mode back legendaries.

The thread is still about wanting easy mode raids, although since Legendary armor is a part of the current raids, it is also part of the discussion surrounding easy mode raids. The other legendaries came up from people who do not want alternative access to Legendary armor trying to raise strawmen.

Welcome to the era of entitlement where people want to give minimal effort to gain rewards they do not otherwise deserve.

You realize that the same argument applies to raiders though, who not only want to receive legendary armor for playing a game type they claim to enjoy, but also insists that they must have exclusive access to that legendary armor. If that’s not entitlement then nothing is. Nobody is entitled to anything, we all just receive what ANet chooses to hand out, and if they change their minds about what they choose to hand out, then that’s fine too.

Again saying raid clear sales exploits players yet you don’t claim the same about people that Sell Legendaries on the TP?

I do.

If you are against them you have to include everything in every game mode with minimal effort. Everything is exclusive to a certain extend unless you get it everywhere for free.
If you are pro exclusive rewards, you have to accept that there will be rewards that you may not get.

I’m clearly against. That doesn’t mean that everything should be “easy,” you still have to work for things, but there should always be variety in how you work for them. There should always be short but steep paths to the goal, for those that have very high capabilities; medium but difficult paths, for those that have decent capabilities but can’t keep up to that first group; and very long but very shallow paths too, for those that just can’t take either of the other two.

Everyone should have to work to accomplish the goal, and those who can work the hardest should see their rewards much sooner than anyone else, but nobody should be excluded completely just because they cannot keep up with the very best. A woman recently finished the Boston Marathon with only one leg. It took her ten hours, about eight hours after the winner crossed the finish line, but she did it. If they were taking your advice, they would have closed the whole thing down after about three hours, and everyone else still running the race should have had to go home because they couldn’t keep up with those at the front.

Whats wrong with seeing someone in the world and knowing “Oh they like PvP, look at their backpack.” or “Oh they like fractals and SAB, look at their weapons.”

Because it’s inaccurate. I have Glorious armor on several of my characters, and will have the Ascension on some of them come the fall, and yet I absolutely hate PvP. The look of armor or weapons have absolutely nothing to do with which activities you enjoy. If players want some way to distinguish favorite activities, then that should come from something else, like Titles, or nametag flair.

Right now, players with league status have those little gem icons next to their name, and players with World Completion have the little star. It might be nice if they made this an optional thing, where you could earn multiple nametag flairs through various accomplishments, and choose to display whichever one is most meaningful to you.

they also give people motivation to try a variety of content – if everythig in game could be gained from [insert something mindless and easy] you’d find it the focus of most people’s play time (which isn’t good for a game which wants to support multiple communities like GW2).

Again, motivation to TRY multiple content is great, but once a player has decided that certain content is not for them, the game should also RESPECT that choice and allow them to leave without dangling a lost reward over their head.

Making an easier raid that will allow people to ignore mechanics and giving the same rewards means that it requires minimal effort,

. . .

Anyone that can save up the money to buy raids clears can clear the raids and get the Legendary armor themselves they just choose to pay and take the shortcut to getting it done,

I think this sums the raider side up quite nicely. “I don’t care if people coast their way to legendary, so long as I get my cut when they do.”

With your own argument I can say Legendary weapons are unobtainable because I don’t want to do map completion. Doesn’t matter that I can buy it on the TP because that’s exploiting my unwillingness to do map completion.

If map completion were remotely as challenging as the current raids then you would have something of a point.

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

Exactly. Stat-swapping armor, without rune swapping, allows you to change builds like 80% of the way. This is perfectly fine for casual players, allowing them to dabble with different builds, like changing from power to condi, or DPS to tanky if they like. Hardcore players are all about the meta though, being able to become 80% of a certain meta is pointless to them, that remaining 20% is crucial, so if they’re going to swap from Power to Condi, they would require the runes to swap as well. Therefore, stat-swapping armor is much more useful to casuals than to hardcore players.

Now I will use yours and Ohoni’s logic, I don’t like Open world PvE/ Map Completion but I want Incinerator because it’s shiny I can’t get it unless I do said contnent, I don’t want to do that content so Anet should make it so I get every single Poi, Vista, Heart, and WP for just entering each zone so I can acquire The pieces for Incinerator. Since it’s too much Work and hassle, and because I really hate Open World PvE to run around these huge maps completing the requirements to get map completion normally.

Again, when they make a raid that is no harder to accomplish than World Completion, then you will have a point with this, but not a moment before.

Okay. Who’s saying that there will never be some sort of legendary armor outside of raids? Did anet state it anywhere?

And if and when that happens, the discussion will change. But we aren’t there yet.

Uh, thanks for putting out a tautology but it doesn’t show anything. Look skins are medals. Got it?

Nope, skins are skins. Medals are medals.

But this says that if the average player who has approximately 65% – 70% of the skills of the best player, equipped with ascended gear, should be able to complete the content.

And yet, the average player cannot complete the content, so your example is irrelevant.

Unless your opinion of the average player is so pathetic that you say an average player is not even matching 65% the skill of the best players (and this group is not even the best). Your opinion of an average gamer is pretty low then. It shows what type of person you are.

It’s not my opinion of them, it’s the facts on the ground. If you were right then casual pugs would be beating the raid bosses within a couple hours on the first try. They are not, so you must be wrong.

No, the minimum level of difficulty is zero, maybe only a few people here want to play a game with zero difficulty. Roleplayers and farmers aside, we don’t want a game with zero difficulty.

Yes, which is why nobody is asking for that.

Are your argumentative positions that weak that the best you can do is create strawmen to defeat?

Based on the thread so far, pretty much exclusively.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

How is Legendary Armor a casual oriented item? "Casuals"couldnt care less about Meta changes, making stat swapping less beneficial towards them

It’s the opposite – casuals care less about finetuning the runes to their build, and so they can make greater use of stat swapping than hardcores.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

, the cost of Legendaries is a roadblock for most “casuals”.

Nope, just a long term goal. Yu can’t get them in day, a week, even a month, but if you really want it, you will eventually get it. Or at least it was like that for the past legendaries.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Pvp and FotM have special Legendary back pieces not obtainable anywhere else

yet, as you noticed, a legendary backpack has two different ways of acquisition. It’s only a skin that is exclusive.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Easy open world PvE has Legendary Weapons which aren’t obtainable if you don’t do open world PvE

Untrue. There was at least a handful of those given out as rewards for sPvP tournaments. Besides, map completion is a really low threshold to pass.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Raids will have Legendary Armor not obtainable anywhere else. From the very beginning of the game There has been items exclusive to specific game modes.

Raid is the first of such gamemodes that is in itself extremely exclusive. That is the problem.

Legendary Weapons are Exclusively blocked behind Open world PvE, there are no ifs, ands, or buts, about it, you must complete Map completion to acquire them normally otherwise you cannot get it. Now on the issue of the back pieces FoTM and PvP both have gates that most casuals will never get FoTM being an instances PvE content requires you to be able to complete FoTM 100 which has an actual Gear requirement or you will fail, sPvP has an actual time gate and skill requirement or you will never get it.

See every type of content minus WvW has gated Legendaries. open world PvE shouldn’t have access to every single type of legendary just because you want it. The game wants you to experience everything about it to give value/ meaning to what was made so they hate specific rewards to specific content.

This is shown by you must do X to receive Y… Simple concept of you don’t do X you don’t get Y.

Now I will use yours and Ohoni’s logic, I don’t like Open world PvE/ Map Completion but I want Incinerator because it’s shiny I can’t get it unless I do said contnent, I don’t want to do that content so Anet should make it so I get every single Poi, Vista, Heart, and WP for just entering each zone so I can acquire The pieces for Incinerator. Since it’s too much Work and hassle, and because I really hate Open World PvE to run around these huge maps completing the requirements to get map completion normally.

I can understand the argument to keep legendary acquisition difficult, but there is no reason to keep legendary armor stat-swapping gated behind raiding only. Legendary backpacks are not the only ones available from multiple game modes. You can obtain any legendary weapon type even if you don’t do map completion, because you can buy them off the tp. There are 4 legendary weapon skins exclusive in OWPvE, but they are just skins. If I want a staff for stat-swapping and can’t bother to grind OWPvE, I can just buy a Bifrost. Buying raid runs is not the same, because you still need time to find a group to carry you, a hinderance to casuals. In addition, it’s a transaction that is not completely secure, unlike the tp.

I’m not advocating for an easy mode raid to get legendary armor from. Alternate sets should be obtainable in completely different ways. In my opinion, the next set should come from WvW, because that game mode has no legendaries and because the stat swapping seems to be most useful for that mode of play. This is coming from someone who has barely stepped I to WvW.

Astralporing.1957:

Are your argumentative positions that weak that the best you can do is create strawmen to defeat?

I’d still like to know if there is somewhere a post by an anet dev saying that there definitely never will be legendary armor which can be acquired in a different way than raids and why you think raids are excluding by default.

@Ohoni,

The raids can be completed in greens there for it is debatably as easy as Map completion, it can be done with less people than intended….. So they are not difficult, all that is required is to learn mechanics and group with people that learned the mechanics.
And have the patience to complete them. You want to remove all effort from the raids which is where I have the issue just because you want an exclusive shiny, and cite where they say so few people actually Raid, if you don’t have solid numbers when Anet is stating that raids are a success then you are spreading a false assumption to try and push your wants forward.

@Ganathar,

Selling Raids is the same as buying on the TP you find a group yes there is risk but that’s something people have been risking and they can open a ticket if needed, there are lots of Raids for sale in the LFG. And yes alternative methods should be available but not the same exact item, and it shouldn’t be easier than the original method. And I was using Ohoni’s and Astroporling’s argument that paying for a Legendary is Explotation I am fully aware that I can buy a Legendary on the TP but let’s say I want Nevermore ore Chuka and Cumpatawa I have to do OW PvE and map completion which I don’t like doing, therefore it is gated from me.

Ohoni.6057:

Welcome to the era of entitlement where people want to give minimal effort to gain rewards they do not otherwise deserve.

You realize that the same argument applies to raiders though, who not only want to receive legendary armor for playing a game type they claim to enjoy, but also insists that they must have exclusive access to that legendary armor. If that’s not entitlement then nothing is.

Why do you keep perpetuating this lie… No one is entitled to Legendary Armour, everyone had to work through the raid to qualify for it.

You are asking the game to be changed for you, that is entitlement (you literally feel entitled to Legendary Armour regardless of the current requirement).

How can you not see this???

Gaile Gray.6029:

The last several pages of this thread have devolved into walls o’ text with back-and-forth insults. This thread can continue to be interesting and valuable — or at least acceptable -- but that will require everyone to please stay on topic and stop playing Quote Wars™.

Before posting, stop and ask yourself:

• Is it true?
• Is it fair?
• Is it necessary?

Please… post wisely.

I will post wisely and at length, you have been warned

Let’s start with what we know as true then.

We know that as of right now, Raids are the only means to getting Legendary Armor.

We know that given the whole Legendary Weapon ‘suspension’ that the prospect of new Legendary rewards are very likely on the back-burner until future notice in exchange for new content. This is an assumption however…

We know that Forsaken Thicket is by far the hardest PvE content in game or at the very least that is its intended purpose. There are a considerable amount of players having issues downing even Vale Guardian, however there are also a striking amount of players going through with no issue, even so far as to come up with self-imposed challenges or strategies like Full Nomads Tempests VG or no Updraft Gorseval. In fact, very recently a guild group had done Vale Guardian with 3g or under gear!

And we finally know that there are players who like them, players who do not, and players who do not care either way, its content. Absolutely no one but Arenanet can know the numbers, and we as players can be critical of the dev acknowledgements since they have a bias. That’s perfectly fine.

So the next thing that comes after all of this is, is what we have now fair?

This is one of the biggest problems we keep bickering about, we all have a voice in this (and we have spoken quite a bit) but what we have to ask is if we are letting our own bias interfere with our judgment here. Ignore the fact that Legendary Armor is locked behind the hardest PvE content right now, let’s look for other instances of where and why such a decision was made. Does locking Legendary Armor behind difficult content make sense? Has there been other instances of high quality skins being put behind some difficult barrier? Have those same rewards been ‘fair’ and if they were, why were they fair if compared to Legendary Armor in raids?

The main point those who want the same Legendary Armor outside of raids make is that there are other gated rewards such as say Auric Weapons or Leyline armor that do have a fairly decent time-gate, but can be accessible through say SPvP or an alternative method. Alternative means of acquisition means that players aren’t funneled into doing only a single kind of content for the reward they want. That’s a fair point to make.

The counter-point made is that because Legendary Armor is locked behind as of right now, this first raid, in which requires repeat kills and attempts, in exchange for a time-gate (at least once they release the final wing anyways…) there’s a skill gate instead, as if you are skilled enough you can spend only a few hours a week downing all the bosses easily rather than do dozens of hours in Auric Basin farming Slivers (now nerfed…). This too is a fair point, asking for something of a skill-gate rather than a time-gate is completely normal.

What becomes problematic is what both those ‘gates’ mean and how they affect the reward. This is the biggest division we have and the crux of many of the back and forth.

When you put something behind a time-gate, regardless of how well you play you will eventually get the item eventually. When you put something behind a skill-gate, you set a certain threshold you want the player to be at before they can get the reward, and everything else below that is no progress. This is at least, the ideal for both cases. You can expand your arguments from here and state that time-gating rewards is more inclusive for everyone while skill-gating is exclusive. Which motivates players more, etc.

Those for more universal methods for Legendary Armor want more time-gate, those against see a time-gate as invalidating the skill-gate, as in why bother trying harder for something if everyone can get it at some point? The path of least resistance is correct in this regard, if one could earn Ad Infinitum killing Mai Trin 50 a couple times rather than a single Mai Trin 100 (a completely different and harder encounter), even the most hard-core fractal runner would do so, and ignore the final fractal all together. After all, we are all playing a MMO, why bother pushing yourself?

That last line is a main fear for a majority of players who view rewards not just as skins but how they are obtained. It is the reason new Magumma Legendaries could not be sold on the TP compared to the first legendaries, it is also the reason why HoT maps have more containers in them, the players see rewards versus their acquisition and their cost and want their own balance for them. By this progression did we arrive at now Legendary Content locked behind the first ever Raid for GW2. I believe it is fair enough to say that we all have had a contribution towards reaching a point where rewards like Legendaries would be taken from the trading post and pushed into the ends of certain content. If everyone was content with how the game was, rewards-wise, from launch we would have all the new rewards earned just like how we did years ago. It’s changed considerably. So rather than take a standpoint of saying one side is fair versus another, I think it’s more likely to believe that the rewards are fair because of how every single update has pushed Arenanet down this road to this moment.

Finally, is this necessary?

Would it be fair to request a continued change to this? Yes. It’s how we got here, might as well ask for rewards to be more universal or exclusive or whatever. But we reached this point progressing from a system that was ultimately more inclusive for everyone. We literally had feedback stating that it was too easy to get some rewards, and cries for unique incentives for new content were being made. This is why the Shatterer has a new backpiece, why Tequatl has those caches that never drop for me- erm I mean HE HAS NEAT TREASURE. We created a system that has the more common skins being very inclusive to different branches of content have different unique rewards.

And apparently now is the time we have issues. Just with Legendary Armor. Which…if you were to look at other Legendary Equipment, there are ways to make that quality equipment in at least one other branch of the game elsewhere. I think it is very fair and necessary for a kind of Legendary Armor to be obtainable in a content outside of Raids. However just like the differences between Astralaria and Frostfang, or Ad Infinitum and The Ascension, this new Legendary Armor would have to be different than the Envoy coming out in Forsaken Thicket.

That is my stance Gaile, I hope it helps!

I’d still like to know if there is somewhere a post by an anet dev saying that there definitely never will be legendary armor which can be acquired in a different way than raids and why you think raids are excluding by default.

I don’t think there is such a post, but what difference would that make? They could be working on some alternate method right now, but we don’t know about it if they are, and we’re talking from the outside about what they could or should be doing. Right now, the only known method is through the raids. At some future date, there might be other methods. If and when that happens, the conversation will shift to reflect that. Until then, these are the terms of the conversation, what we do know, and what changes, if any, we would like to see from that.

The raids can be completed in greens there for it is debatably as easy as Map completion, it can be done with less people than intended…..

Ridiculous. Any group of ten players that can clear a raid in greens can easily swarm even the most challenging map completion goals. Any team of ten players who can clear a raid in full Ascended could easily complete the most challenging map completion goals. Any player who can pull his own weight in a successful raid run can likely solo his way through every task in map completion. There is absolutely no rational claim that the two are even remotely equivalent in terms of challenge level, and it reduces you to feign otherwise.

Why do you keep perpetuating this lie… No one is entitled to Legendary Armour, everyone had to work through the raid to qualify for it.

Exactly, nobody is entitled to Legendary Armor, including raiders. ANet currently see fit to offer the armor only to raiders, in future they could change that. All I’m asking is that they do.

You are asking the game to be changed for you, that is entitlement (you literally feel entitled to Legendary Armour regardless of the current requirement).

And you are asking that the game not be changed because the existing system benefits you, which is also entitlement. Defending the status quo is still taking a position. The only neutral position is neutrality, to say “whatever happens, I’m fine with that.” So long as you care one way or the other, you’re no less active than people on the other side of it.

The path of least resistance is correct in this regard, if one could earn Ad Infinitum killing Mai Trin 50 a couple times rather than a single Mai Trin 100 (a completely different and harder encounter), even the most hard-core fractal runner would do so, and ignore the final fractal all together. After all, we are all playing a MMO, why bother pushing yourself?

And yet, as you noted various groups are doing all sorts of ridiculous runs at the existing raids, strange gearing and group comps. There is no extra reward whatsoever for these hurdles, and yet people who genuinely want challenge set them up anyway. People who claim to enjoy challenge and yet will take the path of least resistance if offers are hypocrites at best, worst if they try to use their preferences to justify withholding things from others.

So rather than take a standpoint of saying one side is fair versus another, I think it’s more likely to believe that the rewards are fair because of how every single update has pushed Arenanet down this road to this moment.

I don’t believe that we can fairly blame recent actions on the player’s reception of previous actions. ANet frequently makes moves that come out of left field and are extremely poorly received by the players, such as the Trait overhauls, the initial plan for Elite specs, the initial map meta design for the HoT maps, etc. Anet gonna do what ANet gonna do, don’t blame the players for that.

And sure, there were always fringe elements pushing for “more challenge,” or “more difficult to ear legendaries,” but these people never actually mattered, no matter how loud they may have been. There would be no justification for ANet to actually listen to them.

Ohoni.6057:

Why do you keep perpetuating this lie… No one is entitled to Legendary Armour, everyone had to work through the raid to qualify for it.

Exactly, nobody is entitled to Legendary Armor, including raiders. ANet currently see fit to offer the armor only to raiders, in future they could change that. All I’m asking is that they do.

Oh for goodness sake, I am not entitled to Legendary Armour but I have done the work for it…

Wing 3 could be impossible for me to complete for example and I would still want Legendary Armour require Wing 3 because I am not entitled to it…

Everyone who has done the raid are not “entitled” as we had to complete the raid to achieve access to the Armour, you cannot think in such a back to front way…

I can’t but think you must be insincere to keep pushing this nonsense, “entitled” means inherently deserving – raiders work for their rewards (maybe you could try the same).

Stop talking nonsense..

Oh for goodness sake, I am not entitled to Legendary Armour but I have done the work for it…

Well, if you did the things currently listed, then you are currently entitled to it, true enough. But if they change the requirements to something else, then people that complete those requirements are no less entitled to the reward. Nobody is automatically entitled to the reward. There are just a lot of raiders acting like “Of course raiders deserve Legendary armor, and of course nobody else does." That’s entitlement.

I can’t but think you must be insincere to keep pushing this nonsense, “entitled” means inherently deserving – raiders work for their rewards (maybe you could try the same).

But people use the term to describe non-raiders as well, to say that people who don’t want to raid are “entitled” to ask for alternate methods. If it is “entitled” to ask for alternate methods then why would it not be entitled for those who enjoy the current methods?

There are just a lot of raiders acting like “Of course raiders deserve Legendary armor, and of course nobody else does."

OK let me help you by beeing more accurate
“of course raiders deserve the legendary armor Anet chose to put as a reward behind raid, since they put the necessary amont of work / effort to beat raids, and of course people not wanting to put same amont of effort and not wanting to raid don’t deserve the raid rewards.”