OK let me help you by beeing more accurate
“of course raiders deserve the legendary armor Anet chose to put as a reward behind raid, since they put the necessary amont of work / effort to beat raids, and of course people not wanting to put same amont of effort and not wanting to raid don’t deserve the raid rewards.”
Right, that’s what I said. Entitlement.
OK let me help you by beeing more accurate
“of course raiders deserve the legendary armor Anet chose to put as a reward behind raid, since they put the necessary amont of work / effort to beat raids, and of course people not wanting to put same amont of effort and not wanting to raid don’t deserve the raid rewards.”Right, that’s what I said. Entitlement.
Not really it’s more like à logical thing. Raiders are doing raids, so they deserve raid rewards. People that don’t want to do raids don’t deserve the raid rewards. It’s so logical and normal…
Like all other things in gw2…
I can’t but think you must be insincere to keep pushing this nonsense, “entitled” means inherently deserving – raiders work for their rewards (maybe you could try the same).
But people use the term to describe non-raiders as well, to say that people who don’t want to raid are “entitled” to ask for alternate methods. If it is “entitled” to ask for alternate methods then why would it not be entitled for those who enjoy the current methods?
“I am entitled to Legendary Armour, so I must get it, if I cannot get it now then they must introduce a method for me to achieve it.”
This is what you have been arguing this whole time.
“I am not entitled to Legendary Armour, if I want it I will complete the content required to achieve it.”
This is what I am doing with respect to Legendary Armour.
See how I am not entitled but you are? Do we really need to keep going through this line by line?
Just give me a thumbs up that you understand.
I can’t but think you must be insincere to keep pushing this nonsense, “entitled” means inherently deserving – raiders work for their rewards (maybe you could try the same).
But people use the term to describe non-raiders as well, to say that people who don’t want to raid are “entitled” to ask for alternate methods. If it is “entitled” to ask for alternate methods then why would it not be entitled for those who enjoy the current methods?
“I am entitled to Legendary Armour, so I must get it, if I cannot get it now then they must introduce a method for me to achieve it.”
This is what you have been arguing this whole time.“I am not entitled to Legendary Armour, if I want it I will complete the content required to achieve it.”
This is what I am doing with respect to Legendary Armour.See how I am not entitled but you are? Do we really need to keep going through this line by line?
Just give me a thumbs up that you understand.
He’s never going to give you a thumbs up. It’s really not worth your time in the slightest…
OK let me help you by beeing more accurate
“of course raiders deserve the legendary armor Anet chose to put as a reward behind raid, since they put the necessary amont of work / effort to beat raids, and of course people not wanting to put same amont of effort and not wanting to raid don’t deserve the raid rewards.”Right, that’s what I said. Entitlement.
You are the one with entitlement. Raiders never said to ArenaNet that legendary armor should put behind the raid to exclude other people. It was a decision from ArenaNet alone.
And you are the one demanding rewards from game modes you are not willing or able to complete.
Think your thought to the end, that exclusive rewards are bad given the fact that effort is a form of exclusive gating and raiding is a form of effort (an argument which noone was responded to, neither you or Astralporing.) and post your results.
You only care about areas where you can’t succeed. You don’t care about other people who aren’t willing to spend the effort you would need after the easy mode but still want the armor. So you are also excluding people, what makes you even worse than raider. Raider don’t want to destroy or devalue other game modes.
And yes raids are by far the hardest PvE content tody because they are intended to be the hardest PvE content.
(edited by Miellyn.6847)
Not really it’s more like à logical thing. Raiders are doing raids, so they deserve raid rewards. People that don’t want to do raids don’t deserve the raid rewards. It’s so logical and normal…
But “raid rewards” Isn’t a thing. “Raid rewards” could be legendary armor, it could also be 50s and a bus pass. The problem isn’t that raiders are expecting to get the rewards ANet said they would, that much is fine, the problem is that they feel 100% comfortable with having legendary armor be exclusive to the content they enjoy, and many of them seem outright hostile to the idea of other players also having access to it through other means.
Nobody here is trying to take away anything that raids currently offer. The entire discussion is around the idea of other players also having access to those rewards through other activities, and yet some of the raiders are throwing an absolute fit over the idea. Random nearly had a nervous breakdown. The “entitlement” is not that raiders feel entitled to the rewards they were promised, that’s fair, the entitlement is that they feel they have some sort of exclusive right to those rewards.
“I am entitled to Legendary Armour, so I must get it, if I cannot get it now then they must introduce a method for me to achieve it.”
This is what you have been arguing this whole time.
Ehhhh, you sort of put some stresses on that concept that are not part of my position. I mean, it’s generally got the right idea, but a bit more extreme than where I’m at? I don’t think that I’m entitled to Legendary armor, just that I’m no less inherently entitled to the armor than someone who raids. Raiders only receive the armor because ANet said they could, and if ANet says I can too, then I can too. I don’t think that they must do this, but I think it would make more people happy than it would upset, so I think they should do it.
“I am not entitled to Legendary Armour, if I want it I will complete the content required to achieve it.”
This is what I am doing with respect to Legendary Armour.
This is nice, but rather. . . convenient when the thing that you must do turns out to be something you enjoy doing and are well prepared to do. That must be so hard on you, bearing that incredible burden.
But again, not a problem that you feel entitled to your reward. The problem, is that you also seem entitled to blocking me from mine. You just seem ungrateful for the gift you’ve been given, that the tasks needed to earn the reward happen to be tasks that you’re willing and able to pursue.
You are the one with entitlement. Raiders never said to ArenaNet that legendary armor should put behind the raid to exclude other people.
You should read back through this thread, you may be unaware, but it is FULL of people crying bloody murder over the idea that anything less than the current difficulty raids should offer “their” legendary armor.
Think your thought to the end, that exclusive rewards are bad given the fact that effort is a form of exclusive gating and raiding is a form of effort (an argument which noone was responded to, neither you or Astralporing.) and post your results.
I have no idea what you’re asking here.
You only care about areas where you can’t succeed. You don’t care about other people who aren’t willing to spend the effort you would need after the easy mode but still want the armor. So you are also excluding people, what makes you even worse than raider. Raider don’t want to destroy or devalue other game modes.
Well, I think I’m making a reasonable target here. My goal is to make it achievable to the overwhelming majority of the game’s population. It would be something that probably 60%+ of the game’s population could achieve entirely through their own merits, and that groups of 7-8 even fairly middling players could carry the other 2-3 through without much issue to make sure their friends and guildmates can make it. I don’t think anyone who actually tries the content would feel left out of it, and despite numerous protestations to the contrary, the existing raids do not meet that standard.
Obviously it wouldn’t allow 100% of the game’s population to clear the content on their own merit, but players that can do most of the content in the game would be able to do easy mode raids too, and I think that’s a very reasonable target. It’s not about absolutely including everybody, it’s about including most players.
And yes raids are by far the hardest PvE content tody because they are intended to be the hardest PvE content.
And that’s fine, and the hard mode version can continue to be just that. Again, nobody is trying to diminish that in any way. But this would be a second mode, an optional mode, for people that don’t want to play the “hardest PvE content,” but that want the other aspects currently connected to the raids.
Not really it’s more like à logical thing. Raiders are doing raids, so they deserve raid rewards. People that don’t want to do raids don’t deserve the raid rewards. It’s so logical and normal…
But “raid rewards” Isn’t a thing. “Raid rewards” could be legendary armor, it could also be 50s and a bus pass. The problem isn’t that raiders are expecting to get the rewards ANet said they would, that much is fine, the problem is that they feel 100% comfortable with having legendary armor be exclusive to the content they enjoy, and many of them seem outright hostile to the idea of other players also having access to it through other means.
Raid rewards are a thing. They exist, you just don’t like the fact that they exist and you want them.
Nobody here is trying to take away anything that raids currently offer. The entire discussion is around the idea of other players also having access to those rewards through other activities, and yet some of the raiders are throwing an absolute fit over the idea. Random nearly had a nervous breakdown. The “entitlement” is not that raiders feel entitled to the rewards they were promised, that’s fair, the entitlement is that they feel they have some sort of exclusive right to those rewards.
How do I obtain a legendary backpiece, if I don’t like fractals or sPvP?
“I am entitled to Legendary Armour, so I must get it, if I cannot get it now then they must introduce a method for me to achieve it.”
This is what you have been arguing this whole time.Ehhhh, you sort of put some stresses on that concept that are not part of my position. I mean, it’s generally got the right idea, but a bit more extreme than where I’m at? I don’t think that I’m entitled to Legendary armor, just that I’m no less inherently entitled to the armor than someone who raids. Raiders only receive the armor because ANet said they could, and if ANet says I can too, then I can too. I don’t think that they must do this, but I think it would make more people happy than it would upset, so I think they should do it.
ArenaNet never said you can’t obtain the current legendary armor. Or does your account have a flag that prevents you from progressing the armor collection? Everything is exclusive to an extend. Effort is a form of exclusive gating.
“I am not entitled to Legendary Armour, if I want it I will complete the content required to achieve it.”
This is what I am doing with respect to Legendary Armour.This is nice, but rather. . . convenient when the thing that you must do turns out to be something you enjoy doing and are well prepared to do. That must be so hard on you, bearing that incredible burden.
But again, not a problem that you feel entitled to your reward. The problem, is that you also seem entitled to blocking me from mine. You just seem ungrateful for the gift you’ve been given, that the tasks needed to earn the reward happen to be tasks that you’re willing and able to pursue.
What about people how aren’t willing to do the new tasks if we get an alternate way to obtain legendary armor and still want it?
You are the one with entitlement. Raiders never said to ArenaNet that legendary armor should put behind the raid to exclude other people.
You should read back through this thread, you may be unaware, but it is FULL of people crying bloody murder over the idea that anything less than the current difficulty raids should offer “their” legendary armor.
Post me a quote before HoT that said that ArenaNet has to put legendary armor behind raids. It doesn’t exist. It was the decision from ArenaNet.
And of course people are against your form of an easy mode. It doesn’t require anything more than to show up with a weapon so you can deal a bit of damage. That equals zero effort.
Think your thought to the end, that exclusive rewards are bad given the fact that effort is a form of exclusive gating and raiding is a form of effort (an argument which noone was responded to, neither you or Astralporing.) and post your results.
I have no idea what you’re asking here.
You know exactly what I’m saying here. You are against exclusive rewards. Effort is a form of exclusive gating. So there are still people excluded even after a different way to obtain the rewards.
If you are fine with that, you also have to accept that there will be rewards excluding you. Otherwise see entitlement.
You only care about areas where you can’t succeed. You don’t care about other people who aren’t willing to spend the effort you would need after the easy mode but still want the armor. So you are also excluding people, what makes you even worse than raider. Raider don’t want to destroy or devalue other game modes.
Well, I think I’m making a reasonable target here. My goal is to make it achievable to the overwhelming majority of the game’s population. It would be something that probably 60%+ of the game’s population could achieve entirely through their own merits, and that groups of 7-8 even fairly middling players could carry the other 2-3 through without much issue to make sure their friends and guildmates can make it. I don’t think anyone who actually tries the content would feel left out of it, and despite numerous protestations to the contrary, the existing raids do not meet that standard.
Obviously it wouldn’t allow 100% of the game’s population to clear the content on their own merit, but players that can do most of the content in the game would be able to do easy mode raids too, and I think that’s a very reasonable target. It’s not about absolutely including everybody, it’s about including most players.
Including most players still excludes some. You are against exclusive rewards.
Or you could redefine your whole argument, that you are against rewards that excludes you. Which is again entitlement.
Legendary items are the definition of excluding content in this game and they were designed to be that.
And yes raids are by far the hardest PvE content tody because they are intended to be the hardest PvE content.
And that’s fine, and the hard mode version can continue to be just that. Again, nobody is trying to diminish that in any way. But this would be a second mode, an optional mode, for people that don’t want to play the “hardest PvE content,” but that want the other aspects currently connected to the raids.
It will continue to be normal mode. It has been proven that most people who are interested in that kind of content can clear it. A hard mode would exclude many of those people. And your easy mode from last page, with a difficulty level ‘near the rest of the game’ is just a joke.
(edited by Miellyn.6847)
But “raid rewards” Isn’t a thing. “Raid rewards” could be legendary armor, it could also be 50s and a bus pass. The problem isn’t that raiders are expecting to get the rewards ANet said they would, that much is fine, the problem is that they feel 100% comfortable with having legendary armor be exclusive to the content they enjoy, and many of them seem outright hostile to the idea of other players also having access to it through other means.
hmm, of course raid reward is a thing. you beat it, you have rewards. and part of the reward is working toward the precursor of a legendary armor. and i think most raiders are perfectly fine with having legendary armor in other part of the game, such at pvp or wvw. Personnaly, i’m against your idea because you just want to bypass a skill gate by a time gate, which will totally devalue the skill gate. Moreover, you’re not willing to put the same effort as i put in learning raid. And no, time is not the same as skill.
Nobody here is trying to take away anything that raids currently offer. The entire discussion is around the idea of other players also having access to those rewards through other activities, and yet some of the raiders are throwing an absolute fit over the idea. Random nearly had a nervous breakdown. The “entitlement” is not that raiders feel entitled to the rewards they were promised, that’s fair, the entitlement is that they feel they have some sort of exclusive right to those rewards.
wrong. on the contrary, many raiders welcome all the people that want to learn / put some effort. Have you seen all the guides, the videos, etc, made by some raiders?
and again, we are not against having legendary armor in other part of the game (pvp, wvw). that’s just fair. It’s you, wanting your easy mode just tunned fine for you, who seem pretty selfish.
This is nice, but rather. . . convenient when the thing that you must do turns out to be something you enjoy doing and are well prepared to do. That must be so hard on you, bearing that incredible burden.
But again, not a problem that you feel entitled to your reward. The problem, is that you also seem entitled to blocking me from mine. You just seem ungrateful for the gift you’ve been given, that the tasks needed to earn the reward happen to be tasks that you’re willing and able to pursue.
no, the problem is you beeing selfish and unwilling to work for something. So you prefer the content to be tunned for you instead of tunning you for the content. By doing that, you will arm some other people (a lot i think) but you don’t care as long as you have your shinny.
How do I obtain a legendary backpiece, if I don’t like fractals or sPvP?
Currently? You can’t. In the future? Who knows. Propose a method to ANet that you believe is fair, I’ll probably support you so long as you take it seriously. Just so that we can curtail some of the future inevitable strawmen, I will back ANY attempt to make currently “exclusive” rewards also be available through alternate means, so long as the specifics involved are balanced.
What about people how aren’t willing to do the new tasks if we get an alternate way to obtain legendary armor and still want it?
They don’t get it then, but the goal is to provide an alternative task that is within the capabilities and interests of the majority of players, rather than locking it behind an event that is only within the capabilities and interests of a small minority of the players.
Post me a quote before HoT that said that ArenaNet has to put legendary armor behind raids. It doesn’t exist. It was the decision from ArenaNet.
I kind of wish the forums were easier to search, because plenty of people were asking ANet for raids, AND asking for either Legendary armor or something of equivalent exclusivity.
Effort is a form of exclusive gating. So there are still people excluded even after a different way to obtain the rewards.
So you’re saying “if we relax the restrictions at all, then we have to basically just give out everything as log-in rewards?” I don’t think that’s true. All things in moderation, I think that there’s a reasonable middle-ground between the current difficulty of raids and “no effort at all.” The goal is to make them available to most players, which is something the existing raids fail to do.
Including most players still excludes some. You are against exclusive rewards.
I’m against content being exclusive to one specific type of content, like ONLY PvP or ONLY one type of raid. I am against content being exclusive to only a very small minority of players. In that sense, I am broadly against exclusivity, but I do not take it to the extremes that you suggest, I do not believe that every reward should be example to every player, regardless of the effort they want to put in, I do think that time and effort need to be a part of the process, just that the requirements should be balanced around what the average player is willing and able to put in, not around what the extreme fringe of the playerbase is willing and able to put in.
I take responsibility for the positions I take, but not for the positions you want to apply to me.
hmm, of course raid reward is a thing. you beat it, you have rewards.
I have to assume that your misunderstanding is deliberate, not accidental. You’re better than that. You can be better than that. My point was that the things the raid currently rewards are not what a raid has to reward, and do not belong exclusively to raids in any inalienable manner. They are not inherently raid rewards. The raid currently rewards them, nothing else currently does, but the next patch could come out an the raid could reward different stuff, and the stuff currently being rewarded by raids could be rewarded elsewhere. The raid and raiders do not in perpetuity “own” the rewards currently being offered.
and i think most raiders are perfectly fine with having legendary armor in other part of the game, such at pvp or wvw.
Or easy mode raids, for players who do not enjoy PvP, or WvW, or the current hard mode raids. There si no reason to exclude these players from having alternatives.
Personnaly, i’m against your idea because you just want to bypass a skill gate by a time gate, which will totally devalue the skill gate.
Because the skill gate should have no value. I mean, if you like skill, that’s great, go for it, and maybe earn the rewards faster that way, but it shouldn’t entitle you to exclusive access to the rewards.
Moreover, you’re not willing to put the same effort as i put in learning raid. And no, time is not the same as skill.
But I am willing to put in that much, or more effort into doing the easy mode raid. Stop trying to act like me “mastering the raid” would be equivalent to you doing so. Clearly you obtain at least some enjoyment from the raiding process, it is at least somewhat fun for you, or at the very least not so unpleasant that the eventual reward is not invalidated by the struggle. That is not true for everyone.
Let me give you an example of what I mean. Did your mom ever tell you to eat your vegetables? Maybe you didn’t want to? I can’t really assume, because everyone is different. Here is an article on the subject: http://io9.gizmodo.com/are-there-some-vegetables-you-cant-stand-it-may-be-gen-1532668567
Different people literally taste foods differently, so while to some people, a certain food might merely be slightly unpleasant, and they can stuff it down, or some people actually enjoy it, to others it is truly nasty. Telling such a person “I ate my vegetables, so if you want your desert you should too,” is not you asking for them to experience the same thing you experienced for the same reward, it is you asking them to experience something far worse than you did for the same reward. I know myself, I know how I experience content like this, and I know that I will never enjoy it at any level, so me experiencing the exact same experiences you do will feel worse for me than it will for you, it is not “equivalent.”
If you did experience raiding the same way I do, there is no way you would consider it a reasonable activity for people to play. I accept that people react to experiences differently, so I’m fine with experiences I do not like being in the game, so long as I’m not expected to participate in them to get the things I want, I just wish you had the empathy to do the same.
By doing that, you will arm some other people (a lot i think) but you don’t care as long as you have your shinny.
I’ve already said, they could hand me a full set of Legendary armor tomorrow, and I would still be pushing for this. I do believe in the principle behind it, however much you want to push it to just being about me.
So you’re saying “if we relax the restrictions at all, then we have to basically just give out everything as log-in rewards?” I don’t think that’s true. All things in moderation, I think that there’s a reasonable middle-ground between the current difficulty of raids and “no effort at all.” The goal is to make them available to most players, which is something the existing raids fail to do.
if we relax the effort, it’s perfectly normal to relax the rewards. Again, think about story dungeon and explorable dungeon. The first one is basically easy mode, with no reward except some money. Easy mode raid could be like that, i will be perfectly fine with that.
I have to assume that your misunderstanding is deliberate, not accidental. You’re better than that. You can be better than that. My point was that the things the raid currently rewards are not what a raid has to reward, and do not belong exclusively to raids in any inalienable manner. They are not inherently raid rewards. The raid currently rewards them, nothing else currently does, but the next patch could come out an the raid could reward different stuff, and the stuff currently being rewarded by raids could be rewarded elsewhere. The raid and raiders do not in perpetuity “own” the rewards currently being offered.
and who are you to decide what a raid can or cannot reward? you’re talking like you’re the only one with the TRUTH. It’s Anet decision, respect it at last ^^
they choose the rewards, and they choose to make it rather exclusive. And it’s your choice not wanting to run the exclusive content in order to have exclusive reward.
Or easy mode raids, for players who do not enjoy PvP, or WvW, or the current hard mode raids. There si no reason to exclude these players from having alternatives.
Just Anet choice, that’s all. Again, no one is excluded. You feel excluded, which is not the same at all.
Because the skill gate should have no value. I mean, if you like skill, that’s great, go for it, and maybe earn the rewards faster that way, but it shouldn’t entitle you to exclusive access to the rewards.
for you, maybe. but again for you, skill is not important. And, btw, we’re not entitle to exclusive reward, we just have raid rewards because we’re doing raid, that’s all. It’s the same as you not having raid rewards because you don’t want to raid.
But I am willing to put in that much, or more effort into doing the easy mode raid. Stop trying to act like me “mastering the raid” would be equivalent to you doing so. Clearly you obtain at least some enjoyment from the raiding process, it is at least somewhat fun for you, or at the very least not so unpleasant that the eventual reward is not invalidated by the struggle. That is not true for everyone.
More effort? how? it’s easy raid, you want it tunned so that almost everyone can beat it. there is no effort in that for many of us. And you talk about more time, but again, for me more time would mean 10 times as us, or more. if you can provide me with a right equation in order to transform skill effort into time effort, which is totally fair for everyone, i will listen to you.
if we relax the effort, it’s perfectly normal to relax the rewards.
And we are. You would get less for easy mode than for hard, requiring you to do easy mode several times to make the equivalent of hard. That is fair. What would not be fair is to say “if you do easy mode, even for months or years, you will NEVER get this reward. You can ONLY get it through hard mode.”
Again, think about story dungeon and explorable dungeon. The first one is basically easy mode, with no reward except some money. Easy mode raid could be like that, i will be perfectly fine with that.
That’s nice that you would be perfectly fine with that, it’s very magnanimous of you to give up nothing at all in order to make so few players happy, but that’s not what I’d want, and not what would benefit the game. Almost nobody runs Story mode more than once, I know some do, but probably less than currently run raids. We need something that people will want to repeat, at the very least it would need rewards equivalent to the time and effort it would take to complete, which would be equivalent to an exploration-path dungeon.
Again, I’m not entirely opposed to the easy mode raids offering no path to Legendary, so long as there is some other PvE path of equivalent difficulty, I just see easy mode as being the simplest option to implement.
and who are you to decide what a raid can or cannot reward? you’re talking like you’re the only one with the TRUTH. It’s Anet decision, respect it at last ^^
That’s what I just said to you.
And, btw, we’re not entitle to exclusive reward, we just have raid rewards because we’re doing raid, that’s all. It’s the same as you not having raid rewards because you don’t want to raid.
Right, so if they make it so that those rewards can be earned through other means, then both of us would be happy.
More effort? how? it’s easy raid, you want it tunned so that almost everyone can beat it. there is no effort in that for many of us. And you talk about more time, but again, for me more time would mean 10 times as us, or more.
I’ve discussed this up thread, but I would even be ok with ten times as much, although in that case they’d have to change things up a bit, because if it took say three months realtime to earn the rewards in hard mode, taking 2.5 years to earn it via easy mode is a bit preposterous, but they could make it so that it would take ten times as many runs, but on daily lockout rather than weekly, so that instead of taking 12 runs over 12 weeks to get it in hard mode, it would take 120 runs over 17 weeks on easy mode, or perhaps even a bit more than that (and of course would start months after hard mode, so hard mode people who started when the raid opened would have exclusive access for months before even the most dedicated easy mode people).
I’m just really tired of this “it’s sooooooooo easy, I can sleepwalk through it” whinging nonsense. That may be true for you, fine. No one cares. It’s not true for most of the people playing this game, and it’s more important that they are happy than that you are happy, because they outnumber you. Playing through a dungeon-level difficulty content IS an effort for most players, and that’s what content should be balanced around, not around what the 1% can pull off.
If people want to play hard content like that, then that’s fine, it should be around for them, but they should be playing it because they want the challenge, and their reward is that challenge, not because they want better loot than everyone else gets. If ANet offers you better loot for playing how you enjoy, then you accept it with gratitude and humility, and you don’t throw a fit if they decide to also offer those rewards to your “lessers.” You are not owed that better loot, ANet has gifted it to you. Be grateful, not greedy.
And we are. You would get less for easy mode than for hard, requiring you to do easy mode several times to make the equivalent of hard. That is fair. What would not be fair is to say “if you do easy mode, even for months or years, you will NEVER get this reward. You can ONLY get it through hard mode.”
Why is it fair ? If you want it to be fair, you have to provide me the proof that the amount of effort is the same. So far, you fail to do it… Harder work means better rewards, it’s normal.
That’s nice that you would be perfectly fine with that, it’s very magnanimous of you to give up nothing at all in order to make so few players happy, but that’s not what I’d want, and not what would benefit the game. Almost nobody runs Story mode more than once, I know some do, but probably less than currently run raids. We need something that people will want to repeat, at the very least it would need rewards equivalent to the time and effort it would take to complete, which would be equivalent to an exploration-path dungeon.
So, you know what can benefit the game? Whoo, first news…i guess you have proof to back up your claims, with numbers and facts, etc.
Again, I’m not entirely opposed to the easy mode raids offering no path to Legendary, so long as there is some other PvE path of equivalent difficulty, I just see easy mode as being the simplest option to implement.
Equivalent difficulty to hard mode raid, yes.
I’ve discussed this up thread, but I would even be ok with ten times as much, although in that case they’d have to change things up a bit, because if it took say three months realtime to earn the rewards in hard mode, taking 2.5 years to earn it via easy mode is a bit preposterous, but they could make it so that it would take ten times as many runs, but on daily lockout rather than weekly, so that instead of taking 12 runs over 12 weeks to get it in hard mode, it would take 120 runs over 17 weeks on easy mode, or perhaps even a bit more than that (and of course would start months after hard mode, so hard mode people who started when the raid opened would have exclusive access for months before even the most dedicated easy mode people).
Daily easy mode raid is not the equivalent of weekly normal raid. Try again. Your solution is just a little daily grind, another one…
I’m just really tired of this “it’s sooooooooo easy, I can sleepwalk through it” whinging nonsense. That may be true for you, fine. No one cares. It’s not true for most of the people playing this game, and it’s more important that they are happy than that you are happy, because they outnumber you. Playing through a dungeon-level difficulty content IS an effort for most players, and that’s what content should be balanced around, not around what the 1% can pull off.
Irrelevant. Anet chose to put some reward behind à content balanced around some players, yes. And what’s wrong with that ? All other part of the game is balanced for all the other people. So maybe you should stop beeing greedy and selfish and let us enjoy this hard content. I don’t care if you’re not happy either. It’s your choice to restrain yourself.
And btw, without number to back up your claim, I still believe, based on this topic, that you are among the minority.
Many players not doing raids don’t care about legendary armor and don’t feel entitled to have it like you are.
If people want to play hard content like that, then that’s fine, it should be around for them, but they should be playing it because they want the challenge, and their reward is that challenge, not because they want better loot than everyone else gets. If ANet offers you better loot for playing how you enjoy, then you accept it with gratitude and humility, and you don’t throw a fit if they decide to also offer those rewards to your “lessers.” You are not owed that better loot, ANet has gifted it to you. Be grateful, not greedy.
Offer? Gift ? Since we have to put some work and effort, it’s not a gift. We are not owed better loot, we are owned raid loot. You are not owned raid loot because you don’t raid. And you’re just greedy wanting raid loot without wanting to raid.
How do I obtain a legendary backpiece, if I don’t like fractals or sPvP?
Currently? You can’t. In the future? Who knows. Propose a method to ANet that you believe is fair, I’ll probably support you so long as you take it seriously. Just so that we can curtail some of the future inevitable strawmen, I will back ANY attempt to make currently “exclusive” rewards also be available through alternate means, so long as the specifics involved are balanced.
What about people how aren’t willing to do the new tasks if we get an alternate way to obtain legendary armor and still want it?
They don’t get it then, but the goal is to provide an alternative task that is within the capabilities and interests of the majority of players, rather than locking it behind an event that is only within the capabilities and interests of a small minority of the players.
You don’t know the capabilities and interests of the majority. You don’t speak for the majority and you aren’t the majority.
You speak only for yourself.
The fact that you write on the forum already makes you part of a minority.
You also don’t know how many people completed Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass. ArenaNet said the participation is higher then expected.
The majority likely doesn’t care about raids and easy mode raids.
Post me a quote before HoT that said that ArenaNet has to put legendary armor behind raids. It doesn’t exist. It was the decision from ArenaNet.
I kind of wish the forums were easier to search, because plenty of people were asking ANet for raids, AND asking for either Legendary armor or something of equivalent exclusivity.
Yeah they asked for legendary armor and raids. But that were different people with different context. It was ArenaNets own decision to put the armor in the raid.
Effort is a form of exclusive gating. So there are still people excluded even after a different way to obtain the rewards.
So you’re saying “if we relax the restrictions at all, then we have to basically just give out everything as log-in rewards?” I don’t think that’s true. All things in moderation, I think that there’s a reasonable middle-ground between the current difficulty of raids and “no effort at all.” The goal is to make them available to most players, which is something the existing raids fail to do.
It is not the goal to make everything accessible to almost everyone. It is your goal to make things you like accessible to the point you are included.
The current raid is already middle-ground. Only because the content pre HoT outside of some dungeons weren’t challenging enough to learn about the gameplay doesn’t mean that the raids are ‘hard mode’. It just amplifies that the old content had a fundamental design problem.
Including most players still excludes some. You are against exclusive rewards.
I’m against content being exclusive to one specific type of content, like ONLY PvP or ONLY one type of raid. I am against content being exclusive to only a very small minority of players. In that sense, I am broadly against exclusivity, but I do not take it to the extremes that you suggest, I do not believe that every reward should be example to every player, regardless of the effort they want to put in, I do think that time and effort need to be a part of the process, just that the requirements should be balanced around what the average player is willing and able to put in, not around what the extreme fringe of the playerbase is willing and able to put in.
I take responsibility for the positions I take, but not for the positions you want to apply to me.
Thats funny. The average player doesn’t even bother with legendary weapons. So why should they now with raids and legendary armor? And you don’t know what the average player wants to invest to get the rewards, most average players don’t care about the forum.
Legendary items are the definition of exclusive content and they were designed for that.
So should we now get a ‘light’ version with stat swap and reduced effects and half of the materials and time needed?
hmm, of course raid reward is a thing. you beat it, you have rewards.
I have to assume that your misunderstanding is deliberate, not accidental. You’re better than that. You can be better than that. My point was that the things the raid currently rewards are not what a raid has to reward, and do not belong exclusively to raids in any inalienable manner. They are not inherently raid rewards. The raid currently rewards them, nothing else currently does, but the next patch could come out an the raid could reward different stuff, and the stuff currently being rewarded by raids could be rewarded elsewhere. The raid and raiders do not in perpetuity “own” the rewards currently being offered.
Wrong, you can change stats from ascended armor in the mystic forge, loosing the rune. But that doesn’t matter as the rune is useless anyway if you change the stats on legendary armor. And you can do this many times until you reach the cost of the legendary armor.
and i think most raiders are perfectly fine with having legendary armor in other part of the game, such at pvp or wvw.
Or easy mode raids, for players who do not enjoy PvP, or WvW, or the current hard mode raids. There si no reason to exclude these players from having alternatives.
Personnaly, i’m against your idea because you just want to bypass a skill gate by a time gate, which will totally devalue the skill gate.
Because the skill gate should have no value. I mean, if you like skill, that’s great, go for it, and maybe earn the rewards faster that way, but it shouldn’t entitle you to exclusive access to the rewards.
Liadri would like to have a word with you.
Moreover, you’re not willing to put the same effort as i put in learning raid. And no, time is not the same as skill.
But I am willing to put in that much, or more effort into doing the easy mode raid. Stop trying to act like me “mastering the raid” would be equivalent to you doing so. Clearly you obtain at least some enjoyment from the raiding process, it is at least somewhat fun for you, or at the very least not so unpleasant that the eventual reward is not invalidated by the struggle. That is not true for everyone.
Let me give you an example of what I mean. Did your mom ever tell you to eat your vegetables? Maybe you didn’t want to? I can’t really assume, because everyone is different. Here is an article on the subject: http://io9.gizmodo.com/are-there-some-vegetables-you-cant-stand-it-may-be-gen-1532668567
Different people literally taste foods differently, so while to some people, a certain food might merely be slightly unpleasant, and they can stuff it down, or some people actually enjoy it, to others it is truly nasty. Telling such a person “I ate my vegetables, so if you want your desert you should too,” is not you asking for them to experience the same thing you experienced for the same reward, it is you asking them to experience something far worse than you did for the same reward. I know myself, I know how I experience content like this, and I know that I will never enjoy it at any level, so me experiencing the exact same experiences you do will feel worse for me than it will for you, it is not “equivalent.”
If you did experience raiding the same way I do, there is no way you would consider it a reasonable activity for people to play. I accept that people react to experiences differently, so I’m fine with experiences I do not like being in the game, so long as I’m not expected to participate in them to get the things I want, I just wish you had the empathy to do the same.
And again you say that you aren’t the target audience for raids. Yet you want to have an influx in raid development. Maybe stop messing with things you know basically nothing about.
(edited by Miellyn.6847)
if we relax the effort, it’s perfectly normal to relax the rewards.
And we are. You would get less for easy mode than for hard, requiring you to do easy mode several times to make the equivalent of hard. That is fair. What would not be fair is to say “if you do easy mode, even for months or years, you will NEVER get this reward. You can ONLY get it through hard mode.”
Again, think about story dungeon and explorable dungeon. The first one is basically easy mode, with no reward except some money. Easy mode raid could be like that, i will be perfectly fine with that.
That’s nice that you would be perfectly fine with that, it’s very magnanimous of you to give up nothing at all in order to make so few players happy, but that’s not what I’d want, and not what would benefit the game. Almost nobody runs Story mode more than once, I know some do, but probably less than currently run raids. We need something that people will want to repeat, at the very least it would need rewards equivalent to the time and effort it would take to complete, which would be equivalent to an exploration-path dungeon.
Again, I’m not entirely opposed to the easy mode raids offering no path to Legendary, so long as there is some other PvE path of equivalent difficulty, I just see easy mode as being the simplest option to implement.
and who are you to decide what a raid can or cannot reward? you’re talking like you’re the only one with the TRUTH. It’s Anet decision, respect it at last ^^
That’s what I just said to you.
And, btw, we’re not entitle to exclusive reward, we just have raid rewards because we’re doing raid, that’s all. It’s the same as you not having raid rewards because you don’t want to raid.
Right, so if they make it so that those rewards can be earned through other means, then both of us would be happy.
More effort? how? it’s easy raid, you want it tunned so that almost everyone can beat it. there is no effort in that for many of us. And you talk about more time, but again, for me more time would mean 10 times as us, or more.
I’ve discussed this up thread, but I would even be ok with ten times as much, although in that case they’d have to change things up a bit, because if it took say three months realtime to earn the rewards in hard mode, taking 2.5 years to earn it via easy mode is a bit preposterous, but they could make it so that it would take ten times as many runs, but on daily lockout rather than weekly, so that instead of taking 12 runs over 12 weeks to get it in hard mode, it would take 120 runs over 17 weeks on easy mode, or perhaps even a bit more than that (and of course would start months after hard mode, so hard mode people who started when the raid opened would have exclusive access for months before even the most dedicated easy mode people).
I’m just really tired of this “it’s sooooooooo easy, I can sleepwalk through it” whinging nonsense. That may be true for you, fine. No one cares. It’s not true for most of the people playing this game, and it’s more important that they are happy than that you are happy, because they outnumber you. Playing through a dungeon-level difficulty content IS an effort for most players, and that’s what content should be balanced around, not around what the 1% can pull off.
If people want to play hard content like that, then that’s fine, it should be around for them, but they should be playing it because they want the challenge, and their reward is that challenge, not because they want better loot than everyone else gets. If ANet offers you better loot for playing how you enjoy, then you accept it with gratitude and humility, and you don’t throw a fit if they decide to also offer those rewards to your “lessers.” You are not owed that better loot, ANet has gifted it to you. Be grateful, not greedy.
The “lessers” as you call them, lol, can have a LA but not with a dumbed down version of raids (and believe me, I am including myself in this demographic), if Anet ever comes up with a good, sustainable plan for it. Like the original GW had elite zones, let GW2 have its share of elite zones. That is how you retain players: give players options to either have an easy content and a more difficult content. The state of the game as it is now have that: dungeons, open world bosses and fractals for easy stuff while raids for the people who like it or the people who mastered the previous content and got bored with it. What matters here is to give a sense of progression, which was severely lacking in core GW2 before. And you don’t give a sense of progression if Anet has to create a dumbed down version of every content they create while giving the same rewards for whatever level of difficulty players choose to complete. Anyway the bottom line issue with you, imo, is that you fail to understand that LA is not superior in any wayyyyyyy
The “lessers” as you call them, lol, can have a LA but not with a dumbed down version of raids (and believe me, I am including myself in this demographic), if Anet ever comes up with a good, sustainable plan for it. Like the original GW had elite zones, let GW2 have its share of elite zones. That is how you retain players: give players options to either have an easy content and a more difficult content. The state of the game as it is now have that: dungeons, open world bosses and fractals for easy stuff while raids for the people who like it or the people who mastered the previous content and got bored with it. What matters here is to give a sense of progression, which was severely lacking in core GW2 before. And you don’t give a sense of progression if Anet has to create a dumbed down version of every content they create while giving the same rewards for whatever level of difficulty players choose to complete. Anyway the bottom line issue with you, imo, is that you fail to understand that LA is not superior in any wayyyyyyy
It’s almost like people don’t want to learn from mistakes from other games, choose to ignore them or try to find a fictional benefit.
Why is it fair ? If you want it to be fair, you have to provide me the proof that the amount of effort is the same. So far, you fail to do it… Harder work means better rewards, it’s normal.
You haven’t provided proof that the amount of effort would be different. You basically insist, purely subjectively, that anything less than hard mode raiding is basically infinitely less effort, that no amount of it could add up to clearing hard mode even once. Well if that’s your stance then I’m afraid I can’t do anything to appease you, but luckily you don’t actually matter, and whatever ANet ends up doing, they’ll do whether you agree or not.
Equivalent difficulty to hard mode raid, yes.
No, equivalent to easy mode. The entire point is to open it up to more people. Equivalent to hard mode would be pointless, because if you can already do hard mode, do hard mode. What is needed is a method for people who can’t do hard mode.
Daily easy mode raid is not the equivalent of weekly normal raid. Try again. Your solution is just a little daily grind, another one…
Again, I can’t imagine anything that will satisfy you, so I’ll just write you off as “impossible to negotiate with” and go around you, since you have no actual control over anything.
Irrelevant. Anet chose to put some reward behind à content balanced around some players, yes. And what’s wrong with that ? All other part of the game is balanced for all the other people.
And that exactly IS the problem. If you make a game where everything is super hard, and then tie the rewards behind being super skilled, then fair enough. If someone doesn’t like super hard content then they have no role to play in ANY part of the game and just shouldn’t be there. But if you have a game where MOST of the content is a certain level of difficulty, then you have to assume that MOST of the people playing it are at that level of skill, otherwise they would get bored and leave. So adding content that excludes players of that skill level harms the overall satisfaction level of the game. It’s ok to have content that is at a much higher level than the average, but you shouldn’t penalize players for not participating in that content by locking out story, rewards, or interesting encounters from them. You need to provide alternatives.
Since we have to put some work and effort, it’s not a gift.
Of course it is. You are not providing a service. You are not “putting in work,” you are playing a game. Playing a part of the game that is harder than others is not WORK. Work is when you actually accomplish something, when you, say, remove trash that would otherwise cause disease, or when you design a new building, or when you stock shelves at a supermarket, that is work, and that has earned a reward. Nothing inside a game (except possibly EVE Online), constitutes “work.”
If you complete a raid, you are not accomplishing “more work” than someone harvesting moas in Queensdale. For you to be accomplishing “more work,” you would actually have to be improving ANet’s bottom line more than that moa farmer. But you aren’t. You’re both just playing the game, not making ANet a penny more, and if he ends up spending more gems than you, then he is actually doing “more work” for ANet than you are. If you’re choosing to raid, it’s because of all the things you could be doing, raiding is the thing you enjoy most. If you’re doing anything else, then you’re doing it wrong.
Anything you do within GW2 is play, no matter how long you do it, no matter how much skill it takes, it is play, an if the developers choose to hand out rewards based on how you play, that is a gift, not earned wages. Now obviously games have rules, and if they promise to give you something in exchange for a task, then they should always live up to that promise, but they can change those rules at any time, and what you earn from raiding tomorrow can be totally different from what it is today. They do not owe you that the rules attached to raiding offer you anything in particular, they have just chosen for that to currently be the case.
The current raid is already middle-ground. Only because the content pre HoT outside of some dungeons weren’t challenging enough to learn about the gameplay doesn’t mean that the raids are ‘hard mode’. It just amplifies that the old content had a fundamental design problem.
You do understand that all players do not enjoy content of the same difficulty you enjoy, right? You understand that these players are not somehow “wrong” just because they do not enjoy content of that difficulty? You understand that these players have just as much right to enjoy the game as you do?
What matters here is to give a sense of progression, which was severely lacking in core GW2 before. And you don’t give a sense of progression if Anet has to create a dumbed down version of every content they create while giving the same rewards for whatever level of difficulty players choose to complete.
The important thing is to not leave out those who don’t WANT to progress. Some people around here talk about progression if it’s this inevitable thing, that every player should WANT to get constantly better and better until they are as good as the best players. That’s not a thing. Some people want that, and that’s great, and they should have activities that challenge them, but not everybody cares about that, and they shouldn’t feel pressured to “progress,” they shouldn’t feel that they are missing out on cool things. Progression should be for those that enjoy it, it should not be pressured for those that do not.
Not really it’s more like à logical thing. Raiders are doing raids, so they deserve raid rewards. People that don’t want to do raids don’t deserve the raid rewards. It’s so logical and normal…
Like all other things in gw2…
Ofc raiders deserve raid rewards. Raids don’t deserve raid legendary armor being only legendary armor in game, though.
Why is it fair ? If you want it to be fair, you have to provide me the proof that the amount of effort is the same. So far, you fail to do it… Harder work means better rewards, it’s normal.
You haven’t provided proof that the amount of effort would be different. You basically insist, purely subjectively, that anything less than hard mode raiding is basically infinitely less effort, that no amount of it could add up to clearing hard mode even once. Well if that’s your stance then I’m afraid I can’t do anything to appease you, but luckily you don’t actually matter, and whatever ANet ends up doing, they’ll do whether you agree or not.
And you haven’t provided a proof that they are equivalent. You can’t compare a activity which promotes teamplay with a pure timely gated grind and your proposed easy mode won’t provide any teamplay with the difficulty you want.
And that exactly IS the problem. If you make a game where everything is super hard, and then tie the rewards behind being super skilled, then fair enough. If someone doesn’t like super hard content then they have no role to play in ANY part of the game and just shouldn’t be there. But if you have a game where MOST of the content is a certain level of difficulty, then you have to assume that MOST of the people playing it are at that level of skill, otherwise they would get bored and leave. So adding content that excludes players of that skill level harms the overall satisfaction level of the game. It’s ok to have content that is at a much higher level than the average, but you shouldn’t penalize players for not participating in that content by locking out story, rewards, or interesting encounters from them. You need to provide alternatives.
But the raid is not super hard. It is just harder than the rest of the PvE, but not super hard.
You don’t have to provide an alternative way for the rewards. Even ‘The Great Example’ WoW, where this nonsense started, removed rewards from the easy mode aka LFR and ‘locked’ them behind coordinated raids.
You can experience the story in an empty instance. It is not like WoW where parts of the story are tied with boss fights and boss interactions during the fight. Everything is found on the floor. The cinematic after Matthias can replayed in his room after he is dead. So the solution for a story mode could be an empty instance.
The encounter aren’t interesting if you can ignore the mechanics, which would be possible in your easy mode.
The addition of multiple difficulties in WoW resulted in overall less content varity, effectivly forcing people into content they don’t like if they want the same amout they had before.
https://inanage.com/2015/07/08/wow-content-comparison/
Since we have to put some work and effort, it’s not a gift.
Of course it is. You are not providing a service. You are not “putting in work,” you are playing a game. Playing a part of the game that is harder than others is not WORK. Work is when you actually accomplish something, when you, say, remove trash that would otherwise cause disease, or when you design a new building, or when you stock shelves at a supermarket, that is work, and that has earned a reward. Nothing inside a game (except possibly EVE Online), constitutes “work.”
If you complete a raid, you are not accomplishing “more work” than someone harvesting moas in Queensdale. For you to be accomplishing “more work,” you would actually have to be improving ANet’s bottom line more than that moa farmer. But you aren’t. You’re both just playing the game, not making ANet a penny more, and if he ends up spending more gems than you, then he is actually doing “more work” for ANet than you are. If you’re choosing to raid, it’s because of all the things you could be doing, raiding is the thing you enjoy most. If you’re doing anything else, then you’re doing it wrong.
Anything you do within GW2 is play, no matter how long you do it, no matter how much skill it takes, it is play, an if the developers choose to hand out rewards based on how you play, that is a gift, not earned wages. Now obviously games have rules, and if they promise to give you something in exchange for a task, then they should always live up to that promise, but they can change those rules at any time, and what you earn from raiding tomorrow can be totally different from what it is today. They do not owe you that the rules attached to raiding offer you anything in particular, they have just chosen for that to currently be the case.
The current raid is already middle-ground. Only because the content pre HoT outside of some dungeons weren’t challenging enough to learn about the gameplay doesn’t mean that the raids are ‘hard mode’. It just amplifies that the old content had a fundamental design problem.
You do understand that all players do not enjoy content of the same difficulty you enjoy, right? You understand that these players are not somehow “wrong” just because they do not enjoy content of that difficulty? You understand that these players have just as much right to enjoy the game as you do?
Yes, and every MMORPG that introduced difficulty scales ended up with less content varity than before the difficulty scales. Do you want that? With that you are forcing people into raids if they want the same amount of content they had before and you said nobody should be forced into raids.
What matters here is to give a sense of progression, which was severely lacking in core GW2 before. And you don’t give a sense of progression if Anet has to create a dumbed down version of every content they create while giving the same rewards for whatever level of difficulty players choose to complete.
The important thing is to not leave out those who don’t WANT to progress. Some people around here talk about progression if it’s this inevitable thing, that every player should WANT to get constantly better and better until they are as good as the best players. That’s not a thing. Some people want that, and that’s great, and they should have activities that challenge them, but not everybody cares about that, and they shouldn’t feel pressured to “progress,” they shouldn’t feel that they are missing out on cool things. Progression should be for those that enjoy it, it should not be pressured for those that do not.
Nobody is forced to do raids. People who don’t want to progess lock themselves out of the content, not the developer.
Not really it’s more like à logical thing. Raiders are doing raids, so they deserve raid rewards. People that don’t want to do raids don’t deserve the raid rewards. It’s so logical and normal…
Like all other things in gw2…Ofc raiders deserve raid rewards. Raids don’t deserve raid legendary armor being only legendary armor in game, though.
I totally agree with you. That’s why i hope next legendary will come for pvp and wvw. Because pve doesn’t deserve legendary armor being only legendary armor in game, ofc (yes, raid is pve ^^).
The thing is, some players like having some reward systems based on skill, so not everybody can just grind their way through ( DING DING arenanet hates grind). The reward system you propose is a grindbased one combined with a skilled based one. However you fail to acknowledge that when you push the grind system , you are taking away from the skilled people. The two cannot coexist.
The skill based system would get you there faster, that’s the advantage. Beyond that, skill-based rewards can be things like titles or stat boosts, but should not lock down important things like skins. The thing about grind is, whether you enjoy it or not, anyone can do it. With skill-based, some people can’t, so you’re locking it out from those people. One person being happy because he has something only 1/10 people have is nice, but it is better for 10/10 people being happy because they all have that thing.
You blow up your problem, it is not a problem within the community, most people are perfectly fine with not getting legendary armor,
Cite.
People who lack the skill to obtain legendary armor and still want it, guess what they do? They improve over a certain period of time, this is how they slowly acquire their legendary set, just like you wanted.
No. Wanting to improve and do the hard content eventually works for some players, but not for all. You can’t forward that as a catch-all solution.
Now I say people buying raids for ridiculous amounts of gold still is alot more prestigious than being able to get it after spending hours in an easy mode raid. Why don’t you ask the raid community what they find more prestigious? Probably cause you already know the answer, and it is not an answer you can use for your arguments.
Yes, I’m sure that the raid community is terribly impressed by people AFKing their way through the raids, and aren’t just saying that because it’s in their economic interests to Sherpa them. That is totally how the world works.
Whenever I see a player with a HOT legendary or Glorious hero armor, I’m impressed cause I cannot get those skins and get jealous, that experience has value to me and many other players.
Well that’s kind of sad, but don’t project those feelings onto others.
Why is it so bad for skill gates to lock out important rewards? Legendary skins are meant to be exclusive, just look how legendary weapons and back pieces exclude a vast majority of players. Overtime unwealthy players may get the resources needed for these rewards. Personally I cannot be bothered to spend so many hours doing boring content, it doesnt work for me. However I am perfectly fine with not getting legendary weapons.
Quite similar but with a different flavor the legendary armor collection adds a more skill based gate. Unskilled players however can accumulate more pve knowledge and skill, so they can get to the point where they clear a raid and are heavily rewarded as they can now complete the collection. And why shouldnt they be significantly rewarded after making such significant progress as a player. If easy mode raiding is meant to help players to achieve greater skill, I am all for it.
Also I would hope anet will put in more skill gates, and systems that do promote players to get better, as these require players to actually mind all the beautifull mechanics Anet did put in the game and overall provides for a more engaging experience.
The moment you introduce Easy Mode Raiding as an effortless path to obtain legendary armor, players have no reason to be engaged in the gameplay nor feel an incentive to improve and will opt for the brain dead EZ Mode.
Do ya know how many players are able to low man raids? Its an incredible small percentage of the raid community. What does this mean? A very small percentage of the players that completed raids will have bought it. However the moment you add in easy mode, everybody will be able to complete the raid brain dead and the amount of players able to finish the collection will be alot higher. In otherwords easy mode will be less prestigious. Also has it occured to you that when you lower the skill cap to about dungeon level, 10 players will be unhappy cause we now all can get Legendary skins easily? Finally might I add that you do not know whether the wing 3 can be low manned.
I have no numbers, I observe from playing the game and interacting with guildies while clearing difficult content rather than lobying on forums collectiing data so I can lobby for an easy way out. But I see you care for numbers? How about you start citing yours?
I think its about time this thread is closed.
(edited by DutchRiders.2871)
And you haven’t provided a proof that they are equivalent. You can’t compare a activity which promotes teamplay with a pure timely gated grind and your proposed easy mode won’t provide any teamplay with the difficulty you want.
Again, it’s entirely subjective. It’s like saying “how many apples is a carrot worth?” I mean you can weigh them, count calories, vitamins, etc., but ultimately each person has their own standards and there’s no objective way to say that X repetitions of activity A are equal to Y repetitions of activity B. I’m resigned that people like you and Hyp will never agree that any amount of easy mode raiding should be equivalent to a single hard mode raid completion, but that’s fine, since you don’t actually matter.
You can’t compare a activity which promotes teamplay with a pure timely gated grind and your proposed easy mode won’t provide any teamplay with the difficulty you want.
Maybe you can’t, but I can. Again, subjective. You value certain qualities as having infinitely more value than others, I disagree.
But the raid is not super hard. It is just harder than the rest of the PvE, but not super hard.
It’s super hard relative to the other content. Again, you don’t have to agree with that assessment, you just have to accept that it is true regardless of whether you agree. You are not the arbiter of whether or not it is hard for others.
You don’t have to provide an alternative way for the rewards. Even ‘The Great Example’ WoW, where this nonsense started, removed rewards from the easy mode aka LFR and ‘locked’ them behind coordinated raids.
Yes, WoW was awful, which is why so many people fled to GW2, to avoid the awful. . . which they added with HoT and now those people will have to look for someplace else to go if things continue along those lines.
The encounter aren’t interesting if you can ignore the mechanics, which would be possible in your easy mode.
Again, you say this, and for you it may be true, but you are not the audience for easy mode, you have hard mode, which you claim is “easy” for you. For others, the mechanics still matter even if they are not quite so deadly. you cannot tell other people that they have to not care about the mechanics just because they aren’t instantly lethal. To some people, a paintball is a paintball and they’ll yolo it, to others they still take it deadly serious and will avoid getting hit at all costs. It’s up to them.
Yes, and every MMORPG that introduced difficulty scales ended up with less content varity than before the difficulty scales. Do you want that? With that you are forcing people into raids if they want the same amount of content they had before and you said nobody should be forced into raids.
You have no idea how much more or less content we would receive if they implemented easy mode raids. None. You can say WoW had more or less content after various points, but you have no basis to claim that raid difficulty modes were the determining factor in that. They may have shifted resources into entirely different aspects of the game, or even into entirely different projects. It could have more to do with Hearthstone than difficulty levels.
I’ll repeat to make this clear, while we don’t know how many resources easy mode would take, what we do know FOR CERTAIN is that it would take less resources than ANY completely original content of equivalent scale. Any such content would require all the same resources easy mode would, PLUS new environments, animations, models, original attack mechanics, story content, story placement, balancing, etc..
I do not favor them shifting all or most of their development into easy mode raids, and if that’s the bargain, then I don’t want it any more than you do, I just don’t believe for a second that that’s the bargain. I fully believe that we could have easy mode raids, of the type I laid out, with very minimal disruption to the workflow of other projects, less than a single patch cycle’s delay in any other projects.
Nobody is forced to do raids. People who don’t want to progess lock themselves out of the content, not the developer.
No. No, that’s not how it works. Not everyone progresses, not everyone wants to progress, not everyone should want to progress. Forcing players to progress if they want to keep playing the new content is not given them a true choice, it’s giving them a Hobson’s choice. Players should have a GENUINE choice. do you WANT to do this? Yes? Then you can! No? Then you don’t have to, you can do this instead and get all the stuff you would have gotten out of that other thing.
Unskilled players however can accumulate more pve knowledge and skill, so they can get to the point where they clear a raid and are heavily rewarded as they can now complete the collection. And why shouldnt they be significantly rewarded after making such significant progress as a player. If easy mode raiding is meant to help players to achieve greater skill, I am all for it.
A player having higher skill does not benefit anything. ANet does not make any more money off of a higher skill player than off of a lower skill player. There is no reason to incentivize players to gain skill, players should just gain skill at whatever rate THEY enjoy, to whatever level THEY enjoy. So long as THEY are having fun, then the system is working. The moment they stop having fun and start working to “git gud” because they feel like they must, the game has failed them.
However the moment you add in easy mode, everybody will be able to complete the raid brain dead and the amount of players able to finish the collection will be alot higher. In otherwords easy mode will be less prestigious.
It’s impossible to be less prestigious than zero, which is what it hit the moment the first player bought a raid.
And you haven’t provided a proof that they are equivalent. You can’t compare a activity which promotes teamplay with a pure timely gated grind and your proposed easy mode won’t provide any teamplay with the difficulty you want.
Again, it’s entirely subjective. It’s like saying “how many apples is a carrot worth?” I mean you can weigh them, count calories, vitamins, etc., but ultimately each person has their own standards and there’s no objective way to say that X repetitions of activity A are equal to Y repetitions of activity B. I’m resigned that people like you and Hyp will never agree that any amount of easy mode raiding should be equivalent to a single hard mode raid completion, but that’s fine, since you don’t actually matter.
Ad hominem? You proofed countless times now you can’t discuss in a worthy manner.
You can’t compare a activity which promotes teamplay with a pure timely gated grind and your proposed easy mode won’t provide any teamplay with the difficulty you want.
Maybe you can’t, but I can. Again, subjective. You value certain qualities as having infinitely more value than others, I disagree.
Yes social interaction has a higher value in a multiplayer game than soloplayer grind. If you believe otherwise change the genre and stop destroying MMORPGs.
But the raid is not super hard. It is just harder than the rest of the PvE, but not super hard.
It’s super hard relative to the other content. Again, you don’t have to agree with that assessment, you just have to accept that it is true regardless of whether you agree. You are not the arbiter of whether or not it is hard for others.
It is not super hard compared to other content. Vale Guardian is around Lupicus in difficulty only with 10 players instead of 5. If you can beat him, you have the basics to beat the other bosses.
You don’t have to provide an alternative way for the rewards. Even ‘The Great Example’ WoW, where this nonsense started, removed rewards from the easy mode aka LFR and ‘locked’ them behind coordinated raids.
Yes, WoW was awful, which is why so many people fled to GW2, to avoid the awful. . . which they added with HoT and now those people will have to look for someplace else to go if things continue along those lines.
People ran away from the content drought and the gear treatmill, not missing rewards. How did HoT add a gear treatmill to GW2? Legendary armor has the same stats as ascended it is no gear treatmill.
The encounter aren’t interesting if you can ignore the mechanics, which would be possible in your easy mode.
Again, you say this, and for you it may be true, but you are not the audience for easy mode, you have hard mode, which you claim is “easy” for you. For others, the mechanics still matter even if they are not quite so deadly. you cannot tell other people that they have to not care about the mechanics just because they aren’t instantly lethal. To some people, a paintball is a paintball and they’ll yolo it, to others they still take it deadly serious and will avoid getting hit at all costs. It’s up to them.
If the mechanics are not deadly or posses no threat, you can ignore them.
A mechanic is not easy dependend on how hard it is to avoid. They become hard if they have the chance to wipe your raid.
Yes, and every MMORPG that introduced difficulty scales ended up with less content varity than before the difficulty scales. Do you want that? With that you are forcing people into raids if they want the same amount of content they had before and you said nobody should be forced into raids.
You have no idea how much more or less content we would receive if they implemented easy mode raids. None. You can say WoW had more or less content after various points, but you have no basis to claim that raid difficulty modes were the determining factor in that. They may have shifted resources into entirely different aspects of the game, or even into entirely different projects. It could have more to do with Hearthstone than difficulty levels.
I’ll repeat to make this clear, while we don’t know how many resources easy mode would take, what we do know FOR CERTAIN is that it would take less resources than ANY completely original content of equivalent scale. Any such content would require all the same resources easy mode would, PLUS new environments, animations, models, original attack mechanics, story content, story placement, balancing, etc..
I do not favor them shifting all or most of their development into easy mode raids, and if that’s the bargain, then I don’t want it any more than you do, I just don’t believe for a second that that’s the bargain. I fully believe that we could have easy mode raids, of the type I laid out, with very minimal disruption to the workflow of other projects, less than a single patch cycle’s delay in any other projects.
The content/feature patch cycle is 3 months, way too long for an pointless easy mode.
And you steal developer time from new enviroments, encounters which could be used for new maps or open world encounter events, effectivly hurting the game in the long run. Higher skilled people will always have more content to play with.
Nobody is forced to do raids. People who don’t want to progess lock themselves out of the content, not the developer.
No. No, that’s not how it works. Not everyone progresses, not everyone wants to progress, not everyone should want to progress. Forcing players to progress if they want to keep playing the new content is not given them a true choice, it’s giving them a Hobson’s choice. Players should have a GENUINE choice. do you WANT to do this? Yes? Then you can! No? Then you don’t have to, you can do this instead and get all the stuff you would have gotten out of that other thing.
They have the choice now but have to meet the requirements.
Unskilled players however can accumulate more pve knowledge and skill, so they can get to the point where they clear a raid and are heavily rewarded as they can now complete the collection. And why shouldnt they be significantly rewarded after making such significant progress as a player. If easy mode raiding is meant to help players to achieve greater skill, I am all for it.
A player having higher skill does not benefit anything. ANet does not make any more money off of a higher skill player than off of a lower skill player. There is no reason to incentivize players to gain skill, players should just gain skill at whatever rate THEY enjoy, to whatever level THEY enjoy. So long as THEY are having fun, then the system is working. The moment they stop having fun and start working to “git gud” because they feel like they must, the game has failed them.
‘hard core’ players tend to stick longer with games than your so called ‘casuals’.
Yes social interaction has a higher value in a multiplayer game than soloplayer grind. If you believe otherwise change the genre and stop destroying MMORPGs.
Ironically, traditionally raids are the greatest killer of social interaction. Long term, they only tend to poison the community and destroy guilds. Been there, saw that, do not want it again.
It is not super hard compared to other content. Vale Guardian is around Lupicus in difficulty only with 10 players instead of 5. If you can beat him, you have the basics to beat the other bosses.
You must be joking, right? Lupicus is relatively easy if you just don’t try to be cool and meta, and just decide to play it safe and range him.
People ran away from the content drought and the gear treatmill, not missing rewards.
People ran away from the toxic effect raids had on community there.
If the mechanics are not deadly or posses no threat, you can ignore them.
A mechanic is not easy dependend on how hard it is to avoid. They become hard if they have the chance to wipe your raid.
Sure. It has no bearing on whether they are interesting or not, however. Also, the difficulty is relative, remember? If something is too difficult, it stops being fun very fast.
They have the choice now but have to meet the requirements.
…yes, the “choice”: My way or the highway.
‘hard core’ players tend to stick longer with games than your so called ‘casuals’.
That may be true on average on individual level (depending on how you count it), but it is more than balanced by population inequality. There’s always way more casuals than hardcores. Also, it’s more like correlation than causation – it’s not that hardcores are more likely to stay. It’s that people that tend to stay longer are more likely to be hardcores. Forcing a casual to change into hardcore will not make him stay longer. It can only make him leave earlier.
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
The your way or the highway works both ways I gave examples I don’t want to do OW Pve but I want a Legendary weapon from HoT so I will never get it unless I do OW PvE guess what instantly I am excluded from that reward from your argument. You will probably try to rebuttal this argument with you can still do OW PvE to get the Legendary, which would be you telling me to suck it up and do something I don’t like in the first place.
You and Ohoni say that you want to have easy mode raids because Legendary armor should be for anyone, it already is you just have to do the content that provides it, then you say that the target audience is for Non raiders, raids were never meant for Non raiders as the Target audience, and so far raids have brought in more people playing them than the target audience Anet originally expected based on dev quotes, until you provide actual numbers disputing the Devs claim you cannot for certain say that raiders are the Minority and by how much, bring real numbers or a statement from the Devs to support your claims on raids and participation.
Easy mode raids would not attract non raiders because non raiders don’t like raids in the first place, and what’s to say easy mode raids wouldn’t become as toxic as Dungeons and FoTM were?
@ Ohoni Again every part of the game besides ow PvE and WvW have a skill gated Legendary, but you don’t care about making those Braindead easier because you have stated you are able to acquire them, this is only an issue because you can’t acquire the Legendary Armor.
Ps. I’m not a hardcore raider most time is spent in sPvP and WvW, I have raided a whole 13 times since raids were introduced and only haven’t cleared it and quit 2 of Those times, I only raid when my friends need a slot filled and I feel like helping them, I could care less about Legendary armor, but the claims that it should be handed out through an easier means is what I find wrong you either put the effort in or you don’t get it pretty simple.
The thing is, some players like having some reward systems based on skill, so not everybody can just grind their way through ( DING DING arenanet hates grind). The reward system you propose is a grindbased one combined with a skilled based one. However you fail to acknowledge that when you push the grind system , you are taking away from the skilled people. The two cannot coexist.
The skill based system would get you there faster, that’s the advantage. Beyond that, skill-based rewards can be things like titles or stat boosts, but should not lock down important things like skins. The thing about grind is, whether you enjoy it or not, anyone can do it. With skill-based, some people can’t, so you’re locking it out from those people. One person being happy because he has something only 1/10 people have is nice, but it is better for 10/10 people being happy because they all have that thing.
You blow up your problem, it is not a problem within the community, most people are perfectly fine with not getting legendary armor,
Cite.
People who lack the skill to obtain legendary armor and still want it, guess what they do? They improve over a certain period of time, this is how they slowly acquire their legendary set, just like you wanted.
No. Wanting to improve and do the hard content eventually works for some players, but not for all. You can’t forward that as a catch-all solution.
Now I say people buying raids for ridiculous amounts of gold still is alot more prestigious than being able to get it after spending hours in an easy mode raid. Why don’t you ask the raid community what they find more prestigious? Probably cause you already know the answer, and it is not an answer you can use for your arguments.
Yes, I’m sure that the raid community is terribly impressed by people AFKing their way through the raids, and aren’t just saying that because it’s in their economic interests to Sherpa them. That is totally how the world works.
Whenever I see a player with a HOT legendary or Glorious hero armor, I’m impressed cause I cannot get those skins and get jealous, that experience has value to me and many other players.
Well that’s kind of sad, but don’t project those feelings onto others.
Why is it so bad for skill gates to lock out important rewards? Legendary skins are meant to be exclusive, just look how legendary weapons and back pieces exclude a vast majority of players. Overtime unwealthy players may get the resources needed for these rewards. Personally I cannot be bothered to spend so many hours doing boring content, it doesnt work for me. However I am perfectly fine with not getting legendary weapons.
Quite similar but with a different flavor the legendary armor collection adds a more skill based gate. Unskilled players however can accumulate more pve knowledge and skill, so they can get to the point where they clear a raid and are heavily rewarded as they can now complete the collection. And why shouldnt they be significantly rewarded after making such significant progress as a player. If easy mode raiding is meant to help players to achieve greater skill, I am all for it.
Also I would hope anet will put in more skill gates, and systems that do promote players to get better, as these require players to actually mind all the beautifull mechanics Anet did put in the game and overall provides for a more engaging experience.
The moment you introduce Easy Mode Raiding as an effortless path to obtain legendary armor, players have no reason to be engaged in the gameplay nor feel an incentive to improve and will opt for the brain dead EZ Mode.
Do ya know how many players are able to low man raids? Its an incredible small percentage of the raid community. What does this mean? A very small percentage of the players that completed raids will have bought it. However the moment you add in easy mode, everybody will be able to complete the raid brain dead and the amount of players able to finish the collection will be alot higher. In otherwords easy mode will be less prestigious. Also has it occured to you that when you lower the skill cap to about dungeon level, 10 players will be unhappy cause we now all can get Legendary skins easily? Finally might I add that you do not know whether the wing 3 can be low manned.
I have no numbers, I observe from playing the game and interacting with guildies while clearing difficult content rather than lobying on forums collectiing data so I can lobby for an easy way out. But I see you care for numbers? How about you start citing yours?
I think its about time this thread is closed.
Again we have an assumption that easier mode raid means “effortless”. That thinking is flawed.
Many games have used difficulty settings and modes for content, it’s not uncommon or bad. What is bad for a game is elitist attitudes from players. Negative attitudes do not build strong communities, they only serve to separate.
Raids a generally not well received in mmos so Anet will take that into account because they are seeing first hand the divide. While they might say that raid participation is statistically doing ok, they know they could still do a lot better to get more players involved.
I have yet to see many of you who oppose say that easier mode would be a great tool to help introduce raids and teach players… or that having a support mode, normal mode and hard mode is a great progression tool for their friends and guildies who don’t want to try… Instead, I see a lot of less than objective comments, ones that revolve around excluding others, basically “l2p” and “time this thread is closed” comments…
(edited by Swagger.1459)
Again we have an assumption that easier mode raid means “effortless”. That thinking is flawed.
Hmm, when we read the advocate of easy raid, their easy mode is really almost effortless, sorry. No wipe mechanisms, no team composition, no team play etc…they want to lower difficulty as dungeon level (which are quite easy now…). The only form of effort I read is doing more easy path in order to have the same reward as normal raid. But since they can’t argument about how transforming skill into time, I’m not at all convinced the amount of effort would be the same.
I have yet to see many of you who oppose say that easier mode would be a great tool to help introduce raids and teach players… or that having a support mode/normal mode and hard mode is a great progression tool for their friends and guildies who don’t want to try… Instead, I see a lot of less than objective comments, ones that revolve around excluding others, basically “l2p” and “time this thread is closed” comments…
You seems to have missed the posts when some raiders have said they would welcome easy raid in order to teach / form more players and introduce them to the raid mechanisms.
Instead, we have a lot of non raider saying that they are not interested in learning, they only want an easy way to have raid rewards. That’s why some of us disagree with them.
I have yet to see many of you who oppose say that easier mode would be a great tool to help introduce raids and teach players… or that having a support mode, normal mode and hard mode is a great progression tool for their friends and guildies who don’t want to try…
Check this out.
How many people are actually flat out against easy mode or difficulty settings in general? Looks like you are confusing people who are against your “ohoni mode” and people who are against “easy mode”.
Most people who make that argument tend to be “fine with an easy mode. . . so long as it’s a complete waste of everyone’s time.”
This thread is not about easy mode anymore. This thread is about ohoni begging for legendary armor. All this “teaching” and “players getting familiar with mechanics” and “progression” is a waste of time for this people. They just want the armor.
More than likely we will have different settings with diffrent levels of rewards (magnetite and legendary insight amounts)
All modes will require effort.
All modes will have progress toward legendary gear collections.
It’s all going to be ok.
The your way or the highway works both ways I gave examples I don’t want to do OW Pve but I want a Legendary weapon from HoT so I will never get it unless I do OW PvE guess what instantly I am excluded from that reward from your argument. You will probably try to rebuttal this argument with you can still do OW PvE to get the Legendary, which would be you telling me to suck it up and do something I don’t like in the first place.
But i’m not telling you to “suck it up”. If you think that there should be an additional, alternative way to get some legendary components, you are completely free to suggest it to devs. I certainly won’t be opposing that. Whenever that question appeared, i have always supported the right of WvW/sPvP players, for example, to get their own paths to PvE legendaries.
Do not assume that everyone is as closeminded as you are.
You and Ohoni say that you want to have easy mode raids because Legendary armor should be for anyone, it already is you just have to do the content that provides it, then you say that the target audience is for Non raiders, raids were never meant for Non raiders
…you don’t see how those two statements practically contradict each other completely?
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
This is one of my favorite threads to read. The amount of effort expended is ridiculous and simultaneously hilarious.
Unskilled players however can accumulate more pve knowledge and skill, so they can get to the point where they clear a raid and are heavily rewarded as they can now complete the collection. And why shouldnt they be significantly rewarded after making such significant progress as a player. If easy mode raiding is meant to help players to achieve greater skill, I am all for it.
A player having higher skill does not benefit anything. ANet does not make any more money off of a higher skill player than off of a lower skill player. There is no reason to incentivize players to gain skill, players should just gain skill at whatever rate THEY enjoy, to whatever level THEY enjoy. So long as THEY are having fun, then the system is working. The moment they stop having fun and start working to “git gud” because they feel like they must, the game has failed them.
However the moment you add in easy mode, everybody will be able to complete the raid brain dead and the amount of players able to finish the collection will be alot higher. In otherwords easy mode will be less prestigious.
It’s impossible to be less prestigious than zero, which is what it hit the moment the first player bought a raid.
Talking about money, does Anet make more money when everybody can have cool looking Legendary armor after grinding through easy mode for 3 months ? After which they probably won’t buy a new outfit O.O.
You say Anet doesn’t benefit from a skilled audience, I say they do for several reasons. First of all one GW2’s main selling point is not being grindy, hence an easy repetive way to get the most prestigious armor in gw2 does not match with that view. Expanding on that, how do you keep the game interesting and give players reasons to log in without making it feel grindy? By adding increasingly more challenging content with more complex mechanics. I know plenty players that quitted gw2 for the trivial content back in the day.
Secondly, shifting from time gating to a more skill based system attracts players that log on for shorter amounts of time and play more engaged, rather than bot like grinders that play 8 hours a day. Guess which type of players have more money in their real wallet and less gold in game….
Third of all, when creating new content like LW which is designed for everybody to experience, Anet always has to keep their skill lv and dumb down the content. However if your player base is more skilled and in general more incentivized to improve, they will clear it more easily.
Stop saying having cleared the raids is not prestigious, I for example disagree and like I said many times you dont even know whether you can low man the last raid wing.
But ofcourse you are not listening or discussing, you are lobying for EZ mode raids and a grindy MMO that gives Legendary armor for no difficulty. For this reason the thread should be closed.
I have yet to see many of you who oppose say that easier mode would be a great tool to help introduce raids and teach players… or that having a support mode, normal mode and hard mode is a great progression tool for their friends and guildies who don’t want to try… Instead, I see a lot of less than objective comments, ones that revolve around excluding others, basically “l2p” and “time this thread is closed” comments…
I have stated plenty of times that I see the value of creating an easy mode for raids. However I strongly oppose to making Legendary armor available through an easy mode. Personally I think that not all rewards should be about spending hours upon hours doing boring repetitive tasks. I think that getting better and progressing your character is a core concept in MMO’s.
Also legendary skins are exclusive in nature, however you give it a negative spin not me. I am perfectly fine with being excluded from creating astrallaria.
The way Ohoni is discussing and arguing for over 20 pages, basically repeating the same argument infinitely ( All players should get legendary armor by grinding their way through, will result in the most players being happy) makes me definitely say this thread should be closed.
(edited by DutchRiders.2871)
This is one of my favorite threads to read. The amount of effort expended is ridiculous and simultaneously hilarious.
I totally agree with this. Best read on the forums ever! Though I would totally laugh if they got their way with easy mode raids giving the loot for the legendary but they ended up making a part of the path to make the full legendary being Raid difficulty boss fights that you have to solo in your own instance. The crying would be glorious!
This thread is pretty stinky so I’m gonna touch on rewards just quickly with a point that I don’t think has been brought up before and then go back to something that hasn’t actually been touched for a while, which is the actual implementation of multiple raids and multiple modes.
If you make legendary armor quickly and easily accessible, it no longer becomes a bonus, it becomes mandatory. You’ll see every pug and their mum going “link legendary armor or no invite for you” to not just raids, but also to deep fractals and maybe even dungeons. Making Legendary Armor practically obtainable by everyone is opening a Pandora’s Box.
Having a low skill barrier with a long grind to compensate doesn’t change this. You just end up in the same position, just further down the line. This means that anyone who wants to be able to PUG is kinda forced into an avenue of doing the easy mode raid, week after week, and that’s obviously not good. When the next series of raid wings launches I do not want “link legendary armor” to be the broad cry of raiding guilds and raiding pugs and if legendary armor is easily accessible I can definitely see that happening.
On actual implementation;
Multiple modes detract from the experience and the feeling of ‘legitimacy’ when it comes to fighting these characters in these settings. Sabetha’s dangerous and her game mechanics should reflect that. This is a problem that exists all across the game; characters which we are told are dangerous are really just pushovers; remember Zhaitan, for example. Did Zhaitan feel like a legitimate threat? Absolutely not. If you add an easy mode in which Sabetha is much much weaker, that removes the feeling of danger, even if the higher mode still exists.
There’re also broad cries of “well it’ll be easy to do they should just do it!” and yes and no. The main issue here is the point of comparison; it’s easier than what? Implementing an entirely new raid? Turning the raid into something else? Those are still resources that could be going towards implementing entirely new content at the end of the day, something which is rather lacking in the current game.
Implementing easy mode raids also locks them out of options in the future. Let’s say that they implement an easy mode for the current raid and then they release an Elona expansion and it has its own raid. Under the current ‘it is what it is’ model, they could tune the Elona raid in any way they like; it could be harder, it could be easier, it could be INSANELY hard. If the game builds an established pattern of having multiple modes then that drastically limits the design space; they need to build an easy mode which is roughly the same as FT Easy, and they need to build a hard mode that is roughly the same as FT Hard. If they want to make a raid that’s exceptionally difficult they’d need to build those two modes as well as Elona Raid Superhard.
Instead of implementing any kind of easy mode they could simply go back to the tried and tested model of raid progression; one raid is harder than the other, you go through the easy raid then you go through the hard raid. This can cut both ways, giving people who want to raid at a lower level the opportunity, doesn’t devalue the achievements of current raiders and ultimately adds more content into the game. It’s still a model that has its warts, but in my experience it’s a proven model in games with ilvl progression. In GW2 it would possibly actually work better; one of the main issues in games with ilvl progression is obsolescence of old content, while GW2’s fixed lvl and ilvl models protect the content from that.
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
Ad hominem? You proofed countless times now you can’t discuss in a worthy manner.
That’s not what an ad hominem is.
Yes social interaction has a higher value in a multiplayer game than soloplayer grind. If you believe otherwise change the genre and stop destroying MMORPGs.
You just described GW2 in a nutshell. That’s why most of us are here.
It is not super hard compared to other content. Vale Guardian is around Lupicus in difficulty only with 10 players instead of 5. If you can beat him, you have the basics to beat the other bosses.
And yet I was able to beat Lupi on my second attempt, within ten minutes of first seeing him, yet spent three hours trying to beat Valge Guardian and never got to phase three. I also spent three hours with Random’s group, which supposedly knew what they were doing, trying to beat Gorseval, still no luck. No, “VG is no harder than other content” is utter nonsense.
People ran away from the content drought and the gear treatmill, not missing rewards. How did HoT add a gear treatmill to GW2? Legendary armor has the same stats as ascended it is no gear treatmill.
And yet Ascended does not have the same stats as Exotic, and before, that was ok, but now the raids makes it very difficult for players without Ascended to win. Yes, some groups have been able to win with far less, but they are the exception, not the rule.
But even beyond gear grind, the other thing people were running away from was the “you MUST group up, ideally with a fixed group that repeats regularly.” The absolute most CORE feature of GW2, the one thing it did better than anyone else, was how with most of the content you could just show up, loosely associate with whoever happened to be around at the time, and it would work out. You’d be fine. The content would work with you on that. You wouldn’t need to pre-organize a party, you wouldn’t need to meticulously curate your build, you’d just show up with what you had, play the content together, have fun, and then go your separate ways. It was beautiful. Every other game I tried since has been a hollow shell in comparison. But then raids sort of ruined that.
If the mechanics are not deadly or posses no threat, you can ignore them.
A mechanic is not easy dependend on how hard it is to avoid. They become hard if they have the chance to wipe your raid.
. . . for you. You really need to preface all of those statements with “for me,” because they really are just your opinion for how YOU enjoy playing games. The same is not true for every player. If you feel this way, then you probably shouldn’t play easy mode raids. You’re welcome to, of course, but I don’t think you’d enjoy them. But just because you wouldn’t enjoy them has zero bearing on whether other people would enjoy them.
The content/feature patch cycle is 3 months, way too long for an pointless easy mode.
I obviously wasn’t talking about a three month cycle, I was talking about the more basic two-week cycle. Basically, if they don’t intend to do easy mode raids now, but plan to come out with the new raid wing in early June, then decided to add easy mode Spirit Vale, then it might push the new raid wing back to mid-june, but I doubt it would even be that bad.
And you steal developer time from new enviroments, encounters which could be used for new maps or open world encounter events, effectivly hurting the game in the long run. Higher skilled people will always have more content to play with.
No, I would steal ZERO developer time from those things, because easy mode would not require those employees. Developers are not fungible, an environment artist basically does one thing, environments. If they decide to add more armor, it doesn’t mean that they have to have less environments, not unless they make a MAJOR shift that would involve hiring and firing, and nobody is suggesting that. The shift from hard mode to easy mode would purely be an encounter developer issue, the guys that work the mob trait spreadsheets. They don’t do environments, they don’t do models, they don’t do animations, those are other guys, and they will still be hard at work on whatever they’re hard at work on.
They have the choice now but have to meet the requirements.
Again, no, they do not have a fair choice, they only have a Hobson’s choice, to either “do the content that you don’t enjoy” or “never get that thing you want.” There needs to be a third option “do something that you can enjoy AND get that thing you want.”
‘hard core’ players tend to stick longer with games than your so called ‘casuals’.
Nope.
This thread is not about easy mode anymore. This thread is about ohoni begging for legendary armor. All this “teaching” and “players getting familiar with mechanics” and “progression” is a waste of time for this people. They just want the armor.
If people want to learn hard mode, then they can do so, and easy mode would be a great tool for that. But what you need to understand is that easy mode can’t JUST be a tool for people on their way to hard mode, it must be able to stand on its own two feet as a valid gameplay mode of its own, because plenty of players will never want to advance to hard mode, and that is totally fine. Hard mode is not and should not be for everyone. It is not “the goal,” it is just another gameplay mode that some people enjoy and others do not. If people want to play hard mode, then they have it available, but if people don’t want to ever play hard mode, there is not something wrong with them that needs fixing.
Talking about money, does Anet make more money when everybody can have cool looking Legendary armor after grinding through easy mode for 3 months ? After which they probably won’t buy a new outfit O.O.
Outfits are a complete waste of time regardless of what happens with raids. If your argument is that people getting Legendary armor would cut into their Outfit sales though, then wouldn’t that mean that raiders would be their worst customers, and should not be at all supported?
First of all one GW2’s main selling point is not being grindy, hence an easy repetive way to get the most prestigious armor in gw2 does not match with that view.
. . .
You just said two completely opposite things.
You basically said “GW2 is known for not being grindy, so it’s a good thing that raiders have to grind against the raid until they beat it.”
Expanding on that, how do you keep the game interesting and give players reasons to log in without making it feel grindy? By adding increasingly more challenging content with more complex mechanics. I know plenty players that quitted gw2 for the trivial content back in the day.
Yeah, not everyone feels that way. The players that feel that “increasingly more challenging content” is a good thing DID leave the game, and mostly didn’t come back. The customers that made GW2 successful over the past three years are the players who DON’T believe that, who DON’T want “increasingly more challenging content” to keep them entertained, they just want novel content, content that is of roughly the same difficulty as the existing stuff, only more of it and in more interesting combinations.
The raid encounters are novel, they offer a whole bunch of new mechanics to work against, but in their current form, if you screw up the mechanics then you wipe and reset, which is frustrating and anti-fun. An easy mode would allow players to tackle those mechanics without the frustration of wipe and reset. Novel content, not challenging content.
Again, if you do like challenging content, hard mode is there for you, but stop pretending that everyone wants that on any level.
Secondly, shifting from time gating to a more skill based system attracts players that log on for shorter amounts of time and play more engaged, rather than bot like grinders that play 8 hours a day. Guess which type of players have more money in their real wallet and less gold in game….
But the time gate itself will be time gated. With current raids you’re expected to spend many consecutive hours challenging the bosses until eventually you might get them on farm, that is the “bot-like grinder” activity you talk about. With easy mode, you might only spend an hour or so a day running raids, and then it would be locked out for that day or week so you’d do something else. It would take longer overall, but require a much smaller time commitment in the short term, so it would appeal to players who “have more important things to do.” Nobody is suggesting a mode where you could easy mode raid for eight hours a day.
Third of all, when creating new content like LW which is designed for everybody to experience, Anet always has to keep their skill lv and dumb down the content. However if your player base is more skilled and in general more incentivized to improve, they will clear it more easily.
This is not a problem that needs a solution. The playerbase does not want to improve and does not have to. General content should be balanced on the idea that they have not. More challenging optional content can be included, but is not the priority.
Stop saying having cleared the raids is not prestigious, I for example disagree and like I said many times you dont even know whether you can low man the last raid wing.
The fact remains that anything you can buy your way through has ZERO prestige.
Personally I think that not all rewards should be about spending hours upon hours doing boring repetitive tasks.
and yet you are in favor of the existing raids, which are exactly that.
I think that getting better and progressing your character is a core concept in MMO’s.
In other MMOs, not in GW2, which is why people love GW2.
If you make legendary armor quickly and easily accessible, it no longer becomes a bonus, it becomes mandatory. You’ll see every pug and their mum going “link legendary armor or no invite for you” to not just raids, but also to deep fractals and maybe even dungeons. Making Legendary Armor practically obtainable by everyone is opening a Pandora’s Box.
Lol, not even remotely.
Ok, for one thing, nobody is talking about making it quickly available. All the options on the table would involve it taking MORE time than the existing options.
Secondly, why would anyone say “link me Legendary?” Because of the “prestige” factor, to show that you have “accomplished something?” Well we’re making it easier to get, so there wouldn’t be that prestige factor. Having Legendary armor wouldn’t prove much as far as your skill level. To prove that you have at least Ascended armor? Why wouldn’t they do the same nowadays with regular ascended?
Even if the gameplay hurdles for getting the armor are lowered, I think we’re all assuming that the gold cost of building the final armor will meet or exceed the costs of a standard set of Ascended, so the increased availability of Legendary armor should not increase the ubiquity of “pink+” armor overall.
Really, the “nightmare scenario” you describe would apply more if they didn’t open up Legendary armor, since if having Legendary armor did mean that you’d completed a bunch of hard mode raiding, then players might start insisting that you needed to flash Legendary to earn a place in a Raid 2.3 or Fractal 150 team or whatever.
Multiple modes detract from the experience and the feeling of ‘legitimacy’ when it comes to fighting these characters in these settings. Sabetha’s dangerous and her game mechanics should reflect that. This is a problem that exists all across the game; characters which we are told are dangerous are really just pushovers; remember Zhaitan, for example. Did Zhaitan feel like a legitimate threat? Absolutely not. If you add an easy mode in which Sabetha is much much weaker, that removes the feeling of danger, even if the higher mode still exists.
That’s up to the individual player which version he prefers. I don’t think the original Zhaitan fight was a particularly interesting encounter, but not because it was “too easy,” just because it didn’t offer a lot of interaction. I don’t think Mouth of Modremoth was much harder, but it was certainly a more interesting fight.
Those are still resources that could be going towards implementing entirely new content at the end of the day, something which is rather lacking in the current game.
Again, most of the resources needed for “entirely new content” wouldn’t be needed for easy mode raids at all. Those people could be working on “entirely new content” the entire time the other developers are working on easy mode raids. It’s not an “either/or” proposition.
If the game builds an established pattern of having multiple modes then that drastically limits the design space; they need to build an easy mode which is roughly the same as FT Easy, and they need to build a hard mode that is roughly the same as FT Hard. If they want to make a raid that’s exceptionally difficult they’d need to build those two modes as well as Elona Raid Superhard.
I don’t think so. I think they would only ever need two modes, one mode that is at roughly the baseline difficulty of the game, which most players can comfortably engage, and then a second that is whatever difficulty they like, including “superhard.” If they make a “superhard” version that makes fans of the current raids cry themselves to sleep at night, ow well, those players always have easy mode to fall back on. There’s really no need to have a middleground that is “hard, but not tooooo hard.” Of course if they want to do that they can, but there’s no reason they would have to.
Instead of implementing any kind of easy mode they could simply go back to the tried and tested model of raid progression; one raid is harder than the other, you go through the easy raid then you go through the hard raid.
Except that escaping from “progression raiding” is one of the very best features of GW2.
If you make legendary armor quickly and easily accessible, it no longer becomes a bonus, it becomes mandatory. You’ll see every pug and their mum going “link legendary armor or no invite for you” to not just raids, but also to deep fractals and maybe even dungeons. Making Legendary Armor practically obtainable by everyone is opening a Pandora’s Box.
Having a low skill barrier with a long grind to compensate doesn’t change this. You just end up in the same position, just further down the line. This means that anyone who wants to be able to PUG is kinda forced into an avenue of doing the easy mode raid, week after week, and that’s obviously not good. When the next series of raid wings launches I do not want “link legendary armor” to be the broad cry of raiding guilds and raiding pugs and if legendary armor is easily accessible I can definitely see that happening.
Why play a game where I can only reach the best type of armor if I raid? Why continue playing a game where I am considered to be an unskilled laborer and second class citizen if I don´t raid? Please note that I wrote best in the knowledge that ascended has the same stats as legendary armor, but still it is better and not only a skin, you won´t convince me otherwise.
Of course you could argue that it is the same situation in wow, but there the best armor is only temporary the best armor until the next expansion where your new baby is invalidated again. Legendary armor will forever be the best armor if Anet stay true to their word that legendary grows with any tier that could be introduced in the future.
Lets assume people are forced into easy raids as you say, where is the difference to forcing them into hard raids to get the same type of reward? Hard raids are excluding some people by default, thats how they should work. From your point of argument, it would be best to limit legandary armor to lets say 20000 pieces and then not give it out anymore to avoid it sweeping through Tyria. And this is the point where I massively disagree with the “reward only vs good build and raid” people. Contingents and gating should never be a thing in GW2. At least not the GW2 that was initially advertised as come as you are and play as long as you want. If that vision is gone, then Anet should clearly state that so people can move on and maybe find an alternative, which are sadly quite thin at the moment.
Protecting people from content for their own sake is a really strange argument in my ears, sorry.
I’m very specific about not wanting to get into discussions about the rewards. It’s a rabbit hole that’s been gone into several times. We have over fourty pages most of which are devoted to the legendary armor. I’d rather talk about actual implementation.
Contingents and gating should never be a thing in GW2. At least not the GW2 that was initially advertised as come as you are and play as long as you want. If that vision is gone, then Anet should clearly state that so people can move on and maybe find an alternative, which are sadly quite thin at the moment.
Since the beginning of the Game Legendary weapons have been gated behind Open World PvE but that’s fine with you because it’s content you enjoy, that has been almost all of the people advocating for giving Legendary armor to easier content view point. You have to realize Legendary gating has been in the game since launch and only now is an issue because they gated 1 legendary item behind content you don’t enjoy.
Ad hominem? You proofed countless times now you can’t discuss in a worthy manner.
That’s not what an ad hominem is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
You said our opion is worthless, that is a direct attack on my persona which is ad hominem.
Yes social interaction has a higher value in a multiplayer game than soloplayer grind. If you believe otherwise change the genre and stop destroying MMORPGs.
You just described GW2 in a nutshell. That’s why most of us are here.
That only applies to Open World PvE, it never applied to sPvP, WvW or Dungeons/Fractals and it doesn’t apply to raids. Raids are not Open World, if you want that stay there and stop destroying raids.
It is not super hard compared to other content. Vale Guardian is around Lupicus in difficulty only with 10 players instead of 5. If you can beat him, you have the basics to beat the other bosses.
And yet I was able to beat Lupi on my second attempt, within ten minutes of first seeing him, yet spent three hours trying to beat Valge Guardian and never got to phase three. I also spent three hours with Random’s group, which supposedly knew what they were doing, trying to beat Gorseval, still no luck. No, “VG is no harder than other content” is utter nonsense.
The rest were also new or just carried you through?
People ran away from the content drought and the gear treatmill, not missing rewards. How did HoT add a gear treatmill to GW2? Legendary armor has the same stats as ascended it is no gear treatmill.
And yet Ascended does not have the same stats as Exotic, and before, that was ok, but now the raids makes it very difficult for players without Ascended to win. Yes, some groups have been able to win with far less, but they are the exception, not the rule.
But even beyond gear grind, the other thing people were running away from was the “you MUST group up, ideally with a fixed group that repeats regularly.” The absolute most CORE feature of GW2, the one thing it did better than anyone else, was how with most of the content you could just show up, loosely associate with whoever happened to be around at the time, and it would work out. You’d be fine. The content would work with you on that. You wouldn’t need to pre-organize a party, you wouldn’t need to meticulously curate your build, you’d just show up with what you had, play the content together, have fun, and then go your separate ways. It was beautiful. Every other game I tried since has been a hollow shell in comparison. But then raids sort of ruined that.
The play how you want always only applied to Open World. How did you do dungeons without a pre-organised group? Or fractals? Alone? And don’t compare dungeons today to raids, compare them to the release state of dungeons. Many people know now what to do in dungeons and can carry someone without knowledge easily.
You should try WoW, LFR fits exactly your needs. WoW changed the direction long ago to fit people like you.
Stop bringing it to other games.
If the mechanics are not deadly or posses no threat, you can ignore them.
A mechanic is not easy dependend on how hard it is to avoid. They become hard if they have the chance to wipe your raid.. . . for you. You really need to preface all of those statements with “for me,” because they really are just your opinion for how YOU enjoy playing games. The same is not true for every player. If you feel this way, then you probably shouldn’t play easy mode raids. You’re welcome to, of course, but I don’t think you’d enjoy them. But just because you wouldn’t enjoy them has zero bearing on whether other people would enjoy them.
The difficulty of a mechanic is completly objective if it posses no thread.
The content/feature patch cycle is 3 months, way too long for an pointless easy mode.
I obviously wasn’t talking about a three month cycle, I was talking about the more basic two-week cycle. Basically, if they don’t intend to do easy mode raids now, but plan to come out with the new raid wing in early June, then decided to add easy mode Spirit Vale, then it might push the new raid wing back to mid-june, but I doubt it would even be that bad.
Gaile said you should stop your baseless assumptions with developer time. And I can asure you, it would take a lot longer. First they need the tools to create the easy mode, you have to find the balance with damage, health and mechanics and you have to test it. If they would have added an easy mode to every raid wing it would have pushed the third wing atleast to the end of the year or beginning of next year.
And you steal developer time from new enviroments, encounters which could be used for new maps or open world encounter events, effectivly hurting the game in the long run. Higher skilled people will always have more content to play with.
No, I would steal ZERO developer time from those things, because easy mode would not require those employees. Developers are not fungible, an environment artist basically does one thing, environments. If they decide to add more armor, it doesn’t mean that they have to have less environments, not unless they make a MAJOR shift that would involve hiring and firing, and nobody is suggesting that. The shift from hard mode to easy mode would purely be an encounter developer issue, the guys that work the mob trait spreadsheets. They don’t do environments, they don’t do models, they don’t do animations, those are other guys, and they will still be hard at work on whatever they’re hard at work on.
So the boss scripts are done by different people in raids/open world? And the QA multiplies itself without cost?
They have the choice now but have to meet the requirements.
Again, no, they do not have a fair choice, they only have a Hobson’s choice, to either “do the content that you don’t enjoy” or “never get that thing you want.” There needs to be a third option “do something that you can enjoy AND get that thing you want.”
It is the same with every item. If you don’t like content you can’t get it. So either you add it to everything or people have to force themself to do it. More alternate ways change nothing. You only want a way that fits you and you don’t care about the rest.
‘hard core’ players tend to stick longer with games than your so called ‘casuals’.
Nope.
Yes. Core players are more associated with the companies and forgive mistakes more easily. Those MMO grass hoppers are mostly ‘casuals’ that play the content they like and leave afterwards complaining there is nothing to do. The real casuals don’t have enough playtime to ever reach that point of game over and don’t care about raids.
You are speaking for the people with high playtime and no will to improve.
This thread is not about easy mode anymore. This thread is about ohoni begging for legendary armor. All this “teaching” and “players getting familiar with mechanics” and “progression” is a waste of time for this people. They just want the armor.
If people want to learn hard mode, then they can do so, and easy mode would be a great tool for that. But what you need to understand is that easy mode can’t JUST be a tool for people on their way to hard mode, it must be able to stand on its own two feet as a valid gameplay mode of its own, because plenty of players will never want to advance to hard mode, and that is totally fine. Hard mode is not and should not be for everyone. It is not “the goal,” it is just another gameplay mode that some people enjoy and others do not. If people want to play hard mode, then they have it available, but if people don’t want to ever play hard mode, there is not something wrong with them that needs fixing.
There is no hard mode. And easy mode is useless if you want to learn raids if you can ignore the mechanics. If you can’t ignore them there is no point in an easy mode. WoW proofed it years ago. Most players can’t transition from LFR to organised raiding.
Talking about money, does Anet make more money when everybody can have cool looking Legendary armor after grinding through easy mode for 3 months ? After which they probably won’t buy a new outfit O.O.
Outfits are a complete waste of time regardless of what happens with raids. If your argument is that people getting Legendary armor would cut into their Outfit sales though, then wouldn’t that mean that raiders would be their worst customers, and should not be at all supported?
First of all one GW2’s main selling point is not being grindy, hence an easy repetive way to get the most prestigious armor in gw2 does not match with that view.
. . .
You just said two completely opposite things.
You basically said “GW2 is known for not being grindy, so it’s a good thing that raiders have to grind against the raid until they beat it.”
Do you even know what grind means? It is a repetitiv, mindless activity, where you don’t need to concentrate and could do it with one hand while watching TV. Your easy mode would fit that definition if you can one shot every boss without effort. Raids do not.
Expanding on that, how do you keep the game interesting and give players reasons to log in without making it feel grindy? By adding increasingly more challenging content with more complex mechanics. I know plenty players that quitted gw2 for the trivial content back in the day.
Yeah, not everyone feels that way. The players that feel that “increasingly more challenging content” is a good thing DID leave the game, and mostly didn’t come back. The customers that made GW2 successful over the past three years are the players who DON’T believe that, who DON’T want “increasingly more challenging content” to keep them entertained, they just want novel content, content that is of roughly the same difficulty as the existing stuff, only more of it and in more interesting combinations.
The raid encounters are novel, they offer a whole bunch of new mechanics to work against, but in their current form, if you screw up the mechanics then you wipe and reset, which is frustrating and anti-fun. An easy mode would allow players to tackle those mechanics without the frustration of wipe and reset. Novel content, not challenging content.
Again, if you do like challenging content, hard mode is there for you, but stop pretending that everyone wants that on any level.
And thats the thing. Most of them never left, they just found themselves activities they enjoyed and where they could be competetiv. Like speedruns.
Raid encounters with weak mechanics offer a fancy sandbag, nothing more.
Also are you a Riot fanboy? Anti-fun is one of the most kittened buzz-words in the gaming industry for years now.
Secondly, shifting from time gating to a more skill based system attracts players that log on for shorter amounts of time and play more engaged, rather than bot like grinders that play 8 hours a day. Guess which type of players have more money in their real wallet and less gold in game….
But the time gate itself will be time gated. With current raids you’re expected to spend many consecutive hours challenging the bosses until eventually you might get them on farm, that is the “bot-like grinder” activity you talk about. With easy mode, you might only spend an hour or so a day running raids, and then it would be locked out for that day or week so you’d do something else. It would take longer overall, but require a much smaller time commitment in the short term, so it would appeal to players who “have more important things to do.” Nobody is suggesting a mode where you could easy mode raid for eight hours a day.
Third of all, when creating new content like LW which is designed for everybody to experience, Anet always has to keep their skill lv and dumb down the content. However if your player base is more skilled and in general more incentivized to improve, they will clear it more easily.
This is not a problem that needs a solution. The playerbase does not want to improve and does not have to. General content should be balanced on the idea that they have not. More challenging optional content can be included, but is not the priority.
Again. You are not the player base. You know nothing about them, so don’t try to speak for them. You speak for yourself.
Stop saying having cleared the raids is not prestigious, I for example disagree and like I said many times you dont even know whether you can low man the last raid wing.
The fact remains that anything you can buy your way through has ZERO prestige.
Personally I think that not all rewards should be about spending hours upon hours doing boring repetitive tasks.
and yet you are in favor of the existing raids, which are exactly that.
For you. And your easy mode will be the same for other people.
I think that getting better and progressing your character is a core concept in MMO’s.
In other MMOs, not in GW2, which is why people love GW2.
Yeah thats why the mastery system is in place, because ArenaNet don’t want players to feel progress right? They even said that GW2 is missing meaningful progression.
(edited by Miellyn.6847)
Contingents and gating should never be a thing in GW2. At least not the GW2 that was initially advertised as come as you are and play as long as you want. If that vision is gone, then Anet should clearly state that so people can move on and maybe find an alternative, which are sadly quite thin at the moment.
Since the beginning of the Game Legendary weapons have been gated behind Open World PvE but that’s fine with you because it’s content you enjoy, that has been almost all of the people advocating for giving Legendary armor to easier content view point. You have to realize Legendary gating has been in the game since launch and only now is an issue because they gated 1 legendary item behind content you don’t enjoy.
Although it is true that I enjoy open world more than raids, it is false that I have legendary weapons because I enjoyed open world. I have one precursor drop since launch, and that was a spear on top of it all.
Out of 9 characters, 2 of mine have 100% map completion. And they have it since content drought dropped down on us. Before that, I never even attempted to reach world comletion because I find it boring to hunt a point of interest by swimming or crawling through this and that. But kind of a desperation drove me there.^^
Heavy Gating is wrong, not only in raids. It was wrong in fractals, is wrong in pvp, and it will be wrong in wvw. Exploration is mind numbingly boring, fractals got finally old for me, pvp was never my thing and wvw is all that is left for me when open world does not get new content.
Since the beginning of the Game Legendary weapons have been gated behind Open World PvE but that’s fine with you because it’s content you enjoy, that has been almost all of the people advocating for giving Legendary armor to easier content view point. You have to realize Legendary gating has been in the game since launch and only now is an issue because they gated 1 legendary item behind content you don’t enjoy.
I’ve been in favor of alternate methods of earning Legendary weapons for years now. It’s not my cause to advocate, but I certainly never stood in opposition to it either.
You said our opion is worthless, that is a direct attack on my persona which is ad hominem.
no, I said that your opinions don’t matter, which is not an attack on your person, it is a statement of fact. The only people with decision-making power here are ANet, I don’t need to convince you to agree with me, so it’s ok that you don’t.
Yes social interaction has a higher value in a multiplayer game than soloplayer grind. If you believe otherwise change the genre and stop destroying MMORPGs.
You just described GW2 in a nutshell. That’s why most of us are here.
That only applies to Open World PvE, it never applied to sPvP, WvW or Dungeons/Fractals and it doesn’t apply to raids.
Right, like I said, GW2 in a nutshell.
The rest were also new or just carried you through?
I don’t know, I soloed the last thirty seconds of it or so, so I don’t think I was being carried. If I was then I’m even more impressed with their capabilities from the defeated state.
The play how you want always only applied to Open World. How did you do dungeons without a pre-organised group? Or fractals? Alone? And don’t compare dungeons today to raids, compare them to the release state of dungeons. Many people know now what to do in dungeons and can carry someone without knowledge easily.
Ok, a lot packed into that. Yes, it mostly applied to Open World, but also Open World was “the thing to do,” and now that’s shifting more towards raid. Again,l if raids were completely optional, in the way I mean that, not in the way you mean that, then it wouldn’t be a problem, but since they aren’t, it is a problem.
As for “dungeons at launch,” that argument just does not apply. We’ve been over this. Dungeons at launch were “harder,” because players were underleveled, WAY undergeared (even compared to people trying to do raids in yellows), and had no idea how to pilot their own characters. NONE of that applies to raids. Furthermore, there aren’t likely to be any “revelations” on the current raids strategy, so the “compare them to launch dungeons” thing is just nonsense. It implies that in a year or so the current raid, without making any changes to it, will be trivial content, and I just don’t see that being the case at all. It may make it more likely that a new character will get incidentally carried by nine experts, but the individual skill required will never go down as significantly as with launch dungeons.
You should try WoW, LFR fits exactly your needs. WoW changed the direction long ago to fit people like you.
Stop bringing it to other games.
I’m boggled. “Go back to WoW” is my exact response for you. Most GW2 players came to GW2 to get AWAY from WoW raid culture.
The difficulty of a mechanic is completly objective if it posses no thread.
Difficulty is never objective. You were the one that was saying that raids were “easy” because some players were able to beat them in greens.
First they need the tools to create the easy mode, you have to find the balance with damage, health and mechanics and you have to test it. If they would have added an easy mode to every raid wing it would have pushed the third wing atleast to the end of the year or beginning of next year.
They already have the tools, the tools would be the same tools they’ve been using.
The balance is just to take things down a few notches. They probably have an idea of a starting point based on the hard mode’s testing. And if they screw up, it’s no big deal, they can fix it in post. Testing can be in the live game.
and on your last point, nonsense.
So the boss scripts are done by different people in raids/open world? And the QA multiplies itself without cost?
Probably, yeah.
It is the same with every item. If you don’t like content you can’t get it. So either you add it to everything or people have to force themself to do it.
Yes.
Yes. Core players are more associated with the companies and forgive mistakes more easily. Those MMO grass hoppers are mostly ‘casuals’ that play the content they like and leave afterwards complaining there is nothing to do.
And yet the people complaining here have been playing the game since launch. How long have you been playing?
I’m not talking about “casual playtime” here, I’m talking about skill-casual, the ones that might play several hours per day, but that have no interest in “challenging content.”
You are speaking for the people with high playtime and no will to improve.
Yes.
And easy mode is useless if you want to learn raids if you can ignore the mechanics.
We’ve been over this, you are wrong, I won’t repeat why you’re wrong, look it up yourself.
WoW proofed it years ago. Most players can’t transition from LFR to organised raiding.
Or they don’t want to because they don’t enjoy organized raiding in the first place, which is also fine.
Do you even know what grind means? It is a repetitiv, mindless activity, where you don’t need to concentrate and could do it with one hand while watching TV. Your easy mode would fit that definition if you can one shot every boss without effort. Raids do not.
Grind is about doing content that you are not enjoying repetitively. For you, that might mean doing easy mode content. For me that means doing hard mode content, wiping, and repeating that thing I just did minutes ago. You should be able to do hard mode if you enjoy that, I should be able to do easy mode if I enjoy that, neither of us should have to do the version that we don’t enjoy.
For you. And your easy mode will be the same for other people.
EXACTLY. To each their own. Nobody is asking you to ever play easy mode, and nothing will even encourage you to do so if you aren’t interested.
Yeah thats why the mastery system is in place, because ArenaNet don’t want players to feel progress right? They even said that GW2 is missing meaningful progression.
And the HoT experiment was largely a failure. They even backtracked on almost all the “progression” mechanisms, making elite specs take less HP to unlock, making HPs easier to clear, removing mastery requirements for many HPs, greatly increasing XP so that masteries clear faster, etc. The clear reaction from the community was “we don’t want progression systems to grind for, just hand us new toys.”
Right, like I said, GW2 in a nutshell.
So GW2 is only open world? Why do you care about raids then?
The rest were also new or just carried you through?
I don’t know, I soloed the last thirty seconds of it or so, so I don’t think I was being carried. If I was then I’m even more impressed with their capabilities from the defeated state.
The most difficult part of lupicus is the second phase without oneshot, not the third.
The play how you want always only applied to Open World. How did you do dungeons without a pre-organised group? Or fractals? Alone? And don’t compare dungeons today to raids, compare them to the release state of dungeons. Many people know now what to do in dungeons and can carry someone without knowledge easily.
Ok, a lot packed into that. Yes, it mostly applied to Open World, but also Open World was “the thing to do,” and now that’s shifting more towards raid. Again,l if raids were completely optional, in the way I mean that, not in the way you mean that, then it wouldn’t be a problem, but since they aren’t, it is a problem.
Raids are completly optional. You can get the same stats with ascended. You are forcing yourself into raids, blame it on ArenaNet because you can’t get your shinies and want to destroy the raids and the fun of people who enjoy raids.
As for “dungeons at launch,” that argument just does not apply. We’ve been over this. Dungeons at launch were “harder,” because players were underleveled, WAY undergeared (even compared to people trying to do raids in yellows), and had no idea how to pilot their own characters. NONE of that applies to raids. Furthermore, there aren’t likely to be any “revelations” on the current raids strategy, so the “compare them to launch dungeons” thing is just nonsense. It implies that in a year or so the current raid, without making any changes to it, will be trivial content, and I just don’t see that being the case at all. It may make it more likely that a new character will get incidentally carried by nine experts, but the individual skill required will never go down as significantly as with launch dungeons.
You are trying to cater to the people who still can’t pilot their character 3 years after lunch with your easy mode. But thats ok to you, because nobody wants to get better right?
Yes if people show up with proper equipment and builds it gets significantly easier. Also you don’t know what future specialisations will bring.
There is also a video from [SALT], they killed VG with 10 nomad tempests. So play how you want still exists even in raids. Just the base skill level required is higher.
You should try WoW, LFR fits exactly your needs. WoW changed the direction long ago to fit people like you.
Stop bringing it to other games.I’m boggled. “Go back to WoW” is my exact response for you. Most GW2 players came to GW2 to get AWAY from WoW raid culture.
You should update your knowledge. WoW introduced the ‘content for everyone’ 6 years ago. Even before GW2 release.
The difficulty of a mechanic is completly objective if it posses no thread.
Difficulty is never objective. You were the one that was saying that raids were “easy” because some players were able to beat them in greens.
I never said it is easy. I said it proofes that raid tuning is fine for the middle-ground.
Bad players with no interest to improve are not part of the middle ground. And they are not the player base.
If you would have to solve a complex math task every 30 seconds to prevent 300 raid damage it would be a complex mechanic with easy execution, because you can just ignore it. Mechanics with no threat are objectivly easy as you don’t have to handle them.
First they need the tools to create the easy mode, you have to find the balance with damage, health and mechanics and you have to test it. If they would have added an easy mode to every raid wing it would have pushed the third wing atleast to the end of the year or beginning of next year.
They already have the tools, the tools would be the same tools they’ve been using.
The balance is just to take things down a few notches. They probably have an idea of a starting point based on the hard mode’s testing. And if they screw up, it’s no big deal, they can fix it in post. Testing can be in the live game.
and on your last point, nonsense.
No balance it not that easy.
Yeah and the kittenstorm that would follow livetesting would drive all your ‘casuals’ away, making the easy mode complety pointless. A good thing after all I think.
So the boss scripts are done by different people in raids/open world? And the QA multiplies itself without cost?
Probably, yeah.
You know nothing about industry and software development. But it’s fine that you would work for free. Most people don’t do this.
It is the same with every item. If you don’t like content you can’t get it. So either you add it to everything or people have to force themself to do it.
Yes.
So do raids to get the armor or don’t get it. You proof it again, you only speak for yourself and you want the legendary armor no matter what. You also only play open world PvE with some occasional dungeons or you wouldn’t have come back with your easy mode after the proposal to add legendary armor to WvW.
Yes. Core players are more associated with the companies and forgive mistakes more easily. Those MMO grass hoppers are mostly ‘casuals’ that play the content they like and leave afterwards complaining there is nothing to do.
And yet the people complaining here have been playing the game since launch. How long have you been playing?
I’m not talking about “casual playtime” here, I’m talking about skill-casual, the ones that might play several hours per day, but that have no interest in “challenging content.”
I’m playing since launch..
There are no ‘skill casuals’. Casual is a fixed term for people with low play time and irregular shedule. You are talking about bad players with no interest to improve and high playtime. Sorry, no sympathy for them. They also won’t use the stat swapping as they just don’t care about game mechanics.
Those players are the MMO grass hoppers. Real casuals don’t hit that point of game over.
You are speaking for the people with high playtime and no will to improve.
Yes.
We don’t need to cater to the lowest denominator.
And easy mode is useless if you want to learn raids if you can ignore the mechanics.
We’ve been over this, you are wrong, I won’t repeat why you’re wrong, look it up yourself.
WoW proofed it years ago. Most players can’t transition from LFR to organised raiding.
Or they don’t want to because they don’t enjoy organized raiding in the first place, which is also fine.
No because the jump in difficulty is too high.
Do you even know what grind means? It is a repetitiv, mindless activity, where you don’t need to concentrate and could do it with one hand while watching TV. Your easy mode would fit that definition if you can one shot every boss without effort. Raids do not.
Grind is about doing content that you are not enjoying repetitively. For you, that might mean doing easy mode content. For me that means doing hard mode content, wiping, and repeating that thing I just did minutes ago. You should be able to do hard mode if you enjoy that, I should be able to do easy mode if I enjoy that, neither of us should have to do the version that we don’t enjoy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_%28video_gaming%29
No it is not about things you don’t enjoy. Stop compromising words to fit your argumentation and win sympathy from readers. Raids can become grind after they get farm status for individual groups, but not before.
For you. And your easy mode will be the same for other people.
EXACTLY. To each their own. Nobody is asking you to ever play easy mode, and nothing will even encourage you to do so if you aren’t interested.
Yeah thats why the mastery system is in place, because ArenaNet don’t want players to feel progress right? They even said that GW2 is missing meaningful progression.
And the HoT experiment was largely a failure. They even backtracked on almost all the “progression” mechanisms, making elite specs take less HP to unlock, making HPs easier to clear, removing mastery requirements for many HPs, greatly increasing XP so that masteries clear faster, etc. The clear reaction from the community was “we don’t want progression systems to grind for, just hand us new toys.”
People were just spoiled with instant satisfaction. Same happend to WoW from WotLK to Cataclysm. MMORPGs were never about instant satisfaction and everything for everyone until WoW introduced it and now people feel entitled to it.
(edited by Miellyn.6847)
The most difficult part of lupicus is the second phase without oneshot, not the third.
Ok. I survived that bit, went on to kill the boss so that we didn’t wipe. I think I helped.
Again, if raids were completely optional, in the way I mean that, not in the way you mean that, then it wouldn’t be a problem, but since they aren’t, it is a problem.
Raids are completly optional.
Again, if raids were completely optional, in the way I mean that, not in the way you mean that, then it wouldn’t be a problem, but since they aren’t, it is a problem.
You should update your knowledge. WoW introduced the ‘content for everyone’ 6 years ago. Even before GW2 release.
And yet when GW2 came out, “to escape the toxic raider mentality” is still a major reason people gave for joining up.
I never said it is easy. I said it proofes that raid tuning is fine for the middle-ground.
But expert players are NEVER the middle-ground. Expert players could beat it naked with their eyes closed and it wouldn’t mean a thing if actual middle-ground groups could not clear it. You prove to me that most random, first time pugs are beating VG within their first hour or so of trying, and I’ll agree that easy mode is probably not necessary. Short of that, you’re showing me nothing relevant to my concerns.
Bad players with no interest to improve are not part of the middle ground. And they are not the player base.
Lol. Welcome to Guild Wars 2.
Yeah and the kittenstorm that would follow livetesting would drive all your ‘casuals’ away, making the easy mode complety pointless. A good thing after all I think.
I don’t see why, so long as if it’s overtuned they are willing to nerf it, and if it’s undertuned they tighten it up a bit. Players are pretty cool with being part of a development process, so long as the devs are up front that the version we’re getting is not necessarily how it will always be.
There are no ‘skill casuals’. Casual is a fixed term for people with low play time and irregular shedule.
No. Actually “casual/harcore” is a four-way axis. There are time casuals, who only spend a few hours a week playing, and there are time hardcores, who play many hours per day. There are also skill hardcores, who like really tough challenging content, and there are skill casuals, who prefer lower challenge content. You can have h/h players that like serious challenge and play a lot, or c/h players that like really tough content but also want to only have to play a few hours a week to experience it, there are c/c players that only want to do a easy content for a few hours a week, but also h/c players who only want to do easy content but would play several hours a day.
Easy mode raids are for those who are fairly casual on skill, regardless of how they are on time.
You are talking about bad players with no interest to improve and high playtime. Sorry, no sympathy for them. They also won’t use the stat swapping as they just don’t care about game mechanics.
Those players are the MMO grass hoppers. Real casuals don’t hit that point of game over.
Welcome to GW2. You just insulted the vast majority of the players here. This is what I mean by “you don’t matter,” if ANet were designing based on your principles the game would have shut down years ago. They know better.
No it is not about things you don’t enjoy. Stop compromising words to fit your argumentation and win sympathy from readers. Raids can become grind after they get farm status for individual groups, but not before.
It’s all about whether you’re enjoying it or not. It can happen at any time.
People where just spoiled with instant satisfaction. Same happend to WoW from WotLK to Cataclysm. MMORPGs were never about instant satisfaction and everything to everyone until WoW introduced it and now people feel entitled to it.
MMOs are an ever-evolving genre. Several recent MMOs have tried to “revive the glory” of old school MMOs to rousing commercial failure. The market has moved on, and while there are some holdouts that enjoy the old school progression, the core of the modern MMO market is a lot more easy-going, they just want to be able to do the things they want to do with minimal hassle. GW2 launched with a philosophy of minimizing hassle, they will not benefit from backtracking on this.
If you make legendary armor quickly and easily accessible, it no longer becomes a bonus, it becomes mandatory. You’ll see every pug and their mum going “link legendary armor or no invite for you” to not just raids, but also to deep fractals and maybe even dungeons. Making Legendary Armor practically obtainable by everyone is opening a Pandora’s Box.
Having a low skill barrier with a long grind to compensate doesn’t change this. You just end up in the same position, just further down the line.
I can with 100% certainty say, that it wouldn’t be the case. Why? Because i have yet to see anyone asking for legendary weapons.
This means that anyone who wants to be able to PUG is kinda forced into an avenue of doing the easy mode raid, week after week, and that’s obviously not good. When the next series of raid wings launches I do not want “link legendary armor” to be the broad cry of raiding guilds and raiding pugs and if legendary armor is easily accessible I can definitely see that happening.
It’s far more likely to happen in the current situation. Insights could be farmed on VG alone, but having a legendary armor will mean you have finished all of the bosses in the first raid.
It’s far more likely to happen in the current situation. Insights could be farmed on VG alone, but having a legendary armor will mean you have finished all of the bosses in the first raid.
And 90% of next raid LFG requirements will be “full legendary armor or kick”. Wooo, I’m already see that friendly raiding community.
It’s far more likely to happen in the current situation. Insights could be farmed on VG alone, but having a legendary armor will mean you have finished all of the bosses in the first raid.
And 90% of next raid LFG requirements will be “full legendary armor or kick”. Wooo, I’m already see that friendly raiding community.
This thread is actually pretty funny. The less the people raid, the more they are talking about the toxic raiding community. Maybe you should let actual raider speak about their community…
I pugged a lot of dungeons, and a lot of raids (when I’m not with my guild), and it’s weird because the raiding community is much nicer…
Again, if raids were completely optional, in the way I mean that, not in the way you mean that, then it wouldn’t be a problem, but since they aren’t, it is a problem.
They are completly optional. Your problem is that there are rewards you like inside the raid wings, but you don’t want to spend the effort of getting them.
And yet when GW2 came out, “to escape the toxic raider mentality” is still a major reason people gave for joining up.
Most raiders welcome new players if they are willing to learn. The toxic raider mentality is a mythos, made up by people who wanted to get carried and got declined by raiders.
But expert players are NEVER the middle-ground. Expert players could beat it naked with their eyes closed and it wouldn’t mean a thing if actual middle-ground groups could not clear it. You prove to me that most random, first time pugs are beating VG within their first hour or so of trying, and I’ll agree that easy mode is probably not necessary. Short of that, you’re showing me nothing relevant to my concerns.
ArenaNet said, raids are tuned with ascended in mind. Expert players proof you can beat them with ~45-50% less damage. So the raid is perfectly tuned for the middle-ground with ascended equipment.
Lol. Welcome to Guild Wars 2.
You don’t know anything about the playerbase. Stop making things up unless you have data to back you up.
I don’t see why, so long as if it’s overtuned they are willing to nerf it, and if it’s undertuned they tighten it up a bit. Players are pretty cool with being part of a development process, so long as the devs are up front that the version we’re getting is not necessarily how it will always be.
First you have to define a player type to which you tune the easy mode. That alone takes a long time.
Yeah players like being involved making decisions. They are not cool with livetesting and experiencing bugs, which will happen if you change mechanics.
No. Actually “casual/harcore” is a four-way axis. There are time casuals, who only spend a few hours a week playing, and there are time hardcores, who play many hours per day. There are also skill hardcores, who like really tough challenging content, and there are skill casuals, who prefer lower challenge content. You can have h/h players that like serious challenge and play a lot, or c/h players that like really tough content but also want to only have to play a few hours a week to experience it, there are c/c players that only want to do a easy content for a few hours a week, but also h/c players who only want to do easy content but would play several hours a day.
Easy mode raids are for those who are fairly casual on skill, regardless of how they are on time.
That ‘four-way axis’ appeared as bad players tried to fit the game to their needs instead of trying to get better. Casual = low time, irregular shedule.
The combination of casual and skill doesn’t even makes sense with the normal use of casual…
Welcome to GW2. You just insulted the vast majority of the players here. This is what I mean by “you don’t matter,” if ANet were designing based on your principles the game would have shut down years ago. They know better.
You don’t know anything about the playerbase. And most of those players don’t have any interest in raids. The problem are players like you who want rewards in content not targeted at them and come to the forum and try to convice the developer to fit the game to their needs.
It’s all about whether you’re enjoying it or not. It can happen at any time.
No it’s not. It is a fixed definition. There are also players that like to grind and say that they like grind. Exactly this word, but it can’t be grind because they like it hmm?
And MMOs need medicore grind and goals that take a long to achieve to survive. A game in that genre without grind won’t survive it’s first year.
MMOs are an ever-evolving genre. Several recent MMOs have tried to “revive the glory” of old school MMOs to rousing commercial failure. The market has moved on, and while there are some holdouts that enjoy the old school progression, the core of the modern MMO market is a lot more easy-going, they just want to be able to do the things they want to do with minimal hassle. GW2 launched with a philosophy of minimizing hassle, they will not benefit from backtracking on this.
There was Wild Star and they failed with bad execution and not enough content. Not because they tried to cater to the hardcore population.
Raids are not part of the core of GW2, it’s a tiny part of the whole game. The core is still the same.
This thread is actually pretty funny. The less the people raid, the more they are talking about the toxic raiding community. Maybe you should let actual raider speak about their community…
I pugged a lot of dungeons, and a lot of raids (when I’m not with my guild), and it’s weird because the raiding community is much nicer…
Raiding communities are always toxic if you are not in raiding guild or at least in static. This is pretty much a rule, for almost any MMO, because pug raids are usually made by people who barely fit for a leading role. Competent raid leader is rare beast, and they are never staying on pug raid level for long.
(edited by Rednik.3809)
This thread is actually pretty funny. The less the people raid, the more they are talking about the toxic raiding community. Maybe you should let actual raider speak about their community…
I pugged a lot of dungeons, and a lot of raids (when I’m not with my guild), and it’s weird because the raiding community is much nicer…Raiding communities are always toxic if you are not in raiding guild or at least in static. This is pretty much a rule, for almost any MMO, because pug raids are usually made by people who barely fit for a leading role. Competent raid leader is rare beast, and they are never staying on pug raid level for long.
And I suppose you pugged à lot in gw2 to back up your claim ? I mean, some week, I pug each night (because i’m borred, sometimes), and I’ve yet to witness the toxic behaviour you’re talking about. But maybe we put diffent meanings in “toxic”.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.