Guild Wars 2

So, you’ve put 3k+ hours into this game. Instead of sitting on these forums wasting your time with ideas that will never happen for reasons you do not comprehend, why don’t you… oh I don’t know… find a raiding guild?

I could, except what would that get me? I’d be in a raiding guild, and then I would have to play the current raids, and I’ve already explained, ad nauseum, why I do not and will not enjoy the current format of raids. It’s cool that you do, but stop projecting your preferences onto others. Just because you enjoy something does not mean that everyone could enjoy that same thing.

I’ve had HoT for almost a month now. I found a raiding guild at the end of the first week. The following week we cleared the first wing. Now salvation is out and my raid team is progressing to the last phase of Matthais. It’s really not that difficult. Go find a raid team of similar skill. I’ve only put about 800 hours into this time dump of a game.

And that’s you, and I am what’s called an “entirely different human person,” with my own thoughts and personal preferences. The things you enjoy doing are not the things that I enjoy doing, and vice versa. It’s not that I am “doing it wrong” for me, just because I’m “doing it wrong” for you. I’m doing it the way that I would enjoy, which is different than the way that you would enjoy, and I’m asking ANet to be more supportive of that difference in play styles. There is nothing I could EVER do to change my playstyle that would make me enjoy raiding as they are currently structured. But if they offered an alternative version like I discussed in the OP, that I would enjoy, simple as that.

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun. I’d rather they keep the 4 people working on raid on the actual raid than anything else.

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun. I’d rather they keep the 4 people working on raid on the actual raid than anything else.

Sure, and nobody’s talking about doing anything to change the current raids or the current raid team’s resources in any significant amount. My assertion is that these changes would only take a few man-hours to complete per raid, and would be negligible no matter who works on that. If that turns out to be incorrect, if it would take a day or more of solid work to implement, then I would expect people outside the existing raid team to be assigned to that project.

Absurdo.8309:

Dungeons were hard when they first came out. People didn’t know what to do. But they learned, and dungeons became easy.

Or perhaps the main difference was that originally people were doing those dungeons at correct levels (not as downscaled 80’s) in greens. And that due to player complains dungeon difficulty got nerfed several times.
Oh no, but that surely can’t have had any impact.

Absurdo.8309:

The same thing will happen to raids.

Yes, eventually it will. And with “the same” i mean nerfs.

Ayrilana.1396:

I wasn’t actually being serious when I said it. Someone was using that argument against raids so I just responded back by applying to everything. So yes, it’s ridiculous.

Agreed. You’d do better however to see where the argument came from first. Let me quote it to you

Miellyn.6847:

And again it is only about loot. Just say it for once, you just want the shinies other gets with less effort.

If you only want to experience the content you don’t need the loot.
If you need the loot as an incentive to do that content you don’t want to experience it.

Gene Archer was just pointing out that this argument was ridiculous. Glad you agree.

fishball.7204:

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun.

And why exactly would creating easy mode version kill off actual raids? It’s not like anyone is asking to nerf those.
Not yet anyway.

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

I wasn’t actually being serious when I said it. Someone was using that argument against raids so I just responded back by applying to everything. So yes, it’s ridiculous.

Agreed. You’d do better however to see where the argument came from first. Let me quote it to you

Miellyn.6847:

And again it is only about loot. Just say it for once, you just want the shinies other gets with less effort.

If you only want to experience the content you don’t need the loot.
If you need the loot as an incentive to do that content you don’t want to experience it.

Gene Archer was just pointing out that this argument was ridiculous. Glad you agree.

/shrug

Difficult to tell sarcasm just as it was for another user with my post. With how they quoted it, it seemed serious until they explained in another post.

I’m not going to track the entire thread’s arguments and especially when a certain poster will not include the names of who they are quoting.

Easy mode u g I think to be joking me, first raids are for people who wabt a challenge making a easy mode come on now totally not for it. Atm raids are fun altering getting 30 Insights from raid wing 1 before wing 2 came . Atm sv 8s far easier them what it used to, only becuz experience in doing it alot has made it that way. Sp atm is harder then what sv was when it came out, I’m not complaining becuz it challenges me n I know with experience it will become easier.
If anytung I’d like hard mode to be added to raids n dungeons. Just to remind challenge people. Raids are for those who want a challenge end of story. Adding a easy mode in any way would make tons of people stop playing

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun. I’d rather they keep the 4 people working on raid on the actual raid than anything else.

Sure, and nobody’s talking about doing anything to change the current raids or the current raid team’s resources in any significant amount. My assertion is that these changes would only take a few man-hours to complete per raid, and would be negligible no matter who works on that. If that turns out to be incorrect, if it would take a day or more of solid work to implement, then I would expect people outside the existing raid team to be assigned to that project.

This is false, based on what Gaile has said on the subject.

The post

I think she was replying to you. To be honest, it makes your replies not seem to be in good faith.

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Raids are opt in content. I agree with the comments above — there’s plenty to do if you’re looking for easier gameplay.

Swagger.1459:

Also, raids were very obviously rushed out the door so I guarantee the devs would have done things much differently given more time. Unfortunately, though, they are playing catchup now and we will just have to see how this content takes shape.

I would disagree with this. To the contrary, the bosses seem very polished. What do you find rushed?

A raid consists of more than just bosses, but ok, bosses that are pieced into the game are polished.

We only had 1 wing at launch, not an entire raid.

Promises of legendary armors without even a preview. Still no preview either.

Lfg channel should have been created at launch, but still nonexistent.

Minor thing, but not even a full compliment of white mantle weapons.

So let’s put the above into perspective…

Imagine if the devs only had Verdant Brink available to play at HoT launch. Then 5 months later they release Auric Basin. Then a few months after that Tangled Depths is released… Then finally Dragon’s Stand. Now take each zone release tied to legendary weapon progress steps without even a preview of said legendary weapons.

WvW received a single map unnecessarily, not a full wvw update because the rest is not ready…

Certain ascended stats to complete full sets are still not available.

The devs piece “things” together more than any mmo I have experienced, and raids are not handled any different. They devs play catchup a lot here and should work on dropping in fully created and feature/qol rich content instead.

Most/all of your complaints aren’t with the actual encounter. I would agree that things like the LFG tool would be a quality of life improvement.

But you seem to take issue with staggered release content. I don’t think your suggestions are aimed at the raid team. Seems to be more of a skin and armor thing. I’d rather have three polished bosses now, than have to wait for all the wings to be done.

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Raids are opt in content. I agree with the comments above — there’s plenty to do if you’re looking for easier gameplay.

Swagger.1459:

Also, raids were very obviously rushed out the door so I guarantee the devs would have done things much differently given more time. Unfortunately, though, they are playing catchup now and we will just have to see how this content takes shape.

I would disagree with this. To the contrary, the bosses seem very polished. What do you find rushed?

A raid consists of more than just bosses, but ok, bosses that are pieced into the game are polished.

We only had 1 wing at launch, not an entire raid.

Promises of legendary armors without even a preview. Still no preview either.

Lfg channel should have been created at launch, but still nonexistent.

Minor thing, but not even a full compliment of white mantle weapons.

So let’s put the above into perspective…

Imagine if the devs only had Verdant Brink available to play at HoT launch. Then 5 months later they release Auric Basin. Then a few months after that Tangled Depths is released… Then finally Dragon’s Stand. Now take each zone release tied to legendary weapon progress steps without even a preview of said legendary weapons.

WvW received a single map unnecessarily, not a full wvw update because the rest is not ready…

Certain ascended stats to complete full sets are still not available.

The devs piece “things” together more than any mmo I have experienced, and raids are not handled any different. They devs play catchup a lot here and should work on dropping in fully created and feature/qol rich content instead.

Most/all of your complaints aren’t with the actual encounter. I would agree that things like the LFG tool would be a quality of life improvement.

But you seem to take issue with staggered release content. I don’t think your suggestions are aimed at the raid team. Seems to be more of a skin and armor thing. I’d rather have three polished bosses now, than have to wait for all the wings to be done.

Raids were rushed out the door, and staggered release means “we don’t have it ready yet so you get things in stages”.

Swagger.1459:

Raids were rushed out the door, and staggered release means “we don’t have it ready yet so you get things in stages”.

Not necessarily. Blizzard has and continues to stagger raid releases, and has done so since Vanilla WoW. Though in this case, I am fairly certain it’s safe to say that this raid’s wings are delivered as they’re produced.

Absurdo.8309:

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun. I’d rather they keep the 4 people working on raid on the actual raid than anything else.

Sure, and nobody’s talking about doing anything to change the current raids or the current raid team’s resources in any significant amount. My assertion is that these changes would only take a few man-hours to complete per raid, and would be negligible no matter who works on that. If that turns out to be incorrect, if it would take a day or more of solid work to implement, then I would expect people outside the existing raid team to be assigned to that project.

This is false, based on what Gaile has said on the subject.

The post

I think she was replying to you. To be honest, it makes your replies not seem to be in good faith.

Nah, Gaile admitted that it was a general warning that wasn’t really about that specific case (notice, that in the same post she admits she really doesn’t know yet how it would be for the discussed case). And even then, the discussion she was answering to was about a difficulty setting for the whole game (something like gw1 easy/hard mode), which is indeed harder and more complex problem than what was proposed here.

Most of what Ohoni is asking for should indeed be easy to implement. I do see a few things that might require more work, though (gorse updrafts mechanic that serves as a sort of secondary encounter timer, for example).

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun. I’d rather they keep the 4 people working on raid on the actual raid than anything else.

Sure, and nobody’s talking about doing anything to change the current raids or the current raid team’s resources in any significant amount. My assertion is that these changes would only take a few man-hours to complete per raid, and would be negligible no matter who works on that. If that turns out to be incorrect, if it would take a day or more of solid work to implement, then I would expect people outside the existing raid team to be assigned to that project.

This is false, based on what Gaile has said on the subject.

The post

I think she was replying to you. To be honest, it makes your replies not seem to be in good faith.

Nah, Gaile admitted that it was a general warning that wasn’t really about that specific case (notice, that in the same post she admits she really doesn’t know yet how it would be for the discussed case). And even then, the discussion she was answering to was about a difficulty setting for the whole game (something like gw1 easy/hard mode), which is indeed harder and more complex problem than what was proposed here.

Most of what Ohoni is asking for should indeed be easy to implement. I do see a few things that might require more work, though (gorse updrafts mechanic that serves as a sort of secondary encounter timer, for example).

Again, I disagree. The context of the post was about raids. Even if it wasn’t, Gaile warned against estimating developer time for certain features. Which is what you are doing.

Here is the quote:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Ohoni.6057:

Here’s one reason: The developers have limited time and resources.

Yeah, we’ve covered this one. The time and resources it would take to implement something like this would be negligible, not remotely enough to counterbalance the benefits it would bring.

At this point, I need to interject. I am familiar with the process of changing to a multi-modality system of game presentation, having written about it long ago, when I was a journalist writing about another company and another game. For that game, too, players said “No big deal.” And they were absolutely wrong. They said, “Just tweak a few stats, lower a few spawns, and voila, you’ve got it!” No, that’s not how it worked. And that’s not how I think it would work for Guild Wars 2.

I will ask about this, and if we’re prepared to say something official, one of us will do so. But it’s counterproductive to have a discussion head down the path of misinformation and what seems to be a growing error in assumption. With all due respect, unless you’re a developer for GW2 you are not qualified to make a statement about the time needed, difficulty involved, or feasibility of such a feature.

You’re welcome to discuss the situation, and we appreciate that you want to do that. We welcome the conversation! But please participate by sharing what you’d like to see, and why, and don’t be misled by individual, external assumptions about the feasibility or practicality of such a request.

Astralporing.1957:

Most of what Ohoni is asking for should indeed be easy to implement. I do see a few things that might require more work, though (gorse updrafts mechanic that serves as a sort of secondary encounter timer, for example).

The should implies that you do not know for sure. You are guessing. It very well could be drastically more work than you realize. What if it would take the entire raid team 6 months to do what you ask? Would it still be worth it? No.

This is just like the LFG issue. Everyone blindly and igorantly stated how “easy” it would but to implement some “quick fix”. These are people that don’t have a clue as to what they are talking about. The developers come out and tell us, no, this is not easy. We will have to change how LFG works at its core to accomplish what you want and redirect a lot more resources than everyone assumed.

If it was a quick easy fix I imagine they would have done it already. Of course they want their content accessible to everyone. Though you also have to consider that merely turning down all the numbers will have an effect of how the encounters feel as well. It could break them, it could make them feel poorly done and rushed. This would show a bad image. And things like that are just as important.

So I would imagine that being able to do what people ask, while maintaining a product they are willing to release is MUCH harder than everyone is assuming.

It would be nice to hear something from a dev though. “Hey, ya we are looking into what it would take” Or “This is WAY more work than everyone assumes and there is no way we can do it in the foreseeable future.”

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun. I’d rather they keep the 4 people working on raid on the actual raid than anything else.

Sure, and nobody’s talking about doing anything to change the current raids or the current raid team’s resources in any significant amount. My assertion is that these changes would only take a few man-hours to complete per raid, and would be negligible no matter who works on that. If that turns out to be incorrect, if it would take a day or more of solid work to implement, then I would expect people outside the existing raid team to be assigned to that project.

So what other part of the game that would have knowledgeable employees should suffer just so you can have your easy raids? The other teams will not be sitting around doing nothing. They have things to work on with deadlines. Which of those things should get a delay so you can have your easy raids sooner rather than later?

ANet can’t make people magically appear and they are not a large company. No where near as large as Blizzard.

Seera.5916:

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun. I’d rather they keep the 4 people working on raid on the actual raid than anything else.

Sure, and nobody’s talking about doing anything to change the current raids or the current raid team’s resources in any significant amount. My assertion is that these changes would only take a few man-hours to complete per raid, and would be negligible no matter who works on that. If that turns out to be incorrect, if it would take a day or more of solid work to implement, then I would expect people outside the existing raid team to be assigned to that project.

So what other part of the game that would have knowledgeable employees should suffer just so you can have your easy raids? The other teams will not be sitting around doing nothing. They have things to work on with deadlines. Which of those things should get a delay so you can have your easy raids sooner rather than later?

ANet can’t make people magically appear and they are not a large company. No where near as large as Blizzard.

Oh Oh pick me i have the answer to this!

We can just delay LW S3 because clearly, no one is looking forward to content that is aimed at a larger variety of players. While we are at it, lets delay SAB again, because it’s crowd is far far far too niche; Oh and while we are taking a shotgun to the development process lets delay WvW because clearly they are good at taking a backseat!

All in all, lets just fix the issue at hand the inadequate group finding tools. Then if something is still a miss, as in you still cannot find a group if you really want to complete the content or the content is slightly overtuned they can check into that.

My personal belief is that the raids encounters fine tunning is they are on par and offer a unique 10 man experience for most players that have them engaging with more players and that is ultimately really good for community building. Turning it into anything below what it is now destroys that identity and does to raids, what the revamp for fractals did to its community.

Anyone estimating time need to implement anything in a game where they have no idea of what’s required is just being disingenuous to make their argument appealing … and it fools no one, especially the people who would actually need to implement said thing.

Swagger.1459:

The devs do not want to create rifts intentionally in their community, but that’s exactly what is happening and should be resolved.

Actually you are trying to create a rift by tell us that people need to be seperated. Raids with 1 difficulty and an achievement extra is a good system – I bring up again Ulduar, one of WoW’s most beloved raids, which used this system.

You are trying to tell people they have nothing to aspire to and need the content dragged down to them, its not a good outlook or something I would ever support.

Coulter.2315:

Swagger.1459:

The devs do not want to create rifts intentionally in their community, but that’s exactly what is happening and should be resolved.

Actually you are trying to create a rift by tell us that people need to be seperated. Raids with 1 difficulty and an achievement extra is a good system – I bring up again Ulduar, one of WoW’s most beloved raids, which used this system.

You are trying to tell people they have nothing to aspire to and need the content dragged down to them, its not a good outlook or something I would ever support.

How is getting more people doing raids creating a rift?

How are having progression settings, that can also be scaled even harder than the current difficulty, not giving players something to aspire to?

BloodyNine.7504:

Astralporing.1957:

Most of what Ohoni is asking for should indeed be easy to implement. I do see a few things that might require more work, though (gorse updrafts mechanic that serves as a sort of secondary encounter timer, for example).

The should implies that you do not know for sure. You are guessing.

Yes, i am. I have some strong basis for that , but in the end i may be mistaken, and it may very well be much more work than i expect. Or maybe not, and it will turn out to be way easier than you try to claim. Notice also, that i did mention that some changes might not be so easy to accomplish. I do realize that it’s not just some numbers’ tweaking.

BloodyNine.7504:

It very well could be drastically more work than you realize. What if it would take the entire raid team 6 months to do what you ask?

Considering that it took part of the team 4 months to do Salvation Pass? Not bloody likely. Even if they had to do it from ground up – which they don’t need to, seeing as most of the assets are already finished.

BloodyNine.7504:

If it was a quick easy fix I imagine they would have done it already.

Nope, because what we’re talking is not a fix, but a policy decision mostly. Anet doesn’t make those easily, especially when doing that requires admitting they have messed up earlier.
They don’t seem to be ready for that yet, but lot of things on the horizon suggests, that this may change.

Swagger.1459:

not giving players something to aspire to?

If the current raids dont give them something to aspire too, what makes you think any form of raids will ?

This is false, based on what Gaile has said on the subject.

Gaile said she didn’t actually know what difficulty was involved and would ask people who knew, she hasn’t gotten back to us yet.

Most of what Ohoni is asking for should indeed be easy to implement. I do see a few things that might require more work, though (gorse updrafts mechanic that serves as a sort of secondary encounter timer, for example).

I don’t think it would be an issue if he had reduced HP. I mean, people can beat him now well below the timer if they have crazy DPS, so if he had reduced HP then even a so-so team that was half on the ball should be able to kill him within the current maximum time. If it does remain a problem, the simple fix would be to have the updrafts respawn after a few minutes, so you’d still need to rotate, but never run out completely.

What if it would take the entire raid team 6 months to do what you ask? Would it still be worth it? No.

Then they shouldn’t do it. But it won’t. And if they can’t do it, they’ll need a plan B beyond “just leave things as they are.”

This is just like the LFG issue.

No, this is a “nothing to do with LFG” issue. I mean, LFG can certainly use some changes, definitely, but nothing they could possibly do to LFG would impact the issues most people have with raids atm. It’s like saying that a car with exploding airbags is having issues, but they plan to change out the cupholders so everything will be alright.

So what other part of the game that would have knowledgeable employees should suffer just so you can have your easy raids?

That’s an impossible question to answer without knowing exactly what time it would take, exactly which employees could possibly work on it, and what elements those employees are currently working on, but the simple answer is “they are a company that makes MMOs, they have to have some people that can do this, and if not, they should hire some.”

There are certainly plenty of potential things in development that could stand a little delay for a good cause. If as I believe it would only take a few manhours, almost anyone could spare that. If it would take days, or weeks of work, I don’t know, there are still likely some projects that could absorb that delay. If it would take “months” of work, which would be pretty much impossible for something of the scope I suggest, then it probably wouldn’t be worth the effort, but then they’d need to do something completely different.

All in all, lets just fix the issue at hand the inadequate group finding tools.

Again, nice, but not relevant.

Anyone estimating time need to implement anything in a game where they have no idea of what’s required is just being disingenuous to make their argument appealing … and it fools no one, especially the people who would actually need to implement said thing.

Wow, if I had the ability to fool developers into believing something was easier to implement than it actually was, I wouldn’t be wasting that talent on a game message board, I’d be running some major company somewhere.

Nope, because what we’re talking is not a fix, but a policy decision mostly. Anet doesn’t make those easily, especially when doing that requires admitting they have messed up earlier.
They don’t seem to be ready for that yet, but lot of things on the horizon suggests, that this may change.

Exactly. I don’t think it’s not in because they can’t do it, but rather because they don’t want to, and they don’t want to do a lot of things that would improve the game.

Ohoni.6057:

So what other part of the game that would have knowledgeable employees should suffer just so you can have your easy raids?

That’s an impossible question to answer without knowing exactly what time it would take, exactly which employees could possibly work on it, and what elements those employees are currently working on, but the simple answer is “they are a company that makes MMOs, they have to have some people that can do this, and if not, they should hire some.”

There are certainly plenty of potential things in development that could stand a little delay for a good cause. If as I believe it would only take a few manhours, almost anyone could spare that. If it would take days, or weeks of work, I don’t know, there are still likely some projects that could absorb that delay. If it would take “months” of work, which would be pretty much impossible for something of the scope I suggest, then it probably wouldn’t be worth the effort, but then they’d need to do something completely different.

So which project should it be? What if that project is just as important to another player as Easy Raids is to you? Should they get delayed satisfaction even though their project was implemented first just so your project can get done first?

Until you’re able to answer that question, do not tell ANet to shift their teams around to work on your project.

TexZero.7910:

Swagger.1459:

not giving players something to aspire to?

If the current raids dont give them something to aspire too, what makes you think any form of raids will ?

The problem is the need to have some success. Going in and failing over and over and over again does not make people aspire. If they aren’t having success at some level they give up. Giving them a level success will keep them wanting to improve to the higher more difficult level of raid.

So which project should it be? What if that project is just as important to another player as Easy Raids is to you?

Again, too many unknowns. We don’t even know what projects are being worked on. If it’s something that would take more than a few hours, then the best likely place to cut would be one of those things we haven’t even heard of yet. Me not being able to specifically allocate their resources does not mean that the project would not deserve a reallocation of resources, I’m just not in a position to get overly specific about it.

Heibi.4251:

TexZero.7910:

Swagger.1459:

not giving players something to aspire to?

If the current raids dont give them something to aspire too, what makes you think any form of raids will ?

The problem is the need to have some success. Going in and failing over and over and over again does not make people aspire. If they aren’t having success at some level they give up. Giving them a level success will keep them wanting to improve to the higher more difficult level of raid.

Do these people not realize that failure, is a critical part of the learning process ?

Do they believe they will instantly be able to succeed at every aspect of the game or something ?

Heibi.4251:

The problem is the need to have some success. Going in and failing over and over and over again does not make people aspire. If they aren’t having success at some level they give up. Giving them a level success will keep them wanting to improve to the higher more difficult level of raid.

So basically they need to beat VG or Slothesor which according to everything I’ve read really isn’t that rough.

Do these people not realize that failure, is a critical part of the learning process ?

No it’s not. Succeeding is an even better part of the learning process. Where did you get your degree in education? I’ve learned far more from my successes than from my failures. “you learn from failure” is just a thing people say to make other people feel better about failing.

Since they keep moving threads about scaling raids out of the HoT forum where everyone wants them to be and into the raid forum where no one wants them to be, maybe we should start a centralized link thread so that everyone can find the topics? Here are a few:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Difficulty-settings
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Do-you-think-Raids-in-GW2-were-a-bad-idea
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Difficulty-settings
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Easy-Mode-Raiding
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-difficulty-and-player-interest-coverage/first
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-Suggestion-reduce-waiting-to-have-fun/first#post6046074

Heibi.4251:

The problem is the need to have some success. Going in and failing over and over and over again does not make people aspire. If they aren’t having success at some level they give up. Giving them a level success will keep them wanting to improve to the higher more difficult level of raid.

But there is a form of success. The bosses of the first wing (I can’t comment on wing2) are all using the same design approach of phases and each phase is like the previous one with a few tweaks.

The incremental success comes from defeating the earlier phases. At some point you master them and then the later phases become much much easier. That’s why the Raid design is perfect for a learning process, when learning any subject you don’t start with the complicated things but with the basics. As you master the basics you can move further up the chain and take on harder and more complicated topics.

That’s how the phases work too. If you cannot reliably and without problems beat phase 1 do not expect to ever beat phase 2, become better and better at phase 1 until phase 2 becomes easy, then you go to phase 3.

The incremental success comes from defeating the earlier phases. At some point you master them and then the later phases become much much easier. That’s why the Raid design is perfect for a learning process, when learning any subject you don’t start with the complicated things but with the basics. As you master the basics you can move further up the chain and take on harder and more complicated topics.

But the failure of it is that when you complete phase 1, but then fail phase 2, you need to clear phase 1 again before you can start on phase 2, and pointless repetition is very toxic to the educational process, because it promotes boredom and complacency, which causes mistakes, which causes failure, which causes frustration, which causes more mistakes, and so on.

It is far easier to learn when failure is not a factor, when you can smell the roses and pay attention to everything without the stress of potential failure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_stress_on_memory

The phase system is nice and all, but you should succeed at each phase. Then, each time you repeat this process, you get better and better at it, until eventually you have it down and can do it without making any mistakes and in much better time than the first attempts. The raids are well laid out, the problem with them is that they are tuned so that failure is far more likely than success, so you’re mostly likely to face many failures before ever succeeding, rather than being designed so that you succeed relatively quickly and can advance to the next task.

Ohoni.6057:

But the failure of it is that when you complete phase 1, but then fail phase 2, you need to clear phase 1 again before you can start on phase 2, and pointless repetition is very toxic to the educational process, because it promotes boredom and complacency, which causes mistakes, which causes failure, which causes frustration, which causes more mistakes, and so on.

I find it very hard to believe someone is doing Phase 1 perfectly, with nobody getting downed, good dps and a perfect time and yet fail spectacularly at Phase 2. Once you improve yourself and reach the point of Phase 1 being “pointless repetition”, as you call it, you should be clearing Phase 2 already… and once Phase 2 becomes “pointless repetition”, Phase 3 should be cleared.

Maybe the clears will be messy, with a few downed here and there, but that just means you need to improve your previous phases until you can defeat the next phase.

I find it very hard to believe someone is doing Phase 1 perfectly, with nobody getting downed,

No, but they are getting to phase 2, which psychologically means “I have done that part, now I am on to the next part, the first part is behind me,” and as they are thinging that, they are dead, because raiding.

They didn’t do phase 1 absolutely perfectly because it doesn’t require perfection to advance to the next phase, it only requires adequacy, even if that adequacy is then not sufficient to get them to the one after that.

But again, the better system is the one in whcih you clear all the phases, and then clear them better the next time, and better the next, and so on. If phase 1 does a good job teaching you then you should have phase 2 down already by the time you reach it, you shouldn’t need to do phase 1 a dozen times, then both phase 1 AND 2 dozens more times, then phase 1 AND 2 AND 3 dozens MORE times just to get past phase 3. 1, 2, 3, not 1111111121111112111121112111112111111121121112111211112112121212111211112112311112112112121121212311231112111212111212123123112311231231231123123111231231123-clear.

Note that I’m likely being generous to that hypothetical group.

No. it should be 1112121212123121231231212123123-clear, and that would be for a fairly dumb group. It’s not about eventually reaching the end, that should happen quickly, it’s about then repeating that weekly to earn your intended rewards.

That’s very pretentious. You can’t answer the question specifically because of too many unknowns, but earlier you blatantly say they have enough of things in development that can stand a little delay.

You can also just answer it hypothetically, because we’re all not in the right position to decide one against the other.
But we can say: “I prefer easy raids over living story 1”,
or “I prefer them delaying living world 3 and having easy raids earlier.”,
or “I can wait a bit until living story 3 is here and see if I’m still interested then.”
or “I want the story in the raid incorporated into living story 3 because I feel it’s necessary to have all the story available.”

It’s not impossible to speculate, because that’s what we’ve all been doing upto now anyway.

Ohoni.6057:

But again, the better system is the one in whcih you clear all the phases, and then clear them better the next time, and better the next, and so on.

I disagree, that’s not a better system, or better, it’s not needed. You can already do that with the phases, getting better and better in one phase, which makes the next one much easier. The better you become in Phase 2, the easier Phase 3 becomes. It’s a learning/teaching process.

But it’s even worse on bosses that require set-up, for example at Gorseval orbs start spawning at Phase 2, miss-management of Orbs on Phase 2 lead to a much harder Phase 3. In other words, your first objective is to pass Phase 2 yes, that’s perfectly doable and not impossibly hard, but then you need to pass it in a way that makes Phase 3 doable. That’s the real hard part.

They didn’t do phase 1 absolutely perfectly because it doesn’t require perfection to advance to the next phase, it only requires adequacy, even if that adequacy is then not sufficient to get them to the one after that.

They continue practicing Phase 1 until they get it perfect, so they have a better time in the next phase. Once you get Phase 1 perfect, beating Phase 2 should be very very close. Then once you perfect Phase 2, beating Phase 3 should be very close.

There is a reason I suggested a system on which “easier” Raids could have bosses with less Phases. So players who beat the phase of that system don’t feel like they accomplished nothing (if they fail the next phase) but instead move on to the next boss/part of the Raid. Then, once they master the Phase 1 of each boss of the Raid, they can move on to the next Phase (or difficulty).

For many Raiders that happens naturally but I guess beating content doesn’t hold value to some players, they are just in it for the end reward.

Just gonna leave this here:

“If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself… and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory.”

I have no qualms with easy-mode raids, but they should have close-to-nil, or nil rewards. And given that an Anet dev has already said that you shouldn’t be judging how ‘easy’ it is to make such a thing happen unless you are working for Anet, I find it entirely pointless to discuss this.

Based on what I’ve seen of your replies, I’m not surprised nobody’s really in favor of your ideas.

Just so everyone is aware, Ohoni just said repitition and failure are bad for the learning process..

Here is Ohoni teaching some maths;

“And that was integration by substitution, do 1 question and never try again because if you do more than 1 you’ll damage your understanding of the topic, you should also never attempt a question you don’t already know the answer to or you’ll end up damaging your understanding of the topic too.”

Madness.

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Don’t worry, with difficulty setting we can have ultra hard modes too!

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Don’t worry, with difficulty setting we can have ultra hard modes too!

Content can usually become harder by low manning it. And wing 2 offers achievements for beating the boss in a harder way.

Most raiders aren’t concerned about hard modes. For me personally, I’m concerned with a waste of resources, as there’s already easy and medium tier content (dungeons, fractals, world bosses, map metas)

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Don’t worry, with difficulty setting we can have ultra hard modes too!

It’s amazing that all these people who come in and berate and complain that we don’t need difficulty levels don’t seem to understand that it will not affect them in any way.

I’ll put this in their own words but reversing the argument – “If easier content is too easy for you go play the harder content.” And of course in their other words – “I don’t want game resources tied up creating ultra hard content for a small percentage of the game population.”

Look at what you’re saying and use logic. You’re acting like your toys will be taken away if an easier mode for less skilled players to learn and be successful(thus being able to play the harder content eventually) is created.

Heibi.4251:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Don’t worry, with difficulty setting we can have ultra hard modes too!

It’s amazing that all these people who come in and berate and complain that we don’t need difficulty levels don’t seem to understand that it will not affect them in any way.

I’ll put this in their own words but reversing the argument – “If easier content is too easy for you go play the harder content.” And of course in their other words – “I don’t want game resources tied up creating ultra hard content for a small percentage of the game population.”

Look at what you’re saying and use logic. You’re acting like your toys will be taken away if an easier mode for less skilled players to learn and be successful(thus being able to play the harder content eventually) is created.

I think you misunderstand the argument. I agree that easy mode raids would not affect the current iteration of raids. Rather, they would affect the pace that future raids are released.

I see easy mode raids as unnecessary. If you want easier content, you have it. Fractals, dungeons, open world.

There was no easy mode arah. Easy mode liadri. Because there was always alternatives for players who couldn’t handle that type of content. And there still is.

The raid team is small compared to the rest of the game. They have a lot of visibility now because they are actually releasing content. I actually think the raid discontent stems from the lack of new fractals, dungeons, or maps. But there are teams working on them. And they are much larger than the raid team.

Heibi.4251:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Don’t worry, with difficulty setting we can have ultra hard modes too!

It’s amazing that all these people who come in and berate and complain that we don’t need difficulty levels don’t seem to understand that it will not affect them in any way.

I’ll put this in their own words but reversing the argument – “If easier content is too easy for you go play the harder content.” And of course in their other words – “I don’t want game resources tied up creating ultra hard content for a small percentage of the game population.”

Look at what you’re saying and use logic. You’re acting like your toys will be taken away if an easier mode for less skilled players to learn and be successful(thus being able to play the harder content eventually) is created.

Easy mode is fine. IF:

1. Minimal rewards (it should be ‘training’ mode to get people used to the idea of raids, and in no way possible should it let people get raid-exclusive loot).

2. The developers think it is a useful thing to do. Which Rising Dusk has already said, is not something on the table simply because of the resources needed.

I will throw your statement back at you. Use logic. If it is not feasible, then there is no point in begging for it. If you want easy raids just to get legendary armor, like Ohoni has stated before, then your argument is moot and does not deserve a look-in.

P.S. Stats being locked behind raids is another thing entirely and needs to be revamped, but not at the cost of nerfing raids.

Sabetha.4910:

P.S. Stats being locked behind raids is another thing entirely and needs to be revamped, but not at the cost of nerfing raids.

During the AMA they’ve said that the stats problem will be addressed on Living Story Season 3, so there’s that. (Probably as reward for doing all the story instance achievement or something)

Ohoni.6057:

So which project should it be? What if that project is just as important to another player as Easy Raids is to you?

Again, too many unknowns. We don’t even know what projects are being worked on. If it’s something that would take more than a few hours, then the best likely place to cut would be one of those things we haven’t even heard of yet. Me not being able to specifically allocate their resources does not mean that the project would not deserve a reallocation of resources, I’m just not in a position to get overly specific about it.

So you can’t tell ANet what to do with the resources it has. Because you don’t have all of the necessary information. So stop saying how fast they can do it or how ANet should allocate their resources.

“Easy mode” might make some non-raiders happy but it would ruin raiding for a majority of the raiding community, whether you agree with it or not.

Now, who do you think ArenaNet wants their raid content to appeal to more: raiders or non-raiders?

“Easy mode” might make some non-raiders happy but it would ruin raiding for a majority of the raiding community, whether you agree with it or not.

Now, who do you think ArenaNet wants their raid content to appeal to more: raiders or non-raiders?

Ohoni.6057:

Do these people not realize that failure, is a critical part of the learning process ?

No it’s not. Succeeding is an even better part of the learning process. Where did you get your degree in education? I’ve learned far more from my successes than from my failures. “you learn from failure” is just a thing people say to make other people feel better about failing.

Wait are you actually trying to argue that failing isn’t part of the learning process ?

Here’s a video for you, the topic is PvP but all you need to do is remove the “PvP and replace it with Raiding”.

https://youtu.be/hINUhJ2ojA0

Listen to it and try to understand it, without going in with preconceived biases

Chaos.5072:

“Easy mode” might make some non-raiders happy but it would ruin raiding for a majority of the raiding community, whether you agree with it or not.

Now, who do you think ArenaNet wants their raid content to appeal to more: raiders or non-raiders?

Did you even read the op?

My 2 cents is having an easier version, with the sole purpose of doing it to experience the story and lore, and providing 0 rewards, would be fine and a good idea.