Guild Wars 2

This is more of a rant thread.

So I decided to teach people how to run CoE today because I had nothing better to do… Now I have no problem dying and I am generally a pretty level headed person. I get 4 people (an ele, ranger, and two thieves, I decided against my better judgement to choose a thief as well) who are brand new to the dungeon and it starts out good everyone stacking the appropriate places and listening to well laid out instructions. We choose P1 and I tell them to stand under alpha to avoid rock AoE we do that and it is sweet. We then get to the golem with the 5 turrets and it is good. Now we come up to the console and I explain the 1 – 4 method show there where to stand and tell them I will protect while they stand up there and someone counts down. The elementalist then takes it upon himself to start hacking the console as soon as we get back in the room. I ask him to wait but he is super pro. We run out and kill the golems again we set up and this time the ranger doesn’t hack so I try a work around where 3 hold agro outside while the other 2 hack/defend. The elementalist runs straight into the room runs around the console a few times and upon death he gets upset because he was holding the agro. I elaborated that hodling the agro in the room will only cause the golems to attack the hack/defend people. Upon respawn he does exactly that again. I eventually tell them to kill all the golems. Now the elementalist runs in and tries to hack it. Now we are at alpha I say stack to make this easier we get him down halfway before we all wipe. The elementalist then decides on respawn to just rush into the room and try to solo Alpha in his defense he lasts a good while before turning into a crystal and death. We all rush in again and the ranger and the ele decide to just run all around the map we wipe a few people decide to repair armor the ele rushes in again by his self this happens at least 5 more times before they finally stack and we beat it. Now is Bjarl I tell them to stay near the pillars but the ele and ranger stand in the middle fighting him getting upset that they are only doing 13 damage. They eventually figure out how it is done and we pass him and at this point I am just exhausted between a personal issue and the lack of listening I don’t even tell them about alpha I just stand in the stack spot pull him over and attack completely my fault but whatever we wipe. The first person in the room to fight alpha again is the ele. Oh does he fight valiantly just to get crystalized and die. This happened a few more times before I just got up and walked away. The best part of it is that in order to finish the dungeon out at least 3 hours after we started they decided to stack…

Now I understand why no one likes teaching dungeons…

You got a person who didn’t want to follow your instructions, and some other people that were probably growing increasingly impatient with how bad that dungeon run was going. I’m not surprised it was a bad experience.

If that one player (the ele) was disruptive to others actually willing to learn, might have been better to kick him as soon as it was clear that he would continually refuse to work with the group. Could have just told him to watch a video before coming back. Three out of four new players having a good experience would probably have been worth more than five players having a terrible experience.

“Now I understand why no one likes teaching dungeons…” Over exaggeration…

The hardest part about teaching is communication. You can vomit wisdom at someone all day, but if they don’t open their mouth, you’ll never know if anything sticks. Back at my old job, the hardest students to teach weren’t the ones who would dwell on one topic for two hours because they didn’t get it, but the ones who would give a blank stare and respond with a flat “Okaaaaaaay…” to every attempt at feedback. Those were the guys who’d flunk a test, and finally own up that they didn’t understand a thing after coming back. That is where the real failure is at.

#1: The point is start a dialogue. You have to ask them if they have any questions, and if things go wrong, you have to ask them why they deviated or what they were trying to do. If you know what is going on there, then it is much easier to remedy the situation instead of just chewing them out. You have to encourage them, otherwise they’ll just stare blankly, being too timid to say anything.

#2: You gotta be patient. Even with instruction the first run never goes well. The game is about practice, and every “teaching run” is with players who have zero practice against what they are fighting. They ain’t painting a Picasso at their first pass of the brush, no matter how much you talk about cubism.

#3: The language barrier is a pain in the rear that rears its ugly head once in awhile. Often times they aren’t stupid insomuch as you sound like total gibberish to them.

#4: You gotta say everything. As much as people whine about walls of text AKA anything longer than 50 characters, if you don’t tell them what to do, why, and what happens in failure, they’ll silently disagree with you on something, not say a word about it, then not cooperate in runs due to this disagreement. Communication in itself is a skill, and unfortunately no one teaches that skill, so you gotta ramble on at the pulpit before people get the word.

#5: Trolls exist. Sometimes people want to be stupid. These are the guys you should punish, but unfortunately it takes forever to weed them out. Often times, what we think is a troll is actually just really stupid; key difference is that trolls are malevolent, while idiots are merely unfortunate.

Also, paragraphs. Paragraphs really help on the forums. But yeah, to resolve to teach is to choose to deal with society akittens most incompetent.

Protip, don’t take 4 noobs at once.

nah the worst part about teaching is that gw2 players do not think that they need to be taught anything

as a great pugger once told me after I explained how we could down Malrona in 10 seconds:

“we don’t need to do
anything you just said
just range her, let’s go”

it was almost a beautiful pug haiku

been there, done that

On teaching runs, you should be aware of these LJ mates. They possess an almost adamant stance on not being told what to do. Which makes you wonder what they are doing in a teaching run. On certain dungeons, you might be able carry their kitten but on other dungeons when some form of coordination is needed, there is simply no way to progress. Kicking will be the only way.

You shd expect pugs of all kinds. I usually specify my groups in a way impatient and delusional “pros” will likely avoid. And if you are really into giving back to the community in this manner, you shd not put these negative experiences to mind.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Also, paragraphs. Paragraphs really help on the forums. But yeah, to resolve to teach is to choose to deal with society akittens most incompetent.

Yeah this was really just a rant post and I didn’t expect too much feedback from the community, but I understand all what you are saying and like I stated I have immaculate patience.

Oh the other note that you posted I did explain why things were done this way and that, but I guess just wasn’t worth his time to care enough. Thanks for your feedback nonetheless.

Next time just boot the guy who is blatantly ignoring instructions.

Whenever I’ve pugged CoE they always seem to have hell geting the 1-4 right when it involves pressing a single button, I mean you’d think from all the 1 pressing in open world they’d be good at it.

I remember at the start of the game I did this dungeon a few times with my guild. At that time we had very little knowledge of the game, we played badly but we were good willed.
We did the hacking part many times, but we had no knowledge of the “stack hacking” method. We did it by killing everything while one guy hacked levels one by one.
It was a noobish method, it was chaotic, it was risky, but it was FUN.

You take away all the fun in the game by facing encounters in an unintended way.
I do not understand why people would want to faceroll Alpha, the hacking part, like this.
Do you really get more fun from having the “loots” fast and safe rather than by overcoming challenges?

I’d probaby act just like that elem in your group.

Zelyhn.8069:

I remember at the start of the game I did this dungeon a few times with my guild. At that time we had very little knowledge of the game, we played badly but we were good willed.
We did the hacking part many times, but we had no knowledge of the “stack hacking” method. We did it by killing everything while one guy hacked levels one by one.
It was a noobish method, it was chaotic, it was risky, but it was FUN.

You take away all the fun in the game by facing encounters in an unintended way.
I do not understand why people would want to faceroll Alpha, the hacking part, like this.
Do you really get more fun from having the “loots” fast and safe rather than by overcoming challenges?

I’d probaby act just like that elem in your group.

I asked if they preferred the speed method or if they wanted to do it regular and they said speed. I understand wanting to do a dungeon properly but if you say you want to do it one way then just ignore said instructions what is the rest of the group to do?

You have fun while making the run more difficult for the other 4. Having fun while running in to solo Alpha and die. In the end, you were having fun making that dungeon 3 hours long for the rest.
You should not have joined a teaching group in the first place. Make your own and troll the heck out of your own group, since if they kicked you the dungeon will be closed.

@Zelyhn
You don’t think it’s fun, i do.
The worst thing about players like you is… according to the OP it was supposed to be a learning run, (meaning he’d probably teach the usual mambo jambo every pug does, and lets face it, nobody does 1-1-1-1-1) and yet you feel entitled to ruin it for 3 other players trying to learn because “it ins’t fun”.

Ps.: I wish i had 10s for every post that stated “it ins’t fun” and “stacking/LoSing is wrong/non-intended” (with bonus 5s if it mentions healing, condition damage and crowd control builds), man i’d be rich.

Sure OP, I can understand that. If it was a learning run then of course they should listen to you

My general comment remains valid.

Besides, if players have not yet learnt to run balanced builds and how to react to the unexpected by level 80 then they still won’t anytime later.

In my very honest opinion you should simply not do teaching runs in the first place. Or maybe you should teach players how to enjoy the game instead of how to avoid playing it.

Because that’s what glitching is: not playing the game.

Shoot, forgot to add glitching as well, i feel cheated.

Well Oxxy, if I had 10s for everytime one of these “it ins’t fun” and “stacking/LoSing is wrong/non-intended” post was right then I’d be rich. Maybe not as rich as you, but rich anyway.

Oxxy.7068:

@Zelyhn
You don’t think it’s fun, i do.
The worst thing about players like you is… according to the OP it was supposed to be a learning run, (meaning he’d probably teach the usual mambo jambo every pug does, and lets face it, nobody does 1-1-1-1-1) and yet you feel entitled to ruin it for 3 other players trying to learn because “it ins’t fun”.

Ps.: I wish i had 10s for every post that stated “it ins’t fun” and “stacking/LoSing is wrong/non-intended” (with bonus 5s if it mentions healing, condition damage and crowd control builds), man i’d be rich.

I would be rolling in money. Factor in the ‘I play how I want’ and ’it’s my playstyle!’ comments and I would be baller.

Zelyhn.8069:

Sure OP, I can understand that. If it was a learning run then of course they should listen to you

My general comment remains valid.

Because that’s what glitching is: not playing the game.

I doesn’t remain valid just because you smugly insist it does. It’s your opinion. That’s all it is.

Come on I think we are all educated enough not to resort to “that’s only your opinion comments” …
Of course what someone says is only his opinion. Unless we are clearly quoting someone everything we say is only our opinion. That’s obvious enough I think. However, it does not take away any of its validity.

What I said is simple: glitching, abusing mechanics, and using unintended techniques ruin the fun one can find in this game.
This is because there is more fun in overcoming challenges than in getting “loots”.
Avoiding challenges to get loots is like playing Excel. It’s like the crafting table. It’s boring as hell.
Avoiding challenges is avoiding the game.

The OP replied to me that he was doing a learning run. That’s his choice, I respect that. But again, it does not take invalidate my statement.

Your opinion isn’t automatically valid, especially when it’s making judgment calls on highly subjective criteria.

Fun for you isn’t fun for everyone.

Yes it is a completely subjective opinion.
You may decide to ignore it on the basis that it is subjective, or you may decide to see if there is some logic behind it.

Some people find it fun just to get loots. I call them Excel players. Similar to those who farm diablo III: get items so that I can get items so that I can get items and then get bored.
So these players satisfy some short term view of fun.

Some people find it fun to enjoy the game they play in itself, rather than the few lines of text that tell them “good job you have finished the level you can now do the next level which is the same, with bigger numbers, but you now have bigger stats to match the bigger numbers of the level!”. So basically: the players who enjoy the trip rather than the idea of finishing it. These players satisfy a more long term view of fun.

My point is that it would be beneficial for the players and for the game to look for more long term fun.

Why are you all so stuck on the “validity” of his opinion? Don’t you even get what he’s trying to say?

@Zelyhn
I completely agree with you. My first experience doing CoE was similar and yes, it was challenging, but I learned how to overcome that challenge. Now, however, new people are getting taught how to do it via glitch and never gets a chance to learn.

Zelyhn.8069:

Yes it is a completely subjective opinion.
You may decide to ignore it on the basis that it is subjective, or you may decide to see if there is some logic behind it.

Some people find it fun just to get loots. I call them Excel players. Similar to those who farm diablo III: get items so that I can get items so that I can get items and then get bored.
So these players satisfy some short term view of fun.

Some people find it fun to enjoy the game they play in itself, rather than the few lines of text that tell them “good job you have finished the level you can now do the next level which is the same, with bigger numbers, but you now have bigger stats to match the bigger numbers of the level!”. So basically: the players who enjoy the trip rather than the idea of finishing it. These players satisfy a more long term view of fun.

My point is that it would be beneficial for the players and for the game to look for more long term fun.

Also your idea of long term fun is not the same as other’s.

swiftpaw.6397:

Also your idea of long term fun is not the same as other’s.

Wait you mean like we are all different and that there is no truth so nothing to talk about and no solution for anything?

You make me want to watch The Matrix again.

Yes, because the way we clear dungeons obviously isn’t challenging, that’s why everyone is doing dungeon paths in 10-15minutes.

Oh wait…

Get it

Bright.9160:

Yes, because the way we clear dungeons obviously isn’t challenging, that’s why everyone is doing dungeon paths in 10-15minutes.

Oh wait…

Get it

Sometimes I just stare at these forums and laugh manically. It’s just full of…. yeh..

All praise be to Baphomet at the end of the day.

I thought fun was subjective.

“Subjective” is just a way to say “hard to explain”, it’s like religious beliefs, or Russia’s foreign policy.
But I am an Azura and I can explain everything.

Zelyhn.8069:

“Subjective” is just a way to say “hard to explain”, it’s like religious beliefs, or Russia’s foreign policy.
But I am an Azura and I can explain everything.

Subjective- (comparative more subjective, superlative most subjective)
1.)Pertaining to subjects as opposed to objects (A subject is one who perceives or is aware; an object is the thing perceived or the thing that the subject is aware of.)
2.)Formed, as in opinions, based upon a person’s feelings or intuition, not upon observation or reasoning; coming more from within the observer than from observations of the external environment.
3.)Resulting from or pertaining to personal mindsets or experience, arising from perceptive mental conditions within the brain and not necessarily from external stimuli.
4.)Lacking in reality or substance.
5.)As used by Carl Jung the innate worldview orientation of the introverted personality types.
6.)(philosophy, psychology) Experienced by a person mentally and not directly verifiable by others

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/subjective

Intuition is just observation and reasoning that you are not consciously aware of. So hard to explain.

Zelyhn.8069:

Intuition is just observation and reasoning that you are not consciously aware of. So hard to explain.

You are forming your argument based upon your feelings or intuition. Easy enough to state instead of saying ‘My general comment remains valid’ and then supplying your opinions which do not, surprisingly, validate themselves just because you’ve stated them.

lol guy reminds me of the Sphinx from Mystery Men trying to sound deep

You must master the dodge roll, lest the dodge roll master you…

I think therefore it is.

swiftpaw.6397:

Zelyhn.8069:

Intuition is just observation and reasoning that you are not consciously aware of. So hard to explain.

You are forming your argument based upon your feelings or intuition. Easy enough to state instead of saying ‘My general comment remains valid’ and then supplying your opinions which do not, surprisingly, validate themselves just because you’ve stated them.

No my argument is logical. What is based upon feelings or intuition is the perception of fun. I am reasoning on the matter of a subject that is considered to be subjective. Luckily for me there is something that beats subjectivity: the law of large numbers. If my observations are numerous enough then I can draw a general rule, which I did. It may not be valid in all cases, but it is generally valid.

oh my god with the HMMMMM LOGIC! talk

Zelyhn.8069:

swiftpaw.6397:

Zelyhn.8069:

Intuition is just observation and reasoning that you are not consciously aware of. So hard to explain.

You are forming your argument based upon your feelings or intuition. Easy enough to state instead of saying ‘My general comment remains valid’ and then supplying your opinions which do not, surprisingly, validate themselves just because you’ve stated them.

No my argument is logical. What is based upon feelings or intuition is the perception of fun. I am reasoning on the matter of a subject that is considered to be subjective. Luckily for me there is something that beats subjectivity: the law of large numbers. If my observations are numerous enough then I can draw a general rule, which I did. It may not be valid in all cases, but it is generally valid.

You have yet to supply any evidence. Logically you should if you want to make such claims.

Broadicea.8294:

oh my god with the HMMMMM LOGIC! talk

I feel like that word is assaulted so many times in these forums. It is dragged out and flogged alive T_T.

How weak of me to think I can make a point, especially a law of large number point, without any evidence? I could tell you about the state of the gaming market, I could tell you that the proportion of achievement based games is higher than ever and still increasing, I could tell you about the the decreasing amount of time that people spend on individual games before changing, but that would not be enough would it? I should have recorded my life and that of all the gamers I know to be any close to have the evidence required … Too bad. I guess you win this one Swiftpaw.

Well it is hardly a surprise, this discussion is not new at all. This matter has been discussed over and over. And every time it probably ended up just like this: with lack of evidence from the defendant.

That reminds me of the type of discussion I had with my parents when I was a kid. I would always come up with the best arguments, I would destroy their logic and bring them to the brink of conceding. But every time they would simply end up telling me that they are right, that I should do as they say. They would tell me they would not be able to prove their points to me at that time, but that I would understand as I grow up.

Oh but wait! Now that I am all grown up I can see it: they were always right!

Could that mean that sometimes people can be right even though they have no evidence to back their claims? Does that mean that maybe the only real way to understand their point of view is to have the maturity to see it for ourselves, with good will?

Mysteries of life … Hm! Anyway I always like a good story

/sarcasm off
I am an Azura dude, I know what I am talking about.

Zelyhn.8069:

How weak of me to think I can make a point, especially a law of large number point, without any evidence? I could tell you about the state of the gaming market, I could tell you that the proportion of achievement based games is higher than ever and still increasing, I could tell you about the the decreasing amount of time that people spend on individual games before changing, but that would not be enough would it? I should have recorded my life and that of all the gamers I know to be any close to have the evidence required … Too bad. I guess you win this one Swiftpaw.

Well it is hardly a surprise, this discussion is not new at all. This matter has been discussed over and over. And every time it probably ended up just like this: with lack of evidence from the defendant.

That reminds me of the type of discussion I had with my parents when I was a kid. I would always come up with the best arguments, I would destroy their logic and bring them to the brink of conceding. But every time they would simply end up telling me that they are right, that I should do as they say. They would tell me they would not be able to prove their points to me at that time, but that I would understand as I grow up.

Oh but wait! Now that I am all grown up I can see it: they were always right!

Could that mean that sometimes people can be right even though they have no evidence to back their claims? Does that mean that maybe the only real way to understand their point of view is to have the maturity to see it for ourselves, with good will?

Mysteries of life … Hm! Anyway I always like a good story

/sarcasm off
I am an Azura dude, I know what I am talking about.

What are you even blathering about? O_O
/somanyemotions.

I’m telling you that you will understand my point when you grow up!

Zelyhn.8069:

I’m telling you that you will understand my point when you grow up!

What. I don’t understand.

Yes I know, it is very silly!
But it is just as silly as saying that this whole matter is subjective, so no positive statement can be made.

Now that we have covered all the technical aspects of the discussion we can go back to the matter in itself without resorting to “this is only your opinion” or “this is subjective”, and I will stay away from “I am an Azura statements”.

I guess I am going to state my point again because you probably have forgotten what we are talking about:

It is beneficial for the players and for the game to focus on long term enjoyement. Long term enjoyment is the type of fun that you get from playing the game as opposed to getting completion awards. This is why facing challenges the way they were intended to be faced is better.

Zelyhn.8069:

It is beneficial for the players and for the game to focus on long term enjoyement. Long term enjoyment is the type of fun that you get from playing the game as opposed to getting completion awards. This is why facing challenges the way they were intended to be faced is better.

I don’t disagree with you. But how do you determine what is intended and what isn’t? Some of it is obvious, some of it isn’t. It is obvious that it isn’t intended to jump over Arah and skip half of the dungeon. It isn’t so obvious that you are supposed to do the console hack 1-1-1-1-1, instead of 1-4 or 2-3. I would argue that you’re probably even given the option to do so intentionally, as ANet have had an entire year to change that console so that only one person can interact with it at a time.

My point is: How do you determine what is intended gameplay, and what isn’t? Some of it is obvious, a lot of it is grey area.

Zelyhn.8069:

How weak of me to think I can make a point, especially a law of large number point, without any evidence? I could tell you about the state of the gaming market, I could tell you that the proportion of achievement based games is higher than ever and still increasing, I could tell you about the the decreasing amount of time that people spend on individual games before changing, but that would not be enough would it? I should have recorded my life and that of all the gamers I know to be any close to have the evidence required … Too bad. I guess you win this one Swiftpaw.

Well it is hardly a surprise, this discussion is not new at all. This matter has been discussed over and over. And every time it probably ended up just like this: with lack of evidence from the defendant.

That reminds me of the type of discussion I had with my parents when I was a kid. I would always come up with the best arguments, I would destroy their logic and bring them to the brink of conceding. But every time they would simply end up telling me that they are right, that I should do as they say. They would tell me they would not be able to prove their points to me at that time, but that I would understand as I grow up.

Oh but wait! Now that I am all grown up I can see it: they were always right!

Could that mean that sometimes people can be right even though they have no evidence to back their claims? Does that mean that maybe the only real way to understand their point of view is to have the maturity to see it for ourselves, with good will?

Mysteries of life … Hm! Anyway I always like a good story

/sarcasm off
I am an Azura dude, I know what I am talking about.

Loved it.

I agree with you, it is hard to know.

I think that as a general rule we can say that encounters were meant to be challenging.
Skipping arah is actually challenging.
Hacking the console 1-4 is not challenging.
So if a technique makes an encounter not challenging then it is unintended.
Also we could consider a role play factor

(Yes Swiftpaw, challenge is a subjective notion)

Edit: It happens often that Anet does not fix some flaws in their dungeon designs because it would make the dungeon too hard for pugs and they would whine to the point the dungeon would have to be redesigned. This is what happened to CoF2’s defensive event with magg: they fixed the exploits and players complained so they had to redesign the encounter. But boy did I prefer the encounter before the redesign!

Zelyhn.8069:

I agree with you, it is hard to know.

I think that as a general rule we can say that encounters were meant to be challenging.
Skipping arah is actually challenging.
Hacking the console 1-4 is not challenging.
So if a technique makes an encounter not challenging then it is unintended.
Also we could consider a role play factor

(Yes Swiftpaw, challenge is a subjective notion)

You’re being subjective about how subjective you are when I am telling you that you are being subjective while being subjective in a subjective fashion.

Zelyhn.8069:

Also we could consider a role play factor

Great point. Have you ever seen a movie with 4 hackers and 1 bystander watching their efforts or 1 hacker and 4 bystanders? This is coming from someone who plays on RP server so I’m pretty experienced with that stuff.

Zelyhn.8069:

So if a technique makes an encounter not challenging then it is unintended.

That reminds me of some history classes about the dark ages…
“LOOK HE’S FLOATING ON THE WATER, IT IS UNINTENDED BEHAVIOR, KILL HIM!”

Seriously, theres a gap between a glitch and a strategy (fighting the Colossus rumblus guy on the pillar is a strategy, on the other hand luring the Howling king to the stairs is a glitch, and i do think thats a pretty easy concept to grasp).

Apparently berserker stats are unintended too.

haviz.1340:

Zelyhn.8069:

Also we could consider a role play factor

Great point. Have you ever seen a movie with 4 hackers and 1 bystander watching their efforts or 1 hacker and 4 bystanders? This is coming from someone who plays on RP server so I’m pretty experienced with that stuff.

Hm 1 hacker and 4 bystanders is much more likely!
Also there is only one console. This console has probably only one keyboard, with one enter key, one space key, etc. So a two-man hacking would be difficult.
We must consider the limitations of the processor of the console itself: is it dual core, can it bear two processor-heavy hacking processes at the same time?