Guild Wars 2

I keep seeing this focus of “Teamwork will prevail” when it comes to these forums and the problem people are having with dungeon difficulty and I’m not sure I understand it completely.

Now I have only done a few dungeons myself but what confuses me is that in those dungeons the only teamwork I find is when we use class skills to skip content usually “trash mobs” that are as hard or harder than bosses. I’m still not sure if skipping content is intended or an exploit or a work around or what. But I do understand why people do it.

But when it comes to boss or really any encounter it’s everyman for himself. Because the game has literally made it, every man for himself.

I play a Elementalist who uses dual daggers or a staff depending on the encounter. but what I have noticed is this. I can support myself great. Because I know where I’m going to be when I need healing, how much healing I need, where I’m dodging to, when my various skills are on cooldown, when I’m being attacked and so on. But I cannot effectively support allies (in many encounters) because I don’t have that information about them, combat mechanics often make us spread too wide for AOE heals to hit more than a minority, Aggro tables are random and seem non existent, and with some of our most effective damage avoidance skills being the dodge I never know where my allies are going to be when attacks start coming in.

Sure I try to toss around defensive and offensive boons to who is around me when I have combos up, I throw out a heal in the vicinity of an ally that I see low on health but really when it comes down to it I cannot do anything to help my teammates in battle except by doing well in battle. This is exactly the same for them as well. The warrior cant do much to help me at all in combat if I get aggro (which I honestly prefer these days) It up to me to deal with it. no one can save me no one can help me.

To use an example I ran a SE (Storymode) recently and for the first time. One fight stood out to me so much there I had to laugh at the absurdity. In the Kudu boss encounter my team and I were again forced away from each other because of AOE bouncing between us, and other AOE effects targeted on individuals hurting anyone near them. After a few wipes I decided like some of my other teammates to just stop trying to help one another completely, just tank what aggro you get, heal yourself, and dps when you can in between those… Encounter success!

This seems to be the general strategy for boss fights that don’t have specific gimmick mechanics you have to use to beat them. (and no, I don’t mean gimmick in a bad way) #1 Take care of yourself, dodge, heal, deal DPS when you can. #2 if a teammate fails in this and is downed, attempt to res them <- (Ahh There is the teamwork!) But if you cant res them then leave them to die and run back. #3 Profit

I don’t have too much trouble with the dungeon model (personally I dislike High HP high damage based boss difficulty) but it works fine I suppose. But what I don’t get is why people are advocating teamwork. Please tell me what you are doing in battle that is teamwork oriented because nearly every time without fail that I try to actively heal my party, Pull aggro off an ally who is hurting, or otherwise actively help my team it fails. I would love to be able to play like this and support my team in some way but I just don’t see how.

As it stands I depend on no one in combat and no one depends on me. I’ve had boss encounters where 2 or 3 of us beat it while 2 or 3 others constantly die and run back because they aren’t self sufficient enough. but it didn’t matter at all to those of us that had correct builds/played well. The fight was a little longer. So what? We didn’t need those other people at all because again. We are reliant on no one else.

It’s gotten to the point sometimes where I wont go to rally particular people in my party during certain encounters because being near them and getting them up is a danger to me because now I’m stationary, and they aren’t worth my time because they will just die again since they are not self sufficient enough, so as far as I’m concerned they can just die and run back. Wow… that sounded pretty coldhearted after I read what I typed there… I should clarify that that particular case doesn’t happen often nor is it a prospect that I enjoy doing.

TLDR Anyways Please let me know. If you are a supporter, tank, whatever… how do you use teamwork in encounters? Because I’m just not seeing any strong teamwork in dungeons or even a need for it.

Reviving each other is pretty much the number 1 priority, and that alone makes most story modes easy.

Are your team mates using your fields to increase healing? How about to cure? Are they using your fields to create aoe shielding? Are you using earth as an elemntalist to trigger cures or lifesteal, blinds, confusion or pop heals off of other classess fields? Are you supporting each other with blinds, knockdowns, slows or interupts if someone becomes focused, giving them a chance to get away and/or heal themselves up? I didn’t see you mention any of those things. I think you are mistakingly using WoW’s definition of teamwork in GW2, instead of GW2’s definition of teamwork.

People are gonna tell you that you are supposed to use VOIP or at the very least ask your teammates what abilities they have so you guys can figure out what synergies you can use.

Ive found support pretty impossible unless your teammates know you very well, or you have VOIP. I need to announce what I’m doing before hand so people can take advantage of it, for example if I throw a small water healing spring, people can then proc off a bunch of heal affects off of it.
Fields last for such a ridiculous short time. I understand they would be a bit OP for pvp if everything lasted 5 + seconds, but it’s just dumb for PVE, its just not fun.

Deathfrost.9145:

People are gonna tell you that you are supposed to use VOIP or at the very least ask your teammates what abilities they have so you guys can figure out what synergies you can use.

Ive found support pretty impossible unless your teammates know you very well, or you have VOIP. I need to announce what I’m doing before hand so people can take advantage of it, for example if I throw a small water healing spring, people can then proc off a bunch of heal affects off of it.
Fields last for such a ridiculous short time. I understand they would be a bit OP for pvp if everything lasted 5 + seconds, but it’s just dumb for PVE, its just not fun.

lol…what?

I’ve never ventured into a VOIP server for a dungeon. Nor meticulously dissected everyone’s builds to make sure they synergize perfectly.

Here, give me you class and I’ll give you at least 5 ways you can support your team without VOIP or some kind of intense spreadsheet synergizing.

If you’re offering support, it’s up to your team mates to use it intelligently as well as you to provide it intelligently. I can empathise, as more than once I’ve popped down a Chaos Storm to buff allies and they’ve responded with “OMFG AN AOE DODGE OUT OF IT!” Calmly pointing out that the purple bubbles will, in fact, not instantly kill you has gone a long way, though, and I think this is what most people forget; you can swap your skills before a fight, you can chat to your team mates before a fight. Tell them what to look out for, even what combo fields or finishers you can provide, what support you can offer. Really, it’s not that hard.

(Also, swapping to “simple” party layout in the options has helped me no end.)

Efaicia.3672:

Are your team mates using your fields to increase healing? How about to cure? Are they using your fields to create aoe shielding? Are you using earth as an elemntalist to trigger cures or lifesteal, blinds, confusion or pop heals off of other classess fields? Are you supporting each other with blinds, knockdowns, slows or interupts if someone becomes focused, giving them a chance to get away and/or heal themselves up? I didn’t see you mention any of those things. I think you are mistakingly using WoW’s definition of teamwork in GW2, instead of GW2’s definition of teamwork.

I’m an Ele so fields/combos are bread and butter. But I find chasing down an ally to try to heal them or drop a combo to try to give them breathing room or anything like that results directly in myself dying later because I not don’t have that skill to save myself. And often that ally I was trying to save because they had less than 20% health would have been fine, Dodge, block, self heal, They don’t need anyone supporting them. They have their own. So by using mine its a waste.

Just to clarify I don’t have a problem clearing dungeons. I just wish there was more teamwork and am wondering where all this teamwork others are using comes from because I know I cringe when another Elementalist drops a healing rain on me right as I dodge out of the area and self heal, to only watch them die moments later when they cant drop that healing rain on themselves. I’m using healing as the example but it really goes for any defensive skill.

Deathfrost.9145:

People are gonna tell you that you are supposed to use VOIP or at the very least ask your teammates what abilities they have so you guys can figure out what synergies you can use.

Ive found support pretty impossible unless your teammates know you very well, or you have VOIP. I need to announce what I’m doing before hand so people can take advantage of it, for example if I throw a small water healing spring, people can then proc off a bunch of heal affects off of it.
Fields last for such a ridiculous short time. I understand they would be a bit OP for pvp if everything lasted 5 + seconds, but it’s just dumb for PVE, its just not fun.

I have to yell at my guild mates, who I’ve played with for a good 8 years, and who have cleared many MMO’s, to get into my regeneration fields because they’re too scared to stand in any field for fear of death.

Lokki.1092:

To use an example I ran a SE (Storymode) recently and for the first time. One fight stood out to me so much there I had to laugh at the absurdity. In the Kudu boss encounter my team and I were again forced away from each other because of AOE bouncing between us, and other AOE effects targeted on individuals hurting anyone near them. After a few wipes I decided like some of my other teammates to just stop trying to help one another completely, just tank what aggro you get, heal yourself, and dps when you can in between those… Encounter success!

IMO That is the very definition of team work. You saw the problem of the AOE, figured out a solution and implemented a strategy as a team to be successful. At least that’s how a read your example.

Lokki.1092:

Efaicia.3672:

Are your team mates using your fields to increase healing? How about to cure? Are they using your fields to create aoe shielding? Are you using earth as an elemntalist to trigger cures or lifesteal, blinds, confusion or pop heals off of other classess fields? Are you supporting each other with blinds, knockdowns, slows or interupts if someone becomes focused, giving them a chance to get away and/or heal themselves up? I didn’t see you mention any of those things. I think you are mistakingly using WoW’s definition of teamwork in GW2, instead of GW2’s definition of teamwork.

I’m an Ele so fields/combos are bread and butter. But I find chasing down an ally to try to heal them or drop a combo to try to give them breathing room or anything like that results directly in myself dying later because I not don’t have that skill to save myself. And often that ally I was trying to save because they had less than 20% health would have been fine, Dodge, block, self heal, They don’t need anyone supporting them. They have their own. So by using mine its a waste.

Just to clarify I don’t have a problem clearing dungeons. I just wish there was more teamwork and am wondering where all this teamwork others are using comes from because I know I cringe when another Elementalist drops a healing rain on me right as I dodge out of the area and self heal, to only watch them die moments later when they cant drop that healing rain on themselves. I’m using healing as the example but it really goes for any defensive skill.

Reading this, I’m going to assume you’re a staff ele.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stoning – Indefinite weakness, lowers damage output significantly of everything

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Aura – Jump in front of projectiles and send them back (works really well the stronger the projectile)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Field_ – 2 second AoE stun, not bad

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Surge – Blind, makes a one shot ability have a chance to do nothing

That’s in addition to your water spells that you are using. And that’s just defensive support. Fire attunement has some fire fields that stack crazy amounts of burning on a target with a couple ranged in the team, water attunement always stacks a lot of vulnerability, increasing everyone’s damage by 10-20%.

Ahlen.7591:

I have to yell at my guild mates, who I’ve played with for a good 8 years, and who have cleared many MMO’s, to get into my regeneration fields because they’re too scared to stand in any field for fear of death.

That’s the conditioning that happens when making a single mistake of standing in the fire spells instant doom >.<

I think the difference between harmful and friendly fields in guild wars 2 are very clear though, except for maybe fire type things.

Lokki.1092:

I’m an Ele so fields/combos are bread and butter.

I just wish there was more teamwork and am wondering where all this teamwork others are using comes from.

Healing Rain for one is a god awful heal to use as a quick heal, Geyser does that. However, after picking up Evasive Arcana, it becomes a fairly good size regen and AoE healing machine. Dodge roll into HR for 2.3k AoE heal anyone? (4.7k in water attunement huzzah for double dip). Also, anyone shooting through that field gets regeneration, and a lot of it, who said you needed to put it on people, just put it in front of them. Same deal goes for the other stuff, a quick Static Field to stack vuln or to lock in a pack of trash works great as control, as does Frozen Ground (perma chilled mobs are easy mode).

Our Guardian yells as he’s casting his AoE Lay on Hands (though it’s pretty easy to tell from the big glowing book in his face as he’s running from mobs) and we all group up for it.

Oh, forgot Frozen Ground on my list, that skill is amazing for kiting the big bads around.

There are a lot of useful things Eles in particular can do, unfortunately, all of the cool CC effects last all of about 2-3 seconds (roughly half the duration of other select classes), are easily avoidable (in PvP at least, sucks for those dungeon mobs though), but have cooldowns that are 2-3 times as long as other classes cripples/chills/stuns/immobilizes. Something there doesn’t add up, but I’m no mathematician, and I’m certainly not trying to derail this thread.

Papaj.9035:

There are a lot of useful things Eles in particular can do, unfortunately, all of the cool CC effects last all of about 2-3 seconds (roughly half the duration of other select classes), are easily avoidable (in PvP at least, sucks for those dungeon mobs though), but have cooldowns that are 2-3 times as long as other classes cripples/chills/stuns/immobilizes. Something there doesn’t add up, but I’m no mathematician, and I’m certainly not trying to derail this thread.

Well, it does add up when you consider they have 4 “weapon sets”.

Papaj.9035:

Healing Rain for one is a god awful heal to use as a quick heal, Geyser does that. However, after picking up Evasive Arcana, it becomes a fairly good size regen and AoE healing machine. Dodge roll into HR for 2.3k AoE heal anyone? (4.7k in water attunement huzzah for double dip). Also, anyone shooting through that field gets regeneration, and a lot of it, who said you needed to put it on people, just put it in front of them. Same deal goes for the other stuff, a quick Static Field to stack vuln or to lock in a pack of trash works great as control, as does Frozen Ground (perma chilled mobs are easy mode).

Our Guardian yells as he’s casting his AoE Lay on Hands (though it’s pretty easy to tell from the big glowing book in his face as he’s running from mobs) and we all group up for it.

I like healing rain + Blast finisher for a quick Boost in health plus regen. It’s my go to while my fingers are crossed in hopes that someone is close enough to benefit from it or will run through the area sometime soon after. Though I also swap to dagger / dagger a lot depending on encounter. I don’t think I’m being clear though.

Its not that I don’t use any of those other skills. Its that I find little use for supporting others because

1 teammates have equal or better skills to deal with the problems they are getting into.

2 I need those skills for myself.

See In a good group, I don’t heal anyone. I don’t support anyone, I don’t blind mobs for anyone, I don’t chill mobs for anyone. I don’t need too. other conditions are often automatic so I don’t even control them they just happen when I’m fighting like vulnerability. I don’t do it because I don’t need to help anyone stay alive ever. At all. Thief has aggro, He cripples, he tosses a smoke screen and he disappears moments later. If I’m nearby I may combo off that smoke to disappear myself if aggro comes my way. but I’m not helping him out actively and he’s not helping me. Because we don’t need to. As far as I care he could be a bot.

In a bad group it is annoying actually because I cannot do anything to help people that are not as good, without sacrificing my own survivability. If I toss out a blind, then a stun, a root and then use my heals on a target who is in trouble and cant help themselves… then what do I do when the enemy comes for me? all my survivability skills and combos are on cooldown. Am I to hope someone also will spend theirs on me? In my experience that is not something that I can count on.

Though now I’m thinking… Voip may be the way to go to facilitate that.

I agree that you can’t count on randoms to do things for you, but I find it hard to believe that you have exhausted every possible skill at your disposal, at least with the staff, to stave (no pun intended) off enemies. Particularly with 3 utility skills that all break stun, 1 of which cleanses all conditions on you, another which grants stability and protection, and a final which is complete immunity and freedom of movement. I always tell people if they want heals, even guild members I’m on TS with, to come to me or to stop moving for 2 seconds and I’ll fire something their way. Leading intended targets helps as well.

Good post, OP. Honestly, the way PvE in this game is designed is fundamentally flawed. It just don’t work as a cooperative experience,

Playing dungeons in this game has made me want to go play WoW again…

The player base has been emphasizing this problem since Ascalon Catacombs was released.

Unfortunately, Anet was so concerned with eliminating role specialization, they gave us game mechanics that don’t reward team coordination, but just a group of talented individuals.

:/
I’m amazed they’ve made absolutely no progress fixing this issue for the 6+ months it has been addressed. It’s at the core of the “where is the endgame” issue. I’m skeptical they will ever even acknowledge it’s an issue.

While the “endgame” content is technically there. It’s not the “group” experience. It’s just 5 people coming together for their own shared solo-experience.