Guild Wars 2

Efaicia I tend to use staff because of nice aoe chill/cripple combination, I often take the role of crowd controller. In case of elementalist I find other weapon sets ‘uncomfortable’ for me. It’s rather the matter of my personal playstyle. I switch for scepter/focus when I feel it’s better.

I honestly wish I could agree with you efaicia, I REALLY do, but sadly you seem to like the idea of the mmo genre claiming to evolve into something new but staying the same only covering it up better and failing to cover their evolutionary new changes due to tuning their dungeon encounters to REQUIRE a specific class or party loadout, every time my thief recieves nerfs to it’s spammable poop, I praise them, and every time they fail to offer up better support skills for it and other classes and not penalising them by having dps thresholds that can’t possibly be beaten in dungeons paths unless we “zone out and retrait <_<” or kite them while at the same time punishing players for getting around it because it’s badly tuned I simply feel it is all counter intuitive, and counter intuitive is a sign of bad design

@guen: there shouldn’t really be any issue with what weapon you use, as its supposed to be all about even, perhaps it WILL end up more even, but ultimately they are not giving me much reason to think that will happen in any timely manner to save the idea of the dungeon options of progressing which should imho have been an option to those that didn’t want to farm open world mobs etc and wanted a more “challenging but rewarding” option via dungeons.

Efaicia.3672:

So you are trying to say they have no choice if they want to keep players, they MUST be and do things like WoW and the hundreds of failed games who also tried to emulate it? Yes, lets do that!!

did you even read the last paragraph? or do you go immediately “he doesn’t want hard content for everybody HE MUST ME A WOWBABBY WHO WANTS WELFARE LEGENDARYS”

the point is you offer content for as much possible demographics as you can. there are people that want hard content, but want to be rewarded properly for it, such as there are people that have no problem aoe-grinding a dungeon if it takes three times as long. making dungeons hard AND long, and any other option pointless or nerfing it to the ground makes only a minuscule percentage of players happy. and a.net neither because the unhappy rest won’t buy gems.

it’s not rocket science.

The idea of a dungeon lockout after a number of runs is the worst idea you could ever come up with, and to be honest (which I’ll explain further down in this post), Crucifer, you’re kind of play wrong on most points.

I’ll admit the dungeon nerfs were a bit much, the difficulty increases were needed and are fine as they are, but the reward nerf ontop of it is a little drastic.

My guild on Gate of Madness, Seraphim, makes regular runs of dungeons even after this patch, it’s still easy for us and we don’t have to kite during the defend event, it’s called having proper supports/good players.

Okay and now to the reason why a lockout dungeon would be the worst thing in the world. If anyone here has played a game called Vindictus they’d know this idea is plain bad. That game had instances where you could run them endlessly and have fun with your friends/guildies getting your gear and whatever, then hackers came along and began to farm these. Nexon’s solution? 1 a day instances, know what happened? the hackers kept on farming, normal players up and quit because it was boring/played for an hour a day and left it.

Ruining dungeons for the rest of us because people will farm and whatever else is just dumb, there is already little to do at 80 and any 80 knows this.

Don’t ruin dungeons by doing this sort of stupid limitation, it will only hurt the population more. Simply rebuff the reward so a tiny profit can be made from dungeons, not that runs cost money (which is about your only point I agree on Crucifer). AND THE DIFFICULTY NEEDS TO STAY, it was stupid easy before and boring, anyone who doesn’t agree with this is probably just some gold farmer who wants to sit around all day in CoF with pugs.

Guen.3180:

Efaicia I tend to use staff because of nice aoe chill/cripple combination, I often take the role of crowd controller. In case of elementalist I find other weapon sets ‘uncomfortable’ for me. It’s rather the matter of my personal playstyle. I switch for scepter/focus when I feel it’s better.

Use them all, you chaining yourself to one weapon set is making you weaker.

@Hellkaiser, the genre CANNOT evolve into something else with constant complaining from the player base when something isn’t how they ’are used to it being" Nor can it evolve past the holy trinity when people insist on making “tanky” or “healy” builds and trying to force it to be a holy trinity instead of learning what Arenanet has actually done.. No class combo is required I play regularly with a thief, he does well shrug he barely had a bill after last nights escapades.

Who are you to decide what is bad design? How is it bad? Compaired to what? You HAVE to be compairing it to something to judge it ’bad" what are you using for a base?

@Gray There is conent in abundance for ALL play styles and types. ALL PLAY STYLES AND TYPES. you are demanding they take the content made specificlly for “hard-core” “elite” with well organized groups available to all because “they paid for it too” You know what that is called, right? Don’t even get me started with the “entitlement generation”
I personaly enjoy the dungeons. I have crap gear, I rarely die..HMMMM. Gear must not be uber important here….

I do agree in total ^ with first post.

However……I don’t see a dev reply….does anyone, maybe reddit?

Efaicia.3672:

Guen.3180:

Efaicia I tend to use staff because of nice aoe chill/cripple combination, I often take the role of crowd controller. In case of elementalist I find other weapon sets ‘uncomfortable’ for me. It’s rather the matter of my personal playstyle. I switch for scepter/focus when I feel it’s better.

Use them all, you chaining yourself to one weapon set is making you weaker.

@Hellkaiser, the genre CANNOT evolve into something else with constant complaining from the player base when something isn’t how they ’are used to it being" Nor can it evolve past the holy trinity when people insist on making “tanky” or “healy” builds and trying to force it to be a holy trinity instead of learning what Arenanet has actually done.. No class combo is required I play regularly with a thief, he does well shrug he barely had a bill after last nights escapades.

Who are you to decide what is bad design? How is it bad? Compaired to what? You HAVE to be compairing it to something to judge it ’bad" what are you using for a base?

@Gray There is conent in abundance for ALL play styles and types. ALL PLAY STYLES AND TYPES. you are demanding they take the content made specificlly for “hard-core” “elite” with well organized groups available to all because “they paid for it too” You know what that is called, right? Don’t even get me started with the “entitlement generation”
I personaly enjoy the dungeons. I have crap gear, I rarely die..HMMMM. Gear must not be uber important here….

I’ll stop you there, “tanky or healy builds” this is common sense when dealing with mobs that instagib you to ensure you have at least that hp and survival to not instadown and have to rely on luck via the flawed aggro system to survive but when you’re penalised for building to not instadown, to live long enough to throw out support (a lot of the support group type buffing traits are in the vitality etc tree’s), that’s no more a players fault than anything out of their control design wise nor was kiting a group of mobs intended to be killed who are an overtuned dps gear check to bypass the entire rubbish thing, I say more respect to the players for that, it’s just getting passed a flawed and sinister system element that contradicts their “intended” design ethos

That is called common sense, and whilst I can accept a differing opinion, I find it somewhat annoying to see that attitude and stance you’re adopting.

It’s not that we want it how we’re used to, we just want it to make effing sense, and be consistant with what we were told would be the case, ie not grindfests of headbanging fail and random damage spikes which nuke glasscannons.
If we’re going to deal with that it won’t take long before it exasperates the “lf x class” and soon we’ve got EXACTLY what they said wouldn’t be the case AGAIN where we would have to invite that jerk because he was a monk… that’s in DIRECT opposition to what they promised right there. And no I don’t think that retraiting mid dungeon is acceptable not at a cost so that you can just meet a tired old mechanic we’re VERY used to “the dps gear check” why not just add enrage timers at that point and really prove nothing has been learned?

I don’t find exporable mode to be as bad as many claim, I don’t…

But I do resent them taking those horribly tuned gearcheck corpse conga’s which have players resorting to stripping down and shoving them down our throat as “working as intended”

no RobHrouda, it’s awful and many would rather move to a different game and be bitter at the broken promises, than move on and accept it

Efaicia.3672:

@Hellkaiser, the genre CANNOT evolve into something else with constant complaining from the player base when something isn’t how they ’are used to it being" Nor can it evolve past the holy trinity when people insist on making “tanky” or “healy” builds and trying to force it to be a holy trinity instead of learning what Arenanet has actually done.. No class combo is required I play regularly with a thief, he does well shrug he barely had a bill after last nights escapades.

wat? holy trinity doesn’t mean everybody can go class cannon and succeed. you still need specialized specs with a focus on healing and offer protection. also don’t get hung up too much on that “evolved”. guild wars 1 had a more evolved endgame than this. this is vanilla wow “farm scholo/strat” level.

Efaicia.3672:

@Gray There is conent in abundance for ALL play styles and types. ALL PLAY STYLES AND TYPES. you are demanding they take the content made specificlly for “hard-core” “elite” with well organized groups available to all because “they paid for it too” You know what that is called, right? Don’t even get me started with the “entitlement generation”

this just shows you still don’t get the point. this is about dungeons, how they were in games people are coming from, and what they expect from them. no one said ANYTHING about having only one difficulty for all dungeons. you can absolutely have easy and challenging dungeons at the same time, which can offer rewards in tune with their difficulty/time investment. if you are unable to even acknowledge this, this discussion is moot.

as for content “in abundance”: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/
lets have a look, shall we? what is their endgame?
- dungeons (only for the elite)
- meta events per zone (how often can you do these for some green/blues before it gets dull?
- 100% world completion (that SURE is exciting on the second char)
- story (which becomes almost the same after level 30)
besides that we got
- playing the TP
- farming which gets hampered more and more
- getting a legendary, which is tied to farming.

if you think that is abundance, I honestly don’t want to know what your definition of scarcity is. so far the only thing remotely having any long term appeal to keep people busy pve-wise are dungeons. just like every other mmo before and after gw2. who would’ve known.

do you NOW get why it’s a bad idea to keep dungeon to a tiny fraction of the playerbase only?

Efaicia.3672:

I personaly enjoy the dungeons. I have crap gear, I rarely die..HMMMM. Gear must not be uber important here….

come back when you did more than AC/CM and COF magg pre nerf.

Kenral.9317:

I do agree in total ^ with first post.

However……I don’t see a dev reply….does anyone, maybe reddit?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/The-CoF-Buff-My-opinions/page/2#post158017 Robert Hrouda’s post in this topic.

Shiesty moves imo.

Artificially increase the amount of time it takes to get something without adding anything new to the game.

You and I both know, Robert, that this is shiesty and sloppy game design. I may not have worked on AAA titles like you, but I have worked on my fair share of multiplayer games and I can tell you that this single change was one of the worst decisions you guys at ANet could have made.

Chilsung.3710:

3. Final Boss encounter isn’t threatening.

3. I made the fireballs hurt more. Not greatly more – they’ll do about 3-4k damage to a DPS focused player, but you should have anywhere between 15k-25k HP, so there’s a bit of wiggle room for error.

To tell the truth this fight still feels like a joke. At no point before or after the change did I feel at all threatened. You can basically run around casually and the encounter can last indefinitely because nothing will actually attack you.

I agree with your post, but imho not every boss needs split second reaction and raid-level coordination. put up a stacking aoe the more acolytes are up. or reflective shield for the core. there are plenty of ways to make it mechanically more challenging and interesting than. “slap a higher number and more mobs on it”

was COF pre-nerf too short? maybe, 10-15 more minutes wouldn’t have hurt. fixing the lava section alone should have added some more time. but I don’t know what all the changes + nerfed reward were supposed to accomplish

@ Hellkaiser Just because I said “healy” or “tanky” does not mean I run with a glass connon build, I do not, nor would I want to play with someone who is running one. That was my point. If 1 person in your group is gearing/speccing JUST for defense thinking ‘Hey! I’m going to be “tanky” and you have another person speccing into all heals and +healing and +power saying, “Ok, I’m healy!” Then you are essentially forcing the holy trinity and are not going to be playing right as you are putting too much focus on 1 or 2 (or even just yourself) instead of how your group is working together.

That is not called common sense, that is called the holy trinity. Common sense in this game would be to go over from the start who has what finishers and who has what fields and how they can be used together to heal, weaken or control the mobs. Who has what reflects, silences, who can elimminate projectiles and when should all of those be used.

What makes “Effing sense” is you basing something off of what you already know ie; you want it to match what previous games have done so that you understand it more.
I have never had to respec mid instance, nor have any of my group mates.
“corpse congas”?
If you are playing this way it is your own fault. It is not however the way it should be played, the dungeon may be working as intended, however the player is being a kitten.

There is one thing I want to say about this. I agree about the fact that this needed a buff, since we were able to steamroll it with little to no knowledge about the route at all before. Some deaths, but that’s to be expected. However, the part that you buffed, where you even added an additional ranged enemy is next to impossible without very specific setups, forcing the players to play, not by the “holy trinity”, but by a whole new system. I don’t see how that is better.
Then, there is also the thing about Robert Hrouda saying that he intended us to fight those. If you intended us to fight those, then sure, go ahead and add more mobs and double the time it takes to do that event. However, make us actually be able to do it the way you intended us to. If you don’t want a kitefest, then you have to consider the time it takes to kill those enemies. I’m not saying we should be able to kill all of them, but at least pick off the most threatening ones while kiting the others. This effectively makes your players have to strategically plan out which enemies to kill instead of running around like headless chickens. This will require a lot of balancing, and that’s exactly why I believe this decision was rushed, and the reason why I agree with the OP.

So, what has to be done?
You have to reduce the health of the enemies that spawn to make us able to kill at least two enemies per wave. Also, buff the final boss and remove the reward chest from defusing the bombs if you feel like the risk/reward ratio is too imbalanced.

Sorry for not being able to write very well. I’m not good at things like that, even though I’m not bad at grammar or spelling. It’s not perfect, but good at least.

They should realy do something about it… I was halfway on the set and now it cant do it because i dont have a ‘uber geared/pro’ team that can beat the kiting event….

due bordom getting 100% map completion… untill its fixed

infacts i almost get same money/h doing map completion as i had in the instance before the nerf.

Gray.9650:

Efaicia.3672:

@Hellkaiser, the genre CANNOT evolve into something else with constant complaining from the player base when something isn’t how they ’are used to it being" Nor can it evolve past the holy trinity when people insist on making “tanky” or “healy” builds and trying to force it to be a holy trinity instead of learning what Arenanet has actually done.. No class combo is required I play regularly with a thief, he does well shrug he barely had a bill after last nights escapades.

wat? holy trinity doesn’t mean everybody can go class cannon and succeed. you still need specialized specs with a focus on healing and offer protection. also don’t get hung up too much on that “evolved”. guild wars 1 had a more evolved endgame than this. this is vanilla wow “farm scholo/strat” level.

Efaicia.3672:

@Gray There is conent in abundance for ALL play styles and types. ALL PLAY STYLES AND TYPES. you are demanding they take the content made specificlly for “hard-core” “elite” with well organized groups available to all because “they paid for it too” You know what that is called, right? Don’t even get me started with the “entitlement generation”

this just shows you still don’t get the point. this is about dungeons, how they were in games people are coming from, and what they expect from them. no one said ANYTHING about having only one difficulty for all dungeons. you can absolutely have easy and challenging dungeons at the same time, which can offer rewards in tune with their difficulty/time investment. if you are unable to even acknowledge this, this discussion is moot.

as for content “in abundance”: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/
lets have a look, shall we? what is their endgame?
- dungeons (only for the elite)
- meta events per zone (how often can you do these for some green/blues before it gets dull?
- 100% world completion (that SURE is exciting on the second char)
- story (which becomes almost the same after level 30)
besides that we got
- playing the TP
- farming which gets hampered more and more
- getting a legendary, which is tied to farming.

if you think that is abundance, I honestly don’t want to know what your definition of scarcity is. so far the only thing remotely having any long term appeal to keep people busy pve-wise are dungeons. just like every other mmo before and after gw2. who would’ve known.

do you NOW get why it’s a bad idea to keep dungeon to a tiny fraction of the playerbase only?

Efaicia.3672:

I personaly enjoy the dungeons. I have crap gear, I rarely die..HMMMM. Gear must not be uber important here….

come back when you did more than AC/CM and COF magg pre nerf.

My entire point is just that, people need to get out of their heads how dungeons were in other games and quit expecting them to be that way here. PERIOD. There are different difficulties for every dungeon. See; story mode and then go look at all of the different paths for each dungeon. looks like different difficulties to me. I’m not entirely sure what argument you are calling moot? The explorables HAVE ALWAYS been said to be only for coordinated groups, not pugs, however even the different paths have different difficulties.

Just because YOU don’t like the content they have in for each play style does not mean it is not there IN ABUNDANCE. because it is. I wonder how many of these ‘cassual’ players have 100% map completetion? Or how many of the events they do, or do they just run to the nearest dragon spawn and camp it while farming then come to the forums and complain about how dungeons are too hard? I wonder how many of them have completed their story line? How many of the jump puzzles have they done?

Don’t presume to know what others have or have not seen/done.

Hi all,

I just read through a couple of posts after the dev responded. What I notice is that people want stuff NOW, not in a month or 2 weeks…just NOW….What we need to get in our minds is that, ANet wants us to have long term goals….not having to do a dungeon 2 weeks in a roll to get that cool armor.

To put an example, when you want something in real life that’s really expensive, for example…a high end gaming computer. We save money to buy each component or the computer as a whole, either of the 2 ways is going to take a few of your paychecks, unless of course you’re making like $1000 a day (for the sake of the example, let’s suppose this computer costs $20000)…It’s a long term goal, you also spend some of your money on other things, like food or paying the bills or whatever. That’s the behavior Anet is looking for with Guild Wars 2 I believe, everytime you log, you dedicate a portion of your time to your long term goals and then do whatever else you want, for example, 1 dungeon each day, sPvP, WvWvW, level another character, help guild etc. Now of course, there are people (including me to some extent) that just want to work towards that long term goal at a specific time, so I log in and all I do is CoF runs or whatever to get that armor, but there is a sacrifice, I’m going to suffer at some point cause It’s gonna get boring and monotonous etc. If you saved all your paycheck just for the gaming computer, certainly you could not go out to the movies or buy McDonalds or whatever. You’re sacrificing that cause of saving more money and getting the computer faster…basically in game, you’re sacrificing “fun” cause of getting that cool armor faster…So that’s my opinion on the subject, I love this game and I’m more than willing to make a change in my mentality (the mentality from other MMOs to just do dungeons till you get something) to have the most possible fun Now having fun is subjective of course, if you’re not happy with the system this game has to offer, then go play something else…simple as that

EvenTargS.3279:

To put an example, when you want something in real life that’s really expensive, for example…a high end gaming computer. We save money to buy each component or the computer as a whole, either of the 2 ways is going to take a few of your paychecks, unless of course you’re making like $1000 a day (for the sake of the example, let’s suppose this computer costs $20000)…It’s a long term goal, you also spend some of your money on other things, like food or paying the bills or whatever.

Yes, it’s supposed to take time. Not be impossible or frustrating because it’s hard for the wrong reasons. They are doing well, but the problem is that they have no end-game. That means the only thing you can do after level 80 is repeat what you have already done, play PvP or farm dungeons or karma for those armor sets and weapons you want. However, when farming those dungeons takes forever because it’s not balanced properly, it really turns people off. Also, some events, not only in dungeons are bugged which prevents progress and forces restarts. For people who can’t put in a lot of time each day, or barely any at all, this becomes a huge issue. The casuals should have a chance of actually progressing at a decent rate too.

By the way, Anet should learn from WoW with the first win of the day things. I don’t think 15 tokens instead of 5 is rewarding enough, since the hardcore players farm for several hours each day. Making the dungeons harder and the rewards lower only punishes the casual for not playing as much.

The Problem with Magg Path is you cant escort it, Magg just goes and attack mobs and you cant kill all mobs while they respawn again, Magg should not attack anyone and should only follow the players. >.>

Robert Hrouda.1327:

2. Instead of fighting the enemies in a timed event at he door buster, you just circle strafe them or leash aggro them to “kill the clock” since it was only a 100 second timer on the event.

2. I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them. I also added 1 additional mob to the encounter at the very middle (a bow dude) to account for you now having twice the time to defeat the waves that come in.

I Can’t express how angry this statement made me.

You Guys designed a dungeon , tested it , found it suitable and released it. We came in saw, and figured out a strat. A good strat , no exploits, no bugs, we made use of our CCs etc. We played by the rules you set.

But as this didn’t agree with your vision you buffed it.

NOW YOU EXPECT US TO THINK OF A WHOLE NEW STRAT!!! Why ??? whats the point. You probably with disagree the new strat too and buff the dungeon again.

fortytwo.3485:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

2. Instead of fighting the enemies in a timed event at he door buster, you just circle strafe them or leash aggro them to “kill the clock” since it was only a 100 second timer on the event.

2. I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them. I also added 1 additional mob to the encounter at the very middle (a bow dude) to account for you now having twice the time to defeat the waves that come in.

I Can’t express how angry this statement made me.

You Guys designed a dungeon , tested it , found it suitable and released it. We came in saw, and figured out a strat. A good strat , no exploits, no bugs, we made use of our CCs etc. We played by the rules you set.

But as this didn’t agree with your vision you buffed it.

NOW YOU EXPECT US TO THINK OF A WHOLE NEW STRAT!!! Why ??? whats the point. You probably with disagree the new strat too and buff the dungeon again.

And then when you think of a new strat you get punished for it because its not how its meant to be played.

How about this anet, you paint arrows on your dungeon floors, point us where to go, write on the walls for us instructions on how to handle the mobs

Game guides you know

Just noticed, he added a bow guy? I hate to say this but the fact that 5 guardians still whip this thing astounds me and you can fix the 30 minute thing by just sitting around with a 10 minute bathroom break and then kill the last boss and problem is solved.

Maybe having the ability to complete all aspects of the dungeon, all 3 paths to every dungeon, with a bigger reward at the end is worth a look?

fortytwo.3485:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

2. Instead of fighting the enemies in a timed event at he door buster, you just circle strafe them or leash aggro them to “kill the clock” since it was only a 100 second timer on the event.

2. I extended the time from 100 seconds to 200 seconds at the Door Buster event. I intended for you to fight those guys, not circle strafe them and aggro leash chain them. I also added 1 additional mob to the encounter at the very middle (a bow dude) to account for you now having twice the time to defeat the waves that come in.

I Can’t express how angry this statement made me.

You Guys designed a dungeon , tested it , found it suitable and released it. We came in saw, and figured out a strat. A good strat , no exploits, no bugs, we made use of our CCs etc. We played by the rules you set.

But as this didn’t agree with your vision you buffed it.

NOW YOU EXPECT US TO THINK OF A WHOLE NEW STRAT!!! Why ??? whats the point. You probably with disagree the new strat too and buff the dungeon again.

Because the “Kiting Event” was working, right? There was no strat, there was skipping mobs by kiting and letting them break. Riiiight. And you thought that was how it was supposed to be? something tells me this isn’t how their testers completed it. It was never meant to be a “kiting event” lol.

Honestly the enemies should spawn outside of the area and walk into the party making them hold the line, with devourer nest spawning in the back behind said enemies forcing you to move forward.

Maybe get rid of all enemies and replace them with a champion charr flamethrower guy and 2 respawning devouer nest?

Because this conversation is occuring in multiple threads at the same time, in the interest of keeping things clean and providing a singular place for feedback, we are diverting all discusison of this topic to this sticky.

Thanks for understanding