Guild Wars 2

wut xD but the whole point of the raids, that makes them time-consuming, is hitting a difficulty wall that you need to plan and think ahead to overcome, if you adjust the difficulty to your personal preferences it misses the point of a raid.
What makes them repeatable is the rewards and the exhilarating effect of overcoming something extremely difficult, neither of which are or should be present in lower difficulty modes.

Nordom.3485:

Lastly spending resources on rebalancing and overhauling preexisting content to cater for a not-so-large portion of the playerbase, especially when said content will have no replayability, is something I don’t see anet doing anytime soon.

There are a lot more non-raider than raider though. If the raiders were a majority you wouldn’t see so many comments on the content drought. Also ,like you said, creating a version of the raids that has no replayability whatsoever would be pointless.

My idea on the rewards/ easy mode would be like this: no achievement progress ( Collection & normal ), reduced weekly magnetite cap (50), one LI / wing instead of /boss and regarding boss rewards : chance at ascended accessory/armor, one guranteed rare and some gold. Defeating the boss also unlocks the accessories at the merchant , but nothing more. Mastery also should be unlocked on first boss kill/Wing clear.

This way every title/mini/skin even AP remains exclusive to current raids while non raiders have reason to complete the easier version weekly, but have incentive to switch to the current mode as soon as they mastered the mechanics in easy mode.

Scipio.3204:

My idea on the rewards/ easy mode would be like this: no achievement progress ( Collection & normal ), reduced weekly magnetite cap (50), one LI / wing instead of /boss and regarding boss rewards : chance at ascended accessory/armor, one guranteed rare and some gold. Defeating the boss also unlocks the accessories at the merchant , but nothing more. Mastery also should be unlocked on first boss kill/Wing clear.

This way every title/mini/skin even AP remains exclusive to current raids while non raiders have reason to complete the easier version weekly, but have incentive to switch to the current mode as soon as they mastered the mechanics in easy mode.

When you give magnitite shards as a reward for easy mode, nothing of the raids would be exclusive anymore, since you can buy everything (skin, mini) with these.

Nordom.3485:

wut xD but the whole point of the raids, that makes them time-consuming, is hitting a difficulty wall that you need to plan and think ahead to overcome, if you adjust the difficulty to your personal preferences it misses the point of a raid.
What makes them repeatable is the rewards and the exhilarating effect of overcoming something extremely difficult, neither of which are or should be present in lower difficulty modes.

Raid design straight from 2006.

So how would an easy mode look like to you people?

On vale guardian would you only require 1-3 people to enter the green circle for it to not explode? Would there be only 1 red orb active at a time and have its movement speed slowed down? Less blue AoE? More time between floor lighting up? Far fewer green circle spawns during the fight? A general damage reduction on all ablities so you can heal through green circle explosions and red orbs? That fight would look like a complete joke.

The only reason raids are good is because of it’s unforgiving nature. It took my guild several hours for every boss to beat it in order to progress and things got easyer the more experienced we became. To me it just seems that people are allergic to improving their gameplay and want handouts.

The entire problem with the lazy selfcentered entitlement crowd is that they think that wherever they stand is the top of the mountain and that everything and everyone should cater to their want. In this mindset a 200kg obese man should be able to compete in the olympics and finish with a medal regardless of his performance because now more people can enjoy being in the olympics. This is a vaste improvement for the olympics because more people can enjoy the olympics now. The fat mans golden medal totally has the same value as the extremely trained athlete that won his golden medal in a higher bracket right? Golden medals don’t suddenly lose its value because fat people get golden medals in lower brackets right?

The point I’m trying to make is that if you don’t want to put any effort into something you shouldn’t expect anything either.

Man, I wish ANet could nerf Underworld after these 7-8 years so that it didn’t take me days to hours to slough this dungeon recently. If anything, I heard they buffed it at one point to prevent farming. Maybe if you ask for compromise enough, it’s not impossible to think that ANet would yield after 3-4 years and give you raid easy mode. Alas, it’s also not impossible to think that they would never produce easy mode to elite content at all!

That said, my idea of story mode with dummy boss is only there to appeal a very specific vocal group which asked for story access without care about raid. I feel pity for them. They are like kids whose candies got taken away from and have no money to buy new candies. Pretty sad. However, the bigger kids who can run to the store to buy candies on their own should encourage themselves to do so. Like if you ask for initiatives to learn raid mechanics, there are plenty of training offers out there. Free of charge. Some trainers are even professional enough to tailor their teaching to their trainees’ capabilities. If you don’t believe me, go see Enko. If you half believe me, go check the guild recruitment session. (Shameless plug: my guild ad is still there. Open recruitment until July 18).
In my opinion, the current raid challenges are fairly easy to learn as a 10-man group (5 noob-5 pro formula). There are no barriers except for mastery requirement, afaik. Each training session is 2-hour long, often with a kill in the end. I encourage casual raiders and new raiders alike to check them out. It only takes 2 hours of your time to learn the encounter but it would take weeks of tuning and testing to release an encounter easy enough to the _majority_’s satisfaction. I see a potential huge time waste right there, and time is money for professionals. That’s something to consider, yes?
On a last note, the last boss Xera’s design was discreetly leaked sometimes in the end of January and the third wing release in June. I assume it takes about 4-5 months to test and tune between internal test team and external player-testers to provide a raid wing which makes the raiding community absolutely happy. Now, can the same teams help make the casual community happy with raiding? Hahaha. Challenge!

Nana.9512:

Scipio.3204:

My idea on the rewards/ easy mode would be like this: no achievement progress ( Collection & normal ), reduced weekly magnetite cap (50), one LI / wing instead of /boss and regarding boss rewards : chance at ascended accessory/armor, one guranteed rare and some gold. Defeating the boss also unlocks the accessories at the merchant , but nothing more. Mastery also should be unlocked on first boss kill/Wing clear.

This way every title/mini/skin even AP remains exclusive to current raids while non raiders have reason to complete the easier version weekly, but have incentive to switch to the current mode as soon as they mastered the mechanics in easy mode.

When you give magnitite shards as a reward for easy mode, nothing of the raids would be exclusive anymore, since you can buy everything (skin, mini) with these.

Except you have to kill the boss to unlock it’s reward at the merchant. In (my) easy mode version you unlock only the accessories. Shard isn’t really that hard to come by, you can repeatedly kill Mcleod a week to farm them, they wouldn’t worth less if you could get some in easy mode

I’d like a simple “hard mode” where downed = dead. Should be very easy to implement.

Nordom.3485:

What makes them repeatable is the rewards and the exhilarating effect of overcoming something extremely difficult

By the time you get to the point where content being repeatable or not starts to matter, you already have it on farm mode and difficulty becomes a nonissue.

Astralporing.1957:

Nordom.3485:

What makes them repeatable is the rewards and the exhilarating effect of overcoming something extremely difficult

By the time you get to the point where content being repeatable or not starts to matter, you already have it on farm mode and difficulty becomes a nonissue.

Then why waste resources making an easy mode if they are already on farm status?

Absurdo.8309:

Then why waste resources making an easy mode if they are already on farm status?

To help more people join raiding? Raids are meant to be challenging endgame, but not some exclusive content only for hardcore guys. That model died long ago, and only anet for some reason forgot about learning curve and increasing difficulty.

Rednik.3809:

Absurdo.8309:

Then why waste resources making an easy mode if they are already on farm status?

To help more people join raiding? Raids are meant to be challenging endgame, but not some exclusive content only for hardcore guys. That model died long ago, and only anet for some reason forgot about learning curve and increasing difficulty.

Because talking to other players is super difficult……

It’s almost like those allegedly exclusive guilds aren’t recruiting or something…..Oh wait reddit/gw2 forums and even in game daily there’s adverts for guilds.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

I really dont think theres much of an argument though, I mean lets be honest, your not actually loosing anything.

- It incentivises new people to raid, it gives them catchup gear to start themselves on that journey which only benefits raiders since it lets more people join raiding.

- The White Mantle Box as I pointed out before is an account “one time only” thing which you would never get a second time, you’d only get it the first time you completed the story mode.

- Story is always and will always be something casual players favor over gameplay, it makes no sense to argue or debate that having exclusive story content is something a raider would even care about as the fundamental value of raiding, is the difficult group bosses, and the awesome loot that comes with it.

TL:DR

Its not a loss for the player after the best loot, theres also nothing wrong with “more” accessability to the content itself that does not in any way compramise the loot table or challenge.

Hell I did point out that by making this story-mode level you can still add boss mechanics, which still lets people that have never raided train and learn the raid itself.

Personally, I cant even see for one second, how thats a bad thing.

Why should anyone doing a filler mode be rewarded with a unique skin that is there to entice you to actually Raid.

There’s a reason why Infantile mode of SAB does not drop skins nor give Bauble Bubbles

TexZero.7910:

Because talking to other players is super difficult……

It’s almost like those allegedly exclusive guilds aren’t recruiting or something…..Oh wait reddit/gw2 forums and even in game daily there’s adverts for guilds.

According to reddit survey, there is like total 40+% players who want to try raiding. If raid teaching is so widely accessible, then why these numbers are so high? It’s not like people have problems to join WvW/PvP/general PvE guilds, but suddenly all of them are too lazy to find a raid one? Why there is so many threads, topics and posts here and on reddit, under literally EVERY dev post?
Your logic is not working here.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Because talking to other players is super difficult……

It’s almost like those allegedly exclusive guilds aren’t recruiting or something…..Oh wait reddit/gw2 forums and even in game daily there’s adverts for guilds.

According to reddit survey, there is like total 40+% players who want to try raiding. If raid teaching is so widely accessible, then why these numbers are so high? It’s not like people have problems to join WvW/PvP/general PvE guilds, but suddenly all of them are too lazy to find a raid one? Why there is so many threads, topics and posts here and on reddit, under literally EVERY dev post?
Your logic is not working here.

Are you one of these players? It would help to get first hand accounts to diagnose the problem.

But I suspect one of the many solutions has already been posted.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Because talking to other players is super difficult……

It’s almost like those allegedly exclusive guilds aren’t recruiting or something…..Oh wait reddit/gw2 forums and even in game daily there’s adverts for guilds.

According to reddit survey, there is like total 40+% players who want to try raiding. If raid teaching is so widely accessible, then why these numbers are so high? It’s not like people have problems to join WvW/PvP/general PvE guilds, but suddenly all of them are too lazy to find a raid one? Why there is so many threads, topics and posts here and on reddit, under literally EVERY dev post?
Your logic is not working here.

Just this past Saturday, TTS ran five training groups for NA timezone. That is over fifty people we trained and threw at VG.
Additionally, we run three to four groups during OCE timezone on Sundays. Which is a different set of thirty to forty people. Not to mention the two or three groups on Wednesday, OCE.
I am confident we are not the only guild doing this.

Something we do that other raid guilds could certainly do is that, to be in the raid guild, and on a static group, you also need to lead a training group at least once or twice a month. This would get loads of people into raiding. Just set the requirements reasonable (like following those builds on the qt forums) and you will have plenty of people and lots of success.

But again, check reddit and these forums, and map chat, for guild recruitment and do some research ahead of time. Being prepared goes a long way to making the fight and experience smoother.

:)

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Because talking to other players is super difficult……

It’s almost like those allegedly exclusive guilds aren’t recruiting or something…..Oh wait reddit/gw2 forums and even in game daily there’s adverts for guilds.

According to reddit survey, there is like total 40+% players who want to try raiding. If raid teaching is so widely accessible, then why these numbers are so high? It’s not like people have problems to join WvW/PvP/general PvE guilds, but suddenly all of them are too lazy to find a raid one? Why there is so many threads, topics and posts here and on reddit, under literally EVERY dev post?
Your logic is not working here.

It’s 100 times easier to complain about the process than actually take an effort to change the problem yourself.

Source, any “Functional Society”.

There’s an old adage “Those who can do, Those who can’t teach”….I think it’s time to update that for the 21st century. “Those who can do; Those who can’t, teach and Those that wont, complain.”

TexZero.7910:

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Because talking to other players is super difficult……

It’s almost like those allegedly exclusive guilds aren’t recruiting or something…..Oh wait reddit/gw2 forums and even in game daily there’s adverts for guilds.

According to reddit survey, there is like total 40+% players who want to try raiding. If raid teaching is so widely accessible, then why these numbers are so high? It’s not like people have problems to join WvW/PvP/general PvE guilds, but suddenly all of them are too lazy to find a raid one? Why there is so many threads, topics and posts here and on reddit, under literally EVERY dev post?
Your logic is not working here.

It’s 100 times easier to complain about the process than actually take an effort to change the problem yourself.

Source, any “Functional Society”.

There’s an old adage “Those who can do, Those who can’t teach”….I think it’s time to update that for the 21st century. “Those who can do; Those who can’t, teach and Those that wont, complain.”

One of the most time tested methods of changing something – or solving a problem – is through civil discourse and conversation. While that may be perceived (and may even be) complaining, it doesn’t change that fact.

Open dialogue and civil discourse are the cornerstones of change. Let the conversation continue – make your points saliently and even passionately – but don’t say that having the conversation – with both sides represented – is a bad thing. It is the whole point of having a forum.

Absurdo.8309:

Why do you need an easy mode? Isn’t more dungeons, fractals, and living world superior?

Sure, those dungeons we’re never going to get are definitely superior to raids we do have. Yeah, right[/sarcasm]

Setz.9675:

That fight would look like a complete joke.

To you, perhaps. But then you would not be the target group for that content.

Setz.9675:

Golden medals don’t suddenly lose its value because fat people get golden medals in lower brackets right?

Sure they don’t. Nor is their value diminished by a fact that you could buy such a medal from any competent goldsmith, if you wanted.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Because talking to other players is super difficult……

It’s almost like those allegedly exclusive guilds aren’t recruiting or something…..Oh wait reddit/gw2 forums and even in game daily there’s adverts for guilds.

According to reddit survey, there is like total 40+% players who want to try raiding. If raid teaching is so widely accessible, then why these numbers are so high? It’s not like people have problems to join WvW/PvP/general PvE guilds, but suddenly all of them are too lazy to find a raid one? Why there is so many threads, topics and posts here and on reddit, under literally EVERY dev post?
Your logic is not working here.

It’s 100 times easier to complain about the process than actually take an effort to change the problem yourself.

Source, any “Functional Society”.

There’s an old adage “Those who can do, Those who can’t teach”….I think it’s time to update that for the 21st century. “Those who can do; Those who can’t, teach and Those that wont, complain.”

One of the most time tested methods of changing something – or solving a problem – is through civil discourse and conversation. While that may be perceived (and may even be) complaining, it doesn’t change that fact.

Open dialogue and civil discourse are the cornerstones of change. Let the conversation continue – make your points saliently and even passionately – but don’t say that having the conversation – with both sides represented – is a bad thing. It is the whole point of having a forum.

You’re right civil discourse with people who put in the effort to change things is a corner stone. Having discourse with someone who has no experience however is akin to going to a restaurant for a second opinion on a medical procedure which is what we have going on here.

Have you not noticed the complaints of similar like minded players on these forums, with no effort from either of them to mobilize something so they can all get what they want at the end of the day ?

I sure haven’t. What i have seen is the most egregious case of pandering to suit their needs when they don’t even know what it is they need or want.

TexZero.7910:

It’s 100 times easier to complain about the process than actually take an effort to change the problem yourself.

Source, any “Functional Society”.

There’s an old adage “Those who can do, Those who can’t teach”….I think it’s time to update that for the 21st century. “Those who can do; Those who can’t, teach and Those that wont, complain.”

So people was able to adapt to anything else in this game and now suddenly they all complaining and refusing to adapt? People not asking for raid nerfs, or raid rewards for free, they asking about something they can learn and become better.
But you for some unknown reason preferring to say “no, you should learn to drive car by jumping in and ride right into highway traffic, because I did it before you”. There is exactly zero reason behind this, only stubbornness and “no, because I say no”.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

It’s 100 times easier to complain about the process than actually take an effort to change the problem yourself.

Source, any “Functional Society”.

There’s an old adage “Those who can do, Those who can’t teach”….I think it’s time to update that for the 21st century. “Those who can do; Those who can’t, teach and Those that wont, complain.”

So people was able to adapt to anything else in this game and now suddenly they all complaining and refusing to adapt? People not asking for raid nerfs, or raid rewards for free, they asking about something they can learn and become better.
But you for some unknown reason preferring to say “no, you should learn to drive car by jumping in and ride right into highway traffic, because I did it before you”. There is exactly zero reason behind this, only stubbornness and “no, because I say no”.

You act like the raids are some sorta supernatural and impossible task…

Seeing as i’ve lead teaching groups personally, i can assure you that as long as you’re not a stubborn person and are willing to actually “learn”, you too can do the raid. Unfortunately, given your post history you seem to think everyone who raids frequently is either toxic or elitist which doesn’t lend itself well to teaching.

As for why this is a bad idea, i’ve already said why. This isn’t a compromise. It’s a give me unique loot for walking through easy mode. Given past incarnations of easy mode elements in this game, you wont ever see this. They may let you experience the lore and environment one day, but you can be sure a sin they wont be giving you unique raid rewards for doing a story mode.

Setz.9675:

In this mindset a 200kg obese man should be able to compete in the olympics and finish with a medal regardless of his performance because now more people can enjoy being in the olympics. This is a vaste improvement for the olympics because more people can enjoy the olympics now. The fat mans golden medal totally has the same value as the extremely trained athlete that won his golden medal in a higher bracket right? Golden medals don’t suddenly lose its value because fat people get golden medals in lower brackets right?

While I’m a supporter of raids getting harder, not easier, this analogy fails on enough levels that it does not serve your argument.

• Olympic athletes are both supremely talented, and work their tails off to get to the pinnacle of their sport. For every gold medal winner, hundreds — if not thousands — of world-class athletes fail. If that’s the bellwether for raids, then the argument that anyone can complete them if they put in the effort fails. Since that argument is one of the most telling in raids-as-is defenses, this is not a good thing.
• Any sport in the Olympics can be and is played at many tiers, where the competitors are less skilled and the training requirements to get competitive are lower. That argues in favor of tiered raid difficulty, not against it.
• An Olympic Gold Medal is coveted because it represents beating the best in the world at that sport. Winning one is recognized as an achievement by the world at large. There is no direct competition with other raiders who can beat your kitten face to face. There is only competition among groups vying for “firsts,” or a self-imposed competition for items where raiders compete with non-raiders, most of whom don’t give a kitten. The prestige of a first means jack outside that small circle.
• Raiders aren’t overcoming other raiders, they’re beating a computer encounter that was designed to be beaten.
• Nationalism plays a large part in the Olympics (or any international sporting competition). People participate vicariously through the athletes who represent their country. No one except maybe other raiders roots for raiders, and those raiders represent no one but themselves.

So, please do argue in favor of raids remaining exclusive, but you might want to find an analogy that does not fall flat. I’m glad you enjoy raids, but putting raid completion on the same level as winning an Olympic medal? Come on.

Wow threads like this every day…..
Raids are good because they’re challenging.
The only people atm who are cut off from raids are people with little time on their hands to find a group or join their guildies, that i can completely understand.
The rest are the usual plebs that want things handed to them, “make asc gear cheaper, make easy mode for raids, make mechanics easier cause im bored to use 2 hands”.

Then everyone comes up with excuses like raid story content. Easy mode raids would have very poor rewards and people would only play them once (for the story), then proceed to forget about them.

In my opinion, I would argue that raids are already at the desired difficulty of “easy.” They are, in a sense, “a hyped up dungeon.” Making them any easier would just be making another dungeon.

Razor.9872:

In my opinion, I would argue that raids are already at the desired difficulty of “easy.” They are, in a sense, “a hyped up dungeon.” Making them any easier would just be making another dungeon.

I’d so love for Anet to return to making dungeons…

i think a big problem is that raids only accept specific builds or most raids do and that is so anti guild wars imo if they made it where all classes were accepted instead of this meta crap we wouldnt need a difficulty setting to me. remember guild wars 2 wasnt supose to be about the trinity but now with raids there is a trinity

Zarbuk.9451:

i think a big problem is that raids only accept specific builds or most raids do and that is so anti guild wars imo if they made it where all classes were accepted instead of this meta crap we wouldnt need a difficulty setting to me. remember guild wars 2 wasnt supose to be about the trinity but now with raids there is a trinity

My main is necro and in the past, when I entered a dungeon with random ppl, I was often asked, if I could switch the profession… So this meta thing is not a raid problem, it has been there since launch.

The raid mechanics require healing and some bosses need a tank, but basicliy every class could tank in GW2, some better with others and the need of a healer finaly made stats with healing power usefull.
Of course there will always be classes, that are ‘better’ for some boss fights, if every class could do the same things with the same efficancy, it would be boring.

You can do raids with non meta builds or class combination ([SC] just killed KC with six guardians, when I remeber right), but for forming pugs it is easier, to go the seemingly most efficient way to kill a boss.

TexZero.7910:

You act like the raids are some sorta supernatural and impossible task…

Seeing as i’ve lead teaching groups personally, i can assure you that as long as you’re not a stubborn person and are willing to actually “learn”, you too can do the raid. Unfortunately, given your post history you seem to think everyone who raids frequently is either toxic or elitist which doesn’t lend itself well to teaching.

As for why this is a bad idea, i’ve already said why. This isn’t a compromise. It’s a give me unique loot for walking through easy mode. Given past incarnations of easy mode elements in this game, you wont ever see this. They may let you experience the lore and environment one day, but you can be sure a sin they wont be giving you unique raid rewards for doing a story mode.

This learning topic was beaten to death already, and reddit had a lot of good compilations about it.
There is not enough learning groups (especially on EU), there is not enough encounters covered by learning groups, and there is still a BIG pug problem in form of LI+killproof demands. So you have problems to learn basic encounters, then you have problems to learn rest of encounters, and then you have problem to find a group even after you learn them. And raiding guild often have same demands as pug groups – LI+exp.
People really need some form of raids to learn on, or this will never end well. Ancient raid model died out everywhere, but for some reason anet decided to resurrect it in one of most unsuitable games for it.

Razor.9872:

In my opinion, I would argue that raids are already at the desired difficulty of “easy.” They are, in a sense, “a hyped up dungeon.” Making them any easier would just be making another dungeon.

This gets brought up sometimes and ignored but it’s mostly true. Some of the fights could definitely support lower difficulty tiers but others like KC would basically have to have the current fight as the easiest level anyway. Almost all the difficulty of the fight is in ballwhacking and if you make it trivial to get 5 stacks then you’ve essentially trivialized the whole fight. Gorseval is in a similar position but with orbs. I don’t mind the idea of difficulty tiers in general but if they were to be created in the future then the average difficulty of the “real” raid would have to be increased a lot and the “easy mode” for some fights could easily be on par with gorseval or KC.

The fact is that you could make any of the fights as easy as you want but unless they’re on the level of a non-TT world boss there will still be complaints because the barriers to entry are caused by players, not by the difficulty of the content. You could have easy mode for every raid tonight but that wouldn’t really get anyone else into raiding unless it is ridiculously easy, because if it’s hard enough that you need to put time in to practicing then people are still going to have expectations for their teammates builds, gear, classes, etc and we’re right back at the same place. And if it is ridiculously easy then what’s even the point? If you’re going to that level then it’s not even a raid anymore, and you might as well just make a LW story mission that covers the lore.

The title of this thread is “Different Raid Difficulty Would Satisfy Most” but honestly the way many people here have described it I think that it would satisfy almost no one. If people aren’t able to get groups for escort, bandit trio, KC, and gors already then I’m not sure how you would expect an easy mode for a matthias-difficulty (or higher) fight would make raids much more accessible overall.

Rednik.3809:

People really need some form of raids to learn on, or this will never end well. Ancient raid model died out everywhere, but for some reason anet decided to resurrect it in one of most unsuitable games for it.

That raid model had geargrind though. Everything you can get in the GW2 raids is either cosmetic or convenience item. This makes it superior compared to other games in my eye. Someone who is doing his first time raiding can be as effective as someone who does it for half a year now.

To come with an example , I’ve led several VG pugs now, sometimes requesting 5-10 LI, sometimes not. One time when I did not, and asked about people’s experience one DH openly said it’s his first time , yet he nailed every mechanic and we had a smooth run with about only 3-4 wipes. And of course I think most pugger had bad experiences with a full group of people who should be experienced.

I just don’t see how can this raid be even compared to other games like wow, where you have to gear yourself up in raid 1 to even have a shot at raid 2 etc

Nana.9512:

Zarbuk.9451:

i think a big problem is that raids only accept specific builds or most raids do and that is so anti guild wars imo if they made it where all classes were accepted instead of this meta crap we wouldnt need a difficulty setting to me. remember guild wars 2 wasnt supose to be about the trinity but now with raids there is a trinity

My main is necro and in the past, when I entered a dungeon with random ppl, I was often asked, if I could switch the profession… So this meta thing is not a raid problem, it has been there since launch.

The raid mechanics require healing and some bosses need a tank, but basicliy every class could tank in GW2, some better with others and the need of a healer finaly made stats with healing power usefull.
Of course there will always be classes, that are ‘better’ for some boss fights, if every class could do the same things with the same efficancy, it would be boring.

You can do raids with non meta builds or class combination ([SC] just killed KC with six guardians, when I remeber right), but for forming pugs it is easier, to go the seemingly most efficient way to kill a boss.

hmm u cant kill raid bosses without a tank and healer in fractals and dungeons u could have all the same class and spec and was doable i highly doubt u could do that in the raid i could be wrong but i dont think so.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

You act like the raids are some sorta supernatural and impossible task…

Seeing as i’ve lead teaching groups personally, i can assure you that as long as you’re not a stubborn person and are willing to actually “learn”, you too can do the raid. Unfortunately, given your post history you seem to think everyone who raids frequently is either toxic or elitist which doesn’t lend itself well to teaching.

As for why this is a bad idea, i’ve already said why. This isn’t a compromise. It’s a give me unique loot for walking through easy mode. Given past incarnations of easy mode elements in this game, you wont ever see this. They may let you experience the lore and environment one day, but you can be sure a sin they wont be giving you unique raid rewards for doing a story mode.

This learning topic was beaten to death already, and reddit had a lot of good compilations about it.
There is not enough learning groups (especially on EU), there is not enough encounters covered by learning groups, and there is still a BIG pug problem in form of LI+killproof demands. So you have problems to learn basic encounters, then you have problems to learn rest of encounters, and then you have problem to find a group even after you learn them. And raiding guild often have same demands as pug groups – LI+exp.
People really need some form of raids to learn on, or this will never end well. Ancient raid model died out everywhere, but for some reason anet decided to resurrect it in one of most unsuitable games for it.

Use it or don’t. You have the choice.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4pe4jy/can_we_get_a_directory_of_guilds_that_teach_raids/

I’m done with the seemingly “impossible to get into raids” argument. Goes back to my point, if you want more teaching guilds get off the forums and build one for the EU community.

Nope. You can do all the raid bosses with all tempests. They can tank, heal, condi, and power dps. Sometimes mixed.
Similarly, you could run all necros. Maybe all of some others, though all mesmers would be hard with their low dps and suboptimal condi. I seem to recall an eight druid sloth run before one of the patches.

The trick is having a group of people that can do these kinds of things. Pugs are never going to. They will take the easiest path to victory.

TexZero.7910:

Use it or don’t. You have the choice.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4pe4jy/can_we_get_a_directory_of_guilds_that_teach_raids/

I’m done with the seemingly “impossible to get into raids” argument. Goes back to my point, if you want more teaching guilds get off the forums and build one for the EU community.

So, how many guilds should be built to teach 40k+ people who want to raid, according to gw2e player numbers and reddit survey percentage?
Again, you are proposing to solve famine problem with a charity soup kitchen. Real problem is bigger and need another solution, from above.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Use it or don’t. You have the choice.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4pe4jy/can_we_get_a_directory_of_guilds_that_teach_raids/

I’m done with the seemingly “impossible to get into raids” argument. Goes back to my point, if you want more teaching guilds get off the forums and build one for the EU community.

So, how many guilds should be built to teach 40k+ people who want to raid, according to gw2e player numbers and reddit survey percentage?
Again, you are proposing to solve famine problem with a charity soup kitchen. Real problem is bigger and need another solution, from above.

Depends on how many of those alleged 40k players are serious about raiding. My estimate would be about 2% so….You’re likely looking at 2400 players so roughly what…5 full guilds Not a big deal.

But you know see above easier to whine and complain that take that first step yourself.

TexZero.7910:

Depends on how many of those alleged 40k players are serious about raiding.

Fun fact – 90+% of players according to gw2e have at least 1 fractal relic. That means that 9/10 of gw2 players tried and successfully did previous endgame PvE content at least once, even on easiest difficulty. For raids that number still remaining on 44%. So 9/10 of players had at least some interest to endgame PvE before, and you think that now this interest somehow magically disappeared?

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Depends on how many of those alleged 40k players are serious about raiding.

Fun fact – 90+% of players according to gw2e have at least 1 fractal relic. That means that 9/10 of gw2 players tried and successfully did previous endgame PvE content at least once, even on easiest difficulty. For raids that number still remaining on 44%. So 9/10 of players had at least some interest to endgame PvE before, and you think that now this interest somehow magically disappeared?

Fun fact. Not everything is for everyone. Not everyone purchased the expansion therefore your attempt to make stats meaningful is really misguided and misplaced.

Additionally since you love to use such broken statistical examples, can you give me the % of people who use the forums and gw2 reddit and gw2e since you’re really good at using whatever stat that matters to you. While your at it can you give me the % that is players that use all 3 mediums so we can have an accurate representation.

But you know, still goes back to what i was saying….easier to sit here and complain than actually take action yourself.

I bet if you went ingame on EU right now, and posted a very general “Wing 1 Learning Run” you’d be able to fill it. Perhaps you could even go as far as to make a guild, or add those people to your friendslist and start you know mingling with that strata that wants to raid.

I actually agree to an extent.
I am married with two children, 1 is 6 years old, and the other is slightly more than 1 year old. every Monday after reset, I felt like it is a job that I must do the raid or it will be hard to pug the rest of the week. so, Monday, after work, raids. depending on the pug team, eg yesterday I got w2, then w1 done under 1.5hr. then w3 fail at kc because of massive lag spikes I experience and I was core bearer (crap) and I did not enjoy it at all. I like to play the game as much as I do but I do not want to make it like a job! I wish I can play it casually like I do with dungeon, fractals and all. cleared all fractals and etc. currently at 29.5k ap done a lot of contents in gw. I said to my husband, once I get this 150 li which isn’t very far away, I will stop playing raids completely or have a break for raids and actually have a good life. so, raids designer, if, you can make raids with different level and still have nice reward, it will bring more numbers in to your plate.
those who already in raids (like me), you are lucky! because if you have started late, good luck getting into raids. :P have to put yourself into others shoes. some people doesn’t have as much luck as you or me .. many players out there.. leech with their team.. all the way. you only need a few good players to be carried / or willing to carry you.

One of the issues that threads like this expose are that there are divergent philosophies about what makes a great game:

• All content is accessible to anyone choosing to play, with the complementary idea that all rewards should be accessible to all.
• All content should require skill, complemented by rewards being locked behind skill, too.

GW2 is already a compromise between those philosophies. Nearly all the content is ‘accessible’ to everyone — the much misunderstood & maligned New Player Experience was ANet making the game more accessible. A small amount of content is inaccessible to certain players. Nearly all rewards are available to everyone, often via both RNG and the TP.

A small amount of content is inaccessible to some players: adventures, JPs, and raids. (Note: I’m using ‘inaccessible’ to include the perception that the mode is unavailable; the reality is more complicated, since ‘technically’ anyone could raid — many people won’t for a variety of reasons.)

The unfortunate thing is that ANet locked the only legendary armor behind the less-accessible content — that’s the first time they’ve locked a fundamental skin type and functionality that way (fractals lock fractal things and raids lock raid masteries, but ascended and legendary were never ‘locked’ before).

I can’t imagine how ANet thought that would end well. At the very least, they could have said that the envoy skin would be raid-only and that (some day), there would be non-raid legendary armor (e.g. wvw, pvp, and pve skins).

tl;dr people aren’t listening to each other in these threads in part because people want the lore and/or the legendary armor and feel that they can’t get it — regardless of whether that’s true or not, ANet hasn’t done a good job of helping people to understand why some rewards are gated and why this particular reward is.

No. No, no, nonononono, no.

Raid was meant to be a challenging content. I’m probably not the only one that stepped up my game by raiding, helping each other guildie out, gaining more stuff, tweaking builds, switching composition as needed, trying new strategies to get better, getting wiped miserably half the time. What’s the point of a dumbed down version? If you give people an easy version, there won’t be a flock of new raiders; you won’t get more people interested in the raid, you’ll just get more people interested in easymode.

The great thing behind GW2 is the panoply of modes you can play in. Dungeons (which already got dumbed down, kitten), fractals (that already have a tier system that i don’t really support) and a lot of different content out there either solo or in group, with a varied difficulty curve.

What’s next? Make WvW easy mode, where you can’t get killed by roamers and siege cost half the supplies? An easy sPvP mode where you get less pips but always go up in ranks? If you feel like raiding is a job and not a game, then it’s not for you. I’m too lazy to quote whoever said it in this thread, but not all content is made for 100% of the population. That’s what make it meaningful to play them, and worthy of existing.

Associating lower content with lower content may work in a casual way, but once you’ve done it a few times, there’s a big portion of players that will not go to higher tier. That’s what’s happening with fractals right now: when you’ve done Molten Furnace 1000 times, you’re not excited to do it with twice the agony damage around, you got bored of it already. I sincerely don’t want that to happen with raids.

oh, I meant, not to make the current easier for all.
I agree to make it come in various difficulty. eg
1) easy mode to allow general group without exp to be able to enter and complete eg – allow resurrecting dead and more forgiving in terms of incoming dps.
2) medium difficulty
3) current mode
4) upstep of current mode
5) insane difficulty EVERY1 in the team must do something to show skills or group wipe.

ofc reward wise scaled up accordingly!

TexZero.7910:

Fun fact. Not everything is for everyone. Not everyone purchased the expansion therefore your attempt to make stats meaningful is really misguided and misplaced.

89,5% of gw2e accounts have at least 1 Airship part. You are trying to deny facts that cannot be denied.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Fun fact. Not everything is for everyone. Not everyone purchased the expansion therefore your attempt to make stats meaningful is really misguided and misplaced.

89,5% of gw2e accounts have at least 1 Airship part. You are trying to deny facts that cannot be denied.

And how many ppl have an efficiency account? Another question would be: what ppl have an efficiency account? Do those who play like 1 or 2 hours a week have one? I don’t think so, but who knows?

Tornupto.2304:

And how many ppl have an efficiency account? Another question would be: what ppl have an efficiency account? Do those who play like 1 or 2 hours a week have one? I don’t think so, but who knows?

100k+ atm, numbers are on their page.

Zarbuk.9451:

Nana.9512:

Zarbuk.9451:

i think a big problem is that raids only accept specific builds or most raids do and that is so anti guild wars imo if they made it where all classes were accepted instead of this meta crap we wouldnt need a difficulty setting to me. remember guild wars 2 wasnt supose to be about the trinity but now with raids there is a trinity

My main is necro and in the past, when I entered a dungeon with random ppl, I was often asked, if I could switch the profession… So this meta thing is not a raid problem, it has been there since launch.

The raid mechanics require healing and some bosses need a tank, but basicliy every class could tank in GW2, some better with others and the need of a healer finaly made stats with healing power usefull.
Of course there will always be classes, that are ‘better’ for some boss fights, if every class could do the same things with the same efficancy, it would be boring.

You can do raids with non meta builds or class combination ([SC] just killed KC with six guardians, when I remeber right), but for forming pugs it is easier, to go the seemingly most efficient way to kill a boss.

hmm u cant kill raid bosses without a tank and healer in fractals and dungeons u could have all the same class and spec and was doable i highly doubt u could do that in the raid i could be wrong but i dont think so.

Most of the raid bosses don’t require a tank, and any class can tank if you want to (most of them don’t even need to change gear for that!).
Some bosses can be done without a dedicated healer (Escort, Trio, even Sabetha if you are good), plus most teams run fully offensive druids, which is also done in high level fractals.
There are many ways to beat raid bosses, the reason people choose certain team comps is because they are the most effective, not because you can’t do it differently.
If raid bosses could be beaten with any class comp & any builds, raids would be just another 1 1 1 to win mode like the rest of the game.

Talindra.4958:

oh, I meant, not to make the current easier for all.
I agree to make it come in various difficulty. eg
1) easy mode to allow general group without exp to be able to enter and complete eg – allow resurrecting dead and more forgiving in terms of incoming dps.
2) medium difficulty
3) current mode
4) upstep of current mode
5) insane difficulty EVERY1 in the team must do something to show skills or group wipe.

ofc reward wise scaled up accordingly!

I completely understood that part. But why is it considered viable to trivialize all content? I’m not even advocating a insane mode neither. I still fail to see the goal of being able to complete a raid on an easy mode, even as a trial run. Learning the mechanics? You’ll find out soon enough what you MUST avoid at all costs, and what’s more forgiving.

It’s not like SAB, which was a kind of adventure, so infantile mode was a fun way for some people that lack jumping skills to enjoy the ride, and kaizo mode for people that like to torture themselves.

Raids consist mainly of fighting encounters with specific tasks/patterns and imminent danger. If you’re not there to fight fully and communicate efficiently with your group, this was not made for you.

I don’t want to deny people enjoying content, but a casual stroll will not bring more people to the raid community., or barely. Players that want easy mode will stay in easy mode. There’s a lot of good guilds and teachers out there right now waiting for people that want to join and improve.

BordeL.1283:

I still fail to see the goal of being able to complete a raid on an easy mode, even as a trial run.

Because you re not the target group this content would be developed for.

Basically, challenge is not the same for everyone. There are people that would be challenged even by the easy mode, just as there are people that are already claiming that current difficulty is faceroll easy.

BordeL.1283:

Players that want easy mode will stay in easy mode.

Even if that’s true, what’s wrong with that?

It’s about accessibility and cohesion with the rest of GW2 endgame.

As long as one piece of the puzzle – that includes story (however slight) – is designed for a smaller subset of the PVE population, there is no way to tell the story and provide a big picture experience that logically fits together.

The reality is raids do not fit well with the original vision of this game. All you have to do is look at early articles, blogs, etc, from the developers to see that even they believed that.

I’m glad raids are here – I’m glad there is challenging content – but if they plan to continue developing raids, they need to fix this underlying problem – which means making them more accessible to players of all kinds, including those not interested in meta builds, who are less skilled and who simply do not want to invest the time raiders do into the minutia of their characters.

This is not a little thing – it is potentially destructive to the GW2 endgame experience, imo. We can only hope they understand this – and that someone there remembers some of those core tenants that made the game so popular at launch – the reason many of us left those raid heavy games to come here (and bring our communities here).

Rednik.3809:

Tornupto.2304:

And how many ppl have an efficiency account? Another question would be: what ppl have an efficiency account? Do those who play like 1 or 2 hours a week have one? I don’t think so, but who knows?

100k+ atm, numbers are on their page.

Oh good so less than 80% of the accounts have an gw2e account and 80% of those have 1 airship part. What a marginally insignificant number.

Thanks stats class!