Guild Wars 2

Why don’t they need to do anything?

The players that don’t dodge on vinewrath will go down or die, im not sure why you are debating this. It’s been a while since i’ve been to silverwastes but I remember a few attacks that the middle lane boss did, Id have to double dodge this massive aoe field, I’d have to stand in a cone in front of him when he phased and if there wasn’t any projectile blocks or reflects up I’d have to change my weaponset to avoid the attack.

The players that inevitably die because they didn’t dodge or are completely avoiding mechanics of the fight aren’t contributing and are still being rewarded for their ‘effort’. Which is a problem as it meant you had to rely on at least a few players to pull their weight and it meant these events were a complete luck roll whether or not you’d get a map that will succeed.

Do you honestly think anet intended for you to never use the dodge button if you didn’t want to?

That’s an interesting point but let me explain why I think it’s not the same situation here.

PVE leveling was dumbed down quite a bit to accommodate the lowest common denominator.

Dungeon/fractal content has stayed relatively the same level of difficulty which is obviously much higher than openworld PVE ever was, even before the leveling/trait changes.

While I agree openworld doesn’t prepare players for teamed PVE content, I don’t believe it should, nor do I believe that locking more ‘meaningful’ rewards behind content that requires more of the ‘fundamental’ aspects of combat will entice scrubs enough to up their game and play better. If anything it will just attract more scrubs to carry.

Obtena.7952:

It’s not really sad if you think about how the game is structured. There is no reason to train players to do that if they don’t want to do content where it’s needed. For instance, a player just doing open world stuff doesn’t need to dodge, look for attack tells and co-ordinate combo fields so to think that kind of player would know that is unreasonable.

The place the game really fails for this kind of thing is storymode dungeons, where these skills should be trained on players because of their introductory nature into more difficult, co-operative PVE content.

And that’s the problem in itself. A game should try to encourage players to master it. Now, whether it requires it or not that’s a different story. But, it should encourage and try to train it’s players to use the resources available. It’s not new for a game to really not accomplish that goal, most games I have played fall into that category. However, some have been successful. I think the fact that they put in a dodge tutorial is evident in itself. If every player understood the basic mechanics the depth of the game could go so much further, but outside a tiny little tutorial they really don’t do much to encourage players. They haven’t put proper time into tutorials and training the player to understand the GREAT mechanics they have built. That leads to a whole lot of people being completely oblivious to such mechanics.

While I don’t think every aspect of the game should require a skill level that’s say capable fo soloing lupi (really not that kittence you understand it) I do think the game could be far greater on it’s level of engaging players if it properly trained players to understand how it works.

Personally all I ask is for 1 more lupi, 1 more mai trin, just one more fun engaging and challenging bit of content, seriously all it would take is one fun thing to get me to buy the expansion. But, I still think that if the game trained it’s players a bit better, tried to actually teacht hem how it works, that you’d see a HUGE increase in player skill levels and that increase in challenge wouldn’t be as dramatic of a “can accomplish” vs “can’t accomplish” gap as it would currently be.

Jerus.4350:

A game should try to encourage players to master it.

I don’t think that’s true. Some people don’t play games to master them, yet enjoy them anyways regardless of how good they are at them. I can tell you the goal of this game isn’t to encourage people to master it, it’s to encourage people to play it and make money. I can see why those two things can be a contradiction for many players. This is exactly why GW2 is designed in this manner.

I’m not against players being prepared for the content they do, especially when they team with others. Game could do that way better, but locking better rewards behind harder content isn’t the answer.

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

A game should try to encourage players to master it.

I don’t think that’s true. Some people don’t play games to master them, yet enjoy them anyways regardless of how good they are at them. I can tell you the goal of this game isn’t to encourage people to master it, it’s to encourage people to play it and make money. I can see why those two things can be a contradiction for many players. This is exactly why GW2 is designed in this manner.

So why did they release a dodge tutorial? Why did games like Zelda and oldschool RPGs in general release official guide books? Why do most games make an attempt to show their players how to use the skills they gave them?

These games do it to promote skill in the game, which allows them to delve further, decreasing the gap between the good and bad to allow them to more easily satisfy the good while still being available to the bad, encompassing a wider audience.

A dodge tutorial has nothing to do with why people play games. Yes, the tutorial is there. No, the game does not force anyone to do it. There is a difference between mastering the game and having the necessary understanding to play. Guidebooks, etc … are just options for players that wish to master the game. They aren’t any more necessary to play it than learning to dodge, stack might to 25, etc… for open world PVE.

I can’t help but feel that you never beat Zelda games, without either mastering the game or utilizing guide books you don’t really pass certain things. Same goes for many games. Games are about learning your tools and utilizing them correctly. While I don’t think that all of GW2 should require the use of all the mechanics, it certainly should teach them to people the best it can. And, right now, it simply doesn’t do that. Again, the game would have a much smaller gap between the good and bad if they properly taught people to utilize the available tools, that would again lead them to be able to create more challenging content that more people could pass.

As long as pressing 1 at world bosses, digging in the dirt or running around in frostgorge is more rewarding than content where you have to carry your weight, i don’t know what we expect.

disclaimer: rant ahead with too many characters, so split into two posts

Jerus.4350:

A game should try to encourage players to master it. … it should encourage and try to train it’s players to use the resources available.

I’m very torn on this. Of course it’s useful to give the players the chance to learn and understand the game’s principles and master its mechanics. On the other side though, there’s only so far a game can go in training its players.

There’s a saying “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks”, and in a way, it applies here, too. “The game” can only teach those who want to learn. Many players in this game though are here not because they want to master the game’s mechanics, but rather because they want to immerse themselves in a fantasy world, and experience that world, rather than worry about its mechanics.

At 20, most people are probably very much into “optimising” their gameplay, the mechanics, and getting the “most” out of their game. But the older you get, the more real life changes you, the more your focus shifts, too. There’s jobs and families that challenge you to the fullest, and your desire to get “the most” out of a video game often takes a backseat. This is not to say that we “oldies” wouldn’t like to be able to master our games, too, and some do, but the majority tends to become realistic and not put as much emphasis at mastering our gaming as we did when we were half as old.

Personally, I’d love to be able to solo Lupi one day, but my reflexes (or possibly my latency, or most likely a combination of both) are so bad that I can’t even evade his kick 9 times out of 10, even if I see it coming every time. Maybe, if I spent every free minute practicing, I could get there one day. But that’s simply not worth it for me these days. 20 years ago, I would’ve love to do this (and did similar things in other games), but not today. Real life, in the form of family, job, and other stuff, just takes too much of my time and energy to devote enough to learn a video game to the max.

I’m already the odd one out among my guildies, many of which are close to my age or even older (some even in their 50s or early 60s). They all love the game for the world and the possibilities they have here, enjoy playing dungeons and fractals together (even if it takes close to an hour to get through one path of CoE), but want to enjoy the game without spending a long time banging their head against “hardcore” barriers that need a lot of learning and training before they get to enjoy the content locked behind it.

My friend list on the other hand is filled with people I enjoy being around because they share my interest in getting down to the mechanics of this game, mastering the dungeons and other content, improving class and character knowledge and understanding. None of these people is anywhere near my age though, in fact, a lot of them aren’t even half my age. And I do notice that compared to them, I’m a slow learner, and often not nearly as tolerant of repeated failures, because my time is too precious to me to fill it with repeated frustration.

One of my guildies, a guy in his early 60, and in retirement already, once said to me: I’ve been through school and work life, I have learned and practiced a lot of things in my life. These days, I’m through with working and practicing, I just want to enjoy myself. There’s a good many people like that playing this game, people that more or less don’t like the game to train them, and don’t like to play games that require a lot of training to enjoy them.

These people are not necessarily bad, they simply are different. They have a different focus, and are willing to invest different things into this game and its community. You won’t find them in other games, not because those games are better at teaching their playerbase, but rather because they don’t have interest in games that require them to be taught to a level they don’t enjoy. They are however very much one of the demographics ANet targets with this game, and as such, have every right participate in it without being “taught” how to master the game’s mechanics.

The game can encourage the players all it wants, there simply are a lot of people that enjoy MMOs that don’t enjoy getting to the bottom of all its mechanics. Any MMO, including this one, is a complex thing, and mastering it takes a lot of time and brain power, something not every one is willing to invest. Personally, I love this game because it allows all different kinds of people to participate, and to invest different levels of “work” in mastering it.

(continued)

There’s days when I want to challenge myself, and enjoy duo-in Arah on less-played classes, or trying to solo one or the other dungeon encounter, and I’m happy to have friends in this game that allow me to do things like that. Other days I get home and just want to relax, not think, not react quickly, just want to do some easy content, some chit chat with guildies, and if one of us goes down, the others res and everything’s fine. I love this game because it allows people of all playstyles to play with each other, and gives me content to play regardless of whether I feel like getting deep down into the mechanics or not.

Some days I carry, some days I get carried. That’s the way it is. Some day I get frustrated crawling through fractals with guildies, but I still do so occasionally, because I value those people for other things. I’m glad the game doesn’t try to “train” them to the point where they simply stop playing.

This game’s player base isn’t bad. It’s diverse, and for very good reasons. It’s not always the way you want it, or even the way I want it, and I think it’s a good thing, because diversity to me is alway preferable to one-way perfect.

I just want to ask, Evapor, why do you care?

Why do you care that someone needed to get carried through Arah, why do you care that people refuse to runk zerk, why do you care that people don’t dodge and don’t want to learn to dodge or to stack might or whatever?

Look, if people wanted to get better at this game, they’d go and read a guide or join [NooB] or ask someone to teach them. In my opinion, you should give up your desire to directly impact the “bad playerbase” and make them good at this game. Instead, do like dozen of the people here do – write guides, document the dungeons and the encounters, post them online and let whoever has interest in it to go and check it out.

I beg to differ on the CS:GO and LoL comparison, as a CS:GO player (Gold Nova 1), veteran CS 1.6 player and Dota 2 player. Games are completely different, you also don’t have a guide in-game (Dota 2 & I assume LoL) telling you how to play with each hero, or how to combine aura items or items with unique attack modifiers, where and how to position yourself depending on your role and class, where to ward, how to last hit, why you have to last hit and so on.

As for CS:GO, game is all about shooting at the end of the day. Yea, you might need to watch a video or two of how to aim your weapon, where to throw grenades, flashbangs and smokes but that’s only if you want to actually improve at it. Of course, none of this is in-game. Pew-pewing your weapon a couple of times would be sufficient.

GW2 players also have a huge amount of resources available (gw2dungeons.com, dulfy.net, metabattle.com) for players who are willing to learn and improve at the end of the day but you don’t see people like Wethospu running around the General Discussions or the “Looking For” board on these forums, asking people “Do you have a moment to talk about meta?” on topics where players and guilds advertise themselves as “casual pvx”, do you?

Anyway, you got my point, I hope. Let the casuals be casuals and let the kazuls be kazuls.

winterchillz.2564:

—
you don’t see people like Wethospu running around the General Discussions or the “Looking For” board on these forums
—

Too busy with real life and well, the guide. Perhaps some day!

You guys seem to be stuck on the word master. I think what Jerus means is it should encourage players to improve and work for a higher level. But it is by no means required for them to master it, just encouraged. They should have the tools and teaching in place for that to not be a completely out of the way venture.

And i agree. I think its ridiculous that they dont properly teach players about combo fields, finishers, CC/defiance, conditions, boons and the various types of active defence. These are basic and integral parts of their combat system. They should be taught to the players. And its not unreasonable to expect very casual open world players to have atleast a basic understanding of how these work.

I think this is one of the biggest mistakes anet has made. They have overlooked it since release and the game suffers immensely from it. Its probably too late to completely solve (too many vet players that are completely ignorant and will skip any tutorials added at this point). But if there is better incentive and teaching in HoT they we can atleast see some improvements.

spoj.9672:

You guys seem to be stuck on the word master. I think what Jerus means is it should encourage players to improve and work for a higher level. But it is by no means required for them to master it, just encouraged. They should have the tools and teaching in place for that to not be a completely out of the way venture.

And i agree. I think its ridiculous that they dont properly teach players about combo fields, finishers, CC/defiance, conditions, boons and the various types of active defence. These are basic and integral parts of their combat system. They should be taught to the players. And its not unreasonable to expect very casual open world players to have atleast a basic understanding of how these work.

I think this is one of the biggest mistakes anet has made. They have overlooked it since release and the game suffers immensely from it.

I know with the NPE when you reach certain levels they do have a information in the level up splash screens regarding certain things (i.e. combo fields) but I’ve no idea what they do as I’ve never clicked one (I already know what a combo field is so why click it?).

I think that part of the problem there is that people don’t look at the splash screen that pops up and go “Oh what’s a combo field? I’ll just click here to find out” they just go “Eh whatever, gimme loot and lemme get my next level”.

Does anyone actually know what they say?

Thats a really lazy and ineffective method of teaching though. They need actual interactive tutorials. They would probably have to be class specific tutorials or use environmental weapons to demonstrate combos.

Its as simple as create a heart/event/instance which asks you to use environmental weapons to do various combos for progress. Kind of like the train with militia heart in queensdale.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

I know with the NPE when you reach certain levels they do have a information in the level up splash screens regarding certain things (i.e. combo fields) but I’ve no idea what they do as I’ve never clicked one (I already know what a combo field is so why click it?).

I think that part of the problem there is that people don’t look at the splash screen that pops up and go “Oh what’s a combo field? I’ll just click here to find out” they just go “Eh whatever, gimme loot and lemme get my next level”.

Does anyone actually know what they say?

I’ve read them all, but unfortunately, the one about combo fields isn’t very informative. I’ve been thinking about “how to teach combo fields”, but have yet to come up with a decent method myself. In a way, it’s a case of rtfm, many people these days think it should work without them reading anything, so they don’t read the level-up information either.

One thing I’d like to see is an in-game encyclopedia of those pop-ups, possibly with links to the appropriate wiki article for further information, but still this only reaches those who are actively looking for knowledge. There are people who don’t ever want to think about that kind of thing, so the only solution there is to not care about it and do your own thing, or try not to play with/near them in the first place.

Anyways goal of my incoming general guide is to hopefully reduce these issues. Though I don’t think anything can solve the issue with people who don’t care.

spoj.9672:

Thats a really lazy and ineffective method of teaching though. They need actual interactive tutorials. They would probably have to be class specific tutorials or use environmental weapons to demonstrate combos.

Not disagreeing but they have at least started putting the info in. When I started I had no idea what a combo field was until I found the wiki and looked it up.

How would you feel about a heart like the training heart in Queensdale where you learn to block (if you take the shield that is)? Just do ones for different mechanics or something.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

spoj.9672:

Thats a really lazy and ineffective method of teaching though. They need actual interactive tutorials. They would probably have to be class specific tutorials or use environmental weapons to demonstrate combos.

Not disagreeing but they have at least started putting the info in. When I started I had no idea what a combo field was until I found the wiki and looked it up.

How would you feel about a heart like the training heart in Queensdale where you learn to block (if you take the shield that is)? Just do ones for different mechanics or something.

I already suggested that. I guess you missed my edit.

Rasimir.6239:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

I know with the NPE when you reach certain levels they do have a information in the level up splash screens regarding certain things (i.e. combo fields) but I’ve no idea what they do as I’ve never clicked one (I already know what a combo field is so why click it?).

I think that part of the problem there is that people don’t look at the splash screen that pops up and go “Oh what’s a combo field? I’ll just click here to find out” they just go “Eh whatever, gimme loot and lemme get my next level”.

Does anyone actually know what they say?

I’ve read them all, but unfortunately, the one about combo fields isn’t very informative. I’ve been thinking about “how to teach combo fields”, but have yet to come up with a decent method myself. In a way, it’s a case of rtfm, many people these days think it should work without them reading anything, so they don’t read the level-up information either.

One thing I’d like to see is an in-game encyclopedia of those pop-ups, possibly with links to the appropriate wiki article for further information, but still this only reaches those who are actively looking for knowledge. There are people who don’t ever want to think about that kind of thing, so the only solution there is to not care about it and do your own thing, or try not to play with/near them in the first place.

Ah ok. Not so great then. I would have hoped it would bring up the wiki page or something.

With regards to the teaching thing I know how to teach/show guild members but teaching strangers I’ve no idea. As pointed out people don’t want to read the level up info.

spoj.9672:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

spoj.9672:

Thats a really lazy and ineffective method of teaching though. They need actual interactive tutorials. They would probably have to be class specific tutorials or use environmental weapons to demonstrate combos.

Not disagreeing but they have at least started putting the info in. When I started I had no idea what a combo field was until I found the wiki and looked it up.

How would you feel about a heart like the training heart in Queensdale where you learn to block (if you take the shield that is)? Just do ones for different mechanics or something.

I already suggested that. I guess you missed my edit.

Yeah sorry my bad saw it just after I’d posted >.<

It definitely would be helpful to add an npc, maybe one tied to dailies—if they can expand them beyond four—that gives a player a better heads up on combos. I didn’t pick up on them until I rolled my guardian and went to the professions>guardian part of the site. I haven’t been playing quite two months, but I felt like and idiot for missing out on linking combos up to this point. The NPE unfortunately seems more geared to treated new players like they’re slow in the head rather than making them better players. Little things like a note about the bear soaking up damage, the stalker stacking vulnerability, etc, for rangers, allowing weapon swapping from level 2 and restoring the need to use weapons to gain their abilities would be some other great roll-backs/revisions.

Unfortunately, many MMOs are creating these issues for themselves. SWTOR has built in a window-licker factory called Kuat Drive Yards that can be played from level 15-60, scales for all levels, requires no specialization in gear, spec, or ability use to get through, and provides the highest time/xp output in the game. Players hit end game with zero idea of how to use their class and it shows.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

spoj.9672:

Thats a really lazy and ineffective method of teaching though. They need actual interactive tutorials. They would probably have to be class specific tutorials or use environmental weapons to demonstrate combos.

Not disagreeing but they have at least started putting the info in. When I started I had no idea what a combo field was until I found the wiki and looked it up.

How would you feel about a heart like the training heart in Queensdale where you learn to block (if you take the shield that is)? Just do ones for different mechanics or something.

They could have taken a much more helpful approach when they redesigned traits.

You go to the warrior trainer, and for your very first trait unlock he lays down a fire field and you need to blast it. For another put down the requested field and the NPC finishes. For some of the higher traits maybe you have to do a self-combo or achieve multiple stacks.

They could tie in all the explanation needed in the npc dialogue and with all the possible combos available you could have a LOT of trait unlocks that didn’t need stupid dead and bugged events to unlock.

At least this way the whole player base gets exposure to combos enough times that they remember a few, so hopefully will come out the other side less likely to just spam light fields when on guard.

The trainer would be an actual trainer then!

@winterchillz I care because it’s the only mmo i’ve like and I continue to enjoy it to this day despite its flaws, it has a combat system with so much potential, the gearing system in both pvp and pve is made so that players can compete at the highest levels if they choose to do so, unlike other mmos where things like gear actually matters in pvp and is usually locked behind a treadmill. I believe anet seen the flaws that plague most mmos and decided to create a game years ahead of its competitors.

Anet stated that they didn’t know what was possible with the combat system when they first created it nor did they have any idea how it would be used. Now they are about to release an expansion that is suppose to be challenging, i’m speculating now the vast majority will qq when they realize the content is too hard for them, just like they have done in the past with things like liadri, gold pavilion, lupi. This could mean one of two things; anet nerfes the content to make it more accessible completely ignoring the issue at hand, the challenging content dies within a few months and you end up with the current mess that is dungeons and fractals.

I can’t be bothered to read through this whole forum again but I don’t remember saying anything about people running or refusing to run zerk builds.

The game – especially the dungeons – lacks unique drops or weapons like most other MMOs or general RPGs have. Everyone can drop everything, there is no difference in finishing Arah or the Faceroll AC lootwise, that’s a joke. And the reason is what Purple Muiku already told: they want to keep most of the special unique skins etc to the cash shop. I mentioned several times that the cash shop hurts the game to a certain extent. This was not the case with GW1 btw.

ProtoGunner.4953:

The game – especially the dungeons – lacks unique drops or weapons like most other MMOs or general RPGs have.

Have you ever considere that many of us play this game precisely because there are multiple avenues to getting pretty much any kind of loot? I’ve spent more time than I care to admit, farming the same instance or same boss day in, day out, in other MMOs because that was the only way to get specific items. In my eyes it’s one of the high points of GW2 that I can really play whatever I feel like and still make (sometimes a lot, sometimes a little) progress towards whatever item I’m currently after.

Spoj you hit the nail on the head. Rasimir, I’m not trying to say that people should all dive into hours of Lupi training or something like that. I simply think that if ANet had say made all newbie zone hearts a bit more informative the game would be better. Players would be better on average and it’d allow a greater depth of content without excluding people because everyone would know the basics.

If every zone outside a city included a few hearts that had say an NPC sitting there telling you “he’s winding up, be ready to dodge… ok, 1, 2, 3 now dodge!” it’d help people learn to dodge. If there was one that analysed your profession and the combo fields available it could do something like “now equip your <insert weapon>, and use <insert skill with field> and now use your <insert skill with finisher>” or something like that. Something that helped teach you combo fields having a NPC guide you through it. Have a caster start a cast and “see there is the signs of magic (red circle) take note of this and when you see it be ready to dodge it, 1, 2, dodge!”

They do have a couple of little training hearts, but quite frankly they suck, there’s little to no guidance and honestly they’re harder to get the right dodge/block on than many enemies in the game, which is silly and I’m sure most people opted to simply not do them.

If they put in training in ways that were fun and informative, not stressful or vague we’d see players skill levels at a much higher level. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not asking that they put in mandatory training regimes or anything, I just think the game could go so much further if it properly taught it’s players how to play. And if it’s done well, it could be a whole lot of fun. I’m sure some of you have played the Call of Duty games, but they have a little training field in them, first level of the game, you run through and shoot the targets that pop up, honestly, one of my favorite levels in each game. Simple but very fun. That’s the kind of thing I think the game needs, simply something that guides you along to learn all your tools, and if done right it’d be like the CoD training fields, so much fun people would just repeat it for enjoyment to try to push themselves to get better times and for perfection. But at the least no one would walk around not knowing about blasts in combo fields, or not understanding that when the enemy does his big windup that you should dodge. Or that a red circle often means either an immediate dodge, or a 1…2…dodge count.

This is what the NPE should have focused on, not reorganizing rewards and locking out skills.

I don’t think tutorials would work. A game should be able to train active players just by playing, not by “studying”.

Usually you improve step by step. GW2 has imho nearly no noticeable steps, which is a problem.
Blasting firefields once won’t increase your dmg a lot. If it would double your dmg you would notice and try to trigger it again.
Blinds, Aegis: they won’t make much difference in a tanky low dps group.

A game should show players when they have done something right, so imho there should be less weak “spam effects” and more targeted strong noticeable effects in GW2.

Rasimir.6239:

…

Some days I carry, some days I get carried. That’s the way it is. Some day I get frustrated crawling through fractals with guildies, but I still do so occasionally, because I value those people for other things. I’m glad the game doesn’t try to “train” them to the point where they simply stop playing.

This game’s player base isn’t bad. It’s diverse, and for very good reasons. It’s not always the way you want it, or even the way I want it, and I think it’s a good thing, because diversity to me is alway preferable to one-way perfect.

Great post overall, I truly hope that people will take the time to read it fully.

I completely agree with you that the game both encourages and supports a diverse playerbase. Precisely because of that, it has to be more forgiving than other games catering to a more hardcore-crowd. As I’ve already suggested in my opening post, understanding to what playerbase a game caters is something I consider essential to be able to fully appreciate it.

Personally, I like doing my “gaming homework”. However, I would not keep playing a game that absolutely forces me to do so at all times in order to be successful. As you explained rather nicely, as you get older, priorities shift. If someone has the time available to solo lupi this, lupi that, lupi with their hands tied behind their back and so on and so forth that’s really great – and I’m not being sarcastic here – I’m fairly sure there are games out there that encourage this kind of dedication, I just don’t believe GW2 is one of them.

For some players – including myself – GW2 is great because it’s a MMO we can afford to play in terms of time-investments and gains. There are others where that’s not possible. You won’t see me go on their forums and complain about it or its playerbase. However, when that happens here, especially in such a negative kind of way, I do feel like pointing out that likely not the game is the problem…

There’s a HUGE difference between teaching players how combo fields work or the basic situation with dodge and training Lupi solos. That’s going pretty far on the exaggeration. Hyperbole is fun and all but really the game could do a lot to make fun teaching tutorials.

There are really only 4 different dodge scenarios. Delayed Red Circles,Immediate red circles, Delayed windups, and tells for immediate dodge responses. The delayed ones are pretty much all the 1…2…dodge count as well. Maybe toss in some double dodge stuff as well.

Have a heart where Logan/Rytlock/Eir or whichever person is in that city is out there doing training with people and you join in having samples of all these different attacks. Having the NPC talking to you and telling you how to do it as it happens.

Follow Canach through a little puzzle blasting his smoke field with some bundle he gives you to teach you about blasts, at the end have some elementalist teach you about different combo fields and let you sample the different ones and different finishers.

If these things were made into fun hearts it wouldn’t even feel like training, it’d simply flow seamlessly while raising the average player’s abilities as they’d have a far better understanding about the mechanics that are available to them.

Jerus.4350:

I can’t help but feel that you never beat Zelda games, without either mastering the game or utilizing guide books you don’t really pass certain things. Same goes for many games. Games are about learning your tools and utilizing them correctly. While I don’t think that all of GW2 should require the use of all the mechanics, it certainly should teach them to people the best it can. And, right now, it simply doesn’t do that. Again, the game would have a much smaller gap between the good and bad if they properly taught people to utilize the available tools, that would again lead them to be able to create more challenging content that more people could pass.

Maybe, but then again, is Zelda the kind of game that appeals to me as a gamer? Probably not. This is the thing this whole discussion is not acknowledging; the people that are ‘bad’ are the targeted people Anet wants playing this game. The proposal here is to change the nature of the game to entice a change in the players. Nice intention, but that’s not how it will play out.

There is no debate that if the game did a better job teaching people those skills, the gap would be smaller. The question here is what makes anyone think the gap should change. I get it, you don’t want to team scrubs. You can propose all the training schemes you want but it’s not going to help unless open world content gets harder. That’s not likely to happen because it changes the flavour of the game for the people Anet wants to appeal to. People are putting the cart before the horse here; the game targets scrubs because scrubs are an underserved part of the market in MMO’s gaming.

They are not underserved, in fact they’re a huge part of every MMO I’ve played. The last one I really got into actually gave a big fat middle finger to their hardcore players to make their less skilled players happy. So can’t agree with you there.

You don’t have to make open world content harder to teach people the concepts of dodging or combo fields. It would surely grind it into them, but it’s not required. Properly teaching them though would give them the tools they need for when they do run into some tougher challenges they don’t just think “well this is dumb” they might actually think “hey maybe we should stealth?” or “lets might up before attacking”, or even “hey he did a windup, we should dodge that!”.

Jerus.4350:

They are not underserved, in fact they’re a huge part of every MMO I’ve played. The last one I really got into actually gave a big fat middle finger to their hardcore players to make their less skilled players happy. So can’t agree with you there.

Well, then we have to agree to disagree. The fact that Anet can make a MMO successful aimed at ‘bad players’ and even your own experience demonstrates thes development companies recognize the vast untapped potential of servicing these players. That’s why they do this … it makes more money than making a game that targets skilled, dedicated players … it’s simply numbers because there is more “Regular Joe with an hour to play” playing than there are dudes ‘mastering’ the game.

Jerus.4350:

You don’t have to make open world content harder to teach people the concepts of dodging or combo fields.

No, but you would need to make open world content harder to get people ‘trained’ to use those things so they are not only knowledgeable, but make those things part of their routine in playing. I think what you and many people don’t recognize is that playing a game for some people is just a routine and if my routine is tripping about killing trash in Orr, you can train me all you want with combo fields, etc… I won’t use them, regardless of the content that decide to do. It’s simply not routine. Training is practice. The guy who don’t care about performance isn’t going to practice unless he’s forced to; and even then playing is a voluntary thing so he might get turned off. That’s not only gaming, it’s sports, it’s playing music, etc…

You are missing the point completely. The idea is to give them that knowledge even if they never have to use it for their regular routine. But they still have it. So they understand the game and what other players are talking about. And they are better prepared if they expand their gameplay. You dont have to drill it into people. You just need to give a basic nudge at the start. People that care will remember it. Some wont and it wont matter to them. But more people will be better educated and people wont have the excuse of the game didnt teach me this.

A good game informs you about everything in it without the need to go to excessive third party sources. GW2 fails in that department in both their combat system and their story telling/lore.

ps. I dont believe there is anything in game which lists all the effects finishers have on each type of field. You have to test them out yourself or go the wiki. Dont you think thats pretty ridiculous?

Having a few hearts that teach you the mechanics doesn’t mean you’ll have to use them, but at least you’ll understand what they are having done it once… if you cared to get map completion.

You’re acting as if I’m suggesting that we force some new tutorial that you have to pass with a certain grade to actually log into the game. No, I’m saying they should add some stuff that helps teach players what their skills do in a way that’s entertaining. Giving them tools to later use. Just like a guy who learns to play football must first learn to catch/block/run. Or baseball to catch/throw/hit. You don’t jump into a game of baseball before you learn to play catch, but even just playing catch is fun and something I think any kid who’s played baseball did for fun as a child. Like Spoj said earlier, train has the wrong connotation but I can’t really think of a correct one. There’s no reason teaching basic mechanics can’t be a fun thing, it just simply needs to teach the tools, just like when teaching a kid to play catch. It doesn’t have to be the “sit in a classroom” or “get screamed at by a drill instructor” type of learning experience, it can be the “lets play a game” type.

Well you posted while I was typing spoj, but couldn’t agree with what you wrote more.

I imagine something like a kind of magic area with a bunch of scholars. In it are little areas devoted to the different types of fields with permanent fields. The heart is to use a finisher in the field. There is a stand with a weapon that has every type of finisher, but it also informs you that you can use your own weapon skills that have finishers on them. Then maybe have a book or a sign at each area listing the effects of the finishers on that field. Could even have another book listing all the skills with fields/finishers for different professions just laying on a table to be read.

Easy heart, could do it pretty mindlessly, but if it peaked your interest all the tools and information you needed would be right there and you’d be able to learn a bit while simply playing the game.

Could maybe have a little jumping puzzle that involved the use of them right outside the area. Go in with an NPC that’s dropping smoke fields to stealth through areas, combo a burning projectile bolt into a target to “light it on fire” triggering the lights to turn on in the area. Blast the lightning fields throughout to keep your swiftness up. Could be a fun little additional game to really master it… and 100% optional.

spoj.9672:

You are missing the point completely. The idea is to give them that knowledge even if they never have to use it for their regular routine. But they still have it. So they understand the game and what other players are talking about. And they are better prepared if they expand their gameplay. You dont have to drill it into people. You just need to give a basic nudge at the start. People that care will remember it. Some wont and it wont matter to them. But more people will be better educated and people wont have the excuse of the game didnt teach me this.

A good game informs you about everything in it without the need to go to excessive third party sources. GW2 fails in that department in both their combat system and their story telling/lore.

I don’t miss the point, I just don’t think that filling a player with knowledge of things he won’t use will make him a better player. The OP is complaining about how bad players are; unless the knowledge they get has a purpose in the content they do, it won’t be part of their routine. This is why I believe that whatever fundamentals are being described as necessary, they need to be a common part of open world, because you need to do open world to do PVE in this game.

spoj.9672:

ps. I dont believe there is anything in game which lists all the effects finishers have on each type of field. You have to test them out yourself or go the wiki. Dont you think thats pretty ridiculous?

Absolutely but that’s not really what the suggestion of this thread is. I’m thinking that knowledge AND content using it needs to be in open world PVE if players are going to perform better when they join teams.

The thread developed into a discussion about teaching players. And we were giving other alternatives unrelated to the OP. I have no idea why you are argueing against us like we are supporting the OP….

Exactly, the OP suggests scoreboards, and while I think they can be a wonderful tool to help people learn and progress their abilities, they often get twisted into something that people use to ridicule one another. That’s not what they are meant to be, but it’s what happens. It’s fun if you use them for competition between people who want to do that, but when they become something negative, it’s bad, and because of that side which pops up far too often, personally I don’t support their introduction.

I do support some tutorial hearts, some little quests and stuff to promote learning the tools you have available as a player.

I will say I do miss leaderboards for me and my friends though, I loved the competitive side of them, we used to do raids/dungeons just to compete with one another that being our driving force for even playing. But again, I don’t support their introduction. I just miss them.

I agree with you OP wholeheartedly, but let´s face it. We are dinosaurs. What you describe is not only the reality of GW2, but the reality and future of the whole industry. Especially western civilization has degenerated in the last two decades to a point where achievements and achievers are already carrying a stigma. Mediocrity and “inclusion” is our religion now. That is the market the industry has to operate in, so don´t hold your breath hoping for better games in the future.

It seems like no games are going for a middle ground. It’s certainly to make content and game play that offers something for all player types, which has more-or-less been done here, and to add rewards that make the harder content worthwhile. I hate items that can only be achieved via the luck of RNG on top of already having to complete harder content, meaning now matter how long you play you might never see them. Further, it sucks to play difficult content and see nothing for it. The system can certainly be improved.

Algreg.3629:

I agree with you OP wholeheartedly, but let´s face it. We are dinosaurs. What you describe is not only the reality of GW2, but the reality and future of the whole industry. Especially western civilization has degenerated in the last two decades to a point where achievements and achievers are already carrying a stigma. Mediocrity and “inclusion” is our religion now. That is the market the industry has to operate in, so don´t hold your breath hoping for better games in the future.

I don’t think you have to tie your argument about video games being dumbed down over the last two decades to some Ayn Randian meta-argument. With the growing gap in income between the rich and the poor, I would say that your real world mediocrity thesis is probably insupportable anyway.

Back to video games, a whole generation of gamers raised on Assassins Creed games where the screen literally says “press X” and then you press X and the enemy dies is the target audience of games. The concept of min/max, having to read boss tells, twitch reactions, etc this is all far, far beyond people who are playing the latest Ubisoft title. Let’s be honest, people buy Arah paths from us. That is not the sign of a skilled playerbase. And the people who buy paths are the hardcore of the unskilled players. The vast majority of players are actually worse and not hardcore enough to consider buying a path, they just look at Arah skins/tokens as some far off unachievable goal.

Obtena.7952:

Evapor.6849:

It’s unreasonable now to expect someone to know the fundamentals of the game? Those mechanics I have listed are the core of the combat system. If I don’t dodge, I will go down or die. If I don’t blast might how am I going to get 25 stacks for the extra damage? If I don’t look at the vinewrath boss phasing I will get instagibbed since I wasn’t standing in the safespot.

Guess I have to repeat myself: a player just doing open world stuff doesn’t need to dodge, look for attack tells and co-ordinate combo fields, so I question how you define your game fundamentals. The situations you are describing aren’t widely applicable to what happens in openworld, so no, it’s not reasonable to expect everyone to know all the things you feel are fundamentals.

The proper place to expose players to those ‘fundamentals’ would be the content it’s needed. Actually, GW2 does that but it could be done better. The entire point of your thread is to suggest a way to ‘train’ players to learn how you think they should play by changing rewards system. I suspect that’s a clever way to say “If you want this loot, you have to do content that forces you to do all these ‘fundamental’ things to get it”.

Actually players need to dodge or use class mechanics in open world. There veterans, champions and world bosses that should serve a tutorial function to these mechanics. However the mentality of those ppl is just to stand still and wait for loot. And when they’re dead (not downed) they wait for others to revive them. This is terrible attitude and those ppl are incapable of learning the game because they ignore everything that is happening on the screen. My favourite example – Golem Mark II world boss. Come on, how is it hard to dodge his knockback? Those people don’t even try. They are being carried in this game by the zerg and when they go into a dungeon there are only cries about ppl expecting them to do sth while they are expected to be carried.

Bottom line is simple: as long as players are rewarded for failure, only a small fraction will learn.

Sadly with the mentality of cramming large number of people into zones (ie Silverwastes), individual skill gets washed out, and some people stop trying. Cap Silverwastes at ~30 people, and suddenly everyone has to turn their brain on. That is one of the reasons why I liked the Marionette – the groups that went in had 5 people per boss.

As far as teaching people, you simply need to lock them into small room with Subject Alpha (path 2 so AEs + burn) and put a 1min survival time countdown. Teaches both condition cleanse and dodging.

tramwajarz.2369:

Obtena.7952:

Evapor.6849:

It’s unreasonable now to expect someone to know the fundamentals of the game? Those mechanics I have listed are the core of the combat system. If I don’t dodge, I will go down or die. If I don’t blast might how am I going to get 25 stacks for the extra damage? If I don’t look at the vinewrath boss phasing I will get instagibbed since I wasn’t standing in the safespot.

Guess I have to repeat myself: a player just doing open world stuff doesn’t need to dodge, look for attack tells and co-ordinate combo fields, so I question how you define your game fundamentals. The situations you are describing aren’t widely applicable to what happens in openworld, so no, it’s not reasonable to expect everyone to know all the things you feel are fundamentals.

The proper place to expose players to those ‘fundamentals’ would be the content it’s needed. Actually, GW2 does that but it could be done better. The entire point of your thread is to suggest a way to ‘train’ players to learn how you think they should play by changing rewards system. I suspect that’s a clever way to say “If you want this loot, you have to do content that forces you to do all these ‘fundamental’ things to get it”.

Actually players need to dodge or use class mechanics in open world. There veterans, champions and world bosses that should serve a tutorial function to these mechanics.

The amount they need to do it is so minimal, it never becomes their routine.

spoj.9672:

The thread developed into a discussion about teaching players. And we were giving other alternatives unrelated to the OP.

Did it? The way I read it, the “teaching” is being limited to stacking swiftness, blasting stealth and might as well as dodging. Apparently, you seem to believe that the playerbase should be measured based on how well they do things applicable for a narrow selection of dungeon paths and fractals. This in a game where the developers have largely ignored dungeon content since launch and only did a minor rework of fractals – instead being focused on open-world encounters, living story, NPE and so on.

I am somewhat baffled that you would judge a playerbase based on such a limited selection of content – especially when a large majority of them doesn’t even plan to regularly participate in it. In my opinion, your (and others) problem are sunk costs: You heavily invested into one aspect (dungeons, fractals) of the game, turns out it’s not the one being actively pushed by the developers. So what you do is you stick to self-imposed challenges such as speed-clears, soloing, etc., which means you get a lot of routine on a narrow selection of content you deem most important. In order to be able to pat each others backs, you then compare yourself to the casuals who run that content like once every blue-moon in comparison. Based on that, everyone is bad but a handful few who should start some kind of crusade to enlighten the ignorant masses. Who exactly do you think you’re kidding?

That aside, on the actual suggestion of putting more “tutorials” in:

If you make them hearts, it will feel enforced, just the way that map completion in WvW did and I suppose we all still remember that kind of drama. There is also no point to just do a handful, when there is a grand total of like 300+ hearts. Just like with most other hearts, you have to keep repeating them throughout the maps if you want to achieve any permanent learning effect. Giving that much priority seems questionable considering where the knowledge actually matters enough.

On the other hand, if you don’t make them “mandatory” (more like JP’s), then they will simply be ignored and nothing has been accomplished. Those players interested in learning will do so regardless if the information is being presented in-game or on some wiki/forum.

How’s the air up there on your pedestal?

If you think blasting swiftness/stealth/might/heals is limited to dungeon content… you’re very very mistaken. It’s a huge reason D/D Ele is so powerful in PVP being able to stack the might up. Also something you’ll see in WvW both in general WvW in the zerg blasting lightning fields for swiftness to keep on the move as well as blasting water and fire fields before a charge or at a regroup. You’ll also see roamers doing things like that, and even in GvG you’ll often have the pick team stealthing up to get a shot in before they’re revealed. And, it’s not just blasts, a leap in a fire field will give the flame aura which gives you might when hit. Leap in water is a heal. Whirl in Light is condi cleanse. Projectile in smoke is blind.

Ohh and not sure if you’ve done Teq lately, but seems like a lot of people know to might up before the burn phases, I sure see a lot of fire fields and blasts going off.

As for dodging… yeah, it’s the number 1 defensive tool in the game, I can’t even understand how you would think that’s limited to dungeon type content.

Helping someone to understand these basic mechanics of the game would improve their play in almost every element of the game. Jumping puzzles and crafting… maybe some RP would be the exclusions.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

spoj.9672:

Thats a really lazy and ineffective method of teaching though. They need actual interactive tutorials. They would probably have to be class specific tutorials or use environmental weapons to demonstrate combos.

Not disagreeing but they have at least started putting the info in. When I started I had no idea what a combo field was until I found the wiki and looked it up.

How would you feel about a heart like the training heart in Queensdale where you learn to block (if you take the shield that is)? Just do ones for different mechanics or something.

That heart was my favorite QD heart when I first started playing. I thought it was awesome that there was this sort of minigame. Though I’m not sure that simply having it as a heart would ensure people do it, since I know many players skip a lot of the hearts.

Satenia.9025:

snip

Yeah, would you look at all these dumb dungeon runners thinking silly things like dodging and swiftness matter outside of highly elite dungeon speedruns! Regular players don’t need to know what dodging or combo fields are, because who even needs to dodge in this game anyway?

Protip: Don’t assume that just because you don’t want to learn the oh-so complicated mechanics behind dodging or combos, doesn’t mean others don’t

Jerus.4350:

How’s the air up there on your pedestal?

If you think blasting swiftness/stealth/might/heals is limited to dungeon content… you’re very very mistaken.

It’s definitely more applicable and to be honest, I can’t think of alot of places where those things are needed in open world PVE other than the odd temple event and the big group stuff like Teq. Frankly, I agree with Satenia …. I don’t see much being proposed here above and beyond what the OP suggested, which I feel is not well thought out to begin with. Filling people’s heads with information they don’t need isn’t much better.