Guild Wars 2

For reasons already elaborated, ranged weapons are almost never ideal in dungeons. This is largely a function of their lower DPS compared to melee setups. The use of ranged weapons is frowned upon by many hardcore dungeon runners, for the aforementioned reason but also due to ranged weapons often carrying less risk in their use.

While I understand that this design of ranged weapons (having lower damage) is intended to keep PvP balanced, I can’t help but feel it’s just incredibly lazy. At least with regards to PvE, I believe it’s perfectly possible to have ranged weapons deal equal damage to melee weapons without automatically being “easier” weapons. Other games/MMOs have successfully done it (granted, they also had a trinity system). As we already know, some bosses do become more dangerous at range (Alphard/Spider queen for example). In addition to designing bosses that have powerful ranged and melee attacks, overhauling aggression mechanics to target players more “intelligently” would go a long way.

I’m not trying to be an apologist for players who are too lazy to learn melee mechanics, but if we’re going to be quite honest, a bearbow ranger is about the same as some zerk warrior who thinks one can “spam 2 to win” then ends up faceplanting because s/he can’t dodge.

@tka:
People stacks because ranging requires at least 5 times the time you need with other tactics.
And since anet made gold per hour so important in this game, people will use the faster tactic Always.

I already suggested that:

Since pve team refuse to balance skills due to the pvp thing and prefer to manage bosses and mobs…

They should require some sort of different roles in encounters…

If bosses required both ranged than melee, the game would become more tactic and solve the issue of stacking leading to faceroll encounters.

Maybe giving different Attacks to bosses really difficult to evade in melee but that gives priority to ranged targets unless there is none…(in that case use it against a melee target).

That would promote both ranged than melee fight and would split the party in 2 leading to more need for support.

Also giving choice to the party on how to split (1-4, 2-3, etc).

Don t tell me that ranged combat is boring like kiting all the time….
It is just because of the lack of any AI/aggro management/script requiring it (for sure is as boring as stacking despite being 90% less efficient).

Just avoid puzzle like encounters :|.

Or going the lazy way they should just use fotm mechanics….that are far less interesting since they require ranged combat OR melee combat but rearely both.

At that point at least mix bosses so each dungeons requires melee AND ranged.

I like the idea that Anet claimed they wanted to run with, with a risk/reward ratio between melee and ranged damage. The problem is that things like stacking in corners and reflects completely trivialize any sort of need for such a system because you can effectively avoid damage altogether by taking advantage of poor AI mechanics.

I honestly can’t think of one mob that isn’t doable with 1 hand on range. Especially spider queen and alphard. Even illusionists become easier on range and thats about the only mob where distance doesn’t matter.

It was Anet’s intention to get people to melee things in the end.

Listen carefully to Caithe in the Aetherblade path of TA. She notes that fighting the Clockheart is easier if up close.

It seems to me that the internal player progression from being able to kite with a ranged weapon to meleeing up close was an intentional part of dungeon design for GW2.

It doesn’t seem easier to range at all. You end up missing reflect, boons, heals, condi removal, and hit only 1 target so it takes 3-5x longer to kill a group which means that (a) you take 3-5x more damage (!!) and (b)your damage mitigation skills/buffs run out before killing a significant % of the mobs.

“I honestly can’t think of one mob that isn’t doable with 1 hand on range. Especially spider queen and alphard.”
Erm. Spider queen from range = wtfpoison insteadeath, no?

Emissary.3792:

Erm. Spider queen from range = wtfpoison insteadeath, no?

Do you know you can simply walk out of the aoes? Like, not even dodge, just walk? No? Ok.

Any time you talk about dungeons…the showoff of proplayers begins.

Walking out/ dodging poison circles is way harder than stacking in a spot.
Same can be said about Subject Alpha…..stacking is so easy that anything else is more difficult….

Neither is impossible…but we shouldn t even debating wich tactic is easier….
proof: everyone stacks

There are RARE cases where meleeing is more efficient and range is easier
In this case, pugs range and friends parties melee.

But in most dungeons melee is both easier and more effective (totally unbalanced).

Except that the Warrior still contributed more in that singular Hundred Blades than the Ranger will throughout the entire fight.

Totally right. Ranging is harder, slower and painful. Should be deleted.

Yeah all those people ranging Colossus, Howling King, Ghost Eater, Adelbern, Belka, Abomination, Tequatl, Melandru, Grenth, Orrian Spiders, Risen Elementalists, Risen Berserkers, Wraithlord, Lupicus, Balthasar, etc. are really stupid, chosing the hard way!

haviz.1340:

Totally right. Ranging is harder, slower and painful. Should be deleted.

I play how I want, thank you very much.
No, wait, no. I want to play how I want, but I don’t want to do it the hard way, I want the easy way while having it how I want, because it would be unfair then. Why should I make an effort to range if it’s easier to melee?
… I shall use the mesmer’s greatsword at point blank range, because it’s easier; I don’t want to exploit the spider queen by stacking and meleeing, though. This will be my solution: it will be my protest against exploits and elitists.

Anicetus.1253:

Yeah all those people ranging Colossus, Howling King, Ghost Eater, Adelbern, Belka, Abomination, Tequatl, Melandru, Grenth, Orrian Spiders, Risen Elementalists, Risen Berserkers, Wraithlord, Lupicus, Balthasar, etc. are really stupid, chosing the hard way!

Maybe range combat gets easier with my newest build?

deSade.9437:

Emissary.3792:

Erm. Spider queen from range = wtfpoison insteadeath, no?

Do you know you can simply walk out of the aoes? Like, not even dodge, just walk? No? Ok.

Omg elitist. People shouldn’t need to move if they don’t want to.

Wethospu.6437:

deSade.9437:

Emissary.3792:

Erm. Spider queen from range = wtfpoison insteadeath, no?

Do you know you can simply walk out of the aoes? Like, not even dodge, just walk? No? Ok.

Omg elitist. People shouldn’t need to move if they don’t want to.

Whatever the guru of GW2 says, I agree and obey.
/proceeds to defiantly stand in spider queen’s aoe

why is it only the spider queen used as an example for these types of threads? oh wait, because they can barely think of anything else.

anyway, i really don’t think it’s mainly the difficulty of the spider queen herself is why people los and stack. It’s plainly just faster since it’s slow and annoying to kill those mini spiders 1 by 1. This way you get rid of everything in 1 shot. Though many people still don’t know how to lure spider queen in 1 shot…. learn to open your eyes people, not just be passive dps and get carried

If spider queen was by herself i think it’s even faster to just surround melee her since her weakness attack won’t cleave everyone thus reducing risk of lower dps through weakness condition because some guardian cant pop aegis or people have a broken dodge button. Thief can even maximize his potential dps if there was only the spider queen due to backstab positioning.

tl;dr this stack los strat is for the mini spiders quickly, not the queen. queen is easy, acid pools arent even a problem unless player seriously has slow reflexes or just some unfortunate snafu

the main problem i have as a ranger, is that range doesn’t help anyone in a group. if you get downed and are still aggroed, teammates have to run to you – the same for the other way around; you can’t contribute much to your team as a ranger when being in 1000+ range, except for a melee-pet buff.

that’s why i find myself in melee combat most of the time in dungeons.

range can only serve if it would have some kind of purpose to the whole team, like a minimum range of some enemies attacks, if someone of the team is at a proper range.
that way, i, as a ranger, can decoy/distract enemys and dodging their ranged attacks, while teammates at melee range can safely swing to their hearts content.

of course, aggro should still remain dynamic.
this would add new tactics, remove some stacking and overall, it would add a new depht to boss battles.

i’ve choosen ranger, because i wanted to battle in range…with bows and stuff, not to blow my horn and swing my 1H sword most of the time when in groups.

Not everyone can melee due to play time/experience. Also take into account that the range abilities of all characters may not be suitable for dungeons but pvp and wvw its the norm. As a warrior, illuisionists, necros, thieves and rangers all keep there distance from me. Having the option of switching to a bow or rifle evens the playing field to some degree. Being that this is a dungeon post, as I got better at this game I transitioned from ranging to melee as most players do. We can’t remove range since its needed for other game types but I do agree with other posts here, dungeons are very linear and require updating.

Bread.7516:

why is it only the spider queen used as an example for these types of threads? oh wait, because they can barely think of anything else.

-Subject Alpha X3
-cof slave driver+last boss
-svanir 1st boss of p1
-Kohler
-SE 1-3
and many many Others.

Stacking makes support too effective….in some fights you can literally turn off your screen and focus on dps rotations if you have a good guardian in your party.

makes ressing extremely easy: 4 players are istantly upon you

Improves DPS so much that you can finish many fights before your utilities goes on cooldowns (see many fight that can be just won by brute force with 0 reaction….with enough dps).

Makes useless the concepts of range (buff/healing/attack/etc etc etc), movement, control….

I am one of the few demanding to have BOTH ranged and Melee useful…not to turn the game in a kite fest

Having more choice is Always better….

people don’t stack slave driver, effigy, aldus stormbringer, tazza/nokk, volkov/molradovich, they just melee them. your list is pretty far off.

ranging slave driver/aldus/nokk/volkov is also definitely MUCH easier than meleeing them (eg slave driver has high damage fast hitting melee cleave attacks, volkov has that burrowing bs…)

LordByron.8369:

Bread.7516:

why is it only the spider queen used as an example for these types of threads? oh wait, because they can barely think of anything else.

-Subject Alpha X3
-cof slave driver+last boss
-svanir 1st boss of p1
-Kohler
-SE 1-3
and many many Others.

- Alpha is easier ranged if you dont stack up, you can just walk out of aoes and you dont get hit by earth spikes or the burn in p1.
-Slave driver murders melee if you dont have enough dps. Effigy is completely afk faceroll at range because his attacks all have limited range. Its pretty faceroll in melee but definately a bit more involved.
- If you’re referring to the troll in hotw p1 then w/e but that guy only has melee attacks so ranged people are completely safe. If your talking about the guy on the stairs, ranging is way easier.
-Kholer murders the entire group if they dont dodge the dagger storm. Also his evade attack hurts quite a lot. Ranging you can just kite him around and just dodge the occasional pull which is alot more visible when you’re not stacked on him.
-SE p1 boss, if you dont dodge you get downed. If you stack in melee the aoe stacks up and insta downs anyone. Ranged and spread out its probably not going to kill anyone so dodge isnt really needed. SE p3 boss spams lava fonts, burning and spawns adds in melee and at times that can be painful. Also his knockdown/knockback auto attacks hurt a lot in melee. No issues ranged.

Hmm so are there any bosses that are easier in melee? doesnt seem like it.

There’s a whole lot of factors involved here and there’s no point treating it simplistically. The design of melee applying more damage than ranged is good. It is inevitable that the best players will have enough skill to apply melee all the time, but it seems as that skill floor is too low at the moment. That skill floor relies too much on class (warriors, one guardian protecting a group) rather than personal skill.

If you want more ranged fights with mobility during the fight then we need wider ranges on player aoe skills to cover moving players and moving enemies. Character skills need to be as effective as corners in controlling enemy movements. Penalties for bad melee need to be harsher. Camera work and targeting need to improve . Etc.

Melee > Range

Once you get the game mechanics it is: Be a “thief wannabe” (meaning all zerk, fastest weapon 130 range power based) or be criticized. It pretty much resolve to that.

The class you play or the build you like is irrelevant. Not like this is a role game after all.

Wait until someone “smart” pulls the card “because in fractal 48…” as it means anything.

spoj.9672:

-Slave driver murders melee if you dont have enough dps. Effigy is completely afk faceroll at range because his attacks all have limited range. Its pretty faceroll in melee but definately a bit more involved.

Effigy actually has a very powerful ranged attack. Not sure how far you/everyone? must stand though.

Really? Only thing that I know can hit you at 1200 is the knockdown thing which you can reflect. But thats pretty easily avoid when standing at 1200 range. :P

Mesket.5728:

Melee > Range

Once you get the game mechanics it is: Be a “thief wannabe” (meaning all zerk, fastest weapon 130 range power based) or be criticized. It pretty much resolve to that.

The class you play or the build you like is irrelevant. Not like this is a role game after all.

Wait until someone “smart” pulls the card “because in fractal 48…” as it means anything.

wut

Wethospu.6437:

spoj.9672:

-Slave driver murders melee if you dont have enough dps. Effigy is completely afk faceroll at range because his attacks all have limited range. Its pretty faceroll in melee but definately a bit more involved.

Effigy actually has a very powerful ranged attack. Not sure how far you/everyone? must stand though.

Only “powerfull” thing I noticed on Effigy is the same as AC Troll. His range attack cast one projectile for each party member; making it deadly if the players “eclipse” with each other. All projectiles casts in the same direction and if someone gets hit it would be receiving kittens together (in the worst case). Other than that, never saw anything range and deadly in Effigy.

spoj.9672:

Really? Only thing that I know can hit you at 1200 is the knockdown thing which you can reflect. But thats pretty easily avoid when standing at 1200 range. :P

Look at 1:05 to see that attack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1jMZei8Tn8

PS: I know it’s painful to watch that video :/

I’d like to see people melee stacking against the AC troll.

:O never seen that before. But it looks like it misses people even when they dont dodge or move and it looks like an uncommon attack even for a full ranged group. So I think its safe to say its still easier to range effigy because you dont have to dodge the burn and you have more time to react to the other attacks.

There are some fights that are impossible to melee. In CM story you fight that golem boss, it does some rocket atacks that cant be reflected and instant down you, then you fight that guard who keeps spamming 100blades every 5 secs that appears to have a 360 degrees cleave and deals a huge amount of damage and bleedings. In SE story you also have a golem boss that makes a red circle around it that you die if you step there for more than 2 secs.

The risk to reward ratio for what you get out of melee vs ranged seems about right throughout the game. All these whiners sound like kittenmade kittens.

If it’s supposed to be a risk/reward tradeoff, it really needs to get it’s act together.

Whatever additional risk you may incur by being closer, it’s undermined by the fact it’s so much easier to rez people. I’ve never felt melee was more dangerous, just more floppy.

I think Mobs would need Finishers before you’d really start to see melee as more genuinely dangerous.

Anicetus.1253:

I’d like to see people melee stacking against the AC troll.

i did it all melee, but you can’t really stack because of what I said in my last post. It will shoot all 5 ground projectiles in the same direction and if only one guy misses that dodge it will be insta-down / dead. If you spread at melee its totally doable.

Mesket.5728:

Anicetus.1253:

I’d like to see people melee stacking against the AC troll.

i did it all melee, but you can’t really stack because of what I said in my last post. It will shoot all 5 ground projectiles in the same direction and if only one guy misses that dodge it will be insta-down / dead. If you spread at melee its totally doable.

Manly, you can’t stack/melee him effectively cause hes spam AoE fear inbetween projectile barrage and bouncing stun.

AndrewSX.3794:

Mesket.5728:

Anicetus.1253:

I’d like to see people melee stacking against the AC troll.

i did it all melee, but you can’t really stack because of what I said in my last post. It will shoot all 5 ground projectiles in the same direction and if only one guy misses that dodge it will be insta-down / dead. If you spread at melee its totally doable.

Manly, you can’t stack/melee him effectively cause hes spam AoE fear inbetween projectile barrage and bouncing stun.

fear is not that big of an issue with aoe condi removal but the stun… oh man that crap is annoying as hell

I’m pretty sure that a grenadier engineer (ranged grenade thrower) can put on show some pretty respectable DPS + conditions + heal allies within range.

I use my engineer in TA paths – it’s awesome.

Anicetus.1253:

I’d like to see people melee stacking against the AC troll.

actually we kinda do, we have a trick to it. not really.

push him onto a wall, stand just outside his circle so he doesnt move around, when he jumps dodge into the wall.

|O*

| = wall
O = troll
* = player facing troll

try it, the wave shouldnt hit u

well it;’s not really "Stacking" more like just melee

edit: ugh this textile formatting =.=

LordByron.8369:

Bread.7516:

why is it only the spider queen used as an example for these types of threads? oh wait, because they can barely think of anything else.

-Subject Alpha X3
-cof slave driver+last boss
-svanir 1st boss of p1
-Kohler
-SE 1-3
and many many Others.

as spoj said, youre just describing melee, not stacking.

I do agree on more choices but fact is the game doesnt allow that flexibility.

well here’s a suggestion off the top of my head.

example:
bearbow, but really just longbow ranger.
Make it into more like a real bow shot, not some rapid firing BS

- make longbow autoatk dps be better than melee dps. to compensate for garbage boon range because tbh who hangs out @ 1200 range?
- make each attack have a 2-3 second cast time with -33% movespeed when “channeling”
(seriously, running sideways while swinging weapons already sickens me).

so i guess the risk here isnt survivability, more like if u dodge or have terrible footing u just took a huge chunk of your dps out while maintaining a high potential dps.

just off the top of my head

spoj.9672:

:O never seen that before. But it looks like it misses people even when they dont dodge or move and it looks like an uncommon attack even for a full ranged group. So I think its safe to say its still easier to range effigy because you dont have to dodge the burn and you have more time to react to the other attacks.

It’s not really used if you have people on close range. I would say Anet added that attack as a fail-safe if people outrange his attacks. I was there once messing around and if I recall correctly he was throwing it every few seconds. It puts an AoE for 20 seconds which you really can’t tank. Probably moving works but to be honest never tried full ranging anything.

I think this thread has gotten a little off topic.

Here’s my simple question: Would you support ranged weapons doing equal DPS to melee weapons if they, on average, had an equal level of risk?

So er… am i the only one to have been in a spider queen pug fail attempt at stacking? It’s like most of my runs. I’m starting to think that i’m the problem…

Ariete.6509:

So er… am i the only one to have been in a spider queen pug fail attempt at stacking? It’s like most of my runs. I’m starting to think that i’m the problem…

Yes, it happens more often when EVERYONE is on a pure dps set and build and the party don’t know each other… switch to “support” utilities (what ever it has condi removal or group heals) and its cake again.

Here’s my simple question: Would you support ranged weapons doing equal DPS to melee weapons if they, on average, had an equal level of risk?

Yes.

I kind of think there’s two ways you can treat Melee vs Ranged; risk/reward or rock/paper/scissors. And I like rock/paper/scissors waaaayyyy more than risk/reward, personally.

In this game bosses have a subset of AI dedicated to treating ranged players and melee players differently. I don’t know what they were going for with that, but it’s kind of ended up making certain fight ‘melee fights’ (clockheart) and certain fights ‘ranged fights’ (melrona). Although, obviously, disproportionately the former for a variety of other non-boss mechanics reasons like ease of rezzing.

An AI behaviorset like that seems to fit pretty neatly with the idea of rock/paper/scissors, and is pretty counter-intuitive to risk/reward. (which should have a consistent relationship between range and risk throughout the entire game. melee’s risk being questionable in some fights is sort of unacceptable).

So boss design sort of seems to make melee and ranged pan out like rock/paper/scissors strategically…..but ranged attacks still suffer from risk/reward balancing numerically. Which is so not working out.

I know why you’d want risk/reward for PvP, and I can see the allure of using bosses to encourage rock/paper/scissors to spice up PvE. But, man, just pick one and stick with it. Both at the same time is just brutal to Ranged.

/edit: eh, I could’ve explained that better.

Mesket.5728:

Ariete.6509:

So er… am i the only one to have been in a spider queen pug fail attempt at stacking? It’s like most of my runs. I’m starting to think that i’m the problem…

Yes, it happens more often when EVERYONE is on a pure dps set and build and the party don’t know each other… switch to “support” utilities (what ever it has condi removal or group heals) and its cake again.

Pretty much the opposite of this. You usually die if the group has low dps. If everyone is high dps, the spider dies very quickly, like most everything in the game. I’ve only ever seen wipes in pugs with multiple below 80 players.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Here’s my simple question: Would you support ranged weapons doing equal DPS to melee weapons if they, on average, had an equal level of risk?

Yes.

I kind of think there’s two ways you can treat Melee vs Ranged; risk/reward or rock/paper/scissors. And I like rock/paper/scissors waaaayyyy more than risk/reward, personally.

In this game bosses have a subset of AI dedicated to treating ranged players and melee players differently. I don’t know what they were going for with that, but it’s kind of ended up making certain fight ‘melee fights’ (clockheart) and certain fights ‘ranged fights’ (melrona). Although, obviously, disproportionately the former for a variety of other non-boss mechanics reasons like ease of rezzing.

An AI behaviorset like that seems to fit pretty neatly with the idea of rock/paper/scissors (in which you treat your weapons like tools you change to suit the fight), and is pretty counter-intuitive to risk/reward (which should have a consistent relationship between range and risk throughout the entire game. melee’s risk being questionable in some fights is sort of unacceptable).

So boss design sort of seems to make melee and ranged pan out like rock/paper/scissors strategically…..but ranged attacks still suffer from risk/reward balancing numerically. Which is so not working out.

I know why you’d want risk/reward for PvP, and I can see the allure of using bosses to encourage rock/paper/scissors to spice up PvE. But, man, just pick one and stick with it. Both at the same time is just brutal to Ranged.

/edit: eh, I could’ve explained that better.

Malrona actually owns herself if you stack/reflect/melee deeeepz her to death.

Really?
I had no idea Reflection worked on her. Dear god, like I needed to add yet another thing to the ‘melee is not more dangerous than ranged, and ranged is totally borked’ pile.

/sigh.
Let me see if I can’t find another fight that shows the ability of the AI to get people to play rock/paper/scissors.

Frost, maybe?
I think if Ranged and Melee were equal, Frost would do a good job of making you play keep away.

Pretty much every fight in the game can be done melee, and is faster melee assuming the party can live (risk vs reward). The only boss that comes to mind that you can’t melee legit is the ooze in arah p1.

In the case of Malrona, melee is more dangerous. If one person is melee and everyone else is range, the only person in danger is the person in melee. If the group is smart however, they can use the poison=extra damage mechanic then reflect and she’s dead in 5 seconds. There is still the danger in not knowing which attack she’ll open with. That tactic could be done with range as well, but groups that generally know about said mechanics are groups that full melee.

laharl.8435:

Pretty much every fight in the game can be done melee, and is faster melee assuming the party can live (risk vs reward). The only boss that comes to mind that you can’t melee legit is the ooze in arah p1.

You can melee the ooze if you dodge/whirlwind away after his fifth bounce. He’ll bounce in place and won’t charge towards you. However if you dodge before his fifth bounce, he’ll charge towards you when he’s bouncing.

TheKillerAngel.3596:

I think this thread has gotten a little off topic.

Here’s my simple question: Would you support ranged weapons doing equal DPS to melee weapons if they, on average, had an equal level of risk?

I suppose I would agree with such a notion, however like I said I’d rather just have their original intention of melee simply being riskier than ranged combat. In order for this to actually work, however, Anet needs to address the issues that currently cripple the difficulty of PvE content in this game to begin with.