Guild Wars 2

I believe it would be apropriate for anet to release some numbers about how big is the raiding community is if the raiding community is growing or if its a big or small part of the total playerbase. The reason behind that is that it will clear the picture imho as to how accesible raids are or not. I find this to be most helpful for the game because it will make the player base see whats going on, if the raiding community is really low then the raiding guilds will see that and try to create windows for players to access raids simply because theey want raids grow more and more raids to be release as more ppl will ask for it. If it is high and growing it will help ppl who claim raiding is inaccessible for the most tand only that a small part of the community get to enjoy “the perfect lore and stories” that raids have and it will make the see that raid ARE accessible and maybe give it one more shot.

That should be easy to speculate, there must be some way to figure out how many DPS meter downloads have occurred since add on sites like Curse show the total downloads.

From what I understand the only players that care about these programs are raiders.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

That should be easy to speculate, there must be some way to figure out how many DPS meter downloads have occurred since add on sites like Curse show the total downloads.

From what I understand the only players that care about these programs are raiders.

ill tell you why i think thats wrong first a player can download multiple meters since not all do the same or look the same and on top of that curse iirc has a flat number what we want is a % since we dont know the total amount of players that play gw2 to compair.

Whether it’s large, small, growing, or not growing; really has nothing to do with its accessibility. If players want to get into raids then they can do what a lot of others did and join up with others like them with the goal to succeed. quite. Number of raiders are already making it easier by offering training runs.

Ayrilana.1396:

Whether it’s large, small, growing, or not growing; really has nothing to do with its accessibility. If players want to get into raids then they can do what a lot of others did and join up with others like them with the goal to succeed. quite. Number of raiders are already making it easier by offering training runs.

Im not saying thats not what they should do and that raiders arent making it easier im saying if the players outside knew that a large amount of the player base raid they would be more open minded about it and if the opposite then more raiders would try to get ppl into raiding or even consider the easy mode idea.

The issue with releasing numbers is that the community, especially the non-raiding one, cant handle it. Suddenly everyone is an expert business analyst and will fiercly argue that it is waste of money for whatever reason.

They have said that the amount of raiders is higher than what you normally see in an mmo and I think thats fine enough information.

Chris McSwag.4683:

The issue with releasing numbers is that the community, especially the non-raiding one, cant handle it. Suddenly everyone is an expert business analyst and will fiercly argue that it is waste of money for whatever reason.

They have said that the amount of raiders is higher than what you normally see in an mmo and I think thats fine enough information.

true, i agree with most of it think is the majority of posts i see on forums go like this “they lock lore behind walls the majority cant pass” and i like to see how big that “majority” is.

Chris McSwag.4683:

The issue with releasing numbers is that the community, especially the non-raiding one, cant handle it. Suddenly everyone is an expert business analyst and will fiercly argue that it is waste of money for whatever reason.

They have said that the amount of raiders is higher than what you normally see in an mmo and I think thats fine enough information.

I know what ‘they say’ how ever thinking about this logically when examining the Elephant in the MMO room that is WoW you have to imagine with Raid Finder their percentage easily dwarves GW2 percentage when talking about Raiders (remember I’m talking about percentages not populations).

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Chris McSwag.4683:

The issue with releasing numbers is that the community, especially the non-raiding one, cant handle it. Suddenly everyone is an expert business analyst and will fiercly argue that it is waste of money for whatever reason.

They have said that the amount of raiders is higher than what you normally see in an mmo and I think thats fine enough information.

I know what ‘they say’ how ever thinking about this logically when examining the Elephant in the MMO room that is WoW you have to imagine with Raid Finder their percentage easily dwarves GW2 percentage when talking about Raiders (remember I’m talking about percentages not populations).

True but argueably raidfinder was one of the worst things they added. Its funny really when i started playing wow in wod i was told not to even step in lfr these ppl dont consider ppl who run lfr raiders, also from what gathered back then lfr kinda killed the community wow had back in the day. Yes i know the wow % of raiders will be higher compaired to gw2’s raiding scene but wow end game is basically raids.

zealex.9410:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Chris McSwag.4683:

The issue with releasing numbers is that the community, especially the non-raiding one, cant handle it. Suddenly everyone is an expert business analyst and will fiercly argue that it is waste of money for whatever reason.

They have said that the amount of raiders is higher than what you normally see in an mmo and I think thats fine enough information.

I know what ‘they say’ how ever thinking about this logically when examining the Elephant in the MMO room that is WoW you have to imagine with Raid Finder their percentage easily dwarves GW2 percentage when talking about Raiders (remember I’m talking about percentages not populations).

True but argueably raidfinder was one of the worst things they added. Its funny really when i started playing wow in wod i was told not to even step in lfr these ppl dont consider ppl who run lfr raiders, also from what gathered back then lfr kinda killed the community wow had back in the day. Yes i know the wow % of raiders will be higher compaired to gw2’s raiding scene but wow end game is basically raids.

Wouldn’t that make ANets statement an Alternative Fact?

Oldirtbeard.9834:

zealex.9410:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Chris McSwag.4683:

The issue with releasing numbers is that the community, especially the non-raiding one, cant handle it. Suddenly everyone is an expert business analyst and will fiercly argue that it is waste of money for whatever reason.

They have said that the amount of raiders is higher than what you normally see in an mmo and I think thats fine enough information.

I know what ‘they say’ how ever thinking about this logically when examining the Elephant in the MMO room that is WoW you have to imagine with Raid Finder their percentage easily dwarves GW2 percentage when talking about Raiders (remember I’m talking about percentages not populations).

True but argueably raidfinder was one of the worst things they added. Its funny really when i started playing wow in wod i was told not to even step in lfr these ppl dont consider ppl who run lfr raiders, also from what gathered back then lfr kinda killed the community wow had back in the day. Yes i know the wow % of raiders will be higher compaired to gw2’s raiding scene but wow end game is basically raids.

Wouldn’t that make ANets statement an Alternative Fact?

what do you mean by that?

zealex.9410:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

zealex.9410:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Chris McSwag.4683:

The issue with releasing numbers is that the community, especially the non-raiding one, cant handle it. Suddenly everyone is an expert business analyst and will fiercly argue that it is waste of money for whatever reason.

They have said that the amount of raiders is higher than what you normally see in an mmo and I think thats fine enough information.

I know what ‘they say’ how ever thinking about this logically when examining the Elephant in the MMO room that is WoW you have to imagine with Raid Finder their percentage easily dwarves GW2 percentage when talking about Raiders (remember I’m talking about percentages not populations).

True but argueably raidfinder was one of the worst things they added. Its funny really when i started playing wow in wod i was told not to even step in lfr these ppl dont consider ppl who run lfr raiders, also from what gathered back then lfr kinda killed the community wow had back in the day. Yes i know the wow % of raiders will be higher compaired to gw2’s raiding scene but wow end game is basically raids.

Wouldn’t that make ANets statement an Alternative Fact?

what do you mean by that?

ANet claims that more of their population Raids than typical MMOs, if Raidfinder in WoW, and lower tier in FF14 make Raids more accessible then wouldn’t those games have a higher percentage and not GW2 as ANet claims?

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Chris McSwag.4683:

The issue with releasing numbers is that the community, especially the non-raiding one, cant handle it. Suddenly everyone is an expert business analyst and will fiercly argue that it is waste of money for whatever reason.

They have said that the amount of raiders is higher than what you normally see in an mmo and I think thats fine enough information.

I know what ‘they say’ how ever thinking about this logically when examining the Elephant in the MMO room that is WoW you have to imagine with Raid Finder their percentage easily dwarves GW2 percentage when talking about Raiders (remember I’m talking about percentages not populations).

The raid population without LFR is pretty low. WoW has raids as main content, that drives the gear thread mill and progresses the main story of the expansions.
They need LFR so people can experience the main story.
So unless you want to turn GW2 into a raid centric game, you shouldn’t compare those two.

ANet claims that more of their population Raids than typical MMOs, if Raidfinder in WoW, and lower tier in FF14 make Raids more accessible then wouldn’t those games have a higher percentage and not GW2 as ANet claims?

Both games are raid centric and progress the story with raids. Nobody considers LFR-players as raiders, as the social aspect is completely non-existent.

Both finders require a minimum item level, that makes them less accessible than GW2 raids, which you can enter whenever you want.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

That should be easy to speculate, there must be some way to figure out how many DPS meter downloads have occurred since add on sites like Curse show the total downloads.

There is no number of downloads about the dps meters but even if there was it would be a meaningless number. Knowing how many players are raiding alone isn’t enough, when you have no idea how many players are actively playing total.

1000 raiders out of 10000 active players is vastly different to 1000 raiders out of 1000000. And I doubt Anet has any desire to release active player numbers, not to mention it will be extremely hard to count active players in a game like guild wars 2.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Wouldn’t that make ANets statement an Alternative Fact?

Only if that statement was clear, and meant what people say it meant.
In truth, Anet did mention that the numbers are higher than in some mmos they have seen, but without specifying what mmos they have meant (definitely not WoW), and what methodology they used (as any person with even casual knowledge of statistics can tell you, the same numbers can mean many, even directly opposite things, depending on how they are counted and compared).

Besides, the numbers they were speaking of were from the early days of raids, so likely included all those players that tried once and never tried again (not to mention, it was during content drought, when raids were the only new shiny around).

Hard to say how that would compare to numbers today.

Good luck with that. Even World of Warcraft isn’t releasing the figures for its active playerbase anymore. All people do with this “information” is use it to justify and validate whatever biased opinion they were already predisposed to. I mean… look how people still hold up the “manifesto” video and say, “SEE! SEE! THEY LIED!” even though it’s been like six or seven years and most of the people in that video don’t even work there anymore.

Don’t hold your breath on this one!

Nokaru.7831:

Good luck with that. Even World of Warcraft isn’t releasing the figures for its active playerbase anymore. All people do with this “information” is use it to justify and validate whatever biased opinion they were already predisposed to. I mean… look how people still hold up the “manifesto” video and say, “SEE! SEE! THEY LIED!” even though it’s been like six or seven years and most of the people in that video don’t even work there anymore.

Don’t hold your breath on this one!

I cant scroll down the comments of that video without getting depressed, i liked it i wanted it but i knew it couldnt be done but kitten these ppl act like anet stole the joy from their lives.

Miellyn.6847:

The raid population without LFR is pretty low. WoW has raids as main content, that drives the gear thread mill and progresses the main story of the expansions.
They need LFR so people can experience the main story.
So unless you want to turn GW2 into a raid centric game, you shouldn’t compare those

Both games are raid centric and progress the story with raids. Nobody considers LFR-players as raiders, as the social aspect is completely non-existent.

Both finders require a minimum item level, that makes them less accessible than GW2 raids, which you can enter whenever you want.

That isnt totaly accurate lfr wasnt made for ppl to experience the story simply it was made for ppl that dont have time to play to have an endgame…

the requirements of the lfr does not make it less aceesible to players than in gw2 in lfr you can join once you have se gear from dungeons and then its a matter of te usually a week or so to have the ilvl to join the automated q

If it worked the same in gw2 right after you get exotics from dungeons you should be able to enter raids which is far from the truth. You should have an ascented set ready at least since it will make it easier for you to join and then you gotta find a group then join whereas again lfr is automated so no gw2 raiding is harder than the lfr.

zealex.9410:

Miellyn.6847:

The raid population without LFR is pretty low. WoW has raids as main content, that drives the gear thread mill and progresses the main story of the expansions.
They need LFR so people can experience the main story.
So unless you want to turn GW2 into a raid centric game, you shouldn’t compare those

Both games are raid centric and progress the story with raids. Nobody considers LFR-players as raiders, as the social aspect is completely non-existent.

Both finders require a minimum item level, that makes them less accessible than GW2 raids, which you can enter whenever you want.

That isnt totaly accurate lfr wasnt made for ppl to experience the story simply it was made for ppl that dont have time to play to have an endgame…

the requirements of the lfr does not make it less accesible to players than in gw2 in lfr you can join once you have aquired gear from dungeons and then its a matter of time usually a week or so to have the ilvl to join the automated queue

If it worked the same in gw2 right after you get exotics from dungeons you should be able to enter raids which is far from the truth. You should have an ascented set ready at least since it will make it easier for you to join and then you gotta find a group then join whereas again lfr is automated so no gw2 raiding is harder than the lfr.

maddoctor.2738:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

That should be easy to speculate, there must be some way to figure out how many DPS meter downloads have occurred since add on sites like Curse show the total downloads.

There is no number of downloads about the dps meters but even if there was it would be a meaningless number. Knowing how many players are raiding alone isn’t enough, when you have no idea how many players are actively playing total.

1000 raiders out of 10000 active players is vastly different to 1000 raiders out of 1000000. And I doubt Anet has any desire to release active player numbers, not to mention it will be extremely hard to count active players in a game like guild wars 2.

flat number were never the answer a % would be the way to go

Oldirtbeard.9834:

zealex.9410:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

zealex.9410:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Chris McSwag.4683:

The issue with releasing numbers is that the community, especially the non-raiding one, cant handle it. Suddenly everyone is an expert business analyst and will fiercly argue that it is waste of money for whatever reason.

They have said that the amount of raiders is higher than what you normally see in an mmo and I think thats fine enough information.

I know what ‘they say’ how ever thinking about this logically when examining the Elephant in the MMO room that is WoW you have to imagine with Raid Finder their percentage easily dwarves GW2 percentage when talking about Raiders (remember I’m talking about percentages not populations).

True but argueably raidfinder was one of the worst things they added. Its funny really when i started playing wow in wod i was told not to even step in lfr these ppl dont consider ppl who run lfr raiders, also from what gathered back then lfr kinda killed the community wow had back in the day. Yes i know the wow % of raiders will be higher compaired to gw2’s raiding scene but wow end game is basically raids.

Wouldn’t that make ANets statement an Alternative Fact?

what do you mean by that?

ANet claims that more of their population Raids than typical MMOs, if Raidfinder in WoW, and lower tier in FF14 make Raids more accessible then wouldn’t those games have a higher percentage and not GW2 as ANet claims?

yeah but this isnt a matter of gw2 having more or less raiders than wow or ff14 its a matter of if gw2 raiding population is high enough that it suggest raiding is accesible or its low and so the money clould be spend somewhere else (which i dont want)

zealex.9410:

Miellyn.6847:

The raid population without LFR is pretty low. WoW has raids as main content, that drives the gear thread mill and progresses the main story of the expansions.
They need LFR so people can experience the main story.
So unless you want to turn GW2 into a raid centric game, you shouldn’t compare those

Both games are raid centric and progress the story with raids. Nobody considers LFR-players as raiders, as the social aspect is completely non-existent.

Both finders require a minimum item level, that makes them less accessible than GW2 raids, which you can enter whenever you want.

That isnt totaly accurate lfr wasnt made for ppl to experience the story simply it was made for ppl that dont have time to play to have an endgame…

the requirements of the lfr does not make it less aceesible to players than in gw2 in lfr you can join once you have se gear from dungeons and then its a matter of te usually a week or so to have the ilvl to join the automated q

If it worked the same in gw2 right after you get exotics from dungeons you should be able to enter raids which is far from the truth. You should have an ascented set ready at least since it will make it easier for you to join and then you gotta find a group then join whereas again lfr is automated so no gw2 raiding is harder than the lfr.

And players that don’t have that much time in GW2 can play open world/WvW/PvP/fractals for endgame. Unlike WoW it is not limited to raids.

How exactly is exotic equipment stopping you from finding a group of like minded people and playing the raids with them?

Automated systems should be avoided as much as possible. Group content is still about social interaction and those systems bypass it completly. They should have never been introduced outside of PvP.

Miellyn.6847:

zealex.9410:

Miellyn.6847:

The raid population without LFR is pretty low. WoW has raids as main content, that drives the gear thread mill and progresses the main story of the expansions.
They need LFR so people can experience the main story.
So unless you want to turn GW2 into a raid centric game, you shouldn’t compare those

Both games are raid centric and progress the story with raids. Nobody considers LFR-players as raiders, as the social aspect is completely non-existent.

Both finders require a minimum item level, that makes them less accessible than GW2 raids, which you can enter whenever you want.

That isnt totaly accurate lfr wasnt made for ppl to experience the story simply it was made for ppl that dont have time to play to have an endgame…

the requirements of the lfr does not make it less aceesible to players than in gw2 in lfr you can join once you have se gear from dungeons and then its a matter of te usually a week or so to have the ilvl to join the automated q

If it worked the same in gw2 right after you get exotics from dungeons you should be able to enter raids which is far from the truth. You should have an ascented set ready at least since it will make it easier for you to join and then you gotta find a group then join whereas again lfr is automated so no gw2 raiding is harder than the lfr.

And players that don’t have that much time in GW2 can play open world/WvW/PvP/fractals for endgame. Unlike WoW it is not limited to raids.

How exactly is exotic equipment stopping you from finding a group of like minded people and playing the raids with them?

Automated systems should be avoided as much as possible. Group content is still about social interaction and those systems bypass it completly. They should have never been introduced outside of PvP.

Well thankfully they’re only in fractals and dungeons you could argue that raids have the same lf system but the time it takes to find a group ans to complete the encounters in that time u usually get to socialise with others in the group.
Also who has a better chance to find a group someone withasc or someone with exotics?

zealex.9410:

maddoctor.2738:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

That should be easy to speculate, there must be some way to figure out how many DPS meter downloads have occurred since add on sites like Curse show the total downloads.

There is no number of downloads about the dps meters but even if there was it would be a meaningless number. Knowing how many players are raiding alone isn’t enough, when you have no idea how many players are actively playing total.

1000 raiders out of 10000 active players is vastly different to 1000 raiders out of 1000000. And I doubt Anet has any desire to release active player numbers, not to mention it will be extremely hard to count active players in a game like guild wars 2.

flat number were never the answer a % would be the way to go

That’s true, a percentage would be nice. Before they give a percentage they need to find out the active population though, without telling us if they don’t want to.
How do we count the active population of Guild Wars 2? We can’t count subs.
And second, how do we count the active population of Raids? Those who have LI? Those who have Magnetite Shards? Those who killed a boss in the last week? Those who cleared an entire wing in the last month? Which metric do you use for active raiders?

There are also different issues. Do you count the percentage of players compared to the total active population? Do you count the percentage of players compared to Heart of Thorns owners? Do you include free accounts? Or only accounts that have access to Raids.

If we go only with people that have access to Raids (Expansion owners) do we also include players that started playing this week? It’s only logical that only players with some experience and play time will be in Raids, they’ll have the gear, the experience and the unlocked elite specializations to enter the Raid in the first place. So each player will use a completely different metric to show if Raids are successful or not.

These numbers aren’t the easiest to come by in order to give that percentage, and each number tells a different story. Even a “5% of the players are raiding” doesn’t mean much.

maddoctor.2738:

How do we count the active population of Guild Wars 2?

Last time they made some numbers available (which was a month after HoT launch), it turned out they considered active anyone that has logged in even once in the launch month.
I wouldn’t expect much of any statistics made like this.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

That should be easy to speculate, there must be some way to figure out how many DPS meter downloads have occurred since add on sites like Curse show the total downloads.

From what I understand the only players that care about these programs are raiders.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

I kill all available raid bosses every week, i would consider myself a raider but i am completely against dps meters and refuse to use them. Majority of my guildmates that i raid with also don’t use those tools.

Given, that since Anet gave their blessing to abuse of 3rd party software, everyone and their mother seems to be jumping on bandwagon and getting those tools that allow you to read data from other players without their permission (aaand there will be, per usual, no consequences for it even if you report those players), i would say majority is still not using them yet.

@OP: define what is raider for you?

Cynz.9437:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

That should be easy to speculate, there must be some way to figure out how many DPS meter downloads have occurred since add on sites like Curse show the total downloads.

From what I understand the only players that care about these programs are raiders.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

I kill all available raid bosses every week, i would consider myself a raider but i am completely against dps meters and refuse to use them. Majority of my guildmates that i raid with also don’t use those tools.

Given, that since Anet gave their blessing to abuse of 3rd party software, everyone and their mother seems to be jumping on bandwagon and getting those tools that allow you to read data from other players without their permission (aaand there will be, per usual, no consequences for it even if you report those players), i would say majority is still not using them yet.

@OP: define what is raider for you?

I find funny that you reference the damage you do as personal information, its just like saying " Stop looking at the boons i have its my personal information".
Your DPS is not your private data, its game information.
Back to the topic: As a lot of people already said knowing how much players raid don’t mean a thing, because there a lot of variables to it. The only people that would use it is the people that are bashing raids, no matter if the numbers are really good they would make the effort to show it like a bad thing.

Raiding guilds already create multiple windows of opportunity for new players to get into raiding.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Raiding guilds already create multiple windows of opportunity for new players to get into raiding.

And raiding community is working hard to close them.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Cynz.9437:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

That should be easy to speculate, there must be some way to figure out how many DPS meter downloads have occurred since add on sites like Curse show the total downloads.

From what I understand the only players that care about these programs are raiders.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

I kill all available raid bosses every week, i would consider myself a raider but i am completely against dps meters and refuse to use them. Majority of my guildmates that i raid with also don’t use those tools.

Given, that since Anet gave their blessing to abuse of 3rd party software, everyone and their mother seems to be jumping on bandwagon and getting those tools that allow you to read data from other players without their permission (aaand there will be, per usual, no consequences for it even if you report those players), i would say majority is still not using them yet.

@OP: define what is raider for you?

I find funny that you reference the damage you do as personal information, its just like saying " Stop looking at the boons i have its my personal information".
Your DPS is not your private data, its game information.
Back to the topic: As a lot of people already said knowing how much players raid don’t mean a thing, because there a lot of variables to it. The only people that would use it is the people that are bashing raids, no matter if the numbers are really good they would make the effort to show it like a bad thing.

What items i am using, what is in my inventory etc. is data from my account that other players should not have access to but they have due to the said dps meters because there is no real punishment for such stuff.

I will still defend poistion that dps meters generally are toxic to the game and cause nothing but drama. Yesterday i was allowed to listen to some guy talking non stop about dps of our group (how bad it is, how good it is, and that we should get class XY and get rid of other yada yada) on ts and blaming our group for failing the CM due to dps when real reason we were failing is due to people constantly dying to mechanics (3-4 people at time). He just doesn’t understand that dead people don’t dps (he actually convinced people to drop teleport spells we needed for mechanics for the sake of dps, same people also died pretty fast) and that we should have rather focused on mechanics instead of perfect golem rotation.

Sure, i can block this guy but this crap is already spreading like infection since Anet gave their blessing to the tool. This wasn’t the first group that had player like this and won’t be the last. It will be just like LI, you won’t find any group without some player spreading toxicity thanks to the tool.

The raid community is bigger than the pvp community

Valik Shin.9027:

The raid community is bigger than the pvp community

Source?

Rednik.3809:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Raiding guilds already create multiple windows of opportunity for new players to get into raiding.

And raiding community is working hard to close them.

If there was any truth to that then Guilds wouldn’t post or refine Guides for every boss, post or refine Builds for every fight, post Training Guild advertisements, hell some even go as far as helping new raiders gear up by either giving gold or help craft certain items.

Yeah the Raiding community is doing its best to close all opportunities for new players to experience raids…/sarcasm

It’s sad that players want to take some of the only challenging PvE content and make it into Spam 1 collect loot just to increase “accessibility” when there are no actual gates to Raiding besides self imposed restrictions.

The Raiding community has done its best to make raids be easily accessible by providing a ton of information to include, guides, strategies, builds, dps benchmarks and they are constantly updating this information. They are taking the brunt of the work of Theory crafting which is the most expensive/time consuming thing when it comes to challenging content and providing it to the Community for the Communities benefit, on top of that a lot of Raiding guilds providing Raid training as well as helping gear players for raids.

The Raid community also proved that players don’t need BiS gear or Top Tier DPS to complete the raids, and showing that metabuilds are not necessary in every case(only they make it more consistent)

Just because players don’t want to use the resources available or to put effort into either looking for a static raid group (the game runs 24/7 with multiple raid guilds from multiple time zones Raiding at all hours) or into looking up and utilizing the guides/builds proven to work does not mean that raids are inaccessible, since those are self imposed limitations.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

If there was any truth to that then Guilds wouldn’t post or refine Guides for every boss, post or refine Builds for every fight, post Training Guild advertisements, hell some even go as far as helping new raiders gear up by either giving gold or help craft certain items.

Yeah the Raiding community is doing its best to close all opportunities for new players to experience raids…/sarcasm

It’s sad that players want to take some of the only challenging PvE content and make it into Spam 1 collect loot just to increase “accessibility” when there are no actual gates to Raiding besides self imposed restrictions.

The Raiding community has done its best to make raids be easily accessible by providing a ton of information to include, guides, strategies, builds, dps benchmarks and they are constantly updating this information. They are taking the brunt of the work of Theory crafting which is the most expensive/time consuming thing when it comes to challenging content and providing it to the Community for the Communities benefit, on top of that a lot of Raiding guilds providing Raid training as well as helping gear players for raids.

The Raid community also proved that players don’t need BiS gear or Top Tier DPS to complete the raids, and showing that metabuilds are not necessary in every case(only they make it more consistent)

Just because players don’t want to use the resources available or to put effort into either looking for a static raid group (the game runs 24/7 with multiple raid guilds from multiple time zones Raiding at all hours) or into looking up and utilizing the guides/builds proven to work does not mean that raids are inaccessible, since those are self imposed limitations.

These few guilds who provides guides, strategies, builds, dps benchmarks and training runs are part of community, but rather small one. And majority of community is doing quite opposite – creating and maintaining artificial barriers. As long as 50+ LI Escort LFGs are keep popping, overall community effect is closer to negative one.

Rednik.3809:

As long as 50+ LI Escort LFGs are keep popping, overall community effect is closer to negative one.

You don’t need to watch out for Escort lfgs. Just open one by yourself. This event is so easy, why on earth would you waste time to wait for the perfect lfg for this specific encounter?
The only barrier you create is the one inside yourself: “Wow, there is a 50 LI lfg for Escort. Rude and evil. Raiders are stopping others from joining raids with it.” Do you even read what you are writing?

What’s the reason in getting mad when you discover such an lfg and you don’t meet the requirements?

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights

Less than 30% of the registered accounts on GW2efficiency have a legendary insight.

45% of the accounts registered have at least 1 magnetite shard.

While not perfect, it gives a pretty good idea since leg armor isn’t released yet (meaning people can’t have spent their LI yet). Less than 1/3 of the community raids, but not much less. Almost half of the community has at least attempted raids, even if 1/3 of the people that tried didn’t manage to kill a boss

Well, I am pro raids, raiding myself but please don’t let us take gw2efficiency as a valid source for some numbers – not even as a little insight. It’s biased towards both directions and doesn’t help anyone of us.

With a base of 110 thousand accounts on it, its a large enough sample to be valid and representative of GW2 as a whole. And its a better baseline than the other guesses in this thread since it has actual data, from over a hundred thousand accounts, to back it up.

OriOri.8724:

representative of GW2 as a whole

I disagree here. We already had discussions here why it is not sure to be representative of GW2 as a whole.

We don’t know if gw2efficiency is problably used more often by raiders than others or if it’s the other way round. There are indications for both.

These numbers are numbers but they actually are of very little value.

Vinceman.4572:

OriOri.8724:

representative of GW2 as a whole

I disagree here. We already had discussions here why it is not sure to be representative of GW2 as a whole.

We don’t know if gw2efficiency is problably used more often by raiders than others or if it’s the other way round. There are indications for both.

These numbers are numbers but they actually are of very little value.

This is where statistics come in.

Rednik.3809:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

snip

These few guilds who provides guides, strategies, builds, dps benchmarks and training runs are part of community, but rather small one. And majority of community is doing quite opposite – creating and maintaining artificial barriers. As long as 50+ LI Escort LFGs are keep popping, overall community effect is closer to negative one.

Can a player not create their own Raid group? Can a Player not post their own LFG? Can a Player not lead their own Group? Can a Player not look for an actual Raid training Guild? Can a Player not join a Static Raid Guild? Can a Player not group with similar minded people to them? Can a Player not take their own initiative?

And you are basing your weak bias on the pugs, which I bet don’t make up the majority of the Raiding community, I would love to see your definitive numbers on how many pug raids there are vs Static Raid groups/guilds, most static Raid groups/guilds don’t have Li requirements as far as I have seen, and I have been in quite a few all of which offered training runs for all of their members.

PuG community =/= All of Raid community, and they only try to emulate the Actual Raid community, you very very rarely ever see PuGs innovating or adding to the Raid Meta, they just try to carbon copy the actual Raid community.

Again there are no real Accessibility issues with Raids. All accessibility issues are Self imposed which is not the Developers problem to fix or the Raid Communities, every group will have their own requirements because us as players aren’t forced to group with people we don’t want to in Raids, us as players have choices we get to make on who we group with, players should not be forced to group with anyone they deem they don’t want to be grouped with, if a group has requirements a player doesn’t meet is not bad or toxic, since that player has endless options available to them to Raid.

Again let’s looks at Raids and accessibility:

Does not require any Special Items to attempt or enter.
Does not require BiS Ascended gear.
Does not Have any restriction on entering Raids.
Raids are not gated behind anything.
Anyone can Create their own Raid Group.
Anyone can Enter Raids.
Anyone can attempt Raids.
Anyone can look for Guilds/Static Groups that meet their needs for Raids.
Does not require specific Builds(some builds are just more efficient for the same job)
The Raid Community provided Guides for every Encounter and updates Guides regularly.
The Raid community provided Class builds and compositions that are proven to be consistent with results, they are updated regularly.

Raids only require level 80 characters, Teamwork, adaptability, socialization, communication, class knowledge, role knowledge, and encounter knowledge.

Again LI are not a requirement for players to Raid, they don’t limit players from Creating/Leading their own Raid Groups, they aren’t required to enter Raids, they aren’t Required for anything besides making Legendary armor, if you think they are a requirement that is on you and are limiting yourself.

The resources for success at Raids are provided to all players by the Raiding Community, and by the Game, it’s on the individual player to overcome their own limitations to utilize what is provided.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Can a player not create their own Raid group? Can a Player not post their own LFG? Can a Player not lead their own Group? Can a Player not look for an actual Raid training Guild? Can a Player not join a Static Raid Guild? Can a Player not group with similar minded people to them? Can a Player not take their own initiative?

Exactly that list was addressed in Bastion of Penitent topic, yesterday. No, he cannot because this list is not working.

OriOri.8724:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights

There are lots of problems with that data, even if we say that the gw2efficiency is representative of the actual playerbase (which personally I think it’s close, but others will disagree)

First, 29.5% of Everybody has at least 1 Legendary Insight but that doesn’t make them a Raider. It means they killed ONE boss sometime. Maybe they then stopped playing? 1 Legendary Insight isn’t enough to show a “raider”. If you look at about 30 Legendary Insights, which I think is more “normal” for someone who finished the first Raid, it’s only 10%

Second, in that 29.5% of Everybody the list counts players with 0-500 hours of playtime. Those players are likely not to have Ascended equipment and not be very experienced in the game yet, so they are not yet ready for Raids. Only 3% of the players in the 0-500h bracket have at least 1 legendary insight. On the other hand 62.5% of those in the 4k+ bracket have at least one Legendary Insight, which means the older players are more likely to Raid. Where do you draw the line?

The key with Raids is to identify what a “raider” is first and then compare those players with those who could be running them in the first place.

Rednik.3809:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Can a player not create their own Raid group? Can a Player not post their own LFG? Can a Player not lead their own Group? Can a Player not look for an actual Raid training Guild? Can a Player not join a Static Raid Guild? Can a Player not group with similar minded people to them? Can a Player not take their own initiative?

Exactly that list was addressed in Bastion of Penitent topic, yesterday. No, he cannot because this list is not working.

It’s worked for several people that I know.

Ayrilana.1396:

Vinceman.4572:

OriOri.8724:

representative of GW2 as a whole

I disagree here. We already had discussions here why it is not sure to be representative of GW2 as a whole.

We don’t know if gw2efficiency is problably used more often by raiders than others or if it’s the other way round. There are indications for both.

These numbers are numbers but they actually are of very little value.

This is where statistics come in.

Statistics is not just using numbers… -.-

If you preselect 9 people from the start and add 1 random from the street, your data is not independent. Same is if you preselect 100,000 people and add 10,000 randomly – your data won’t be independent.
In this case, we don’t know if these 110,000 are filled with 90% of the raid population, if it’s 10% or anything else. We don’t even have an estimate of the part that is raiding within the gw2efficiency pool.
Either way these numbers have 0 value and in no way they are an argument for pro-raids or con-raids.

Rednik.3809:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Can a player not create their own Raid group? Can a Player not post their own LFG? Can a Player not lead their own Group? Can a Player not look for an actual Raid training Guild? Can a Player not join a Static Raid Guild? Can a Player not group with similar minded people to them? Can a Player not take their own initiative?

Exactly that list was addressed in Bastion of Penitent topic, yesterday. No, he cannot because this list is not working.

He can, he doesn’t want to, so its his problem.
I want a legendary weapon but don’t wanna do the collection and map completion.
A-net need to solve this? No, because i don’t want do what is needed to achieve this goal ( getting a legendary ).
So if a player don’t wanna do one of many things he can do (there are more than 1 sucessfull way to approach raids) to raid thats his problem not a game problem.

People are just used to putting no effort into their builds, pressing Y, joining an open group for w/e content they wanted to do, and then going in and bashing their head into their keyboard until they eventually made it through.

When they aren’t able to do that for raids they just throw their hands up and say “well raiding is too hard to get into because I can’t just join a random pug” and they complain about it on forums and reddit.

Ayrilana.1396:

Vinceman.4572:

OriOri.8724:

representative of GW2 as a whole

I disagree here. We already had discussions here why it is not sure to be representative of GW2 as a whole.

We don’t know if gw2efficiency is problably used more often by raiders than others or if it’s the other way round. There are indications for both.

These numbers are numbers but they actually are of very little value.

This is where statistics come in.

And having an understanding of statistics tells us that Vinceman is correct. A biased sample is unlikely to be representative of the entire population. All GW2E can tell us is what percentage of people who signed up for GW2E have LI’s or MS’s.

Vinceman.4572:

Ayrilana.1396:

Vinceman.4572:

OriOri.8724:

representative of GW2 as a whole

I disagree here. We already had discussions here why it is not sure to be representative of GW2 as a whole.

We don’t know if gw2efficiency is problably used more often by raiders than others or if it’s the other way round. There are indications for both.

These numbers are numbers but they actually are of very little value.

This is where statistics come in.

Statistics is not just using numbers… -.-

If you preselect 9 people from the start and add 1 random from the street, your data is not independent. Same is if you preselect 100,000 people and add 10,000 randomly – your data won’t be independent.
In this case, we don’t know if these 110,000 are filled with 90% of the raid population, if it’s 10% or anything else. We don’t even have an estimate of the part that is raiding within the gw2efficiency pool.
Either way these numbers have 0 value and in no way they are an argument for pro-raids or con-raids.

You can easily determine what sample size you would need to be representative of the population. There’s also no apparent indications that registration on that website is biased towards any particular segment of the player population.

Again, this is where statistics comes in as it can handle the problem that you seem to think that it can’t.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ayrilana.1396:

Vinceman.4572:

OriOri.8724:

representative of GW2 as a whole

I disagree here. We already had discussions here why it is not sure to be representative of GW2 as a whole.

We don’t know if gw2efficiency is problably used more often by raiders than others or if it’s the other way round. There are indications for both.

These numbers are numbers but they actually are of very little value.

This is where statistics come in.

And having an understanding of statistics tells us that Vinceman is correct. A biased sample is unlikely to be representative of the entire population. All GW2E can tell us is what percentage of people who signed up for GW2E have LI’s or MS’s.

So you’re telling me that the player population on that website isn’t a large enough sample size?

You’re telling me that only a very specific segment of the population is attracted to that website? Any evidence to support that?