Guild Wars 2

Ethics.4519:

I’m not really wanting to read through all of this, but I believe the issue is that most people won’t or don’t want to optimize their gear at level 35. It’s 1000 times easier to find a lvl 80 with at least full rare (most likely full exotic/ascended trinkets) than it is to find a lvl 35 with full rares. Most of them don’t even have at level masterwork.

I pretty much agree with this. Even though exotic stuff get downscale and the difference between equipment rarity stats drops a lot, having a bit more of this and that sure makes difference

Other things to consider are traits and utility skills. Some utilities are just situtional, but a low level toon may not have them because of the lack of skill points.

Traits are important. Each point gives +10 of the stats (power/prec/vit/toughness) and a grandmaster trait like “Executioner” (20% extra damage when target is below 50% hp) are…. well, I cant even say how this is important

THERE’S NO PROBLEM WITH NON 80s, you lose some dps, but that’s no big deal. Good player > Full-exotic-doesnt-know-how-to-dodge player

The reason people don’t take low lvl players is because they don’t have all their traits, therefor their builds are incomplete and not as effective. Second reason is because you never know, if a low lvl players even knows, what they are doing. If you want to run dungeons with low lvl toons I strongly suggest you join a guild that does that – problem solved.

SkyChef.5432:

Wethospu.6437:

Level 35 Masterwork breastplate has 26/19 stats.
Level 80 Exotic has 101/72 stats. Scaled down those become: 28.23/20.12

Level 35 Rare has 21/29 stats.

So in theory they can get pretty equal stat-wise because level 80 also has more traits, if level 80 uses armor with critical damage.
But do you honestly expect level 35 people to wear full rares? (which get weaker every time they level up)

Wethospu.6437:

SkyChef.5432:

Wethospu.6437:

Level 35 Masterwork breastplate has 26/19 stats.
Level 80 Exotic has 101/72 stats. Scaled down those become: 28.23/20.12

Level 35 Rare has 21/29 stats.

So in theory they can get pretty equal stat-wise because level 80 also has more traits, if level 80 uses armor with critical damage.
But do you honestly expect level 35 people to wear full rares? (which get weaker every time they level up)

You asked for a proof and I noticed that you compared Master gear w/ Exotic gear and missing the rare gear in the data base. I thought it’s nice to point that out.
Whether people wearing level 35 rare gears or not is entirely another subject and not under the discussion whether level 35 could do more damage than a level 80.

ShroomOneUp.6913:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

I can’t imagine why no one wanted you in their party. Underleveled and undergeared with a drug reference name. That wouldn’t set off any red flags for me.

haha the old gaga super mario eats mushroom because they are drugs ahahahahaha

Diviner.7405:

Syn Sity.5826:

Hahaha, I got like 5 sentences in and cracked up, this forum is gold.

Pretty sure the OP been eating to many shrooms.

yet again wonderful exsample of not contributing anything. and yet again MARIO EATS MUSHROOMS HAHA FUNNY BECAUSE MUSHROOM CAN BE DRUGS TOO HAHAHA

Mario is still not underleveled, undergeared, and holding me back.

SkyChef.5432:

Wethospu.6437:

So in theory they can get pretty equal stat-wise because level 80 also has more traits, if level 80 uses armor with critical damage.
But do you honestly expect level 35 people to wear full rares? (which get weaker every time they level up)

You asked for a proof and I noticed that you compared Master gear w/ Exotic gear and missing the rare gear in the data base. I thought it’s nice to point that out.
Whether people wearing level 35 rare gears or not is entirely another subject and not under the discussion whether level 35 could do more damage than a level 80.

I compared Exotic to Masterwork to improve and clarify results from laokoko. Also at that level Masterwork can be considered realistic (perhaps even bit optimistic), at least I really don’t expect random pugs to run in full Rare gear.

And I really hope you don’t consider that a proof of level 35 dealing more damage. If you do, I suggest taking look at the trait system.

Wethospu.6437:

SkyChef.5432:

Wethospu.6437:

So in theory they can get pretty equal stat-wise because level 80 also has more traits, if level 80 uses armor with critical damage.
But do you honestly expect level 35 people to wear full rares? (which get weaker every time they level up)

You asked for a proof and I noticed that you compared Master gear w/ Exotic gear and missing the rare gear in the data base. I thought it’s nice to point that out.
Whether people wearing level 35 rare gears or not is entirely another subject and not under the discussion whether level 35 could do more damage than a level 80.

I compared Exotic to Masterwork to improve and clarify results from laokoko. Also at that level Masterwork can be considered realistic (perhaps even bit optimistic), at least I really don’t expect random pugs to run in full Rare gear.

And I really hope you don’t consider that a proof of level 35 dealing more damage. If you do, I suggest taking look at the trait system.

There is no proof one way or another. You took some unofficial spreadsheet from someone who has done some experiments in trial & error and think it’s gospel. Common sense dictates that Anet must have a complex data base or equations to dynamic scaling level to even the playing field. This data base or equation has probably included everything contributed to a player stat in the game.
You have access to that table? If you do, then you are correct. If you don’t have it, then it’s a speculation.
Based on that speculation, the stat of Rare gears is better than Exotic gears. But it’s still a speculation nonetheless. And no, thank you. I don’t really care that much about this game to investigate further about some magnificent fractional points of certain stats to make certain few seconds faster or slower.

I have personally done research on stat scaling. After collecting data I made my theory (that it is based on base stats on that level) and so far it has scaled down everything correctly, regardless of dungeon or source of stats.

This is the javascript function I use to get scaling.

function getStatScale(level) {
    // Starting stats.
    var stat = 24;
    // Stats at max level.
    var max = 916;
    for (i = 1; i < level; i++) {
        // "Level up".
        stat += 4 + Math.floor((i + 1) / 10) * 2;
    }
    return stat / max;
}

Here is the generated data:
“level”: “scale” “base stat at that level”
1: 0.026200873362445413 24 statcalculator.js:58
2: 0.03056768558951965 28 statcalculator.js:58
3: 0.034934497816593885 32 statcalculator.js:58
4: 0.039301310043668124 36 statcalculator.js:58
5: 0.043668122270742356 40 statcalculator.js:58
6: 0.048034934497816595 44 statcalculator.js:58
7: 0.05240174672489083 48 statcalculator.js:58
8: 0.056768558951965066 52 statcalculator.js:58
9: 0.0611353711790393 56 statcalculator.js:58
10: 0.06768558951965066 62 statcalculator.js:58
11: 0.07423580786026202 68 statcalculator.js:58
12: 0.08078602620087336 74 statcalculator.js:58
13: 0.08733624454148471 80 statcalculator.js:58
14: 0.09388646288209607 86 statcalculator.js:58
15: 0.10043668122270742 92 statcalculator.js:58
16: 0.10698689956331878 98 statcalculator.js:58
17: 0.11353711790393013 104 statcalculator.js:58
18: 0.12008733624454149 110 statcalculator.js:58
19: 0.12663755458515283 116 statcalculator.js:58
20: 0.13537117903930132 124 statcalculator.js:58
21: 0.14410480349344978 132 statcalculator.js:58
22: 0.15283842794759825 140 statcalculator.js:58
23: 0.1615720524017467 148 statcalculator.js:58
24: 0.1703056768558952 156 statcalculator.js:58
25: 0.17903930131004367 164 statcalculator.js:58
26: 0.18777292576419213 172 statcalculator.js:58
27: 0.1965065502183406 180 statcalculator.js:58
28: 0.2052401746724891 188 statcalculator.js:58
29: 0.21397379912663755 196 statcalculator.js:58
30: 0.22489082969432314 206 statcalculator.js:58
31: 0.23580786026200873 216 statcalculator.js:58
32: 0.24672489082969432 226 statcalculator.js:58
33: 0.2576419213973799 236 statcalculator.js:58
34: 0.2685589519650655 246 statcalculator.js:58
35: 0.2794759825327511 256 statcalculator.js:58
36: 0.2903930131004367 266 statcalculator.js:58
37: 0.30131004366812225 276 statcalculator.js:58
38: 0.31222707423580787 286 statcalculator.js:58
39: 0.3231441048034934 296 statcalculator.js:58
40: 0.33624454148471616 308 statcalculator.js:58
41: 0.34934497816593885 320 statcalculator.js:58
42: 0.3624454148471616 332 statcalculator.js:58
43: 0.37554585152838427 344 statcalculator.js:58
44: 0.388646288209607 356 statcalculator.js:58
45: 0.4017467248908297 368 statcalculator.js:58
46: 0.4148471615720524 380 statcalculator.js:58
47: 0.4279475982532751 392 statcalculator.js:58
48: 0.4410480349344978 404 statcalculator.js:58
49: 0.45414847161572053 416 statcalculator.js:58
50: 0.46943231441048033 430 statcalculator.js:58
51: 0.4847161572052402 444 statcalculator.js:58
52: 0.5 458 statcalculator.js:58
53: 0.5152838427947598 472 statcalculator.js:58
54: 0.5305676855895196 486 statcalculator.js:58
55: 0.5458515283842795 500 statcalculator.js:58
56: 0.5611353711790393 514 statcalculator.js:58
57: 0.5764192139737991 528 statcalculator.js:58
58: 0.5917030567685589 542 statcalculator.js:58
59: 0.6069868995633187 556 statcalculator.js:58
60: 0.6244541484716157 572 statcalculator.js:58
61: 0.6419213973799127 588 statcalculator.js:58
62: 0.6593886462882096 604 statcalculator.js:58
63: 0.6768558951965066 620 statcalculator.js:58
64: 0.6943231441048034 636 statcalculator.js:58
65: 0.7117903930131004 652 statcalculator.js:58
66: 0.7292576419213974 668 statcalculator.js:58
67: 0.7467248908296943 684 statcalculator.js:58
68: 0.7641921397379913 700 statcalculator.js:58
69: 0.7816593886462883 716 statcalculator.js:58
70: 0.8013100436681223 734 statcalculator.js:58
71: 0.8209606986899564 752 statcalculator.js:58
72: 0.8406113537117904 770 statcalculator.js:58
73: 0.8602620087336245 788 statcalculator.js:58
74: 0.8799126637554585 806 statcalculator.js:58
75: 0.8995633187772926 824 statcalculator.js:58
76: 0.9192139737991266 842 statcalculator.js:58
77: 0.9388646288209607 860 statcalculator.js:58
78: 0.9585152838427947 878 statcalculator.js:58
79: 0.9781659388646288 896 statcalculator.js:58
80: 1 916

Feel free to test it by yourself

Yes, Rare level 35 gear has better stats than Exotic. However the point I was trying to make is that level 80 has access to a lot more traitpoints which will overcome this difference.

Let’s say Exotic gear gives 0.279*3000=837 stat points (actually much less) + some critical damage. Then if Rare level 35 gear has 5% more stats that’s 42 more stat points. Level 80 has 45 more trait points which is like 0.279*450=126 stat points. Clearly level 80 wins.

Then also level 80 has actual traits with various effect and access to better runes.

What if Anet used different algorithm which is also including traits of a level 80s to adjust to level 35 level? I’m pretty sure that they know level 80 have 450 pts more than level 35.

SkyChef.5432:

What if Anet used different algorithm which is also including traits of a level 80s to adjust to level 35 level? I’m pretty sure that they know level 80s have 450 pts more than level 35s.

I’m sure that they know, the question is, did they care enough to take that into consideration and make more complex programming to account for it? Based on my observations over the last year, I’d say hell no.

Nah, I don’t think it’s complex. They must have that already to account for a lot of things that affect the outcome of certain trait’s selection (and bugs). And if you really stand back to look at this game’s architectural design, it’s an awesome undertaking.

SkyChef.5432:

What if Anet used different algorithm which is also including traits of a level 80s to adjust to level 35 level? I’m pretty sure that they know level 80 have 450 pts more than level 35.

Sorry, I’m not sure what you are trying to say. If you are talking about stat points from traits, they are included in my theory (“regardless of source”). If you are talking about actual traits, well, would be really weird to make them scale.

Weth,
I was paying attention at your code & your table against the other guy’s spreadsheet so I’ve probably miss that. The way I look at it is it’s inherent bias to level 80 for whoever could add more points after the base 916, definitely would win the number. So yes, 450 more pts in trait would win that part hand down.
Next: rare gear (theoretical discussion, players definitely not using it) has 5% advantage over exotic per piece (assume they are uniform), would 6 piece of rare gears add more to stat points hence overcome the 450 pts in trait?
As a side note, my questions are curious in nature. Not trying to prove you wrong or anything. I don’t like to re-invent the wheel but I want to make sure the wheel isn’t a square one.

This is yet another example of why base damage modifier traits are so good.

SkyChef.5432:

Weth,
I was paying attention at your code & your table against the other guy’s spreadsheet so I’ve probably miss that. The way I look at it is it’s inherent bias to level 80 for whoever could add more points after the base 916, definitely would win the number. So yes, 450 more pts in trait would win that part hand down.
Next: rare gear (theoretical discussion, players definitely not using it) has 5% advantage over exotic per piece (assume they are uniform), would 6 piece of rare gears add more to stat points hence overcome the 450 pts in trait?
As a side note, my questions are curious in nature. Not trying to prove you wrong or anything. I don’t like to re-invent the wheel but I want to make sure the wheel isn’t a square one.

My 3000 stat point over-estimation included all stats you get from Exotic gear.
My stats are 2445 Power and 1654 Precision. That’s 2445 + 1654 – 2*916 = 2267 from gear, runes and traits. Then I just chose a big enough number (3000) to ensure I get a solid result.
Point is, even after over-estimating effect of gear the additional trait points still come stronger.

I think that even without any additional stats from traits level 80 would be stronger because of the actual traits.

Only 80’s????
WTF!!!
Are you kidding me?!?!
Yes 35lvl is not as strong as 80lvl but why shouldn’t it come?If it knows the tacktick and knows how to survive and do some dmg then it’s fine.I don’t mind low lvls to join my groups as long they are not being carried by the group.Boosting is not free and never will be.

because traits tend to do things like condition cleanse the party, increase DPS of weapons, spread might, et cetera. Various things that “knowing the tactics” can’t reasonably cover.

I could study The Art of War all my life, if I want, doesn’t mean I’ll suddenly know how to fire a rifle.

running dungeons on a lowlvl char is no problem, you can easily find groups of people who are lowlvl themselves. I’ve leveled several chars in ascalon without ever waiting for an extended period of time for a group. I just joined ‘alt level groups’ or simply those which wrote 35 in the lvl tab on gw2lfg (empty or 80 means you shouldn’t join)

lowlvl groups will usually be a lot slower and sometimes wipe/fail completely.

don’t expect people who run an efficient build and ask everyone to do the same to carry you through because you don’t like running in lowlvl groups – that’s the only elitism I see in this thread.

please follow the link since msot of you have missed the point of the thread due to my flavor text. here its bare bones what you where suppposed to discuss -.-
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/How-to-make-doungen-with-low-lvls-attractiv

^ I’m not going to post there. The problem isn’t high level people dont’ want to group with low level people.

The problem is low level people dont’ even want to group with low level people.

If you ask me, just stop dungeon swaping. If people can’t swap their lvl80 main for alt in the end, they’ll have to play their lower level.

If you want, fill free to group with me. My thief should hit lvl35 soon. I’m inexperienced, bad with theif and don’t know how to play. Fill free to hit me up with a group so we can wipe alot and have fun.

The problem is low level people don’t know what they’re doing and people who are speed-clearing the dungeons don’t want to carry others.

ShroomOneUp.6913:

please follow the link since msot of you have missed the point of the thread due to my flavor text. here its bare bones what you where suppposed to discuss -.-
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/How-to-make-doungen-with-low-lvls-attractiv

You kinda insulted “elitists” who don’t want to run with lower-levels in your opening post, which is -kinda- tacit permission to have people defend their point of view. If it wasn’t relevant to your opening post, you shouldn’t have posted it.

I just got to lvl35. Feel free to party with me.

If you don’t want to party with me because I’m lvl35, a theif, and don’t know how to play…

Maybe other people dont’ want to play with you too.