Guild Wars 2

Rednik.3809:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

I have a bachelor’s degree in accounting. If you had any idea what you were talking about you would realize that Anet’s quarterly reports have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not raids have an easy mode.

So when LOTS of people are disappointed and leaving, it have nothing to do with a major switch in endgame philosophy and direction. Allright.

It is confirmed that gem sales are stable so I’m not sure how you get that many people are leaving (without many others joining)

Come on guys, don’t fall for it. Rednik is bringing that up over and over again although it is not true and won’t lead to any constructive discussion at all.

maddoctor.2738:

It is confirmed that gem sales are stable so I’m not sure how you get that many people are leaving (without many others joining)

It’s confirmed that revenue before HoT was at least 33% higher, and there was no fresh HoT boxes to push it up. So, how exactly revenue from HoT sales + gem sales while being so significantly weaker than previous revenue without HoT sales, somehow can be on par?

Nokaru.7831:

Blaeys.3102:

This would – most likely – not take away one second from the development of the regular mode or any other content in the game.

Maybe you think if you keep saying this enough it will become true. It won’t.

I’m not a developer, so I may be off base, but I think the logic is pretty straight forward. Every boss in the current wing has a challenge mote – something that most raiders I know universally see as a bad move. The regular mode of the raid should be eyebleeding difficult encouraging hardcore raiders to push themselves to the limits repeatedly to get better at raiding.

At the same time, there is this community outcry for accessibility to content, story, etc in raids.

Im saying they should take the development time that would go into the challenge motes (which, again, were considered a bad move by most raiders I know) and put it into a story or training mote instead. Instead of adding new mechanics and making the math of the encounter more demanding, remove a couple of mechanics and make the math more forgiving.

This does two things – it gives them freer reins to make the regular mode as hard as it should be (much harder than it is now) while still providing all players in the game access to the content.

Going even further, this opens up raids as a truly viable storytelling tool. They wont have to dance around relevant storylines anymore and can truly integrate raiding into the GW2 end game where it should be.

Rednik.3809:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

I have a bachelor’s degree in accounting. If you had any idea what you were talking about you would realize that Anet’s quarterly reports have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not raids have an easy mode.

So when LOTS of people are disappointed and leaving, it have nothing to do with a major switch in endgame philosophy and direction. Allright.

1. We don’t know how many people are leaving.
2. We have far less info about why.
3. It doesn’t at all matter, since ANet’s issue is that game sales are below stockholder expectations.

Adding a story mode to raids isn’t going to bring in droves of new players (the financial issue) and it’s not going to bring back droves who quit (since that can’t possibly be the only issue) and it’s not going to stop people from leaving. It would, however, divert developer resources into the very mode that is being discussed.

If the issue is too many resources give to raids, then throwing more resources makes things worse, not better.

The game has always included lore & stories in game modes gated by perceived difficulty. Raids just happen to be the latest.

I’m glad you brought up the CMs! The top complaints of them were, “The rewards were not repeatable” and “the non-CM mode was too easy compared to other raid wings.” The CMs demonstrated (unarguably) that putting time into another mode does in fact detract and dilute the quality of the normal mode.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

It is confirmed that gem sales are stable so I’m not sure how you get that many people are leaving (without many others joining)

It’s confirmed that revenue before HoT was at least 33% higher, and there was no fresh HoT boxes to push it up. So, how exactly revenue from HoT sales + gem sales while being so significantly weaker than previous revenue without HoT sales, somehow can be on par?

What’s not confirmed is the cause.

The failure of a significant percentage of active accounts to adopt HoT due to a myriad of reasons seems much more likely to be the cause than raids. HoT angered a lot of posters who gave many reasons for it — it didn’t offer enough zones; no free slot; and bundled core/the alleged shafting of veterans thereby are among those reasons. Few if any posters gave the inclusion of raids as the reason they were not going to buy the XPac. Since the new content ANet is offering is opened up via HoT purchase, those people seem more likely to be the ones who’ve stopped playing and buying gems.

As to a shift in endgame philosophy, ANet has continued to put out story/open world and FotM endgame content at greater frequency than they did in the year prior to HoT.

Your confirmation bias is showing.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The failure of a significant percentage of active accounts to adopt HoT due to a myriad of reasons seems much more likely to be the cause than raids.

Probably. That also means that HoT failed to please GW2 core auditory, due to various reasons , as you said. That means, that HoT did a lot of its job very wrong and lots of GW2 veterans are not interested in HoT content. That means that next addon must do a lot of job to appeal to old vanilla GW2 crowd, if Anet wants to return their revenue.

IndigoSundown.5419:

As to a shift in endgame philosophy, ANet has continued to put out story/open world and FotM endgame content at greater frequency than they did in the year prior to HoT.

Your confirmation bias is showing.

You know, it’s not me wearing a red dev badge and saying that they now see fractals as stepping stones to raids. So much for old “fractals are endgame too” philosophy.

Rednik.3809:

It’s confirmed that revenue before HoT was at least 33% higher, and there was no fresh HoT boxes to push it up. So, how exactly revenue from HoT sales + gem sales while being so significantly weaker than previous revenue without HoT sales, somehow can be on par?

It’s confirmed that the revenue from gem sales is stable, that’s something you can’t deny because it’s official. Which means your comments about “LOTS of players leaving the game due to Raids” as a cause for the revenue drop is unfounded and without any kind of data to back it up.

What isn’t selling is the expansion itself. It’s not selling as much as the base game did before the expansion was announced, Guild Wars 2, an already old game by 2015, was selling more than Heart of Thorns (before the free 2 play announcement). The reason for the revenue drop is the “low conversion” rate of the expansion, this includes both old players and free 2 play players not converting to the expansion.

That’s a clue as to where to focus and it’s not Raids, it’s not even the difficulty of meta events or of the expansion in general and it’s obviously outside the topic of this thread.

Rednik.3809:

You know, it’s not me wearing a red dev badge and saying that they now see fractals as stepping stones to raids. So much for old “fractals are endgame too” philosophy.

And what’s the problem with fractals being a stepping stone into raids?
Before HoT very few people played the highest fractals (Level 40-49 scale and level 50 scale) compared to the actual T4 daily crowd – the lfg is always filled with group requests.
Fractals are still endgame for a lot of people – the 5 men endgame – but if you can beat all T4 stuff and you want to explore some more, you can jump into raids.
Plus don’t forget to mention: T4 fractals are easier than the old 40s+ and 50!

maddoctor.2738:

Rednik.3809:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

I have a bachelor’s degree in accounting. If you had any idea what you were talking about you would realize that Anet’s quarterly reports have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not raids have an easy mode.

So when LOTS of people are disappointed and leaving, it have nothing to do with a major switch in endgame philosophy and direction. Allright.

It is confirmed that gem sales are stable so I’m not sure how you get that many people are leaving (without many others joining)

off tpic but how are gem sales stable if the quarterly updates show less and less income for anet?

Vinceman.4572:

Rednik.3809:

You know, it’s not me wearing a red dev badge and saying that they now see fractals as stepping stones to raids. So much for old “fractals are endgame too” philosophy.

And what’s the problem with fractals being a stepping stone into raids?
Before HoT very few people played the highest fractals (Level 40-49 scale and level 50 scale) compared to the actual T4 daily crowd – the lfg is always filled with group requests.
Fractals are still endgame for a lot of people – the 5 men endgame – but if you can beat all T4 stuff and you want to explore some more, you can jump into raids.
Plus don’t forget to mention: T4 fractals are easier than the old 40s+ and 50!

i wouldnt hate the idea of futute cm’s tho being the equivelant of raids but for five man in terms of dificulty

Rednik.3809:

You know, it’s not me wearing a red dev badge and saying that they now see fractals as stepping stones to raids. So much for old “fractals are endgame too” philosophy.

So, the devs see a progression in terms of group content difficulty. Insisting that only the hardest max level content is endgame is contrary to prior developer statements and to their current design intent. Under such a philosophy, a story mode raid would be pointless because it wouldn’t be endgame. New story, new zones and such? Also pointless. Fortunately while you seem intent on saying only the hardest content qualifies as endgame, ANet does not operate under that philosophy.

zealex.9410:

maddoctor.2738:

Rednik.3809:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

I have a bachelor’s degree in accounting. If you had any idea what you were talking about you would realize that Anet’s quarterly reports have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not raids have an easy mode.

So when LOTS of people are disappointed and leaving, it have nothing to do with a major switch in endgame philosophy and direction. Allright.

It is confirmed that gem sales are stable so I’m not sure how you get that many people are leaving (without many others joining)

off tpic but how are gem sales stable if the quarterly updates show less and less income for anet?

When ‘drops’ or ‘climbs’ are negligible. There’s a difference between something dropping from 25.5 to 14.3 in a quarter, and it going from 14.3 to 14.1 over two more quarters.

zealex.9410:

maddoctor.2738:

Rednik.3809:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

I have a bachelor’s degree in accounting. If you had any idea what you were talking about you would realize that Anet’s quarterly reports have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not raids have an easy mode.

So when LOTS of people are disappointed and leaving, it have nothing to do with a major switch in endgame philosophy and direction. Allright.

It is confirmed that gem sales are stable so I’m not sure how you get that many people are leaving (without many others joining)

off tpic but how are gem sales stable if the quarterly updates show less and less income for anet?

People aren’t buying many copies of HoT. Near as we can tell from the quarterly reports, the income from gems is fairly stable.

That suggests the problem is with F2P not being willing to spend US$20-50, bad word of mouth discouraging people, or just the stockholders making the mistake of assuming that expac sales would follow the same trends as the original game’s sales (spiking with various major updates).

Ayrilana.1396:

It shuts down the argument for easier raids on the basis of missed story content. I’m not at all surprised that it’s been discussed before since we’ve had how many threads?

I’ve said this in plenty of threads before now.

The common retort is, “Why should I” have to ? or “But i want my loot”….

What i’ve taken away from this is that the “easy mode” crowd have no clue what they actually want. Half seem to want all the progress toward legendary stuff/unique raid items while the others claim to want the story but cannot be bothered to use /wiki or youtube.

It’s basically the i want the game to cater to me crowd type of arguments.

Vinceman.4572:

Rednik.3809:

You know, it’s not me wearing a red dev badge and saying that they now see fractals as stepping stones to raids. So much for old “fractals are endgame too” philosophy.

And what’s the problem with fractals being a stepping stone into raids?
Before HoT very few people played the highest fractals (Level 40-49 scale and level 50 scale) compared to the actual T4 daily crowd – the lfg is always filled with group requests.
Fractals are still endgame for a lot of people – the 5 men endgame – but if you can beat all T4 stuff and you want to explore some more, you can jump into raids.
Plus don’t forget to mention: T4 fractals are easier than the old 40s+ and 50!

Plus, ANet still considers T1-3 fractals as endgame; T4 fractals are sort of hybrid between endgame of their own and a stepping stone to raids. They thought it would make raids more accessible if there was 5-person content that allowed people to learn similar mechanics, encounters.

off tpic but how are gem sales stable if the quarterly updates show less and less income for anet?

Simple answer:

People aren’t buying many copies of HoT.

I know it’s an answer the anti-Raid crowd don’t want to accept but it’s the only answer that we have data to confirm, anything else is a wild fantasy.

And to give one more piece of data:
Guild Wars 2 gem cards are ranked #3821 on Amazon
In late 2014 it was ranked #3,465 so they are very close

Heart of Thorns is ranked #3,185 on Amazon
Guild Wars 2 Heroic Edition was ranked #1,697 in late 2014 (pre Heart of Thorns announcement)

The reason there is a revenue drop is due to lower than expected conversion rate of old players and free players, gem sales are stable

Now the topic was easy mode for Raids and if you check the OP, about making a spectator mode for Raids. It would be nice if there was discussion on that and not Anet’s financials, nor fractals.

Spectator mode raid for raid ? It feels underwhelming and too similar to watching a YouTube video. What would be cool be cool to have imo is in game guild features to replay the cinematics and read the notes tied to a wing. Similarly to how you obtain item when you defeat a worldboss for example, you could unlock a permanent npc that let you replay all of that. Any member of any guild represented that makes progress into the raid by killing a boss automatically update the availability of storywise content tied to the npc. But of course it wouldn’t be fair to require a guild level to be able to unlock this npc.

There is something to be said for a barrier to entry for some aspects of the game. Whether it is gear, lore, or unique skins it is all equally applicable. Removing motivation to participate by giving things away in easier ways takes away desire to improve or access that content as originally envisioned.

What do I mean by that? If you can get what you are interested in from raids without raiding, why bother with creating or running raids? If all you are interested in is lore, there are plenty of youtube videos to deliver what you are asking for here.

If you are only interested in “seeing the content” (an argument used by WoW players to justify LFR level raids), you can find ways to do it that don’t involve lowering or removing difficulty.

There are many side effects to giving access to raid-only content (including lore) without actually having to do the raid. This is rampantly on display in WoW as a direct result of the LFR system by the way. Some of these side effects include a decline in participation for content, a decline in player base skill, a decline in player base desire to clear content, and perhaps most detrimental – an expectation that because you have the game you are entitled to everything in said game regardless of dedication, skill, desire, ability, or even play time.

I realize that WoW and GW2 are different games. I also realize that the aforementioned side effects took years to develop into the monster currently there. It is a slippery slope, and if Anet starts down it, it will not be stopped.

tldr: I think raid-only content is not just fine, but is necessary for the health of the game and the game mode.

Edit: This is coming from someone that has not done any of the raid content yet, but would like to get started.

Nope Raids don’t need an Easy or Story mode and the Devs seem to agree, and they have actual numbers to back their design philosophy on this. If it was as big of an issue has the extremely small group of people posting on the forums says it is then the Devs would have implemented and easy/story mode already.

And to the people claiming that their are gates and barriers to Raid, all you need are

10 Level 80 players.
Exotics
And time and patience to learn the mechanics, all of which are easily learned in the Raid encounters or even more easily with a few searches on google.

Nothing else is required to Raid absolutely nothing else, not even VoIP

Hockmed.9417:

What do I mean by that? If you can get what you are interested in from raids without raiding, why bother with creating or running raids?

Good question. Why should you need to raid, if the thing you are interested in is not raid itself, but merely something that has been packaged together with it?

I have yet to hear a good answer to this one.

Good question. Why should you need to raid, if the thing you are interested in is not raid itself, but merely something that has been packaged together with it?

I have yet to hear a good answer to this one.

If it has been packaged in the raid, it is meant to be raid content. Why else would it be in the raid? It seems you are saying that if it isn’t a boss it shouldn’t be in the raid. That’s not good raid design. While rewards for killing a boss is good motivation, so is finding the lore specific to the raid and the raid story inside the raid.

Astralporing.1957:

Hockmed.9417:

What do I mean by that? If you can get what you are interested in from raids without raiding, why bother with creating or running raids?

Good question. Why should you need to raid, if the thing you are interested in is not raid itself, but merely something that has been packaged together with it?

I have yet to hear a good answer to this one.

Because certain things in games are always locked behind certain requirements and walls. Wether its a specific skin which is locked behind completing a from of challenging content or a title locked behind doing lots of a specific stuff or a glider locked behind a specific store or a mastery thats stuff you will have to deal with to get what you want. This system has existed for years in games and it creates longevity to the game and pushes ppl to try more things.

In the case of raids there is a number of things ppl find themselves interested in story/challenge/rewards pick your poison and ppl either do them or not depending on what they are after and how much they want to have it or experience it regardless of how much they like or dislike the other apspects of raids.

Raids also need to have a healthy balance between all to be successful and enjoyable. No one would raid if the boss was a cube with no model dialogue or textures and the raid was an empty room with no textures. Ppl will not raid if there are no good rewards for their trouble regardless of how good the lore was or the challenge. Ppl will not raid long term if the raid had only a good story to tell while the other needed stuff like challenge and rewards weren’t there.

The fact that raids tunerd out to have amazing lore or great rewards or fantastic encounters only adds up to the experience and should not be a reason to bash it for.

The raid is not only the challenge or the rewards or the story or what ever its the combination of the three and ppl find it so good because they experienced it the way it was supposed to.

Then comes again the issue of longevity. I will use as an example the first episode of lw3. Out of the shadows was really great it was awesome really good stuff really great dialuge locations etc. The story overall was legit i liked. Regardless of that tho i did the story once (minus some achievements here and there) and i was done with it i got no reason to go and touch it again i have experienced what i wanted to experience from it. Raids are a form of endgame there for replayability is a core factor for it to be successful if there was a story mode where you only get to experience the story then what the profit from that? How does that help the game mode in terms of longevity? How does it keep players interested?

I’ll end it with something Wp said a while back “…I enjoyed the story in wing 4 Because of the raid Because of the challenge…”

Blaeys.3102:

There is a reason this thread keeps naturally reoccuring on both these forums and on Reddit.

• A story mode would not detract from the difficulty of the experience in regular raid modes. Something you don’t see, experience or care to do does not impact what you are actually doing – common sense tells us that.

• This would – most likely – not take away one second from the development of the regular mode or any other content in the game. We know this because of the inclusion of “challenge motes” in the last raid wing. They could have simply made the challenge encounters the baseline ones and used the motes for something people were actually asking for – story or training access (hopefully repeatable, but if not, that is at least a step in the right direction). Almost no raider I know likes the way the challenge motes work now – so why not use those resources on something people have actually been asking for?

• (Almost) nobody is asking for the same rewards. Of course the more difficult encounters should offer greater rewards.

It is inevitable. They can only ignore these continual requests for so long before realizing they are just pushing people away (people that were once their biggest fans/financial supporters, in fact).

Ohoni and astralporing asked for the same rewards. Way back when.

EDIT: sorry my bad, you did say almost.

Ramoth.9064:

Blaeys.3102:

There is a reason this thread keeps naturally reoccuring on both these forums and on Reddit.

• A story mode would not detract from the difficulty of the experience in regular raid modes. Something you don’t see, experience or care to do does not impact what you are actually doing – common sense tells us that.

• This would – most likely – not take away one second from the development of the regular mode or any other content in the game. We know this because of the inclusion of “challenge motes” in the last raid wing. They could have simply made the challenge encounters the baseline ones and used the motes for something people were actually asking for – story or training access (hopefully repeatable, but if not, that is at least a step in the right direction). Almost no raider I know likes the way the challenge motes work now – so why not use those resources on something people have actually been asking for?

• (Almost) nobody is asking for the same rewards. Of course the more difficult encounters should offer greater rewards.

It is inevitable. They can only ignore these continual requests for so long before realizing they are just pushing people away (people that were once their biggest fans/financial supporters, in fact).

Ohoni and astralporing asked for the same rewards. Way back when.

EDIT: sorry my bad, you did say almost.

I definitely do not believe lower difficulties should give the same – or anywhere near the same – reward that actual high level raids do. In fact, I would be fine with a champion bag or, at the VERY most, a magnetite shard or two. It really is just about the experience and having something fun to do with my friends.

I think you will find a lot of people actually feel this way about it.

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

zoomborg.9462:

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?

(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).

Astralporing.1957:

zoomborg.9462:

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?

(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).

Yeah… almost like Raid target different people or something, Suprising, right?

It’s not like Raids are the only content in game, in most Mmos they have content that cater to a variety of player types/target audience, it’s no surprise that Anet did the same with GW2.

Astralporing.1957:

zoomborg.9462:

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?

(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).

So then….don’t raid. There’s still other content in the game that doesn’t offer the difficulty, dungeons, raids, open world gameplay, doing adventures, story missions, etc.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Astralporing.1957:

zoomborg.9462:

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?

(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).

So then….don’t raid. There’s still other content in the game that doesn’t offer the difficulty, dungeons, raids, open world gameplay, doing adventures, story missions, etc.

This is just a bad answer – and one we see repeated often by many arguing against tiered difficulty.

If the answer is “don’t” do the content, then there is a problem. All of those other game modes you mention – even PvP and WvW – the people who develop them all want MORE people playing them, not fewer. The idea that they developed any of those things for just a small percentage of the game population is ludicrous. It would be the sure-fire easiest way to make sure that game mode failed.

The same is true of raids. Designing it as the special snowflake mode in a game where that kind of design simply isnt the norm is just bad design.

Yes, people looking for a challenge need more content in this game – but implementing that content at expense of accessibility and player build diversity is taking the game in a new – and poorly thought out – direction. The answer is tiered difficulty across the board – making as much of the game as possible appealing to divergent playstyles without compromising on the others.

And, in raids, it is definitely possible (as illustrated by the use of challenge motes – just make the base line experience harder and use the motes to provide story or training access).

And, to the point about how people look at raids in other games. Keep in mind that, in other games (most anyway), this tiered system already exists. Believe it or not, that system gives the developers greater flexibility to make encounters in higher tiers MORE difficult, not less – because they don’t have to worry as much about how many people are playing the single mode version of the raid (as a side note, it would also open up raids as a viable storytelling tool in the game – allowing for more creative development there as well). If opponents to this idea started realizing this and were open to a little change, you might actually see raid encounters that are truly difficult.

Blaeys.3102:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Astralporing.1957:

zoomborg.9462:

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?

(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).

So then….don’t raid. There’s still other content in the game that doesn’t offer the difficulty, dungeons, raids, open world gameplay, doing adventures, story missions, etc.

This is just a bad answer – and one we see repeated often by many arguing against tiered difficulty.

If the answer is “don’t” do the content, then there is a problem. All of those other game modes you mention – even PvP and WvW – the people who develop them all want MORE people playing them, not fewer. The idea that they developed any of those things for just a small percentage of the game population is ludicrous. It would be the sure-fire easiest way to make sure that game mode failed.

The same is true of raids. Designing it as the special snowflake mode in a game where that kind of design simply isnt the norm is just bad design.

Yes, people looking for a challenge need more content in this game – but implementing that content at expense of accessibility and player build diversity is taking the game in a new – and poorly thought out – direction. The answer is tiered difficulty across the board – making as much of the game as possible appealing to divergent playstyles without compromising on the others.

And, in raids, it is definitely possible (as illustrated by the use of challenge motes – just make the base line experience harder and use the motes to provide story or training access).

And, to the point about how people look at raids in other games. Keep in mind that, in other games (most anyway), this tiered system already exists. Believe it or not, that system gives the developers greater flexibility to make encounters in higher tiers MORE difficult, not less – because they don’t have to worry as much about how many people are playing the single mode version of the raid (as a side note, it would also open up raids as a viable storytelling tool in the game – allowing for more creative development there as well). If opponents to this idea started realizing this and were open to a little change, you might actually see raid encounters that are truly difficult.

Genuine question here. Do you believe that wing 4 has already done this? I do. Except that it’s reverse of what you’ve mentioned. The base difficulty is the “easy mode” and the challenge motes are more difficult.

The differences between this option and what you’ve proposed is actually better for those who want an easier raiding tier.

1. Easy mode being the “normal” versus the “click this to activate easy mode” likely results in better rewards for the easier mode. If you as to activate the easy mode, I doubt ANET would give the same rewards that it currently gives.

2. You don’t have to limit your search for “easy mode” for finding players. By nature it is more straightforward to find groups for the mode that has no additional activation requirement.

If the fights were 100% exactly the same, but the easy mode was activated and the challenge note was base, would we still be having this conversation? I personally think we would simply because I don’t believe the “pro easy mode” community feels wing 4 is easy enough, which I disagree with.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Genuine question here. Do you believe that wing 4 has already done this? I do. Except that it’s reverse of what you’ve mentioned. The base difficulty is the “easy mode” and the challenge motes are more difficult.

The differences between this option and what you’ve proposed is actually better for those who want an easier raiding tier.

1. Easy mode being the “normal” versus the “click this to activate easy mode” likely results in better rewards for the easier mode. If you as to activate the easy mode, I doubt ANET would give the same rewards that it currently gives.

2. You don’t have to limit your search for “easy mode” for finding players. By nature it is more straightforward to find groups for the mode that has no additional activation requirement.

If the fights were 100% exactly the same, but the easy mode was activated and the challenge note was base, would we still be having this conversation? I personally think we would simply because I don’t believe the “pro easy mode” community feels wing 4 is easy enough, which I disagree with.

I understand your point (for 3 of the 4 fights in wing 4) – and I think for those three fights, we are close to where we should be – just not quite there. The problem is systemic rather than fight based. The raids are still balanced around the meta (as well they should be), creating a significant disparity between professions in the instance. I realize they are more forgiving, and that the meta isn’t required, but the gulf between top builds and bottom is still significant and limiting.

And, of course, there is still the last fight. Even if the first three could be considered easy mode, players would still be excluded from the story and experience of the wing because of that encounter. In order for your example to work, that fight would need an easier mode as well.

However, I still feel the issue isn’t about purely easy vs hard as much as it is about playstyle and build variety. Those players that enjoy the math of the game – or copying meta builds and rotations – enjoy raids in their current form. But, most players that don’t enjoy that kind of limiting playstyle find them tedious and frustrating.

The idea of tiered difficulty is about offering a less frustrating experience for those players who don’t enjoy min-maxing (and I realize any build can probably beat the raid in the hands of skilled players – that is not what we are talking about here – were talking about an enjoyable experience based on playstyle).

If that can be done without compromising the harder difficulties (which the challenge mote concept shows clearly they should be able to do), then it is silly not to do so.

Blaeys.3102:

This is just a bad answer – and one we see repeated often by many arguing against tiered difficulty.

If the answer is “don’t” do the content, then there is a problem. All of those other game modes you mention – even PvP and WvW – the people who develop them all want MORE people playing them, not fewer. The idea that they developed any of those things for just a small percentage of the game population is ludicrous. It would be the sure-fire easiest way to make sure that game mode failed.

To be accurate they want more people who enjoy the gamemode to play Them, not Just more. This is a distinctie difference because Just getting more people in a gamemode is easy, it’s Just not the best thing to do.

This was what happened with PVP in the previous season some people Just afking for rewards.

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Genuine question here. Do you believe that wing 4 has already done this? I do. Except that it’s reverse of what you’ve mentioned. The base difficulty is the “easy mode” and the challenge motes are more difficult.

The differences between this option and what you’ve proposed is actually better for those who want an easier raiding tier.

1. Easy mode being the “normal” versus the “click this to activate easy mode” likely results in better rewards for the easier mode. If you as to activate the easy mode, I doubt ANET would give the same rewards that it currently gives.

2. You don’t have to limit your search for “easy mode” for finding players. By nature it is more straightforward to find groups for the mode that has no additional activation requirement.

If the fights were 100% exactly the same, but the easy mode was activated and the challenge note was base, would we still be having this conversation? I personally think we would simply because I don’t believe the “pro easy mode” community feels wing 4 is easy enough, which I disagree with.

I understand your point (for 3 of the 4 fights in wing 4) – and I think for those three fights, we are close to where we should be – just not quite there. The problem is systemic rather than fight based. The raids are still balanced around the meta (as well they should be), creating a significant disparity between professions in the instance. I realize they are more forgiving, and that the meta isn’t required, but the gulf between top builds and bottom is still significant and limiting.

And, of course, there is still the last fight. Even if the first three could be considered easy mode, players would still be excluded from the story and experience of the wing because of that encounter. In order for your example to work, that fight would need an easier mode as well.

However, I still feel the issue isn’t about purely easy vs hard as much as it is about playstyle and build variety. Those players that enjoy the math of the game – or copying meta builds and rotations – enjoy raids in their current form. But, most players that don’t enjoy that kind of limiting playstyle find them tedious and frustrating.

The idea of tiered difficulty is about offering a less frustrating experience for those players who don’t enjoy min-maxing (and I realize any build can probably beat the raid in the hands of skilled players – that is not what we are talking about here – were talking about an enjoyable experience based on playstyle).

If that can be done without compromising the harder difficulties (which the challenge mote concept shows clearly they should be able to do), then it is silly not to do so.

Interesting points. Being an engineer in real life, my brain is hardwired to always think about the math and the optimization. In reality. All PVE is math. PVE is simply “kill the creature before it kills you.” The bigger damage numbers you do, the more quickly that happens.

To me, the problem with the “bring whatever play style you want” is that those tend to error on the side of builds where the computer cannot kill you. You rarely hear about folks who never look up a meta build but just happen to pick Zerk/Scholar. More often they want their full solider/rabid builds to be viable (and in reality they are, but like you mentioned I’m not going to really consider what gear qT could use lol).

I can imagine as a developer it is very difficult to design an encounter that is challenging for those who play builds that are offensive and those who want to play builds where you are invincible. Can every fight just have 1 shot mechanics so invincible builds arent invincible? Why even take defensive stats then?

It is also likely that those who played the more offensive/meta builds regularly are simply better players. This is due to the core design of GW2, damage avoidance versus damage mitigation. Being a better player and never getting hit by the AI is the name of the game for gw2, and many of the raiders have been doing this for years. Where as many other games have high unavoidable damage that require a greater mathematical defense on your character in order to survive.

I also never understood the strong desire in this game to be attached to your build/gear. Whether or not you have solders or zerker is just math…It has no feelings towards you. Why have feelings towards it? Like anyone asking you “would you like $10 or $20 for free?” Of course you always pick the better one.

Kind of a scrambled rant, but even in an easy mode I personally feel like it would be a large development challenge to design content that has an appropriate amount of challenge for all of the vast build diversity in this game simply due to how strong damage avoidance is versus building for damage mitigation

yann.1946:

To be accurate they want more people who enjoy the gamemode to play Them, not Just more.

Yes, that’s how it should be. Except the only way to get that is to make the gamemode enjoyable to a wider group of players. Using primarily exclusive rewards to entice more players will only cause the situation where, of the people doing the content, less people would enjoy it.

yann.1946:

This is a distinctie difference because Just getting more people in a gamemode is easy, it’s Just not the best thing to do.

Agreed. And, since you can’t change players’ likes and dislikes, you can only change the content.

ButterPeanut.9746:

I also never understood the strong desire in this game to be attached to your build/gear. Whether or not you have solders or zerker is just math…It has no feelings towards you. Why have feelings towards it?

Most ofteh the feeling people have are not for the builds themselves, but for the need to regear for different content/after a balance patch. The cost to do it for some may be a pocket change, but for the majority of players it’s not that cheap or convenient at all.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Like anyone asking you “would you like $10 or $20 for free?” Of course you always pick the better one.

In such a case, why the first option even exists?

ButterPeanut.9746:

Kind of a scrambled rant, but even in an easy mode I personally feel like it would be a large development challenge to design content that has an appropriate amount of challenge for all of the vast build diversity in this game simply due to how strong damage avoidance is versus building for damage mitigation

That depends on your goal and the level of players you’d want to balance for. Though, in general, yeah, the inherent faults of the core combat system create some really serious problems for anyone trying to balance this game.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Interesting points. Being an engineer in real life, my brain is hardwired to always think about the math and the optimization. In reality. All PVE is math. PVE is simply “kill the creature before it kills you.” The bigger damage numbers you do, the more quickly that happens.

To me, the problem with the “bring whatever play style you want” is that those tend to error on the side of builds where the computer cannot kill you. You rarely hear about folks who never look up a meta build but just happen to pick Zerk/Scholar. More often they want their full solider/rabid builds to be viable (and in reality they are, but like you mentioned I’m not going to really consider what gear qT could use lol).

I can imagine as a developer it is very difficult to design an encounter that is challenging for those who play builds that are offensive and those who want to play builds where you are invincible. Can every fight just have 1 shot mechanics so invincible builds arent invincible? Why even take defensive stats then?

It is also likely that those who played the more offensive/meta builds regularly are simply better players. This is due to the core design of GW2, damage avoidance versus damage mitigation. Being a better player and never getting hit by the AI is the name of the game for gw2, and many of the raiders have been doing this for years. Where as many other games have high unavoidable damage that require a greater mathematical defense on your character in order to survive.

I also never understood the strong desire in this game to be attached to your build/gear. Whether or not you have solders or zerker is just math…It has no feelings towards you. Why have feelings towards it? Like anyone asking you “would you like $10 or $20 for free?” Of course you always pick the better one.

Kind of a scrambled rant, but even in an easy mode I personally feel like it would be a large development challenge to design content that has an appropriate amount of challenge for all of the vast build diversity in this game simply due to how strong damage avoidance is versus building for damage mitigation

First of all, thank you for being open minded and arguing the point in rational manner. That is rarer than most would think.

I understand your points but still believe it is possible. Simply experiment with removing or toning down specific mechanics (primarily any that rely on high dps) and then make that the story or training mote version. With minimal time (probably less than what went into the CM modes we have now in wing 4), I think it could be done.

To the point of watering the fight down to the point where it can’t kill you, I honestly believe that a happy medium can be found – one closer to low/mid level fractals or COE/Arah level dungeons. But even if I’m wrong – and it has be paper thin easy – it would be worth doing (even though, again, I would rather have something in the middle).

Adding to raids in such a way that brings in new blood and opens the experience/story/etc to more casual players is crucial to the success of the game mode, imo.

Astralporing.1957:

yann.1946:

To be accurate they want more people who enjoy the gamemode to play Them, not Just more.

Yes, that’s how it should be. Except the only way to get that is to make the gamemode enjoyable to a wider group of players. Using primarily exclusive rewards to entice more players will only cause the situation where, of the people doing the content, less people would enjoy it.

yann.1946:

This is a distinctie difference because Just getting more people in a gamemode is easy, it’s Just not the best thing to do.

Agreed. And, since you can’t change players’ likes and dislikes, you can only change the content.

I personaly find that a little weird. Shouldn,’t by thats logic also pvp and wvw be changed more to pve because their not doing thats great as gamemode s? I think the gamemode should be changed to be more enjoyablefor the target audience not for someone Else.

Astralporing.1957:

zoomborg.9462:

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?

(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).

gw2 was never advertised as the faceroll easy game you make it out to be.

zealex.9410:

Astralporing.1957:

zoomborg.9462:

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?

(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).

gw2 was never advertised as the faceroll easy game you make it out to be.

No, but that’s the game it started out being and that’s the market it appealed to. Even Dungeons, the hardest content at the time of release, were not hard by industry standards.

Obtena.7952:

zealex.9410:

Astralporing.1957:

zoomborg.9462:

There are games out there that have 2-3 times harder content than GW2 raids. On those forums usually people ask how to progress in the content. Strategies, advice, tips……
Here people asked for things to be catered to them. It’s embarassing really….

Yeah… almost like those games were targeted at different people or something…
Surprising, right?

(When i want to play a hard game, i play a hard game. GW2 i play for completely different reasons however).

gw2 was never advertised as the faceroll easy game you make it out to be.

No, but that’s the game it started out being and that’s the market it appealed to. Even Dungeons, the hardest content at the time of release, were not hard by industry standards.

Thats why they nerfed them after some time and ppl were buying arah paths for 5 or 10g? What something started doesnt mean this is what the devs want it to be also. A company needs to advertise to a big audience so yeah and diff parts of the playerbase have diff niches and like diff things i like the pvp armors and backpiece that doesnt mean i ask for an ez way to get them so i go through the trouble of pvping for it. The devs have also increase te diff in the entire pve part of the game with harder mobs encounters and w/e meaning the want to raise the skill lvl of the average player.

Blaeys.3102:

ButterPeanut.9746:

Interesting points. Being an engineer in real life, my brain is hardwired to always think about the math and the optimization. In reality. All PVE is math. PVE is simply “kill the creature before it kills you.” The bigger damage numbers you do, the more quickly that happens.

To me, the problem with the “bring whatever play style you want” is that those tend to error on the side of builds where the computer cannot kill you. You rarely hear about folks who never look up a meta build but just happen to pick Zerk/Scholar. More often they want their full solider/rabid builds to be viable (and in reality they are, but like you mentioned I’m not going to really consider what gear qT could use lol).

I can imagine as a developer it is very difficult to design an encounter that is challenging for those who play builds that are offensive and those who want to play builds where you are invincible. Can every fight just have 1 shot mechanics so invincible builds arent invincible? Why even take defensive stats then?

It is also likely that those who played the more offensive/meta builds regularly are simply better players. This is due to the core design of GW2, damage avoidance versus damage mitigation. Being a better player and never getting hit by the AI is the name of the game for gw2, and many of the raiders have been doing this for years. Where as many other games have high unavoidable damage that require a greater mathematical defense on your character in order to survive.

I also never understood the strong desire in this game to be attached to your build/gear. Whether or not you have solders or zerker is just math…It has no feelings towards you. Why have feelings towards it? Like anyone asking you “would you like $10 or $20 for free?” Of course you always pick the better one.

Kind of a scrambled rant, but even in an easy mode I personally feel like it would be a large development challenge to design content that has an appropriate amount of challenge for all of the vast build diversity in this game simply due to how strong damage avoidance is versus building for damage mitigation

First of all, thank you for being open minded and arguing the point in rational manner. That is rarer than most would think.

I understand your points but still believe it is possible. Simply experiment with removing or toning down specific mechanics (primarily any that rely on high dps) and then make that the story or training mote version. With minimal time (probably less than what went into the CM modes we have now in wing 4), I think it could be done.

To the point of watering the fight down to the point where it can’t kill you, I honestly believe that a happy medium can be found – one closer to low/mid level fractals or COE/Arah level dungeons. But even if I’m wrong – and it has be paper thin easy – it would be worth doing (even though, again, I would rather have something in the middle).

Adding to raids in such a way that brings in new blood and opens the experience/story/etc to more casual players is crucial to the success of the game mode, imo.

I agree with you except that sounds like you don’t believe this has already happened. Its impossible to measure, but just based on my play through I would put the first 3 bosses in w4 around a tier 2-tier 3 fractal difficulty. By “difficulty” I mean the mechanical skill of the player required to complete the content and the amount of room for error based on enrage timers and enrage mechanics.

I also don’t think it is unreasonable for the last boss to be more difficult, even in the “easy mode”. Getting “new blood” into the game mode doesn’t mean catering all encounters so that person with “new blood” can change nothing about their build, playstyle, group comp, player skill, etc and still succeed indefinitely. Getting “new blood” into the game mode simply means having enough of a “hook” for the more casual audience to retain and increase their interest in the content. If they have that “hook” down to retain casual players interest and then future encounters are more tightly tuned to require a better group comp, player skill, build, etc…then the “easy mode” was a success.

ButterPeanut.9746:

I agree with you except that sounds like you don’t believe this has already happened. Its impossible to measure, but just based on my play through I would put the first 3 bosses in w4 around a tier 2-tier 3 fractal difficulty. By “difficulty” I mean the mechanical skill of the player required to complete the content and the amount of room for error based on enrage timers and enrage mechanics.

I also don’t think it is unreasonable for the last boss to be more difficult, even in the “easy mode”. Getting “new blood” into the game mode doesn’t mean catering all encounters so that person with “new blood” can change nothing about their build, playstyle, group comp, player skill, etc and still succeed indefinitely. Getting “new blood” into the game mode simply means having enough of a “hook” for the more casual audience to retain and increase their interest in the content. If they have that “hook” down to retain casual players interest and then future encounters are more tightly tuned to require a better group comp, player skill, build, etc…then the “easy mode” was a success.

If the idea of an easy mode were just to ease people into raids, I would agree, but I think the need is deeper than that. It is about opening the experience to a greater variety of playstyles/builds etc.

And, yes, a big part of it is degrees. I do not feel the first three fights work to open raiding to more people. For a good example, I would look instead at the difficulty of the escort event starting wing three. I know it isnt a proper boss fight (even though there is a sort of boss at the end), but it still works for what I’m discussing.

For the system to work however, it needs to be across the board. Otherwise, the story and experience is still very limited in terms of target audience – and I dont believe that will be healthy for the future of raiding in general.

yann.1946:

I think the gamemode should be changed to be more enjoyablefor the target audience not for someone Else.

First you’d want that audience be big enough to support the gamemode. That is why Anet is messing so much with sPvP lately, even sometimes against wishes of pvp veterans. A gamemode that depends completely on a small number of veterans and lack a steady influx of new players is a gamemode that will either be changed eventually, or get abandoned completely.

And we lack a decent way to obtain those numbers and what threshold Anet uses to consider it as successful.

Its time for Anet to look at history and understand the mistakes already made and solved by the 800lb. gorilla, WoW. WoW’s implementation of LFR has been very successful, and there is absolutely no reason why Anet has not yet implemented an LFR system with easier raids that give reduced rewards (ie: less Ascended currency and no path to Legendary Armor through the LFR). That way, casual players are more likely to complete the content, get something for their effort AND see the story. The only argument against this is some weird elitist mental block… which makes no sense since those that complete the real raid will be rewarded more, and have the opportunity for prestigious legendary armor.

Bhima.9518:

Its time for Anet to look at history and understand the mistakes already made and solved by the 800lb. gorilla, WoW. WoW’s implementation of LFR has been very successful, and there is absolutely no reason why Anet has not yet implemented an LFR system with easier raids that give reduced rewards (ie: less Ascended currency and no path to Legendary Armor through the LFR). That way, casual players are more likely to complete the content, get something for their effort AND see the story. The only argument against this is some weird elitist mental block… which makes no sense since those that complete the real raid will be rewarded more, and have the opportunity for prestigious legendary armor.

I’m personally against easy mode for raids, but if it was to be implemented, the rewards should never include mini’s, the unique ascended weapons or magnetite shards. Those unique raid rewards should remain only for those who defeat the raidcontent.

Bhima.9518:

Its time for Anet to look at history and understand the mistakes already made and solved by the 800lb. gorilla, WoW. WoW’s implementation of LFR has been very successful, and there is absolutely no reason why Anet has not yet implemented an LFR system with easier raids that give reduced rewards (ie: less Ascended currency and no path to Legendary Armor through the LFR). That way, casual players are more likely to complete the content, get something for their effort AND see the story. The only argument against this is some weird elitist mental block… which makes no sense since those that complete the real raid will be rewarded more, and have the opportunity for prestigious legendary armor.

Big Difference between WoW and Gw2 and that being WoW is almost exclusively built around Raids as the main driving force for Story, GW2’s main story is from Living Story seasons. And has a multitude of different end game content between open world, Fractals Raids Living Story etc.

Raids were released solely at the behest of Players that wanted a challenge, Anet agreed and made Raids, now the people that didn’t want Raids to begin with are tying to turn Raids into easy mode content which they were never intended to be or requested to be by the Target audience, it’s not like Casuals don’t have a multitude of other End game content that specifically targets them as the audience, it’s not like the main GW2 story is locked behind Raids.

When making comparison between different things make sure that what you are comparing are remotely similar, which in the WoW raids vs Gw2 raids they are not even close to the same when it comes to the intent behind them.

Not everything in game is meant for everybody hence why each content is directed at different target audiences.

Bhima.9518:

… there is absolutely no reason why Anet has not yet implemented an LFR system….

Actually, there is. They did not intend for Raids to be available or cater to everyone. Raids have a clear design goal, and that is to be the most challenging content in the game, and anything that makes it easier goes against that design goal.

It could be argued that that goal should be changed or altered, but that is a different argument altogether.