Guild Wars 2

Well IF they were to do an easy mode, probably the easiest way would be to just remove the enrage timer. Or at least I think it would be the easiest because how hard can it be to remove the timer (rhetorical question)?

Ayrilana.1396:

Well IF they were to do an easy mode, probably the easiest way would be to just remove the enrage timer. Or at least I think it would be the easiest because how hard can it be to remove the timer (rhetorical question)?

Enrage timers are easy to beat if your team has practised their DPS rotations like they’re supposed to.

The problem is still people screwing up mechanics.

Blaeys.3102:

Youre making assumptions and arguing against based on what people might ask for next. That isnt really a logical argument against anything as it is simply assuming the worst of people.

It’s naive to think that these kinds of threads won’t come out. We have that ‘Fish’ thread on the General Discussion, or ‘Can we nerf the HoT Metas’ in the Expansion Subforum. The extent of what players might ask for is ANYTHING. Heck there’s been a couple threads asking for making something of a ‘Pay to Win’ option for GW2.

I would wager between both our ‘guesses’ about half or more would be correct, I would wager gems on it.

Blaeys.3102:

None of these things preclude the desire for this change – and, if it came to it, I would be the first in line to argue against LI rewards (or anything else substantially close to what the top difficulty offers) in a story mode version of the raid.

Almost no one is asking for that. I know it would be much easier to argue against easy modes if they were, but it just isnt the case.

I know you do realize that there is a substantial voice for the easy-modes being an alternative for these rewards. For instance, Raiders have given their opinion a while ago about not being opposed to having Legendary Armor being made available in another area of the game (a different skin though) and that simply isn’t enough apparently.

You might have a good intention for this mode, but like a line of dominoes if easy-mode comes down, everything else starts to as well and while you might immediately oppose giving out said rewards…

There will be dozens more coming out of the woodwork using the opportunity to demand more.

It’s kind of how these forums work. The bar is set that low because the threads that are made are that low.

Fatalyz.7168:

Baseleader.4128:

Almost every game ever, locks parts of its game behind a certain barrier of difficulty or accomplishment. In other games you may need to adapt your playstyle or character to be able to continue the game. I don’t understand why this is acceptable in other games, yet in GW2 everything needs to be accessible to everyone?
– SNIP -

Because GW2 at launch, everything in PVE was available to everyone, the only barrier being time investment.

Even if that’s the case, (I think it’s debateable) that doesn’t mean that the intention was for GW2 to persist like this. We can’t sit here and claim that because the game has changed since release, that this is unreasonable because it’s different than how it was when it was released.

Sykper.6583:

Blaeys.3102:

Youre making assumptions and arguing against based on what people might ask for next. That isnt really a logical argument against anything as it is simply assuming the worst of people.

It’s naive to think that these kinds of threads won’t come out. We have that ‘Fish’ thread on the General Discussion, or ‘Can we nerf the HoT Metas’ in the Expansion Subforum. The extent of what players might ask for is ANYTHING. Heck there’s been a couple threads asking for making something of a ‘Pay to Win’ option for GW2.

I would wager between both our ‘guesses’ about half or more would be correct, I would wager gems on it.

Blaeys.3102:

None of these things preclude the desire for this change – and, if it came to it, I would be the first in line to argue against LI rewards (or anything else substantially close to what the top difficulty offers) in a story mode version of the raid.

Almost no one is asking for that. I know it would be much easier to argue against easy modes if they were, but it just isnt the case.

I know you do realize that there is a substantial voice for the easy-modes being an alternative for these rewards. For instance, Raiders have given their opinion a while ago about not being opposed to having Legendary Armor being made available in another area of the game (a different skin though) and that simply isn’t enough apparently.

You might have a good intention for this mode, but like a line of dominoes if easy-mode comes down, everything else starts to as well and while you might immediately oppose giving out said rewards…

There will be dozens more coming out of the woodwork using the opportunity to demand more.

It’s kind of how these forums work. The bar is set that low because the threads that are made are that low.

If they had to worry about what the community might ask for next, nothing would ever get changed.

And, so what if those threads come out. It doesnt mean we can’t argue the pros and cons of this change now.

And, AGAIN, if they ever did implement story modes and people started crying for LIs or other raid exclusive rewards in the mode, I can promise I will be right there with you explaining why it is a bad idea – a stance many I know in favor of story modes would agree with. This is about opening the experience – possibly with some minor reward to justify time away from open world (champ bag and, at most, maybe a magnetite shard or two to help players gear for the more difficult versions). It is not about getting access to legendary armor or unique raid related skins.

Yobculture.5786:

Ayrilana.1396:

Well IF they were to do an easy mode, probably the easiest way would be to just remove the enrage timer. Or at least I think it would be the easiest because how hard can it be to remove the timer (rhetorical question)?

Enrage timers are easy to beat if your team has practised their DPS rotations like they’re supposed to.

The problem is still people screwing up mechanics.

I know. It was more of a way to quiet those that actually think the enrage timer matters when most of the fails are because they fail the mechanics.

Blaeys.3102:

And, AGAIN, if they ever did implement story modes and people started crying for LIs or other raid exclusive rewards in the mode, I can promise I will be right there with you explaining why it is a bad idea – a stance many I know in favor of story modes would agree with. This is about opening the experience – possibly with some minor reward to justify time away from open world (champ bag and, at most, maybe a magnetite shard or two to help players gear for the more difficult versions). It is not about getting access to legendary armor or unique raid related skins.

I’ve simply expressed what needed to be said.

At this juncture, Arenanet are the only ones who can make this judgment. There’s no doubt they have considered these possibilities.

Silently waves at the Devs reading this thread

I’ll be OK with whatever they decide is the best for their game, as long as they continue to bring out more raid content alongside everything else in this game. And I hope they take what they have learned from this first set of raids and expand upon it further, both in difficulty and creativity, down the road.

I also wouldn’t be against more gritty story, the Living Story and Raid Story have both been phenomenal, I really like the direction so far.

Sykper.6583:

I know you do realize that there is a substantial voice for the easy-modes being an alternative for these rewards. For instance, Raiders have given their opinion a while ago about not being opposed to having Legendary Armor being made available in another area of the game (a different skin though) and that simply isn’t enough apparently.

It’s not enough, because, let’s be honest, what are the chances of Anet doing a second set of legendary armor anytime soon, considering how long it takes them to do the current one?

If there was an actual, real chance of getting a second set of legendary armor throughout non-raid means, lot of complains would go down. Unfortunately, that chance currently is somewhere around nil.

Ayrilana.1396:

Yobculture.5786:

Ayrilana.1396:

Well IF they were to do an easy mode, probably the easiest way would be to just remove the enrage timer. Or at least I think it would be the easiest because how hard can it be to remove the timer (rhetorical question)?

Enrage timers are easy to beat if your team has practised their DPS rotations like they’re supposed to.

The problem is still people screwing up mechanics.

I know. It was more of a way to quiet those that actually think the enrage timer matters when most of the fails are because they fail the mechanics.

It obviously does matter, just perhaps not in the way people expect it to. Its not like they have no function.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Ayrilana.1396:

Yobculture.5786:

Ayrilana.1396:

Well IF they were to do an easy mode, probably the easiest way would be to just remove the enrage timer. Or at least I think it would be the easiest because how hard can it be to remove the timer (rhetorical question)?

Enrage timers are easy to beat if your team has practised their DPS rotations like they’re supposed to.

The problem is still people screwing up mechanics.

I know. It was more of a way to quiet those that actually think the enrage timer matters when most of the fails are because they fail the mechanics.

It obviously does matter, just perhaps not in the way people expect it to. Its not like they have no function.

The only people who think the timers are even a problem are those that either don’t raid or go with utter newbies who don’t know the encounters. The timer is not why people fail 99% of the time

The one to Rule.2593:

The only people who think the timers are even a problem are those that either don’t raid or go with utter newbies who don’t know the encounters. The timer is not why people fail 99% of the time

Agreed. Inexperienced and unskilled groups rarely ever last long enough for this to be an issue, in my experience.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think a straight up easy mode is necessary. But there could be some small concessions made to make the content less hectic. I’ve come up with a couple ideas, to broaden this discussion a little

→ Potions, similar to those in fractals, offering +25% buffs to damage, defence and mobility across the board. These could be sold at the raid vendor for magnetite shards and gold (thus indirectly reducing the overall reward and offering an incentive to at least try a few bosses the normal way first)

→ Perhaps also add practice motes that disable the enrage timer and give one free resurrect after dying (like the mistlock singularity) and of course reduce the reward for each boss beaten under its effects.

→ A raid helper NPC golem that can be hired at the beginning of the instance that does a small amount of damage to bosses and healing to players, while maintaining
boons consistently. It would randomly take half of all rewards from each successful encounter (shards, gold and drops) as a fee for it’s handler.

Ayrilana.1396:

Its sole purpose was to give players that want a challenge just that. Raids entire existence is for those that wanted a challenge. Adding a story mode changes that purpose.

Meh. Raids are just content. Like everything else in the game. Sure, the devs have a vision for content they create and the marketing guys add a slew of buzz words to jazz it all up, but on the player side there is no inherent value or purpose to anything in the game. It’s all just stuff to do.

The one to Rule.2593:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Ayrilana.1396:

Yobculture.5786:

Ayrilana.1396:

Well IF they were to do an easy mode, probably the easiest way would be to just remove the enrage timer. Or at least I think it would be the easiest because how hard can it be to remove the timer (rhetorical question)?

Enrage timers are easy to beat if your team has practised their DPS rotations like they’re supposed to.

The problem is still people screwing up mechanics.

I know. It was more of a way to quiet those that actually think the enrage timer matters when most of the fails are because they fail the mechanics.

It obviously does matter, just perhaps not in the way people expect it to. Its not like they have no function.

The only people who think the timers are even a problem are those that either don’t raid or go with utter newbies who don’t know the encounters. The timer is not why people fail 99% of the time

Yeah I don’t think it makes it the encounter all that much easier either. I’m just saying that they do matter as they do force player to play in a certain way. Just staying alive alone with more defensive strategies is the only thing that would open up without the enrage timers. Dps and rotations would matter less as you can just focus on staying alive as well.

Though yeah, unlikely to be enough for people to be happy with tbat alone as an easymode.

I am all for a story mode. Something that allows people to experience the story without the need to do pretty much anything. If that is how some players like to have their story served to them, fine by me. All about the story, with little rewards in terms of items, no currency, etc and of course zero challenge.

However, I also wish to stop there with making anything in raids easier. If they were to further develop certain bosses then I’d suggest adding a good challenge mode to all of them instead. The current benchmark set by most normal modes is already pretty low.

Henry.5713:

I am all for a story mode. Something that allows people to experience the story without the need to do pretty much anything. If that is how some players like to have their story served to them, fine by me. All about the story, with little rewards in terms of items, no currency, etc and of course zero challenge.

However, I also wish to stop there with making anything in raids easier. If they were to further develop certain bosses then I’d suggest adding a good challenge mode to all of them instead. The current benchmark set by most normal modes is already pretty low.

And its set that low becouse they want to try and get more people to raid, hence why this discussion is going on to make two diffrent modes mate.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Andovar Edoras.2143:

So i was watching W.P.‘s videos about the lore of the currently released raid wings, particularly the latest one.. And it just makes me feel so sad that as a person who loves stories and lore, i’m completely locked out from the immersion and the tale because i cannot play this 10-man system which focuses on difficult and coordinated combat..

Please explain why you cannot do this? Is there some extraterrestrial force that has control of your mind and body that is preventing you?

You can raid. Everyone can. If you choose not to, it is simply that, an active choice made by the player to not do some part of the content. Saying that you are “locked out and cannot do it” makes it appear like the player has no say in the matter and that by definition and random chance you are locked out of content you want. NO! You have the power to make choices that could lead to seeing the content in the raid, and you chose to not go down that path. It’s 100% on you.

Get a group and play wing 4, it is easy enough for anyone who can do mid to low level fractals. It doesn’t need to be any easier.

There are people who play this game who have actual REAL handicaps that YES might make them actually physically and mentally incapable of reaching the skill level necessary for completing the raids. Get your head out of your own kitten.

Chris McSwag.4683:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Remember how immersive is the Zaithan fight on the story mode? No? So yeah thats how immersive an easy boss is.

Then don’t play the Easy Mode boss, play your normal mode Raid.

Thats the point. An easy mode boss has none of the immersion “story-mode”-advocates ask for, hence it is a waste of time to develop it.

You don’t have to even change the damage numbers, or a single one of the mechanics, to make a story mode. The only numbers you have to change are max HP and maybe toughness. Every enemy and boss can still hit exactly as hard as they do, just make it less of a DPS check to complete so that you don’t have to grind for best gear and practice to optimize DPS to complete the story mode, and it can serve as training for mechanics if people might want to get in to the raids later. No reason to nerf everything, just make the amount of DPS you have to hit as a group more in line with an average five man dungeon group.

Sojourner.4621:

You don’t have to even change the damage numbers, or a single one of the mechanics, to make a story mode. The only numbers you have to change are max HP and maybe toughness. Every enemy and boss can still hit exactly as hard as they do, just make it less of a DPS check to complete so that you don’t have to grind for best gear and practice to optimize DPS to complete the story mode, and it can serve as training for mechanics if people might want to get in to the raids later. No reason to nerf everything, just make the amount of DPS you have to hit as a group more in line with an average five man dungeon group.

you can complete raids in exotics i think ppl have done it with yellows and greens too…

zealex.9410:

Sojourner.4621:

You don’t have to even change the damage numbers, or a single one of the mechanics, to make a story mode. The only numbers you have to change are max HP and maybe toughness. Every enemy and boss can still hit exactly as hard as they do, just make it less of a DPS check to complete so that you don’t have to grind for best gear and practice to optimize DPS to complete the story mode, and it can serve as training for mechanics if people might want to get in to the raids later. No reason to nerf everything, just make the amount of DPS you have to hit as a group more in line with an average five man dungeon group.

you can complete raids in exotics i think ppl have done it with yellows and greens too…

Of course people can and have done exactly that, but those people were – most probably – people who had already done the fight in ascended and mastered every aspect of the fight. It’s the same concept that applies to groups that have done it with 8 people or killed it in half the time. Those are the exceptions – not the rule.

More importantly, trying to compare those situations to average players – and especially to players looking to just enjoy the content without the build and composition micromanagement – is disingenuous at best.

The issue isnt about gear. It isnt even really about hard versus easy. It is about providing a realistically fun experience for a wider range of PVE players – so they can enjoy the story (even if it is a “side story” or minimal) and the experience of the raid. That is very much lacking from the current raid model – and needs to be remedied.

As a-net showed in the april fool patch note they know that the complaints and even for then having a infatile raid mode where you just reduce the hp and damage is a joke.

Just look up the story on youtube. I did for the newest wing, as that is all I cared about.

OnizukaBR.8537:

As a-net showed in the april fool patch note they know that the complaints and even for then having a infatile raid mode where you just reduce the hp and damage is a joke.

Please don’t tell me you’re making an argument based on an April Fools Day joke. That is tunnel vision at its most extreme.

At this point, I have to believe that Anet sees they have a problem with raids and accessibility, and that they need to do something to fix it before it has a detrimental impact on the game.

And of course the answer isn’t simply to reduce everything by half. That would be arbitrary, poorly thought out and worthy of a little April 1 humor.

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

As a-net showed in the april fool patch note they know that the complaints and even for then having a infatile raid mode where you just reduce the hp and damage is a joke.

Please don’t tell me you’re making an argument based on an April Fools Day joke. That is tunnel vision at its most extreme.

At this point, I have to believe that Anet sees they have a problem with raids and accessibility, and that they need to do something to fix it before it has a detrimental impact on the game.

And of course the answer isn’t simply to reduce everything by half. That would be arbitrary, poorly thought out and worthy of a little April 1 humor.

And you made arguments based in what you believe without any data to back it up. Claiming that something need to be fixed, something that are working better then intended, as anet stated when they got the first raid data.

So you are the one that make doom calls based only in your beliefe and claim that as hard truth, which clearly isnt.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

As a-net showed in the april fool patch note they know that the complaints and even for then having a infatile raid mode where you just reduce the hp and damage is a joke.

Please don’t tell me you’re making an argument based on an April Fools Day joke. That is tunnel vision at its most extreme.

At this point, I have to believe that Anet sees they have a problem with raids and accessibility, and that they need to do something to fix it before it has a detrimental impact on the game.

And of course the answer isn’t simply to reduce everything by half. That would be arbitrary, poorly thought out and worthy of a little April 1 humor.

And you made arguments based in what you believe without any data to back it up. Claiming that something need to be fixed, something that are working better then intended, as anet stated when they got the first raid data.

So you are the one that make doom calls based only in your beliefe and claim that as hard truth, which clearly isnt.

I state my opinion based on personal experience and discussions with other players – here, on reddit, on fansites and, most importantly ingame/in guild. It is no more devious or complicated than that. I never claim to have insight into how many people are raiding, how many favor a story mode vs the people who are opposed to one, etc. And it definitely isnt a doom call. I simply believe that the way they are implementing raids represents a significant shift from the rest of the game – a shift that many, like myself, find offputting.

An April Fools Day joke, by definition, is meant to whimsical, meaning it is literally done on a whim (most likely by a single writer – and definitely with little thought toward anything serious). To try and equate that to the development team taking a stance on a topic is beyond silly.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

• A story mode would not detract from the difficulty of the experience in regular raid modes.

First, we have a developer response on the topic here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first
Which says they are discussing it, nothing final, nothing actually being developed, but there is internal discussion about it. I’m sure when they have more to say they will and no amount of asking will make them discuss it faster, especially in threads that ask for an easy mode and stop there. “I want an easier mode” isn’t very constructive, nor useful for the developers. Actual suggestions on how to do it can expedite the process but a simple “I want” isn’t going to do a thing.

Second, the thread topic is about adding an easy mode for story, which means some way for all players to experience the story of Raids, removing Raid specific rewards.
The main issue with a story mode version is that it can become Arah story mode number 2. Worthless to run outside the story, so you run once and forget it even exists, then it gets hard to get people to run it with. I’m sure this is one of the most important problems with a story version, how do you make it not-useless while at the same time allow players of really low skills to complete? It’s a contradiction

There have been multiple suggestions on how to do this without being a waste of time:

Spectator mode

In some HoT instances, when you join another’s story, you fly around as this blue glowing ball since you’re not technically there according to the story.
So maybe similar can be applied here. You can interact with the npcs of the raid but are immune to damage, cant cast anything, and work outside the 10-person limit.

With this one, it will take the minimal amount of work to do (unless it’s hard to port the pvp spectator mode into pve, I don’t know how their coding works) and requires no reward balance at all. Also, some form of training can be achieved here as you watch how other players play in a live environment. This is probably the easiest method but is it worth it compared to watching a video on youtube?

Raid encounters as Fractals
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Fractal-versions-of-the-Raids/first

Lots of re-work to balance the encounters for 5 players, however no balancing of rewards needed at all, the reward system is there. Aside from the serious tweaking of mechanics, this version that requires 5 players will have minimal, if any, kind of training value for the real Raid, as the mechanics would need to be toned down, or require far less things to do at once.

And this is my own suggestion:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first

The idea is simple: remove later phases from fights. It won’t work on all bosses, some can be problematic, but for the majority it can work really well. It requires a bit of tweaking to make it work well, mostly hit points and enrage timers, but there is little need to change the mechanics, and very little (if any) reward balancing either. Also, in this mode the story mode can work as training too

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

• A story mode would not detract from the difficulty of the experience in regular raid modes.

First, we have a developer response on the topic here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first
Which says they are discussing it, nothing final, nothing actually being developed, but there is internal discussion about it. I’m sure when they have more to say they will and no amount of asking will make them discuss it faster, especially in threads that ask for an easy mode and stop there. “I want an easier mode” isn’t very constructive, nor useful for the developers. Actual suggestions on how to do it can expedite the process but a simple “I want” isn’t going to do a thing.

Second, the thread topic is about adding an easy mode for story, which means some way for all players to experience the story of Raids, removing Raid specific rewards.
The main issue with a story mode version is that it can become Arah story mode number 2. Worthless to run outside the story, so you run once and forget it even exists, then it gets hard to get people to run it with. I’m sure this is one of the most important problems with a story version, how do you make it not-useless while at the same time allow players of really low skills to complete? It’s a contradiction

There have been multiple suggestions on how to do this without being a waste of time:

Spectator mode

In some HoT instances, when you join another’s story, you fly around as this blue glowing ball since you’re not technically there according to the story.
So maybe similar can be applied here. You can interact with the npcs of the raid but are immune to damage, cant cast anything, and work outside the 10-person limit.

With this one, it will take the minimal amount of work to do (unless it’s hard to port the pvp spectator mode into pve, I don’t know how their coding works) and requires no reward balance at all. Also, some form of training can be achieved here as you watch how other players play in a live environment. This is probably the easiest method but is it worth it compared to watching a video on youtube?

Raid encounters as Fractals
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Fractal-versions-of-the-Raids/first

Lots of re-work to balance the encounters for 5 players, however no balancing of rewards needed at all, the reward system is there. Aside from the serious tweaking of mechanics, this version that requires 5 players will have minimal, if any, kind of training value for the real Raid, as the mechanics would need to be toned down, or require far less things to do at once.

And this is my own suggestion:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first

The idea is simple: remove later phases from fights. It won’t work on all bosses, some can be problematic, but for the majority it can work really well. It requires a bit of tweaking to make it work well, mostly hit points and enrage timers, but there is little need to change the mechanics, and very little (if any) reward balancing either. Also, in this mode the story mode can work as training too

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

How can you claim that it is the “only end game that matters” if it is not required/necessary to get it done ?

flog.3485:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

• A story mode would not detract from the difficulty of the experience in regular raid modes.

First, we have a developer response on the topic here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first
Which says they are discussing it, nothing final, nothing actually being developed, but there is internal discussion about it. I’m sure when they have more to say they will and no amount of asking will make them discuss it faster, especially in threads that ask for an easy mode and stop there. “I want an easier mode” isn’t very constructive, nor useful for the developers. Actual suggestions on how to do it can expedite the process but a simple “I want” isn’t going to do a thing.

Second, the thread topic is about adding an easy mode for story, which means some way for all players to experience the story of Raids, removing Raid specific rewards.
The main issue with a story mode version is that it can become Arah story mode number 2. Worthless to run outside the story, so you run once and forget it even exists, then it gets hard to get people to run it with. I’m sure this is one of the most important problems with a story version, how do you make it not-useless while at the same time allow players of really low skills to complete? It’s a contradiction

There have been multiple suggestions on how to do this without being a waste of time:

Spectator mode

In some HoT instances, when you join another’s story, you fly around as this blue glowing ball since you’re not technically there according to the story.
So maybe similar can be applied here. You can interact with the npcs of the raid but are immune to damage, cant cast anything, and work outside the 10-person limit.

With this one, it will take the minimal amount of work to do (unless it’s hard to port the pvp spectator mode into pve, I don’t know how their coding works) and requires no reward balance at all. Also, some form of training can be achieved here as you watch how other players play in a live environment. This is probably the easiest method but is it worth it compared to watching a video on youtube?

Raid encounters as Fractals
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Fractal-versions-of-the-Raids/first

Lots of re-work to balance the encounters for 5 players, however no balancing of rewards needed at all, the reward system is there. Aside from the serious tweaking of mechanics, this version that requires 5 players will have minimal, if any, kind of training value for the real Raid, as the mechanics would need to be toned down, or require far less things to do at once.

And this is my own suggestion:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first

The idea is simple: remove later phases from fights. It won’t work on all bosses, some can be problematic, but for the majority it can work really well. It requires a bit of tweaking to make it work well, mostly hit points and enrage timers, but there is little need to change the mechanics, and very little (if any) reward balancing either. Also, in this mode the story mode can work as training too

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

How can you claim that it is the “only end game that matters” if it is not required/necessary to get it done ?

If you had read alittle bit more the poster said why it was the only thing that mattered.

I made it easier and boldend it for you.

Blaeys.3102:

zealex.9410:

Sojourner.4621:

You don’t have to even change the damage numbers, or a single one of the mechanics, to make a story mode. The only numbers you have to change are max HP and maybe toughness. Every enemy and boss can still hit exactly as hard as they do, just make it less of a DPS check to complete so that you don’t have to grind for best gear and practice to optimize DPS to complete the story mode, and it can serve as training for mechanics if people might want to get in to the raids later. No reason to nerf everything, just make the amount of DPS you have to hit as a group more in line with an average five man dungeon group.

you can complete raids in exotics i think ppl have done it with yellows and greens too…

Of course people can and have done exactly that, but those people were – most probably – people who had already done the fight in ascended and mastered every aspect of the fight. It’s the same concept that applies to groups that have done it with 8 people or killed it in half the time. Those are the exceptions – not the rule.

More importantly, trying to compare those situations to average players – and especially to players looking to just enjoy the content without the build and composition micromanagement – is disingenuous at best.

The issue isnt about gear. It isnt even really about hard versus easy. It is about providing a realistically fun experience for a wider range of PVE players – so they can enjoy the story (even if it is a “side story” or minimal) and the experience of the raid. That is very much lacking from the current raid model – and needs to be remedied.

My point was that the bossea aren’t strict enough to the point you to have a full asc set. Most ppl will ask you for asc weapons and maybe trinkets armor isnt a must but it is welcome

Linken.6345:

flog.3485:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

• A story mode would not detract from the difficulty of the experience in regular raid modes.

First, we have a developer response on the topic here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first
Which says they are discussing it, nothing final, nothing actually being developed, but there is internal discussion about it. I’m sure when they have more to say they will and no amount of asking will make them discuss it faster, especially in threads that ask for an easy mode and stop there. “I want an easier mode” isn’t very constructive, nor useful for the developers. Actual suggestions on how to do it can expedite the process but a simple “I want” isn’t going to do a thing.

Second, the thread topic is about adding an easy mode for story, which means some way for all players to experience the story of Raids, removing Raid specific rewards.
The main issue with a story mode version is that it can become Arah story mode number 2. Worthless to run outside the story, so you run once and forget it even exists, then it gets hard to get people to run it with. I’m sure this is one of the most important problems with a story version, how do you make it not-useless while at the same time allow players of really low skills to complete? It’s a contradiction

There have been multiple suggestions on how to do this without being a waste of time:

Spectator mode

In some HoT instances, when you join another’s story, you fly around as this blue glowing ball since you’re not technically there according to the story.
So maybe similar can be applied here. You can interact with the npcs of the raid but are immune to damage, cant cast anything, and work outside the 10-person limit.

With this one, it will take the minimal amount of work to do (unless it’s hard to port the pvp spectator mode into pve, I don’t know how their coding works) and requires no reward balance at all. Also, some form of training can be achieved here as you watch how other players play in a live environment. This is probably the easiest method but is it worth it compared to watching a video on youtube?

Raid encounters as Fractals
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Fractal-versions-of-the-Raids/first

Lots of re-work to balance the encounters for 5 players, however no balancing of rewards needed at all, the reward system is there. Aside from the serious tweaking of mechanics, this version that requires 5 players will have minimal, if any, kind of training value for the real Raid, as the mechanics would need to be toned down, or require far less things to do at once.

And this is my own suggestion:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first

The idea is simple: remove later phases from fights. It won’t work on all bosses, some can be problematic, but for the majority it can work really well. It requires a bit of tweaking to make it work well, mostly hit points and enrage timers, but there is little need to change the mechanics, and very little (if any) reward balancing either. Also, in this mode the story mode can work as training too

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

How can you claim that it is the “only end game that matters” if it is not required/necessary to get it done ?

If you had read alittle bit more the poster said why it was the only thing that mattered.

I made it easier and boldend it for you.

And I need to fractals to get the legendary fractal backpack, I need to do PvP to get the legendary PvP backpiece, I need to complete dungeons to get the associated armor pieces, I need to do HoT content extensively to get the legendaries tied to HoT release….My reading skills are fine. All I see is someone unwilling to change his build. Though It is now very easy to do so.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

If a player is leaving a game because his special snowflake build isn’t viable in one particular niche of game mode while it is in the overall majority of the game content, it really doesn’t matter because it shows that there is no addiction to the game at all. A company can easily compensate such hoppers and is right if it won’t commit to that player.

Just move on and have fun with your new adventure.

Vinceman.4572:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

If a player is leaving a game because his special snowflake build isn’t viable in one particular niche of game mode while it is in the overall majority of the game content, it really doesn’t matter because it shows that there is no addiction to the game at all. A company can easily compensate such hoppers and is right if it won’t commit to that player.

Just move on and have fun with your new adventure.

Except we aren’t talking about hoppers. Were seeing die hard fans, like Dirtbeard, Vayne, etc, questioning the direction of the game – and even discussing leaving. In some cases, were talking about people (like myself) who have put $1000+ into supporting the game – and played so many hours Im half ashamed to post my /age in game anymore. And while Im not ready to throw in the towel on GW2 yet, I am obviously displeased with what they are doing to the game I loved.

Were talking about a fundamental shift in how the game feels and plays that, imo, can be attributed directly to raids. You can disagree with that all you want – as long as that perception exists (and it very much does), it is a real issue.

The thing to keep in mind – the die hard fans are the ones that keep the game alive through lulls in content drops. They are the ones that lead Dragonstand or Drytop maps a few years after it came out – keeping the game feeling alive. They are the ones that help drive new content and financially back the game even when no one else does. This isn’t a group Anet wants to brush aside that simply.

I think the perception that raids are the main attraction stems mostly from the efficiency of the team creating them, while other teams seemingly seem slow to implement the same amount of content with many times greater teams (supposedly).

Especially when alot of people are also working on an expansion layers dont see for the foreseeable future.

Blaeys.3102:

Vinceman.4572:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

If a player is leaving a game because his special snowflake build isn’t viable in one particular niche of game mode while it is in the overall majority of the game content, it really doesn’t matter because it shows that there is no addiction to the game at all. A company can easily compensate such hoppers and is right if it won’t commit to that player.

Just move on and have fun with your new adventure.

Except we aren’t talking about hoppers. Were seeing die hard fans, like Dirtbeard, Vayne, etc, questioning the direction of the game – and even discussing leaving. In some cases, were talking about people (like myself) who have put $1000+ into supporting the game – and played so many hours Im half ashamed to post my /age in game anymore. And while Im not ready to throw in the towel on GW2 yet, I am obviously displeased with what they are doing to the game I loved.

Were talking about a fundamental shift in how the game feels and plays that, imo, can be attributed directly to raids. You can disagree with that all you want – as long as that perception exists (and it very much does), it is a real issue.

The thing to keep in mind – the die hard fans are the ones that keep the game alive through lulls in content drops. They are the ones that lead Dragonstand or Drytop maps a few years after it came out – keeping the game feeling alive. They are the ones that help drive new content and financially back the game even when no one else does. This isn’t a group Anet wants to brush aside that simply.

He is not a “die hard fan” with that attitude. Nuff said.

Vinceman.4572:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

If a player is leaving a game because his special snowflake build isn’t viable in one particular niche of game mode while it is in the overall majority of the game content, it really doesn’t matter because it shows that there is no addiction to the game at all. A company can easily compensate such hoppers and is right if it won’t commit to that player.

Just move on and have fun with your new adventure.

i dought power reaper is good in anyother part of the game

zealex.9410:

Vinceman.4572:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

If a player is leaving a game because his special snowflake build isn’t viable in one particular niche of game mode while it is in the overall majority of the game content, it really doesn’t matter because it shows that there is no addiction to the game at all. A company can easily compensate such hoppers and is right if it won’t commit to that player.

Just move on and have fun with your new adventure.

i dought power reaper is good in anyother part of the game

But you can play it in every other content without having troubles with other people or collide with goals (Open PvE, dungeons, fractals, PvP, WvW and RP – no one cares).

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

Vinceman.4572:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

If a player is leaving a game because his special snowflake build isn’t viable in one particular niche of game mode while it is in the overall majority of the game content, it really doesn’t matter because it shows that there is no addiction to the game at all. A company can easily compensate such hoppers and is right if it won’t commit to that player.

Just move on and have fun with your new adventure.

Except we aren’t talking about hoppers. Were seeing die hard fans, like Dirtbeard, Vayne, etc, questioning the direction of the game – and even discussing leaving. In some cases, were talking about people (like myself) who have put $1000+ into supporting the game – and played so many hours Im half ashamed to post my /age in game anymore. And while Im not ready to throw in the towel on GW2 yet, I am obviously displeased with what they are doing to the game I loved.

Were talking about a fundamental shift in how the game feels and plays that, imo, can be attributed directly to raids. You can disagree with that all you want – as long as that perception exists (and it very much does), it is a real issue.

The thing to keep in mind – the die hard fans are the ones that keep the game alive through lulls in content drops. They are the ones that lead Dragonstand or Drytop maps a few years after it came out – keeping the game feeling alive. They are the ones that help drive new content and financially back the game even when no one else does. This isn’t a group Anet wants to brush aside that simply.

He is not a “die hard fan” with that attitude. Nuff said.

Doesnt change the fact that a lot of players like him are becoming disillusioned with the game because of this issue (some faster than others).

And, yes, you can be huge fan of the game and still hate the direction is going in. It is important for Anet to see posts like his – and understand the potential long term damage this direction is doing to the game.

Blaeys.3102:

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

Vinceman.4572:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Thank you for linking my thread, I’m glad that was considered a legitimate option by some one at least.

I’ve read this whole thread and I’ve got to say Blaze championed the positions of my faction quite strongly.

Unfortunately I’ve moved on for the foreseeable future. I can not see my self financially supporting a company that has no place for my Great Sword Reaper in the only End Game that matters now that it’s the only place you can hope to work toward Legendary Armor. ESO is a breath of fresh air, the pace is a bit slower and it’s refreshing to switch to a game controller for a change after almost 20 years of PC MMOs. Well good luck, I’m sure my $50 a month plus I used to spend on this game in gems won’t be missed.

If a player is leaving a game because his special snowflake build isn’t viable in one particular niche of game mode while it is in the overall majority of the game content, it really doesn’t matter because it shows that there is no addiction to the game at all. A company can easily compensate such hoppers and is right if it won’t commit to that player.

Just move on and have fun with your new adventure.

Except we aren’t talking about hoppers. Were seeing die hard fans, like Dirtbeard, Vayne, etc, questioning the direction of the game – and even discussing leaving. In some cases, were talking about people (like myself) who have put $1000+ into supporting the game – and played so many hours Im half ashamed to post my /age in game anymore. And while Im not ready to throw in the towel on GW2 yet, I am obviously displeased with what they are doing to the game I loved.

Were talking about a fundamental shift in how the game feels and plays that, imo, can be attributed directly to raids. You can disagree with that all you want – as long as that perception exists (and it very much does), it is a real issue.

The thing to keep in mind – the die hard fans are the ones that keep the game alive through lulls in content drops. They are the ones that lead Dragonstand or Drytop maps a few years after it came out – keeping the game feeling alive. They are the ones that help drive new content and financially back the game even when no one else does. This isn’t a group Anet wants to brush aside that simply.

He is not a “die hard fan” with that attitude. Nuff said.

Doesnt change the fact that a lot of players like him are becoming disillusioned with the game because of this issue (some faster than others).

And, yes, you can be huge fan of the game and still hate the direction is going in. It is important for Anet to see posts like his – and understand the potential long term damage this direction is doing to the game.

What direction do you speak of?

Blaeys.3102:

Doesnt change the fact that a lot of players like him are becoming disillusioned with the game because of this issue (some faster than others).

And, yes, you can be huge fan of the game and still hate the direction is going in. It is important for Anet to see posts like his – and understand the potential long term damage this direction is doing to the game.

Ok, that’s sad if ppl become disillusioned about one single game mode in the game they are not pleased with.
And what specific direction? Raids are not the main focus of GW2, ppl should stop making a drama out of it. Raids are one little part in the game – nothing more, nothing less.

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

Doesnt change the fact that a lot of players like him are becoming disillusioned with the game because of this issue (some faster than others).

And, yes, you can be huge fan of the game and still hate the direction is going in. It is important for Anet to see posts like his – and understand the potential long term damage this direction is doing to the game.

Ok, that’s sad if ppl become disillusioned about one single game mode in the game they are not pleased with.
And what specific direction? Raids are not the main focus of GW2, ppl should stop making a drama out of it. Raids are one little part in the game – nothing more, nothing less.

The main focus of GW2 is the cosmetic endgame. The pinnacle of the cosmetic endgame is Legendary Equipment. It’s a pity that ANet couldn’t come up with something sufficiently epic for a raid-exclusive reward without tying the only iteration of Legendary Armor for the foreseeable future behind that “one little part of the game.” I believe we’d have seen a lot less complaints about raids from non-raiders had they done so.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

Doesnt change the fact that a lot of players like him are becoming disillusioned with the game because of this issue (some faster than others).

And, yes, you can be huge fan of the game and still hate the direction is going in. It is important for Anet to see posts like his – and understand the potential long term damage this direction is doing to the game.

Ok, that’s sad if ppl become disillusioned about one single game mode in the game they are not pleased with.
And what specific direction? Raids are not the main focus of GW2, ppl should stop making a drama out of it. Raids are one little part in the game – nothing more, nothing less.

The main focus of GW2 is the cosmetic endgame. The pinnacle of the cosmetic endgame is Legendary Equipment. It’s a pity that ANet couldn’t come up with something sufficiently epic for a raid-exclusive reward without tying the only iteration of Legendary Armor for the foreseeable future behind that “one little part of the game.” I believe we’d have seen a lot less complaints about raids from non-raiders had they done so.

The problem though is that this “pinnacle” is soooo subjective. If I follow your argument then core legendary weapons are also the ultimate weapons to get. And yet you can not say that everyone has farmed for this supposed pinnacle. I can pretty much tell you that personally I prefer the skin of the Anomaly to the Minstrel, order of whisper staff and the centaur skin staff over Bifrost and so on. We don’t even know what these legendaries armor will look like, how can you say it is already perceived as a pinnacle ? And where are these lots of complaints ? HoT release without an additional character slot generated a lot of complaints, here it is pretty much the same 10-15 people arguing over and over whenever raid subjects are brought up. Not every die hard fan of the game are going to play quote wars 2 complaining whether it is Reddit and/or GW 2 forums.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The main focus of GW2 is the cosmetic endgame.

No it’s not. Some people might obsess over cosmetics just like people do in literally every rpg ever, but that is not the core focus of the game.

The core focus of the game has always been the unique combat system, dynamic events, and horizontal progression.

flog.3485:

The problem though is that this “pinnacle” is soooo subjective. If I follow your argument then core legendary weapons are also the ultimate weapons to get. And yet you can not say that everyone has farmed for this supposed pinnacle. I can pretty much tell you that personally I prefer the skin of the Anomaly to the Minstrel, order of whisper staff and the centaur skin staff over Bifrost and so on. We don’t even know what these legendaries armor will look like, how can you say it is already perceived as a pinnacle ? And where are these lots of complaints ? HoT release without an additional character slot generated a lot of complaints, here it is pretty much the same 10-15 people arguing over and over whenever raid subjects are brought up. Not every die hard fan of the game are going to play quote wars 2 complaining whether it is Reddit and/or GW 2 forums.

You’d be hard pressed to find agreement about anything across multiple demographics in any MMO player base. That does not mean that Legendary Weapons (and now Armor) are not seen as the pinnacle of the cosmetic endgame in GW2.

Crinn.7864:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The main focus of GW2 is the cosmetic endgame.

No it’s not. Some people might obsess over cosmetics just like people do in literally every rpg ever, but that is not the core focus of the game.

The core focus of the game has always been the unique combat system, dynamic events, and horizontal progression.

Next you’ll be telling us that people don’t repeat raids for the rewards. ANet may have started with some illusions about players repeating content “for fun” before they launched the game. The incessant posts about rewards, the game being unrewarding, and lack of motivation because there is nothing to chase disabused them of those illusions. The fact is that virtual rewards, be they cosmetic or stat-based, fuel endgame repetition in MMO’s. There may be a few other rewards that require as much investment as Legendary items, but they are few and far between.

Andovar Edoras.2143:

TLDR; Raids need an ez-mode for noobs who dont want good loot but want story immersion.

The difficulty is story immersion. A character which the story tells you is supposed to be incredibly powerful and difficult to kill, which then in gameplay falls over when it’s subjected to all the force of a wet fart, is immersion breaking.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Crinn.7864:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The main focus of GW2 is the cosmetic endgame.

No it’s not. Some people might obsess over cosmetics just like people do in literally every rpg ever, but that is not the core focus of the game.

The core focus of the game has always been the unique combat system, dynamic events, and horizontal progression.

Next you’ll be telling us that people don’t repeat raids for the rewards. ANet may have started with some illusions about players repeating content “for fun” before they launched the game. The incessant posts about rewards, the game being unrewarding, and lack of motivation because there is nothing to chase disabused them of those illusions. The fact is that virtual rewards, be they cosmetic or stat-based, fuel endgame repetition in MMO’s. There may be a few other rewards that require as much investment as Legendary items, but they are few and far between.

Progression and story are also rewards. Though maybe not for repeated tries.
Players always want more content over repeating the same content for a cosmetic reward. (Just look at population spikes right after expansions or updates come out) The cosmetic reward can be a players main focus, but this doesn’t mean the game’s main focus is the same. In fact it would be safe to say that a game has many focus points for players to aim for.

For one that is character progression, for another its story, for another its hard content and achievements, and for another its cosmetic rewards.
It would be disillusioned to say this game has only one focus.

In fact this whole thread is because some players like story, but they don’t like the difficulty. Or they don’t like that legendary armor is only behind raids. (Or both) In either case they want the rewards that raiders get with their content.

You could argue that raiders don’t have the sole right on story nor legendary armour Or
You could argue that the story is the reward Raiders get for exploring these instances And legendary armor is the reward they get for repeating/mastering it x times. Personally I dislike the farming part but like the achievement part.

IndigoSundown.5419:

flog.3485:

The problem though is that this “pinnacle” is soooo subjective. If I follow your argument then core legendary weapons are also the ultimate weapons to get. And yet you can not say that everyone has farmed for this supposed pinnacle. I can pretty much tell you that personally I prefer the skin of the Anomaly to the Minstrel, order of whisper staff and the centaur skin staff over Bifrost and so on. We don’t even know what these legendaries armor will look like, how can you say it is already perceived as a pinnacle ? And where are these lots of complaints ? HoT release without an additional character slot generated a lot of complaints, here it is pretty much the same 10-15 people arguing over and over whenever raid subjects are brought up. Not every die hard fan of the game are going to play quote wars 2 complaining whether it is Reddit and/or GW 2 forums.

You’d be hard pressed to find agreement about anything across multiple demographics in any MMO player base. That does not mean that Legendary Weapons (and now Armor) are not seen as the pinnacle of the cosmetic endgame in GW2.

Crinn.7864:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The main focus of GW2 is the cosmetic endgame.

No it’s not. Some people might obsess over cosmetics just like people do in literally every rpg ever, but that is not the core focus of the game.

The core focus of the game has always been the unique combat system, dynamic events, and horizontal progression.

Next you’ll be telling us that people don’t repeat raids for the rewards. ANet may have started with some illusions about players repeating content “for fun” before they launched the game. The incessant posts about rewards, the game being unrewarding, and lack of motivation because there is nothing to chase disabused them of those illusions. The fact is that virtual rewards, be they cosmetic or stat-based, fuel endgame repetition in MMO’s. There may be a few other rewards that require as much investment as Legendary items, but they are few and far between.

And yet this “pinnacle” is so easy to ignore. We are not playing a game where most of armors are released in game, skins are rather released through gemstores and you can straight convert gold to gems. Consider this as well: if you design an easy long term farm to obtain the legendary armor, don’t you completely undervalue the other skins that are released because of the uniqueness of having an “animated” armor ? I say it is best to let a player choose the skins he can/wants to grind because even if you make it easy some players will straight feel like a second class citizen due to the fact that they just don’t have enough time to dedicate to the game. Furthermore, I strongly believe that Anet didn’t want the legendary armor to be only an easy grind but rather something that also shows some skill, hence why it took them that long to finally implement it in the game.

The real cry will come when light, med armors are released. We’ve seen heavy and it is…ok. Personally i got the li n stuff but i dont find it good enough to grind the gold and mats. If light and med are the same no1 is gonna care anymore.If they look good this forum is gonna get super toxic by the casuals. Im already stocking on popcorn for that time

flog.3485:

And yet this “pinnacle” is so easy to ignore. We are not playing a game where most of armors are released in game, skins are rather released through gemstores and you can straight convert gold to gems. Consider this as well: if you design an easy long term farm to obtain the legendary armor, don’t you completely undervalue the other skins that are released because of the uniqueness of having an “animated” armor ? I say it is best to let a player choose the skins he can/wants to grind because even if you make it easy some players will straight feel like a second class citizen due to the fact that they just don’t have enough time to dedicate to the game. Furthermore, I strongly believe that Anet didn’t want the legendary armor to be only an easy grind but rather something that also shows some skill, hence why it took them that long to finally implement it in the game.

I won’t argue against any of that. I believe that ANet prefers to cater to what they perceive as serious gamers. However, what perplexes me about that is the back-again forth-again approach to whether the game is catering to the serious or the drop-in gamer. It’s as if Anet wants to do both.

What i do believe is that — whether Legendary items are ignored by large numbers of people or not (and I see an awful lot of Legendary Weapons in the NA server cluster), ANet has hyped them entirely too much for Armor to be a reward only for raiders. I don’t know if there are enough people who are going to be upset by the gating to matter to the bottom line, but I do believe it’s a risk on ANet’s part, just as the NPE was a risk in the other direction.

I also believe that ANet will produce other Legendary Armor over time. However, the current iteration is appearing at the speed of late. Whether they would get around to it (if at all) soon enough to matter to the disenfranchised remains to be seen.

Finally, while there are armor skins in the store, the sets are all from before their statement that armor sets would be in-game rewards. New skins in the store are all either single pieces (back, shoulder) or outfits.

flog.3485:

And yet this “pinnacle” is so easy to ignore.

If it’s so easy to ignore, why people defend that exclusivity so strongly?

flog.3485:

We are not playing a game where most of armors are released in game, skins are rather released through gemstores

Not anymore. Outfits just don’t give you enough customization options.

flog.3485:

Consider this as well: if you design an easy long term farm to obtain the legendary armor, don’t you completely undervalue the other skins that are released because of the uniqueness of having an “animated” armor ?

No more than legendary weapons “undervalue” all other skins.

flog.3485:

I say it is best to let a player choose the skins he can/wants to grind

I agree. For this, there must be a choice. No, choosing a gameplay you like is a completely different choice.

I have zero interest in legendary armor, so I can see both sides of that argument.

There is a deeper question related to Legendary Armor though – and that is, what comes after raiders start getting it.

If things go as planned, legendary armor will be coming around the time of the next living story update. I suspect, not long after that, you will start to see quite a few people in it.

And once that carrot has been eaten, what will happen to raids? Not only will it become the exclusive playground of the players conforming to build wars, but it will most likely lose the percentage of that subset that tires of killing everything every week once they get their reward.

That will leave Anet with a pretty serious quandary – either come up with something else ultra nice to offer as an exclusive reward or watch raid participation dwindle considerably. If they choose the prior, the more they offer those ultra nice rewards, the wider the gap between raiders and non-raiders in terms of prestige and recognition by the devs.

Surely even the strongest opponents of story modes can see the problem with this and the potential negative long term impact it could have.

The answer, imo, is to forego additional ultra nice rewards and open the experience to more people – use tiered difficulty to keep the game mode active and alive instead. Still reserve the current set of legendary weapons and future weapon skins, minis and titles for those doing the harder version, but use tiered difficulty to keep the number of people enjoying the content up.

Again, the alternative to that solution is not healthy for the game long term.

To reinforce, I have no issue whatsoever with the current one time legendary armor reward as a symbol of achievement for those completing the first raids at the hardest difficulty – but beyond that I firmly believe Anet will hurt the game without making some kind of compromises on the this issue.

The developers should rarely ever have to dumb down a game system for people who choose not to adapt or participate, because even with difficulty reduced there can still be other people who call it out for being too hard.

Astralporing.1957:

If it’s so easy to ignore, why people defend that exclusivity so strongly?

The appeal of raids is progression, and people like to have visible symbols of that progression. In other words distinctive prestige items that can be acquired by no other means.

Getting Legendary armor is like buy a Corvette in real life. You don’t buy the Corvette because it’s practical for you, you buy it because it’s rare, iconic, and only successful men have them.

Exclusivity and Distinctiveness are what gives the item value.

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

Doesnt change the fact that a lot of players like him are becoming disillusioned with the game because of this issue (some faster than others).

And, yes, you can be huge fan of the game and still hate the direction is going in. It is important for Anet to see posts like his – and understand the potential long term damage this direction is doing to the game.

Ok, that’s sad if ppl become disillusioned about one single game mode in the game they are not pleased with.
And what specific direction? Raids are not the main focus of GW2, ppl should stop making a drama out of it. Raids are one little part in the game – nothing more, nothing less.

Back a yeah or so ago gw2’s main focus was raids after that when the first updates for pvp came out “oh the games main focus now is pvp boo”, now with the new fractal and raid gw2’s main focus is pve and the rest are not touched (which is a lie). So yeah ppl see what helps their arguement.