Guild Wars 2

Rednik.3809:

But still, it looks like raids originally was planned as the pinnacle of PvE endgame, and clearly not as secondary or alternative content. Probably now that direction is changed, adjusted or even reversed completely. Or maybe they will stick to it and simply change/expand raids itself. We will see.

Are you Sherlock Holmes ?

Anyone who read the HOT press releases could tell you Raids were the pinnacle of PVE. They were billed as the Ultimate end game experience, Challenging Group Content etc….

It never was a side project, just a project that told side stories.

Mel.3064:

Sadly a lot of people fail the easiest mechanics or do less DPS than NPCs in living story instances. You have to weed out the trash tier players somehow when pugging and starting at the LIs is the best place to start.

That would be correct. While players with very few LI lack experience, those demanding an incredibly large amount of LIs tend to be inflexible and incapable to adapt to circumstances. Talk about trash tier indeed.

The “best” players for pugging tend to be found somewhere on middle ground, or at least that has been my experience when filling up a last squad slot or two with randoms.

Satenia.9025:

Mel.3064:

Sadly a lot of people fail the easiest mechanics or do less DPS than NPCs in living story instances. You have to weed out the trash tier players somehow when pugging and starting at the LIs is the best place to start.

That would be correct. While players with very few LI lack experience, those demanding an incredibly large amount of LIs tend to be inflexible and incapable to adapt to circumstances. Talk about trash tier indeed.

The “best” players for pugging tend to be found somewhere on middle ground, or at least that has been my experience when filling up a last squad slot or two with randoms.

Good thing I never pug raids. Would probably have to lie about not owning my 500+ LIs then.

On a serious note, there is some truth to that. You can only judge people by their amount of currency, AP or anything similar to a certain degree. Anything past that is just silly. Although, it still seems to make more sense to exclude those with very low numbers rather than those with very high numbers.

Henry.5713:

Good thing I never pug raids. Would probably have to lie about not owning my 500+ LIs then.

On a serious note, there is some truth to that. You can only judge people by their amount of currency, AP or anything similar to a certain degree. Anything past that is just silly. Although, it still seems to make more sense to exclude those with very low numbers rather than those with very high numbers.

I think you misunderstood. Satenia didn’t say that people with large numbers of LI’s are a problem (because that would be just silly). What was said was that people asking for high LI numbers is also a clear indication of possible problems.

I currently have 0 LI I’ll never get into a pug =((((

NikeEU.7690:

I currently have 0 LI I’ll never get into a pug =((((

It’s just a travesty that your own guild doesn’t take you amirite ?

TexZero.7910:

NikeEU.7690:

I currently have 0 LI I’ll never get into a pug =((((

It’s just a travesty that your own guild doesn’t take you amirite ?

There there nikeEU .. each time he killed a boss in raids he right click on the li and select delete

Raids are impossible without meta, we need easy mode!
That 10 turret eng pug clear was clearly hackz!!!!
And this witchcraft now :
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6aje9v/vg_only_kitten_off_meta_build_pls/

How is this possible?!?! We all know that raiding is only for meta elitist non-life hardcore pizza gamers!!!

/s

TexZero.7910:

NikeEU.7690:

I currently have 0 LI I’ll never get into a pug =((((

It’s just a travesty that your own guild doesn’t take you amirite ?

They ask me to ping gear and I ping apothecary gear on ele I got after wooden potatoes video and I get kicked. Some guild.

NikeEU.7690:

TexZero.7910:

NikeEU.7690:

I currently have 0 LI I’ll never get into a pug =((((

It’s just a travesty that your own guild doesn’t take you amirite ?

They ask me to ping gear and I ping apothecary gear on ele I got after wooden potatoes video and I get kicked. Some guild.

They just dont understand the meta. Clearly this needs a 15 minute youtube video in which 14 minutes are just about fashion.

If anet doesn’t do something RAID will die off.

Current raiders will get bored and the high requirements will grow puts people off learning RAID like myself as it is not easy to find a group.

Hard to find a raiding guild as the raiding time usually is when I am at work. Plugging is extremely hard as the req usually kill prove or 100il+. I have only manage to get 3il…

When you do get a group people get treated like kitten, instant kick because someone had toughness on a training group (felt sorry and explained only lures/tanks are supposed to have it only).

If you have not master the full RAIDS and dont have much free time it is nearly quite impossible to get into it.

Not everyone like me lerns by watching YouTube, only by doing. RAID needs to be new raider friendly with easy/training mode or else anet hard work slowly die off.

Jasonbdj.4021:

If anet doesn’t do something RAID will die off.

Current raiders will get bored and the high requirements will grow puts people off learning RAID like myself as it is not easy to find a group.

Hard to find a raiding guild as the raiding time usually is when I am at work. Plugging is extremely hard as the req usually kill prove or 100il+. I have only manage to get 3il…

When you do get a group people get treated like kitten, instant kick because someone had toughness on a training group (felt sorry and explained only lures/tanks are supposed to have it only).

If you have not master the full RAIDS and dont have much free time it is nearly quite impossible to get into it.

Not everyone like me lerns by watching YouTube, only by doing. RAID needs to be new raider friendly with easy/training mode or else anet hard work slowly die off.

I fail to see how hard it is to get into it…..Today a guy in my guild was randomly advertising training in VG. I joined. It was my first time ever entering a raid instance though I did know a little about the fight with some twitch streams that I randomly watched in the past. I did not have the optimal set-up nor the optimal food though it was ok according to the party leader that invited me. In three tries (I did not have more time personally and I felt like I was penalizing my team for not having the right stats as mesmer), we got VG down to 56%. Is it just pure luck ?

VG training group are mainly only ones that appears….as I said, I manage to get 3il.

Great idea, am sure people would join me who has lack of experience now for a no chance of successful run.

Did I not mention that i can not meet guilds usual RAID time? I’ve join a few to see it’s nearly impossible with my job. Unless I learn another language, chanage my sleeping patten and completely ignore real life so I could join Guild RAID at a different time zone…. or could just leave my good pay job that pays for the living cost so I can get into guild’s standard RAID time.

Dont judge without know clearly on other people situation (and not clearly reading the first post)…

Not asking for rewards, a easy hand-outs. Asking a chance to experience each wing and then maybe start my own group knowing each sector.

Jasonbdj.4021:

VG training group are mainly only ones that appears….as I said, I manage to get 3il.

Great idea, am sure people would join me who has lack of experience now for a no chance of successful run.

Did I not mention that i can not meet guilds usual RAID time? I’ve join a few to see it’s nearly impossible with my job. Unless I learn another language, chanage my sleeping patten and completely ignore real life so I could join Guild RAID at a different time zone…. or could just leave my good pay job that pays for the living cost so I can get into guild’s standard RAID time.

Dont judge without know clearly on other people situation (and not clearly reading the first post)…

Not asking for rewards, a easy hand-outs. Asking a chance to experience each wing and then maybe start my own group knowing each sector.

Hey I am not judging you. All I did was providing my own personal story of how I entered a raid instance.

flog.3485:

Jasonbdj.4021:

VG training group are mainly only ones that appears….as I said, I manage to get 3il.

Great idea, am sure people would join me who has lack of experience now for a no chance of successful run.

Did I not mention that i can not meet guilds usual RAID time? I’ve join a few to see it’s nearly impossible with my job. Unless I learn another language, chanage my sleeping patten and completely ignore real life so I could join Guild RAID at a different time zone…. or could just leave my good pay job that pays for the living cost so I can get into guild’s standard RAID time.

Dont judge without know clearly on other people situation (and not clearly reading the first post)…

Not asking for rewards, a easy hand-outs. Asking a chance to experience each wing and then maybe start my own group knowing each sector.

Hey I am not judging you. All I did was providing my own personal story of how I entered a raid instance.

It was not aimed at you, someone posted after your post basically being a kitten which was removed after my post

Possible to get into raid but can be a lot harder for some with limited time. Very hard to get into groups without exp, cant gain exp without a group.

Mel.3064:

Rednik.3809:

Mel.3064:

Raids in this game are insanely easy as it is. I am suprised there are so many people who fail at them. Things like Samarog CM should be the baseline difficulty and not a one time challenge mode if you ask me.

Things like Samarog CM will never be baseline, and possibly will never appear again as long as we have LFGs demanding 300+ LI for “insanely easy” raid.

Sadly a lot of people fail the easiest mechanics or do less DPS than NPCs in living story instances. You have to weed out the trash tier players somehow when pugging and starting at the LIs is the best place to start.

Even more sad perhaps, is that out of so many trash players many of them are only bad at min-maxing the particular current meta and would do just fine with their preferred class (with proper damage builds of course). Consider how many “trash” players are struggling to learn/succeed with elementalist when they would have the DH rotation down in 3 attempts and would be drowning in LI’s by now.

Raids are easy, so easy in fact that it’s kind of stupid to demand of someone in a pug to be doing a perfect elementalist rotation while minding every mechanic around when they could be bashing skill buttons as a Daredevil or some other faceroll class and land much more damage than they would otherwise. The timers are very lenient and min-maxing only holds back the average player who could be raiding as if it was T4 fractals. I don’t believe most of these people are trash, and I don’t think from my experience that they are failing mechanics enough that it hinders their progress.

Jasonbdj.4021:

flog.3485:

Jasonbdj.4021:

VG training group are mainly only ones that appears….as I said, I manage to get 3il.

Great idea, am sure people would join me who has lack of experience now for a no chance of successful run.

Did I not mention that i can not meet guilds usual RAID time? I’ve join a few to see it’s nearly impossible with my job. Unless I learn another language, chanage my sleeping patten and completely ignore real life so I could join Guild RAID at a different time zone…. or could just leave my good pay job that pays for the living cost so I can get into guild’s standard RAID time.

Dont judge without know clearly on other people situation (and not clearly reading the first post)…

Not asking for rewards, a easy hand-outs. Asking a chance to experience each wing and then maybe start my own group knowing each sector.

Hey I am not judging you. All I did was providing my own personal story of how I entered a raid instance.

It was not aimed at you, someone posted after your post basically being a kitten which was removed after my post

Possible to get into raid but can be a lot harder for some with limited time. Very hard to get into groups without exp, cant gain exp without a group.

You mean posted telling you the gods honest truth that most people who say its too hard hate to hear.

Everyone who came before you faced the exact same hurdles and formed their own groups, joined guilds etc. If they can do it so can you.

TexZero.7910:

Everyone who came before you faced the exact same hurdles and formed their own groups, joined guilds etc. If they can do it so can you.

Not everyone faced the same hurdles. Also, you conveniently skipped the part where most of the people trying that didn’t make it.

Precisely. the people that passed the hurdles had more time available for playing, more time flexibility, already had enough friends that could form a group, had lot of luck, or all of the above.

In short, they were in a situation that doesn’t hold true for all players, so please stop trying to pretend that it’s exactly the same for everyone else. It’s not.

I’m not “more pedantic”. I’m pointing out that what you’re trying to presend as something simple, is simple only on paper.
Yes, it will be easy for some, but it doesn’t mean it will be as easy for others.

Is this really so hard to comprehend?

phys.7689:

yeah but this is the flaw in Raids being a thing people have to do to attain endgame gear.
Organizing people/grouping is the big hurdle that people want to avoid.

http://gw2101.gtm.guildwars2.com/global/includes/images/en/healing-death-comic01.jpg

getting into raids is the biggest hurdle, and GW2 never really developed a 10 man culture.

….And ?

Look don’t get me wrong, the tools we have suck. That’s no case for changing raids, that’s a case for changing the tools. Don’t be confused here either, that doesn’t mean a full on automation of the process because lets be frank here, that ruins the raiding experience for everyone destroys any semblance of teamwork and cooperation and creates more conflicts due to it pooling varying levels of player skill into one pool.

Additionally, if others can and have created groups the people complaining can too. It’s their desire not to that’s the issue they have.

Everyone tries to make this a easy versus hard issue, but that is not really the big concern here.

Balance in raids is a pipe dream – and there will always be classes/builds/playstyles that simply do not play well there. Currently, direct damage elementalists and tank chronomancers can enjoy the content as designed, while a direct damage scrapper or most revenants will find it frustrating and (yes – definitely) less accessible.

IMO, there is no group formation tool that is going to fix that. And the only way (imo) they achieve actual balance is by watering down the classes so much that they all play basically the same. And, if they work to balance the actual content for more professions, they water down the challenge for those playing those high performing builds.

So, yes – other people may be creating groups and dropping bosses left and right – but it still doesn’t solve the disparity issue between builds/professions/playstyles.

That leaves multiple modes – something they clearly proved is possible with the use of challenge motes in the last wing. It gives accessibility to more professions and playstyles without compromising the actual challenging levels of gameplay.

Blaeys.3102:

That leaves multiple modes – something they clearly proved is possible with the use of challenge motes in the last wing. It gives accessibility to more professions and playstyles without compromising the actual challenging levels of gameplay.

I disagree here and doubt that would change anything because even in the regular runs these days I never see any scrappers around or the possibility for revenants besides heal revs at Deimos (+ some clever commanders at Cairn).
Also, a look in the past tells us a different story. During dungeon peak time it was almost impossible to run as necro or ranger in groups with faster plays although they already have been easy. These exclusions were player driven and could be bypassed building own groups – same goes for raids now. Of course, they were a player reaction due to balance issues and as such can only be prevented by watering down the content to an extent where nobody would have fun running it more than once or make it a farm fiesta like halloween labyrinth.

Vinceman.4572:

Also, a look in the past tells us a different story. During dungeon peak time it was almost impossible to run as necro or ranger in groups with faster plays although they already have been easy.

It was however really easy to get in the “casual run” groups. And the chance of succeeding was about the same for both kinds of groups. Neither is true for raids however.

Vinceman.4572:

These exclusions were player driven and could be bypassed building own groups – same goes for raids now.

Not really. The success chance between more fine-tuned and casual approach groups is much, much bigger. The exclusion may be still player-driven, but the players do have a much stronger basis for it than they had during dungeon times.

The situation between those two modes is not really comparable.

Astralporing.1957:

Vinceman.4572:

Also, a look in the past tells us a different story. During dungeon peak time it was almost impossible to run as necro or ranger in groups with faster plays although they already have been easy.

It was however really easy to get in the “casual run” groups. And the chance of succeeding was about the same for both kinds of groups. Neither is true for raids however.

Vinceman.4572:

These exclusions were player driven and could be bypassed building own groups – same goes for raids now.

Not really. The success chance between more fine-tuned and casual approach groups is much, much bigger. The exclusion may be still player-driven, but the players do have a much stronger basis for it than they had during dungeon times.

The situation between those two modes is not really comparable.

It’s 100% comparable.

You want to play your way in your groups. Sadly your way has a 70% chance of failure. You made that choice.

Others have decided to make their own groups with their own reqs and have a <90% success rate.

Whose to blame for their own failure if not the people making the selective choice to fail ?

TexZero.7910:

It’s 100% comparable.

Hmm, let’s see.

TexZero.7910:

You want to play your way in your groups. Sadly your way has a 70% chance of failure. You made that choice.

Others have decided to make their own groups with their own reqs and have a <90% success rate.

Whose to blame for their own failure if not the people making the selective choice to fail ?

Yes. Pecisely. That’s how it works in raids. There, those choices do have a visible impact on success chances. The exclusion has a real basis.

In case of dungeons however, the success chance difference would have been insignificant, so any exclusion was fully based on player reactions. Which is why for every restricted lfg, there was another that accepted all comers.

So, we have
Exclusions of builds, circumventing the meta lowers your success chances, consequently non-meta groups are more rare and harder to find (especially the succesful ones). In your choice you have to balance your playstyle preferences against your chances of finding a group and chances of succeeding
vs
exclusion of builds based only on player preferences, refusing to adapt doesn’t impact you success chances, non-exclusive groups are as numerous and as likely to succeed as exclusive ones. You choose based on your preferences, and there’s no real downside to choosing either way.

How did you think those two are 100% comparable, i have no idea.

Astralporing.1957:

So, we have
Exclusions of builds, circumventing the meta lowers your success chances, consequently non-meta groups are more rare and harder to find (especially the succesful ones). In your choice you have to balance your playstyle preferences against your chances of finding a group and chances of succeeding
vs
exclusion of builds based only on player preferences, refusing to adapt doesn’t impact you success chances, non-exclusive groups are as numerous and as likely to succeed as exclusive ones. You choose based on your preferences, and there’s no real downside to choosing either way.

How did you think those two are 100% comparable, i have no idea.

It’s almost like…..

Raids were not meant for the everyman. It’s almost like Anet said this before ?

So why are you still pushing for it to be for the everyman, when clearly its designed for a group of people who will work together, make sacrifices and changes and overcome the challenges presented when clearly what you want is the open world boss structure ?

It’s like you could just open world and chill. Oh right, because you want rewards.

I hate to break it to you, but you’re the only obstacle to those rewards. You are right now living with the consequences of your own folly.

Astralporing.1957:

…refusing to adapt doesn’t impact you success chances…

So you’re saying that player choices shouldn’t matter? The game should always end up the same way no matter what you choose, what you do? Why have any kind of player input then? Let’s all just go watch a movie and not interact with the world in any way.

If you choose to play a useless build, that’s entirely on you. Learn to live with the consequences.

Astralporing.1957:

It was however really easy to get in the “casual run” groups. And the chance of succeeding was about the same for both kinds of groups. Neither is true for raids however.
Not really. The success chance between more fine-tuned and casual approach groups is much, much bigger. The exclusion may be still player-driven, but the players do have a much stronger basis for it than they had during dungeon times.

The situation between those two modes is not really comparable.

TexZero already replied for me in a common-sense manner, so I’ll keep the rest short:
I was part of the dungeon running system and I totally disagree with you. The chance of succeeding was very much lower in non-meta groups. I’ve seen many groups without reqs disbanding at the Spider Queen or Kholer in AC. For Arah, many groups didn’t even make it to the first boss in P1 (Ooze), CoE was almost only filled with meta and exp groups because the majority of players couldn’t handle the lasers and many more.
Of course, as an exp player you were able to carry some beginners but that’s the same thing for raids nowadays. With my guild – far from being a very good one – we can take 2-3 new players onto bosses with very very short explanations and get them the kill.

By all means, the hardcore experience should remain for those wanting to form ideal groups with ideal builds/comps/etc.

No one is asking for that to be removed.

And, yes, the initial intent of raids was that they not be for everyone. Again, no one is debating that.

As for the comparison to early dungeons, the examples only hold true if you limit the definition of successful dungeon runs to include speed runs. I ran dungeons pretty much every day (successfully) for a very long time with guildmates playing everything from bearbow rangers to mantra mesmers to mace-shield warriors – and we never once quit a dungeon early for any reason other than real life sticking its silly head into our game (kids, work, etc). The only fight we ever found to require any kind of specialization was Simin in Arah (because of the burst damage requirement), but even then, we usually found a way to do it. Dungeons were an example of well designed content in which pretty much every build was viable.

The point is, the current raid environment is not limiting because of the difficulty of the fights (they really aren’t that hard, tbh). It is limiting because of the disparity and huge differences between the different builds/professions/playstyles – and that is just BAD design.

So, with that in mind, how is it fixed? Balance all professions/builds/playstyles? In a perfect world, sure – if they could do that without compromising the flavor and feel of those professions, that would be ideal.

But it will never happen – especially as we add nine more elite specializations with the upcoming expansion.

The only way you are going to provide a comparable level of accessibility for (using the current game dynamic as an example) power based scrapper or revenant when compared to, say, a tempest, is to provide a tiered raid model. It may not be the perfect solution – it may not have been what the developers envisioned for raids – but it is very much needed at this point.

Blaeys.3102:

The point is, the current raid environment is not limiting because of the difficulty of the fights (they really aren’t that hard, tbh). It is limiting because of the disparity and huge differences between the different builds/professions/playstyles – and that is just BAD design.

There is difference between builds and playstyles, but having a disparity is not a reason to provide easier access to raids, especially if it was never intended. Also, “BAD design” is your opinion, and it doesn’t lend any weight to your argument.

Blaeys.3102:

The only way you are going to provide a comparable level of accessibility for (using the current game dynamic as an example) power based scrapper or revenant when compared to, say, a tempest, is to provide a tiered raid model. It may not be the perfect solution – it may not have been what the developers envisioned for raids – but it is very much needed at this point.

How is tiered modes needed at this point and why should they increase the accessibility? You haven’t given anything to support that it is needed, other than that people want it. Wants are not needs. Is the game going to die? Is mass quantities of people going to leave the game, if they can’t play raids? My guess is going to be “No” to both of those questions. And if the answer is “No”, how can you profess that there is a “need”?

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

The point is, the current raid environment is not limiting because of the difficulty of the fights (they really aren’t that hard, tbh). It is limiting because of the disparity and huge differences between the different builds/professions/playstyles – and that is just BAD design.

There is difference between builds and playstyles, but having a disparity is not a reason to provide easier access to raids, especially if it was never intended. Also, “BAD design” is your opinion, and it doesn’t lend any weight to your argument.

Blaeys.3102:

The only way you are going to provide a comparable level of accessibility for (using the current game dynamic as an example) power based scrapper or revenant when compared to, say, a tempest, is to provide a tiered raid model. It may not be the perfect solution – it may not have been what the developers envisioned for raids – but it is very much needed at this point.

How is tiered modes needed at this point and why should they increase the accessibility? You haven’t given anything to support that it is needed, other than that people want it. Is the game going to die? Is mass quantities of people going to leave the game, if they can’t play raids? My guess is going to be “No” to both of those questions. And if the answer is “No”, how can you profess that there is a “need”?

Of course it was my opinion. Get it into your head that the point of the forums is for us all (you, me – all of us) to express opinions. Stop attacking the poster and trying to make it sound nefarious when someone is simply expressing an opinion – and start discussing the topic itself. This constant diversionary tactic of attacking the person rather than trying to have a civil discussion is getting old and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.

Of course the game isnt going to die and it won’t cause people to mass exodus from the game. Trying to make it sound like I said that is another typical diversionary tactic -
trying to make it seem the discussion is between two extreme sides (making it easier to provide direct counterpoints).

The reality is, this isnt a black and white topic with extreme sides, even though some people have some pretty extremist attitudes about it.

My goal is greater interest in raids – more accessibility and a deeper experience that adds to how people enjoy the game – without compromising the challenge top end raids provide.

I see an issue with profession/build/playstyle variety as it pertains to raids. I also see what I believe to be a solution for that issue.

Telling me that is just my opinion is not a valid counterargument. It’s an evasion of the argument, plain and simple. Of course it is just my opinion – just as your opinion is just your opinion. (for the umpteenth time, were here to discuss our opinions).

Now – PLEASE – let’s get back to the actual conversation and not spend pages debating the definition of “opinion” or “want vs need” – or how bad a person I apparently am.

My opinion is we don’t need tiered raiding modes.

Vinceman.4572:

My opinion is we don’t need tiered raiding modes.

And I respect that opinion – and how you have chosen to defend it earlier in this thread – even though I obviously disagree with it.

I know that tiers bring a certain stigma from their use in other games. I played many of those games and saw the good and bad that this kind of model brings. I accept that they are not a perfect solution.

However, if not through the use of tiers, how do we address the accessibility issue? How do we normalize the experience between players who enjoy and are proficient on a condition ranger or power tempest with players who enjoy and are proficient on a power scrapper or revenant? And how do we better ensure that future balance patches don’t invalidate enjoyable playstyles in raids?

The tiered model is the solution I think best addresses this issue, but maybe there is a better one out there.

What would you suggest? Should players just accept that, in order to raid without frustration, they need to play something they may not enjoy? I really don’t like the idea of that.

Or do you see it as a non issue without the need for a solution?

Is it just that people hate the idea of tiered difficulty and – even if the system is broken (which I believe it is) – feel implementation of this kind of model would somehow corrupt the game?

I ask these questions because I think the conversation is worth having – and I believe there are still people who can have that conversation civilly. I would actually welcome it.

Blaeys.3102:

Vinceman.4572:

My opinion is we don’t need tiered raiding modes.

And I respect that opinion – and how you have chosen to defend it earlier in this thread – even though I obviously disagree with it.

I know that tiers bring a certain stigma from their use in other games. I played many of those games and saw the good and bad that this kind of model brings. I accept that they are not a perfect solution.

However, if not through the use of tiers, how do we address the accessibility issue? How do we normalize the experience between players who enjoy and are proficient on a condition ranger or power tempest with players who enjoy and are proficient on a power scrapper or revenant? And how do we better ensure that future balance patches don’t invalidate enjoyable playstyles in raids?

The tiered model is the solution I think best addresses this issue, but maybe there is a better one out there.

What would you suggest? Should players just accept that, in order to raid without frustration, they need to play something they may not enjoy? I really don’t like the idea of that.

Or do you see it as a non issue without the need for a solution?

Is it just that people hate the idea of tiered difficulty and – even if the system is broken (which I believe it is) – feel implementation of this kind of model would somehow corrupt the game?

I ask these questions because I think the conversation is worth having – and I believe there are still people who can have that conversation civilly. I would actually welcome it.

The main issue with all of your proposals are you want to change the fundamental concepts and target audience of Raids. Raids were intended to be the hardest content this game has to offer for organized groups, your ideas would completely undermine that and most players that want the easier modes want the exact same rewards as the current version which would make the current Raids meaningless.

Sly.9518:

The main issue with all of your proposals are you want to change the fundamental concepts and target audience of Raids. Raids were intended to be the hardest content this game has to offer for organized groups, your ideas would completely undermine that and most players that want the easier modes want the exact same rewards as the current version which would make the current Raids meaningless.

I think you will find pretty much everyone agrees that raids should always provide that challenge.

I know I still want raids to be the hardest content in the game – and any solution would have to retain the extreme challenge. The top tier would have to remain difficult. And, no, adding lower difficulties would not invalidate that experience.

In fact, I honestly believe that a tiered model would allow them to make that experience even more difficult – even more epic. With no concern for accessibility AT ALL (because it would be addressed by the lower tier), they would be free to go as extreme as possible with a top tier difficulty. And, in that same vein, there would be no storyline related concerns – allowing them to go as epic as they want inside the raid instannce.

And I think you will find that most players posting all agree that any lower tiers would need a lower reward. That is just common sense – and something I definitely support. Lower difficulty means lower reward.

Accessibility is the single biggest issue with raids, imo. It needs (imo – hate having to keep typing that) to be addressed in some way. Playing a power scrapper or revenant (or other sub par build/playstyle) shouldnt be as frustrating as it is. There should be a way for players enjoying those builds to enjoy the content comparable (in experience, not reward) to those who enjoy power tempests or condi rangers or chronotanks.

Again, if the answer isnt tiers, I would love to know what it is.

Blaeys.3102:

Sly.9518:

The main issue with all of your proposals are you want to change the fundamental concepts and target audience of Raids. Raids were intended to be the hardest content this game has to offer for organized groups, your ideas would completely undermine that and most players that want the easier modes want the exact same rewards as the current version which would make the current Raids meaningless.

I think you will find pretty much everyone agrees that raids should always provide that challenge.

I know I still want raids to be the hardest content in the game – and any solution would have to retain the extreme challenge. The top tier would have to remain difficult. And, no, adding lower difficulties would not invalidate that experience.

In fact, I honestly believe that a tiered model would allow them to make that experience even more difficult – even more epic. With no concern for accessibility AT ALL (because it would be addressed by the lower tier), they would be free to go as extreme as possible with a top tier difficulty. And, in that same vein, there would be no storyline related concerns – allowing them to go as epic as they want inside the raid instannce.

And I think you will find that most players posting all agree that any lower tiers would need a lower reward. That is just common sense – and something I definitely support. Lower difficulty means lower reward.

Accessibility is the single biggest issue with raids, imo. It needs (imo – hate having to keep typing that) to be addressed in some way. Playing a power scrapper or revenant (or other sub par build/playstyle) shouldnt be as frustrating as it is. There should be a way for players enjoying those builds to enjoy the content comparable (in experience, not reward) to those who enjoy power tempests or condi rangers or chronotanks.

Again, if the answer isnt tiers, I would love to know what it is.

Adding easier tiers to Raids makes Raids not the most challenging content, and there are no accessibility issues that aren’t imposed by the individual player themselves, it has been proven Raids can be completed using a multitude of different compositions and so on so actual difficulty isn’t an issue.

You are just wanting to change Raids from their intended concept and intended audience.

Let’s put this into perspective, Raiders asked for their own Niche content, they did not ask for another target audiences content be commandeered and changed to fit their wants, and needs. What you want is to take content not meant to be or designed to be easy and make it that way because of feelings, there is no other basis behind it.

Again there are no Syestem or Game imposed Accessibility issues with Raids, all issues are on the individual player.

And now players that didn’t want Raids to begin with are now trying to have Raids changed at the fundamental level for selfish reasons.

Sly.9518:

Adding easier tiers to Raids makes Raids not the most challenging content, and there are no accessibility issues that aren’t imposed by the individual player themselves, it has been proven Raids can be completed using a multitude of different compositions and so on so actual difficulty isn’t an issue.

You are just wanting to change Raids from their intended concept and intended audience.

Let’s put this into perspective, Raiders asked for their own Niche content, they did not ask for another target audiences content be commandeered and changed to fit their wants, and needs. What you want is to take content not meant to be or designed to be easy and make it that way because of feelings, there is no other basis behind it.

Again there are no Syestem or Game imposed Accessibility issues with Raids, all issues are on the individual player.

And now players that didn’t want Raids to begin with are now trying to have Raids changed at the fundamental level for selfish reasons.

It isnt about easy versus hard.

As I stated a few posts back, the disparity between (for instance) a power scrapper and a power ele or condi ranger is pretty extreme, even in the same level gear with the best possible skills and traits equipped. That is mathematically evident – and the same can be said to be true of many different professions/builds/playstyles.

The result is that a player who enjoys playing something like a chronotank (which I play in raids every week, btw) will have a less frustrating and more accessible experience than someone playing pretty much any kind of revenant (as just one example).

Yes, there is a player imposed element to it, but the math is there to show that there are design justifications for that exclusionary imposition – and that is where the issue begins.

Adding a lower tier of difficulty would not mean changing the higher one (common sense). It would still be the most difficult content in the game (more common sense). All it would do is give those people who enjoy playing the less desired builds/professions/playstyles the ability to enjoy the content/story (what there is of it)/etc without the current frustration.

It isn’t about being selfish (unless you’re talking about people not wanting those player enjoying professions like the revenant or scrapper to have that experience because it would magically hurt the top tier) or wanting to take anything away from the “desired audience” you reference.

It is about normalizing the experience and improving accessibility – something desperately needed (again IMO – ugh) right now.

Maybe future raids could be 5 men instead. It would GREATLY increase accessibility for many players.

Blaeys.3102:

Sly.9518:

Adding easier tiers to Raids makes Raids not the most challenging content, and there are no accessibility issues that aren’t imposed by the individual player themselves, it has been proven Raids can be completed using a multitude of different compositions and so on so actual difficulty isn’t an issue.

You are just wanting to change Raids from their intended concept and intended audience.

Let’s put this into perspective, Raiders asked for their own Niche content, they did not ask for another target audiences content be commandeered and changed to fit their wants, and needs. What you want is to take content not meant to be or designed to be easy and make it that way because of feelings, there is no other basis behind it.

Again there are no Syestem or Game imposed Accessibility issues with Raids, all issues are on the individual player.

And now players that didn’t want Raids to begin with are now trying to have Raids changed at the fundamental level for selfish reasons.

It isnt about easy versus hard.

As I stated a few posts back, the disparity between (for instance) a power scrapper and a power ele or condi ranger is pretty extreme, even in the same level gear with the best possible skills and traits equipped. That is mathematically evident – and the same can be said to be true of many different professions/builds/playstyles.

The result is that a player who enjoys playing something like a chronotank (which I play in raids every week, btw) will have a less frustrating and more accessible experience than someone playing pretty much any kind of revenant (as just one example).

Yes, there is a player imposed element to it, but the math is there to show that there are design justifications for that exclusionary imposition – and that is where the issue begins.

Adding a lower tier of difficulty would not mean changing the higher one (common sense). It would still be the most difficult content in the game (more common sense). All it would do is give those people who enjoy playing the less desired builds/professions/playstyles the ability to enjoy the content/story (what there is of it)/etc without the current frustration.

It isn’t about being selfish (unless you’re talking about people not wanting those player enjoying professions like the revenant or scrapper to have that experience because it would magically hurt the top tier) or wanting to take anything away from the “desired audience” you reference.

It is about normalizing the experience and improving accessibility – something desperately needed (again IMO – ugh) right now.

It has been proven that you don’t need the Meta Builds or classes in the slightest to complete Raids, Multiple times. Players can play their power scrapper or whatever they want and they can complete the Raids.

Every Accessibility issue is solely on the individual player not on the gamemode.

Again you are trying to change the Targt audience by commandeering the content, Raiders were kind enough to ask for their own separate content, not take someone else’s and turn it into something it wasn’t designed or intended to be.

Common sense shows this.

Raids were meant to be the most challenging content, making an easier version makes Raids not the most challenging content….

And no matter what adding in tiered versions slows down Raid development time taking away from Raiders content speed.

Sly.9518:

It has been proven that you don’t need the Meta Builds or classes in the slightest to complete Raids, Multiple times. Players can play their power scrapper or whatever they want and they can complete the Raids.

Every Accessibility issue is solely on the individual player not on the gamemode.

Again you are trying to change the Targt audience by commandeering the content, Raiders were kind enough to ask for their own separate content, not take someone else’s and turn it into something it wasn’t designed or intended to be.

Common sense shows this.

Raids were meant to be the most challenging content, making an easier version makes Raids not the most challenging content….

And no matter what adding in tiered versions slows down Raid development time taking away from Raiders content speed.

Again, it is not about absolutes. Can every profession beat every boss? Definitely. It’s been proven.

But the experience of playing some professions is much less frustrating than others. MUCH MUCH less frustrating – yes, partly because of player biases, but biases based on the extreme mathematical differences between those builds and professions.

And that disparity is the issue. Players shouldnt be punished (in terms of accessibility, at least) for enjoying one playstyle over another.

As to developer resources, I still contend that argument was invalidated by the use of challenge motes on every boss in the last wing. Instead of using challenge motes (which were almost universally disliked by hard core raiders), use story motes instead – designed to provide the tiered experience without the need for multiple instances. It solves the accessibility issue without detracting from the hardcore experience in any way whatsoever.

Blaeys.3102:

Sly.9518:

It has been proven that you don’t need the Meta Builds or classes in the slightest to complete Raids, Multiple times. Players can play their power scrapper or whatever they want and they can complete the Raids.

Every Accessibility issue is solely on the individual player not on the gamemode.

Again you are trying to change the Targt audience by commandeering the content, Raiders were kind enough to ask for their own separate content, not take someone else’s and turn it into something it wasn’t designed or intended to be.

Common sense shows this.

Raids were meant to be the most challenging content, making an easier version makes Raids not the most challenging content….

And no matter what adding in tiered versions slows down Raid development time taking away from Raiders content speed.

Again, it is not about absolutes. Can every profession beat every boss? Definitely. It’s been proven.

But the experience of playing some professions is much less frustrating than others. MUCH MUCH less frustrating – yes, partly because of player biases, but biases based on the extreme mathematical differences between those builds and professions.

And that disparity is the issue. Players shouldnt be punished (in terms of accessibility, at least) for enjoying one playstyle over another.

As to developer resources, I still contend that argument was invalidated by the use of challenge motes on every boss in the last wing. Instead of using challenge motes (which were almost universally disliked by hard core raiders), use story motes instead – designed to provide the tiered experience without the need for multiple instances. It solves the accessibility issue without detracting from the hardcore experience in any way whatsoever.

Having to balance your tiered modes will cause increased time more so than any challenge notes that add extra mechanics.

Sly.9518:

Having to balance your tiered modes will cause increased time more so than any challenge notes that add extra mechanics.

Im not convinced that is true. Most likely, in most cases, the best way to develop a more accessible mode would be to remove some of the more punishing mechanics from fights – basically the inverse of what they do with challenge motes (and probably a simpler process). I doubt that would take any more effort than adding in new mechanics (which have to be balanced as well) as they do with challenge motes.

If anything, I think it would take slightly few resources. Regardless, I doubt the difference either way would amount to anything significant.

(again and as always, solely my opinion)

And let’s not forget Challenge mores maintain Raids identity as being most challenging content while easy tiers don’t. Since common sense dictates that easy tiers Raids are still Raids, just not challenging.

When you add more work especially having to rebalance the encounters(every encounter per Tier) it will increase the production time, just slapping more mechanics in doesn’t take as much longer since they are rebalancing any of the other mechanics in regards to challlenge mores.

Blaeys.3102:

Of course it was my opinion. Get it into your head that the point of the forums is for us all (you, me – all of us) to express opinions. Stop attacking the poster and trying to make it sound nefarious when someone is simply expressing an opinion – and start discussing the topic itself. This constant diversionary tactic of attacking the person rather than trying to have a civil discussion is getting old and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.

Of course the game isnt going to die and it won’t cause people to mass exodus from the game. Trying to make it sound like I said that is another typical diversionary tactic -
trying to make it seem the discussion is between two extreme sides (making it easier to provide direct counterpoints).

Except that you said needs, which implies that without it, it can’t exist or continue to function. If it is a need, please prove it. Provide actual facts and evidence that it is needed, otherwise, you can’t claim that it is a need.

Blaeys.3102:

The reality is, this isnt a black and white topic with extreme sides, even though some people have some pretty extremist attitudes about it.

My goal is greater interest in raids – more accessibility and a deeper experience that adds to how people enjoy the game – without compromising the challenge top end raids provide.

Except, it is pretty black and white, those that want more modes added, and those that don’t.

My goal is less design interest in raids. The main design goal, of this games PVE, is LW and now expansion content, not Raids or fractals. I also do not want resources pulled from other areas of the game to provide further support for raids.

Blaeys.3102:

I see an issue with profession/build/playstyle variety as it pertains to raids. I also see what I believe to be a solution for that issue.

Just because you see it as an issue, does not in fact make it an issue. You have to first prove that it is an issue and why it needs to change. You can’t just assume that there is an issue and expect other people to agree with you on it, you have to convince them that there is. There is no point in discussing multi-tiered raiding with a community and company that doesn’t want it.

Is it an issue for some people, of course it is, that was intended. It really can’t be an issue with profession/build/playstyle variety, if it’s goal was to be exclusive. Now if you don’t think the goal should be to be exclusive, please show us why it should be changed.

Blaeys.3102:

Telling me that is just my opinion is not a valid counterargument. It’s an evasion of the argument, plain and simple. Of course it is just my opinion – just as your opinion is just your opinion. (for the umpteenth time, were here to discuss our opinions).

Except when you’re entire argument boils down to “this needs to happen” based off of your opinion, and you can’t provide any facts or evidence to support your claim, then yes, discarding your opinion is the only valid counterargument, esp when your opinions can/have been proven wrong.

Again, this road has been traveled down many times. You state your opinion and why you think it should happen, but never establish why it should, other than “needs”, which without supporting evidence, is not enough.

So are you here to just keep restating your opinion or have a discussion? Because having a discussion involves actual progress on the topic at hand, and opinions will not lead to progress. Esp when you disregard or don’t agree with other people’s supporting evidence of their opinions, without any of your own.

Sly.9518:

Raids were meant to be the most challenging content, making an easier version makes Raids not the most challenging content….

What would you consider to be the most challenging content in this game if it had no raids at all?

I don’t understand why it’s such a big problem that the game mode (supposed to be the hardest one in the game) requires a certain commitment and adaptation of a player. You can play power scrapper everywhere in the game, then why can’t we expect someone to play condi engi for raids. It requires a small bit of commitment, because it needs to be a challenge.

Every game does this, so i dont know why it has to be a problem in gw2, locking things behind difficulty/effort/ a certain playstyle is what defines gaming in many ways. If you want to win the Champions League in FIFA, you probably should take some defenders and not 10 attackers. If you want to win a round of Battlefield, you should probably bring some medics. If you want to win a Total War campaign, better create some balanced armies and mind your economy.

Even in this game, PvP and WvW require people to adapt their style and play different classes/builds if they want to have good chances of being succesful. You probably want an ele in your 5-man PvP team, maybe an engi, mes, thief,…. If you don’t have an ele, you should probably reroll.

Being forced to play in a way, and adapt and change to be able to beat a game is a core principle of gaming.

Blaeys.3102:

Again, it is not about absolutes. Can every profession beat every boss? Definitely. It’s been proven.

But the experience of playing some professions is much less frustrating than others. MUCH MUCH less frustrating – yes, partly because of player biases, but biases based on the extreme mathematical differences between those builds and professions.

And that disparity is the issue. Players shouldnt be punished (in terms of accessibility, at least) for enjoying one playstyle over another.

No one is actively punishing those people. They are playing the victim because they either don’t want to adapt their comp to the encounter or don’t want to master the encounter, neither of these (combined or separate) are reason enough to provide a “story mode”. I get that you don’t think it should, but I think it shouldn’t, esp something billed as “Challenging Group Content”. Raids weren’t called Challenging Group Content, Challenging Group Content was called Raids.

Blaeys.3102:

As to developer resources, I still contend that argument was invalidated by the use of challenge motes on every boss in the last wing. Instead of using challenge motes (which were almost universally disliked by hard core raiders), use story motes instead – designed to provide the tiered experience without the need for multiple instances. It solves the accessibility issue without detracting from the hardcore experience in any way whatsoever.

The challenge motes were disliked because they didn’t have increased rewards attached to them. Attach increased rewards, and boom, they are liked (see 100 CM for how it should be done).

As to the comment about developer resources, of course it would take more resources, to think otherwise is fooling yourself. Yes, Challenge Motes were added, but you don’t know how much of the 9 month cycle it took from Stronghold of the Faithful until Bastion of the Penitent came out, that they took.

The one thing that we should be able to agree on, is that if Challenge Motes had not been done, the wing could have come out sooner. So, if you aren’t adding more dev resources, then it would stand to reason that we would see a new Raid/wing every ~9 months. And if Raids are released every ~9 months, that doesn’t seem like it’s a major feature of the game, and if not a major feature, why spend any more resources on it than what you are, especially when it is doing as well as it has been.

Developing one challenge level is much easier than multiple levels, esp since you only have to balance around that one difficulty level and call it a day. Is it lazy development? Possibly, depends on perspective. But if I can spend a few resources here and get great returns (like raids are doing), why should I feel needed to spend more resources for marginal increases on the return, esp on something that isn’t a core feature of my product?

Blaeys.3102:

I still say that multiple levels would make it easier for the developers to accomplish this – freeing them up from any concerns of accessibility, while – for many – addressing the issue of accessibility and profession diversity in raiding at the same time.

Do you have anything to support why you feel that they have concerns of accessibility? I haven’t seen anything to indicate that they are concerned about the current accessibility. I have seen one post about them exploring accessibility, but I got the feeling that was more about making sure that the story was accessible, not the gameplay portion.

Blaeys.3102:

This has never been a treatise on the removal of challenging content – or even for watering it down in any way. Raids should be the hardest content in the game – but that doesn’t mean they cannot be adapted to offer secondary experiences for those looking for such a thing.

It also doesn’t mean that they should be adapted. Just because something could be, doesn’t mean it should be.

Blaeys.3102:

There is a need (yes I said it – but it’s still opinion – PLEASE dont make me have to explain word definitions again) for greater accessibility in the game mode. I know everyone doesn’t see it (we are all directed by our own in game experiences and environments), but it is there.

But it isn’t a need. A need implies that something will happen if it is not met. For example, if you don’t eat, drink, or sleep, you will die. Greater accessibility in raids are needed or…. what exactly? If nothing is going to happen if it doesn’t happen, it is no longer a need. Desire =/= need.

Baseleader.4128:

I don’t understand why it’s such a big problem that the game mode (supposed to be the hardest one in the game) requires a certain commitment and adaptation of a player. You can play power scrapper everywhere in the game, then why can’t we expect someone to play condi engi for raids. It requires a small bit of commitment, because it needs to be a challenge.

Every game does this, so i dont know why it has to be a problem in gw2, locking things behind difficulty/effort/ a certain playstyle is what defines gaming in many ways. If you want to win the Champions League in FIFA, you probably should take some defenders and not 10 attackers. If you want to win a round of Battlefield, you should probably bring some medics. If you want to win a Total War campaign, better create some balanced armies and mind your economy.

Even in this game, PvP and WvW require people to adapt their style and play different classes/builds if they want to have good chances of being succesful. You probably want an ele in your 5-man PvP team, maybe an engi, mes, thief,…. If you don’t have an ele, you should probably reroll.

Being forced to play in a way, and adapt and change to be able to beat a game is a core principle of gaming.

And you are right in everything you say here. Im not advocating the removal of any of this. The highest level of raiding should require adaptation and min/maxing (even moreso than it currently does, imo).

I still say that multiple levels would make it easier for the developers to accomplish this – freeing them up from any concerns of accessibility, while – for many – addressing the issue of accessibility and profession diversity in raiding at the same time.

This has never been a treatise on the removal of challenging content – or even for watering it down in any way. Raids should be the hardest content in the game – but that doesn’t mean they cannot be adapted to offer secondary experiences for those looking for such a thing.

There is a need (yes I said it – but it’s still opinion – PLEASE dont make me have to explain word definitions again) for greater accessibility in the game mode. I know everyone doesn’t see it (we are all directed by our own in game experiences and environments), but it is there.