Theoretical Spellbreaker DPS?

Theoretical Spellbreaker DPS?

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

I’m going to start by saying that I am not very good on the PvE side of buildcraft, which is why I came here. When it comes to Daggers on Spellbreaker, the common consensus is that the damage on them is too low to be useful in PvE. Despite that, I’m wondering if those people are taking the combination of several other factors into account when saying that. There are a few things that stand out to me:

Superior Runes of the Spellbreaker: These runes will pretty much mean a almost perma 7% damage increase against most enemies.

Pure Strike: This gives a 14% increase in damage vs boonless foes.

The Dagger AA: Does 15% extra critical damage.

There’s also Dual Wielding (although that doesn’t stack with quickness and didn’t work with daggers in the preview but that’s probably an oversight) and Rending Strikes might help with DPS as well.

I know the 2 target limit is also a downside to Daggers in PvE as well. Maybe the damage is bad no matter what but I didn’t want to count them out right away without at least trying to make them work.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

I just gotta say as a mesmer, that its downright infuriating that classes like war get 14% bonus damage for something as simple as the foe having no boons (especially with how much boon rip spellbreaker got), yet mesmers have to deal with kitten like 3% extra damage per easily destroyed illusion, not to mention losing that entire extra damage after shattering.

Anyway, I agree that spellbreakers dps won’t be as low as people claim it is, but it still won’t be the highest by any margin.

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Posted by: Tarasicodissa.7084

Tarasicodissa.7084

I didn’t try out any of the new elite specs yet (Anet’s lousy attempt to force players into terrible unfun gamemodes, Imma just wait till they’re available in PvE), but I’d be perfectly content if Spellbreaker is at least useful in some small subset of PvE content. From a quick look… could it be used in high level fractals? Mesmers are usually forced to bring disenchanter for quicker boonrip – but if spellbreaker can rip boons fast enough on his own, that would give the mesmer freedom to bring some other utility than can potentialy increase team’s DPS much more – and summon a much more useful phantasm – swordsman for more DPS or avenger for more alacrity.
Also if their power-based burst DPS is higher than berserker, that would also make them very strong for coordinated parties. Even in T4 fractals it’s usually about quick burst with meta setups. At this point condi PS is usually the only condition-based build in the whole party (sometimes along with druid).

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

There are very few reason to run Spellbreaker in PvE unless you are going by your personal preference over the effectiveness of a build.

I like that you are trying to look at different factors here. But people have considered the them all and more. They ended up realizing that any build they can come up with would be very lacking. It would be even weaker than any possible base warrior builds.
You could run STR/ARM/DIS, STR/ARM/TAC or even STR/TAC/DIS. All of these lines provide you with better modifiers than Spellbreaker while Berserker remains the best option if burst is what you are looking for.
The greatsword is a far superior PvE weapon while the axe remains the better swapping weapon. Both of which have their individual damage modifiers such as Forceful Greatsword and Axe Mastery on top of already being more powerful.
The choice of base traits along the Spellbreaker line as well as the choice of runes means very little since all of that applies equally to any other build and does not give a spellbreaker any advantage. One could even argue that Strength and Scholar will still be the better offensive choice depending on the situation.

I can see some uses such as solo fighting a strong champion. The block from counter would be quite useful as well as the ability to remove boons in some niche scenarios. But you’d most likely still stick to the greatsword and only use the dagger to remove boons, if at all.

Having said all of that and even if a spellbreaker had better damage than a power berserker or power warrior, it would still mean very little. The current state of balance pushed the condition berserker and condition PS into such powerful spots that nothing else comes even close.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Superior Runes of the Spellbreaker: These runes will pretty much mean a almost perma 7% damage increase against most enemies.

You can ignore those from consideration, as they are not unique to spellbreakers and can be used by any class (and most mobs do not have any boons anyway).

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

You can ignore those from consideration, as they are not unique to spellbreakers and can be used by any class (and most mobs do not have any boons anyway).

They’re also realistically worse than Scholar runes both because they offer precision that you cap out on elsewhere over ferocity and because the multiplier is worse in nominal situations.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: Grok Krog.9581

Grok Krog.9581

Only thing spell breaker has a chance of being in PvE is a Power PS but it’s damage is too low. All the traits and everything look promising but with the heavy nerf to Berserker’s Power and overall low damage there’s no reason to take it

Grok Walking Amongst Mere Mortals

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

Only thing spell breaker has a chance of being in PvE is a Power PS but it’s damage is too low. All the traits and everything look promising but with the heavy nerf to Berserker’s Power and overall low damage there’s no reason to take it

It’s more the fact that condi warrior is broken as hell, so no spec will ever measure up to it unless you push out and even more OP elite spec.

A class that brings the most powerful by far offensive group boosts in the game should never be a top DPS spec in PvE.

A warrior’s presence increases group DPS by 25%, it’s absurd that any warrior spec is even doing 30k DPS considering the raid DPS they contribute.

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Posted by: ButterPeanut.9746

ButterPeanut.9746

Only thing spell breaker has a chance of being in PvE is a Power PS but it’s damage is too low. All the traits and everything look promising but with the heavy nerf to Berserker’s Power and overall low damage there’s no reason to take it

It’s more the fact that condi warrior is broken as hell, so no spec will ever measure up to it unless you push out and even more OP elite spec.

A class that brings the most powerful by far offensive group boosts in the game should never be a top DPS spec in PvE.

A warrior’s presence increases group DPS by 25%, it’s absurd that any warrior spec is even doing 30k DPS considering the raid DPS they contribute.

That is only true for the PS/EA/Banner version.The condi PS version is definitely over tuned, but the pure condi DPS warrior is relatively competitive and doesn’t bring any of the group DPS increases.

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Posted by: Grok Krog.9581

Grok Krog.9581

According to QT the PS Berserker is one of the lowest of the high damage builds. I don’t see why they can’t buff a power warrior to do the same

Grok Walking Amongst Mere Mortals

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

According to QT the PS Berserker is one of the lowest of the high damage builds. I don’t see why they can’t buff a power warrior to do the same

Because even 30k is too much for a spec that boosts everybody else by 25%. If every other spec does a minimum of 30k DPS, you’re providing around 3-4k DPS worth of boost per person in raid as a PS.

That’s a 12-16k DPS raid boost. You’re literally half an extra class worth of DPS. It’s broken.

Only thing spell breaker has a chance of being in PvE is a Power PS but it’s damage is too low. All the traits and everything look promising but with the heavy nerf to Berserker’s Power and overall low damage there’s no reason to take it

It’s more the fact that condi warrior is broken as hell, so no spec will ever measure up to it unless you push out and even more OP elite spec.

A class that brings the most powerful by far offensive group boosts in the game should never be a top DPS spec in PvE.

A warrior’s presence increases group DPS by 25%, it’s absurd that any warrior spec is even doing 30k DPS considering the raid DPS they contribute.

That is only true for the PS/EA/Banner version.The condi PS version is definitely over tuned, but the pure condi DPS warrior is relatively competitive and doesn’t bring any of the group DPS increases.

One of the lowest ramp up condi classes, with powerful condi cleave/aoe, and strong breakbar damage to boot.

On the most survivable class in game to boot.

Any design intent should balance DPS ceiling by class armor and healthpool, utility/breakbar damage, and aoe/cleave capacity.

Which should put:

1- Ele
2- Thief

Ahead by 2k DPS of others.

3- Necro
4- DPS build mesmer
5- Engineer
6- Guardian
7- Ranger
8- Revenant
9- Warrior in that order given their survivability, utility, and breakbar damage ratios

Warrior is a completely broken outlier in PvE. It is ridiculously survivable, has great breakbar damage, has top tier support and dps builds.

Honestly, banners and PS need nerfing. At least druid’s group buffs come at the significant cost of DPS as do chronos.

PS also has a completely toxic interaction in the game where it makes most utilities and field combos that grant might redundant because of how easy and low cost it is to stack might as PS.

Fire field combos and utilities like blood is power and other might sharing builds like ele would gain value if the stupidly simple might stacking of PS were finally addressed.

Somehow alacrity, quickness, and revenant’s boon durations got nerfed, but the most powerful group boost in the game, might stacking, wasn’t even touched.

(edited by Zenith.7301)

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Posted by: ButterPeanut.9746

ButterPeanut.9746

According to QT the PS Berserker is one of the lowest of the high damage builds. I don’t see why they can’t buff a power warrior to do the same

Because even 30k is too much for a spec that boosts everybody else by 25%. If every other spec does a minimum of 30k DPS, you’re providing around 3-4k DPS worth of boost per person in raid as a PS.

That’s a 12-16k DPS raid boost. You’re literally half an extra class worth of DPS. It’s broken.

Only thing spell breaker has a chance of being in PvE is a Power PS but it’s damage is too low. All the traits and everything look promising but with the heavy nerf to Berserker’s Power and overall low damage there’s no reason to take it

It’s more the fact that condi warrior is broken as hell, so no spec will ever measure up to it unless you push out and even more OP elite spec.

A class that brings the most powerful by far offensive group boosts in the game should never be a top DPS spec in PvE.

A warrior’s presence increases group DPS by 25%, it’s absurd that any warrior spec is even doing 30k DPS considering the raid DPS they contribute.

That is only true for the PS/EA/Banner version.The condi PS version is definitely over tuned, but the pure condi DPS warrior is relatively competitive and doesn’t bring any of the group DPS increases.

One of the lowest ramp up condi classes, with powerful condi cleave/aoe, and strong breakbar damage to boot.

On the most survivable class in game to boot.

Any design intent should balance DPS ceiling by class armor and healthpool, utility/breakbar damage, and aoe/cleave capacity.

Which should put:

1- Ele
2- Thief

Ahead by 2k DPS of others.

3- Necro
4- DPS build mesmer
5- Engineer
6- Guardian
7- Ranger
8- Revenant
9- Warrior in that order given their survivability, utility, and breakbar damage ratios

Warrior is a completely broken outlier in PvE. It is ridiculously survivable, has great breakbar damage, has top tier support and dps builds.

Honestly, banners and PS need nerfing. At least druid’s group buffs come at the significant cost of DPS as do chronos.

PS also has a completely toxic interaction in the game where it makes most utilities and field combos that grant might redundant because of how easy and low cost it is to stack might as PS.

Fire field combos and utilities like blood is power and other might sharing builds like ele would gain value if the stupidly simple might stacking of PS were finally addressed.

Somehow alacrity, quickness, and revenant’s boon durations got nerfed, but the most powerful group boost in the game, might stacking, wasn’t even touched.

That is a slightly outdated way of thinking.

First lets talk about buffing roles. You are correct that warrior brings an absurd amount of mathematically buffs to a raid group between might, banners, and EA. However, they are attempting to address this with banners on 10 people, and with many of the new elite specs being able to stack group might (without combo fields btw). In addition, I would argue that warrior is in the best scenario out of warrior/druid/chrono because all of its buffs are tied to the base class and not the elite spec. Tying some of the buffs to the elite spec (i.e. druid and chrono) means that we are forever tied to those elite specializations to some extent.

Now lets talk about DPS roles. Giving a list of which class should do most DPS based on a tiny subset of factors is incorrect, especially including survivability. When you account for the addition of chrono/druid into raid groups, for each classes ability to avoid damage, and for the number of attacks in raids that are either base health % or 1 shot kills, you end up at a place where every DPS class is effectively just as survivable as everything else. A berserker daredevil who never gets hit is more survivable than a necro with full shroud who gets hit by everything. This means that its base health is no reason for daredevil to systematically do more damage than necro.

In addition, CC is just one tiny aspect of “utility” and even so condi DPS warrior brings Headbutt and that’s it.

CC as a utility is inherently influenced by the encounter design. For example, having a short cooldown headbutt doesn’t matter at all for fights where there is no CC (i.e. Mursaat Overseer) or fights where the CC is a very infrequent (i.e. Xera) because other classes can account for strong CC on longer cooldowns (i.e. Mesmer)

Utility is so much more generic that that, which makes utility an impossible factor to measure a pure DPS build by. For example, Xera is a fight where the best utility is extremetly strong AOE pressure due to the number of adds in the fight and how deadly they are. This is what makes fresh air staff ele “best in slot” as a DPS class on Xera, even though on the golem it is 8k+ worse than other DPS classes.

Take necro for example, it is very strong on Mursaat overseer because epidemic trivializes the adds and it is pretty easy to place your chill fields on static fights.

All of this boils down to the point that there are so many factors about what extra utility DPS classes can bring, that it is impossible to balance their pure DPS against them. IMO, an ideal state is where every class has a DPS build/builds that are relatively close to one another (5-10%ish), and then the meta is determined by the players skill on that class and the utility that is required based on the encounter design. This means that no DPS class is systematically better than any other, but they may be on specific encounters.

(edited by ButterPeanut.9746)

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Posted by: CptAurellian.9537

CptAurellian.9537

Now lets talk about DPS roles. Giving a list of which class should do most DPS based on a tiny subset of factors is incorrect, especially including survivability.
[…]
IMO, an ideal state is where every class has a DPS build/builds that are relatively close to one another (5-10%ish), and then the meta is determined by the players skill on that class and the utility that is required based on the encounter design. This means that no DPS class is systematically better than any other, but they may be on specific encounters.

I definitely agree with the first part, but only partly with the second. All classes should have an effective dps spec, but there should be some differentiation. That would be more healthy for class diversity than trying to bring all dps specs very close.

If we take a range of 30k (effective) to 36k (optimal), then a class that already has two guaranteed support slots should not have a dps spec that gets significantly above 30k. On the other hand, classes that bring nothing except raw dps should be balanced close to the optimum.

It’s already bad enough that three classes block 6/10 raid slots. There shouldn’t be any objective reason to have those even in the 4 dps slots, which are contested by 6 classes.

Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

On the other hand, classes that bring nothing except raw dps should be balanced close to the optimum.

So, want for eles to get nerfed again?

Actions, not words.
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Posted by: ButterPeanut.9746

ButterPeanut.9746

Now lets talk about DPS roles. Giving a list of which class should do most DPS based on a tiny subset of factors is incorrect, especially including survivability.
[…]
IMO, an ideal state is where every class has a DPS build/builds that are relatively close to one another (5-10%ish), and then the meta is determined by the players skill on that class and the utility that is required based on the encounter design. This means that no DPS class is systematically better than any other, but they may be on specific encounters.

I definitely agree with the first part, but only partly with the second. All classes should have an effective dps spec, but there should be some differentiation. That would be more healthy for class diversity than trying to bring all dps specs very close.

If we take a range of 30k (effective) to 36k (optimal), then a class that already has two guaranteed support slots should not have a dps spec that gets significantly above 30k. On the other hand, classes that bring nothing except raw dps should be balanced close to the optimum.

It’s already bad enough that three classes block 6/10 raid slots. There shouldn’t be any objective reason to have those even in the 4 dps slots, which are contested by 6 classes.

All you are doing is adding to the problem. A balanced state for DPS classes is not where they are filled by 6 professions. It is one where they are filled by all 9 professions where the mechanics of the encounter determine the “meta” for that particular encounter. If your group wants to run 6 warriors, then why should you be systematically worse than running some other DPS combo? You may on certain encounters, but not across the board.

Ideally the buffing roles should have some alternatives as well, but that’s a tougher issue. Hopefully firebrand can be a viable quickness option

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Posted by: narcx.3570

narcx.3570

\
All you are doing is adding to the problem. A balanced state for DPS classes is not where they are filled by 6 professions. It is one where they are filled by all 9 professions where the mechanics of the encounter determine the “meta” for that particular encounter. If your group wants to run 6 warriors, then why should you be systematically worse than running some other DPS combo? You may on certain encounters, but not across the board.

Ideally the buffing roles should have some alternatives as well, but that’s a tougher issue. Hopefully firebrand can be a viable quickness option

Your group literally can run 6 warriors… Condi DPS War has the 2nd highest benchmark on small hitbox enemies, beating out every single DPS-only class except Eles… (And third highest vs large hitbox after Ele and DH).

Even if you wanted to be cheap and not bother to make a DPS set for your warrior, you still do 30k in your CPS gear/build, so bringing 6 of those would still be more than enough DPS to comfortably do any boss.

You have to admit that you see their point though, right…? It sucks if say you’re a Necro, Rev, Engie, or even a Thief main… and suddenly your only hope of getting into a group is being eclipsed by warrior players who already monopolize two mandatory support spots and now they’re taking your dps spots too. It’s actually kind of funny, because there’s another thread here where someone posted about Deadshot being “The New PS” and the warrior community lost their collective minds about people trying to replace them in the raid meta—it can’t go both ways guys. :P

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

People made all sorts of claims about most of the HoT elites, only a few of which turned out to be true. For example, the Chronotank wasn’t “invented” until folks were playing around with Raids (some time after HoT launched).

In other words, I don’t take any stock in predictions people are making today about DPS or utility. At best, those are just the starting places for messing around with PoF builds. Clever players will evolve all sorts of interesting synergies and uses that we haven’t even dreamed of yet.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: ButterPeanut.9746

ButterPeanut.9746

snip

Your group literally can run 6 warriors… Condi DPS War has the 2nd highest benchmark on small hitbox enemies, beating out every single DPS-only class except Eles… (And third highest vs large hitbox after Ele and DH).

Even if you wanted to be cheap and not bother to make a DPS set for your warrior, you still do 30k in your CPS gear/build, so bringing 6 of those would still be more than enough DPS to comfortably do any boss.

You have to admit that you see their point though, right…? It sucks if say you’re a Necro, Rev, Engie, or even a Thief main… and suddenly your only hope of getting into a group is being eclipsed by warrior players who already monopolize two mandatory support spots and now they’re taking your dps spots too. It’s actually kind of funny, because there’s another thread here where someone posted about Deadshot being “The New PS” and the warrior community lost their collective minds about people trying to replace them in the raid meta—it can’t go both ways guys. :P

I don’t PUG ever so I don’t really see it as competing or monopolizing the DPS slots. I see it as more alone the lines of having static members try out different DPS builds on different encounters where they are most beneficial. For example, maybe you take DPS warriors on Gorseval if your group is struggling to DPS the boss and do orbs at the same time with eles. (if your group still does that strat)

In terms of the buffing classes, I don’t think we’ll ever move away from wanting buffs like banners. However, the balance is moving in the direction of not requiring double of the buffing classes/builds. If condi PS were tuned down a bit (as it should be) there could be alternative might stacking builds and then the warrior just runs double banner. You lose EA on 5 people but pending on the group comp that could be marginal in comparison to other changes.

Same with druid in regards to spirits. If they were 10 people you could run a comp with just 1 druid as you really only lose spotter on 5 people and 1-2 stacks of GoTL. Pending on other balance, that could be a fair tradeoff.

Overall my point was that when filling DPS slots, just because warrior/ranger/mesmer have “support” builds doesn’t mean their balance for their DPS variants should be systematically lower. They each have their pros/cons for damage based on their class, but an ideal balance state is where all 9 professions have viable damage builds, and the player skill/encounter design/what players want to play, is what determines the appropriate DPS classes for that encounter.

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Posted by: nagr.1593

nagr.1593

\
All you are doing is adding to the problem. A balanced state for DPS classes is not where they are filled by 6 professions. It is one where they are filled by all 9 professions where the mechanics of the encounter determine the “meta” for that particular encounter. If your group wants to run 6 warriors, then why should you be systematically worse than running some other DPS combo? You may on certain encounters, but not across the board.

Ideally the buffing roles should have some alternatives as well, but that’s a tougher issue. Hopefully firebrand can be a viable quickness option

Your group literally can run 6 warriors… Condi DPS War has the 2nd highest benchmark on small hitbox enemies, beating out every single DPS-only class except Eles… (And third highest vs large hitbox after Ele and DH).

Even if you wanted to be cheap and not bother to make a DPS set for your warrior, you still do 30k in your CPS gear/build, so bringing 6 of those would still be more than enough DPS to comfortably do any boss.

You have to admit that you see their point though, right…? It sucks if say you’re a Necro, Rev, Engie, or even a Thief main… and suddenly your only hope of getting into a group is being eclipsed by warrior players who already monopolize two mandatory support spots and now they’re taking your dps spots too. It’s actually kind of funny, because there’s another thread here where someone posted about Deadshot being “The New PS” and the warrior community lost their collective minds about people trying to replace them in the raid meta—it can’t go both ways guys. :P

So what? A group can stack 6 condi ranger instead and have better dps on whole. Like previous dude said, using armor and health as entire benchmark for survivability is kinda silly.. for longest time war meta didn’t have single stun break or ‘safe’ skill either, now we have at least one and it’s usually on cd when we need it for that purpose. I say give us something like mesmer sword 2 (evade frame on short cd), nerf our dps, and call it a day. everyone wins.

I think they were on right track with recent changes tho. For longest there were people (including me) complaining of ele being unmatched in top tier dps, no class even came close to it. Guess what they’re still top but they have other that can come close now.

If you think condi ps can ever realistically reach 30k dps in raid setting then i am going to laugh at you. The best i seen is ~23k on Sab and dps war is generally 4-6k better. For bosses like KC too, condi ps will always be last dps when compare to other dps classes. They are just awful for large hitbox like KC so i don’t know why you think they are one of best for it.

The truth is we will never reach balance where everyone is satisfy. Im just glad they got rid of 5 necro groups for fotm, i was tired of dying cos of low boons and/or getting kicked cos i did not play a necro. Guess what i am happy that we don’t have to return to that, but that just me.

Arun Kar

(edited by nagr.1593)