Guild Wars 2

Pre patch me and some guildies already discussed the traditional ele’s position:

- Require stationary targets
- Low sustain
- High burst damage, less sustained damage
- And you kinda need to camp fire with staff

Now future raid mechanics might require more AOE/burst and we might see more use for the DPS ele.

DutchRiders.2871:

Pre patch me and some guildies already discussed the traditional ele’s position:

- Require stationary targets
- Low sustain
- High burst damage, less sustained damage
- And you kinda need to camp fire with staff

Now future raid mechanics might require more AOE/burst and we might see more use for the DPS ele.

This is true for traditional eles. However, Tempest does not require stationary targets because you can move while overloading. It may also be possible that the best tempest damage for moving raid bosses will come by using both fire and air overload, which allows you to use earth or water during their downtime. You simply need to think outside the box in this case.

However, the survivability problems still remain and taking a tempest that does the same amount of damage and gives the same amount of support as other damage dealers yields no benefit. The tempest needs at least a survivability boost or a damage boost if it is to be worth something in the raiding scene in my opinion.

Getting a healing tempest spec probably won’t work because of druid.

Welcome to the hell that was necromancer. Enjoy it, it lasts at least 3 years.

Did anyone test Headshot on a breakerbar? How bad was it?

I love my thief, but yeah, it sounds like they won’t really be bringing much to raids. Much sad.

dlonie.6547:

Did anyone test Headshot on a breakerbar? How bad was it?

I love my thief, but yeah, it sounds like they won’t really be bringing much to raids. Much sad.

I heard from [SC] that staff Daredevil is quite good. /summon Tobi and Nat.

Guys. Reaper deserves the highest damage output. :P

Iris Ng.9845:

dlonie.6547:

Did anyone test Headshot on a breakerbar? How bad was it?

I love my thief, but yeah, it sounds like they won’t really be bringing much to raids. Much sad.

I heard from [SC] that staff Daredevil is quite good. /summon Tobi and Nat.

ears perk up

Really? M-m-my thief? He’s not…dead?

Don’t toy with me like this.

That dork claims daredevil will be a very good tank. I suppose… if by tank you mean guy-with-many-dodges-but-if-you-miss-one-you-die.
It’s ok tho, I healz.
…I have the feeling I’m not gonna enjoy it.
No really, guys are blowing it out of proportion just as much as I love to whine about rangers. A few runs done with many engis and little eles and all of a sudden WEEE OMG ELES DED. It doesn’t work like that. Eles will always be desired unless they get hit by the nerfbat at least 2 more times – they got everything, and daredevils have an indefinite amount of dodges and acceptable sustain with IP. Problem is, well, doesn’t the guy aggro on toughness?
Whatever, it’s not like all raid bosses will share the same mechanic and same optimal teamcomp, yeah? Don’t freak out.

omgimnevergonnamakeitsomg
/freaks out

deSade.9437:

T Eles will always be desired unless they get hit by the nerfbat at least 2 more times – they got everything,

“Eles have everything”.

This is the most common profession myth in the game.

Ganathar.4956:

“Eles have everything”.

Like relying on stationary enemies which you can’t even cripple.

dlonie.6547:

Iris Ng.9845:

dlonie.6547:

Did anyone test Headshot on a breakerbar? How bad was it?

I love my thief, but yeah, it sounds like they won’t really be bringing much to raids. Much sad.

I heard from [SC] that staff Daredevil is quite good. /summon Tobi and Nat.

ears perk up

Really? M-m-my thief? He’s not…dead?

Don’t toy with me like this.

Staff 2 is about the same dmg as a sub 25% HS, you get a 29,5% modifier instead of the 15% initiative modifier and your dodges will deal around 15k. So yes, daredevil <3

Didn’t test it myself, but the staff auto is apparently doing more dmg than dagger auto as well.

Ganathar.4956:

deSade.9437:

T Eles will always be desired unless they get hit by the nerfbat at least 2 more times – they got everything,

“Eles have everything”.

This is the most common profession myth in the game.

Sure that you lose your maximum staff effectivness on moving foes. But shall I recall you that staff elementalist weren’t wanted before the aknowledgement of the PS warrior? At that time people asked you to play D/F or D/D (even S/D sometime).

From my point of view, this raid sample favour S/x ele/tempest.
A good old fresh air S/D ele/tempest build should be pretty interesting with a proper rotation. (It would provide both damage and support)
A D/D or D/Wh fresh air melee build could also be a pretty good. I don’t know how hard air overload hit with 25 might/25 vuln but it shouldn’t be shabby and on a low cool down due to fresh air, that’s one hell of an option.
Staff ele as healing support option also have their place out there.

On the subject of the ele being squishy. The boss himself wasn’t really doing any damage at all. The only things that were threatening were the red sphere and the lightning field thingy. Not to say that the elementalist still have a large access to protection and a fresh air rotation put you into water almost every 10 second which should be more than enough to keep even the squishiest elementalist alive in this raid sample that we’ve tested.

Dadnir.5038:

Sure that you lose your maximum staff effectivness on moving foes. But shall I recall you that staff elementalist weren’t wanted before the aknowledgement of the PS warrior? At that time people asked you to play D/F or D/D (even S/D sometime).

Pugs asked for D/D ele? Like when did that happen? Before PS warriors you had one ele as a staff ele and the second one as a S/X + LH to stack might. D/F was never good outside of high scales fractals due to higher survivability than LH ele who basically had no defense.

From my point of view, this raid sample favour S/x ele/tempest.
A good old fresh air S/D ele/tempest build should be pretty interesting with a proper rotation. (It would provide both damage and support)
A D/D or D/Wh fresh air melee build could also be a pretty good. I don’t know how hard air overload hit with 25 might/25 vuln but it shouldn’t be shabby and on a low cool down due to fresh air, that’s one hell of an option.
Staff ele as healing support option also have their place out there.

Good old S/D fresh air? Did you posted in a proper forum?

rotten.9753:

Ganathar.4956:

“Eles have everything”.

Like relying on stationary enemies which you can’t even cripple.

Which depends on the skill of your tank. How’s about learning from better players?

Snowball.3497:

To get some perspective on ele in raids I’ve uploaded a short video of my attempts;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAB8Nv_Nem0

Now I do agree with the general opinion that the elementalist role gets outshined by others.
The two strongest positions I’ve found is either play as the ‘tank’ to keep the vale guardians aggro or as a fresh air tempest for moderate damage on the move.

Notice until the first split, the boss hardly moved? And they finished the first phase in only 2 minutes.

Iris Ng.9845:

Which depends on the skill of your tank. How’s about learning from better players?

Tank, keq.

Maybe instead of copying tactics from few first successful tries you should try figuring it by yourself? I recall “better players” ranging lupicus back in a day because that’s how it was done by the first few teams.

Notice until the first split, the boss hardly moved? And they finished the first phase in only 2 minutes.

Only? That’s about 6k dps per a team member.

rotten.9753:

Iris Ng.9845:

Which depends on the skill of your tank. How’s about learning from better players?

Tank, keq.

Maybe instead of copying tactics from few first successful tries you should try figuring it by yourself? I recall “better players” ranging lupicus back in a day because that’s how it was done by the first few teams.

Notice until the first split, the boss hardly moved? And they finished the first phase in only 2 minutes.

Only? That’s about 6k dps per a team member.

Back in the days, smart people actually watched better players like this one guy to learn how to melee Lupicus. And those guys are actually in guilds who don’t use pug tactics and instead educate others to use a more efficient way. Please don’t put yourself in the denial state.

After the first split, did the boss really move around at all?

Let’s compare it with NA’s first kill with 1:50 minutes until the split. Are you gonna use the 6k DPS per team member card? Is it truly the highest DPS number will win the raid? Laughable!

MasterBlaster.6827:

dlonie.6547:

Iris Ng.9845:

dlonie.6547:

Did anyone test Headshot on a breakerbar? How bad was it?

I love my thief, but yeah, it sounds like they won’t really be bringing much to raids. Much sad.

I heard from [SC] that staff Daredevil is quite good. /summon Tobi and Nat.

ears perk up

Really? M-m-my thief? He’s not…dead?

Don’t toy with me like this.

Staff 2 is about the same dmg as a sub 25% HS, you get a 29,5% modifier instead of the 15% initiative modifier and your dodges will deal around 15k. So yes, daredevil <3

Didn’t test it myself, but the staff auto is apparently doing more dmg than dagger auto as well.

I tested the Staff auto. It loops one sequence (Staff Strike -> Staff Bash -> Punishing Strikes -> repeat) every 2.04 seconds, while Dagger and Sword are at 2.07 and 2.52 for their chains respectively. On top of this, it also hits harder than Sword by about 10% in total.

So along with all the damage modifiers from Daredevil’s traitline and the damage on Bound and the damage from Vault + Weakening Charge + autos, it’s the absolute best damage weapon Thieves will have in the game by a large margin. It’s going to be the raid go-to.

Along with that damage they will also have some nice bouts of CC with Palm Strike + Impact Strike, good mobility since they are free to take Shortbow secondary (some future fights may require fast movement, who knows), and good self-survivability. The only thing I would ever take damage from in the Vale Guardian fight is the constant AoE pulse of slow damage that got healed up by teammates. Otherwise, the huge amount of evasion was fantastic.

Auesis.7301:

MasterBlaster.6827:

dlonie.6547:

Iris Ng.9845:

dlonie.6547:

Did anyone test Headshot on a breakerbar? How bad was it?

I love my thief, but yeah, it sounds like they won’t really be bringing much to raids. Much sad.

I heard from [SC] that staff Daredevil is quite good. /summon Tobi and Nat.

ears perk up

Really? M-m-my thief? He’s not…dead?

Don’t toy with me like this.

Staff 2 is about the same dmg as a sub 25% HS, you get a 29,5% modifier instead of the 15% initiative modifier and your dodges will deal around 15k. So yes, daredevil <3

Didn’t test it myself, but the staff auto is apparently doing more dmg than dagger auto as well.

I tested the Staff auto. It loops one sequence (Staff Strike -> Staff Bash -> Punishing Strikes -> repeat) every 2.04 seconds, while Dagger and Sword are at 2.07 and 2.52 for their chains respectively. On top of this, it also hits harder than Sword by about 10% in total.

So along with all the damage modifiers from Daredevil’s traitline, it’s the absolute best damage weapon Thieves will have in the game by a large margin. It’s going to be the raid go-to.

Alright, I admit now I’m interested.

deSade.9437:

That dork claims daredevil will be a very good tank. I suppose… if by tank you mean guy-with-many-dodges-but-if-you-miss-one-you-die.
It’s ok tho, I healz.

I’m not “that dork”, but I don’t see a huge difference between a daredevil loaded up on toughness/vitality gear who also mitigates damage through blinds, blocks, and frequent dodges, and controls enemies with knockdowns, daze, and stuns; and a guardian who loads up on toughness/vitality gear who also mitigates damage through blocks, protection, and regen, and controls enemies through knockback and wards. A daredevil loaded up in tank gear is not going to pay for missing one dodge. Are they as optimal as the guardian who can better make use of healing power in the tanking role? No, but that doesn’t mean they can’t fill the role properly specced/geared for it. Much of this conversation pre-supposes that meta is the only thing that can win the day, when meta means optimal or the best, not what can achieve victory. If thieves cannot take on the tank/control role in the soft-trinity that is a problem for the profession Arena Net needs to address to meet their goals, ¹ but I don’t think they are as bad as you make them seem.

¹ – Recently they’ve re-committed to all professions being able of taking on all roles, but in their own unique way. This is a goal they’ve had since release. I remember pre-release dungeon articles mentioning how they were doing dungeons with full ranger teams. Of course, as we found out those dungeons didn’t make good use of the soft-trinity, but I digress, their intent is that professions have enough variety that they can build for a certain role and succeed at it.

I guess I need to get on that mastery point grind then. Best news I’ve heard all day.

Thief on its own is already really good at tanking things, Invigorating precision is stupid

Iris Ng.9845:

Back in the days, smart people actually watched better players like this one guy to learn how to melee Lupicus. And those guys are actually in guilds who don’t use pug tactics and instead educate others to use a more efficient way. Please don’t put yourself in the denial state.

That was my point… For few months everyone, including every single guild, were ranging lupi. And when this guy and few others were claiming it’s possible to melee him, they were met with laughs.

You don’t even know if I’m a member of one of those guilds. So don’t assume you have some mandate of telling me who’s smart.

Ad personam, etc.

After the first split, did the boss really move around at all?

Let’s compare it with NA’s first kill with 1:50 minutes until the split. Are you gonna use the 6k DPS per team member card? Is it truly the highest DPS number will win the raid? Laughable!

Laughable is your notion that top pve guilds will be satisfied with that performance.

rotten.9753:

Ganathar.4956:

“Eles have everything”.

Like relying on stationary enemies which you can’t even cripple.

Yeah, you’re right, clearly staff eles don’t have any ccs, and are unable to slot any cc in their utilities. Silly me. How could I think that. I feel so very sorry for all the eles unable to spam 1-2 in fire for the entirety of the fight while other classes have to roll out an active defense/cc rotation and dps. Also, my other mistake was daring to presume that a good tank/hybrid/guywithaggro and controllers such as reapers, chronos and the like would actively contribute so that the whole team can dish out optimal dps.
Please, eles, accept my humble apology and I promise I won’t be so judgemental next time.
/crosses heart
But oh, if you wanna give eles for dead only because they gonna miss a few ticks of lava fonts – on the very first boss of the very first wing of the very first raid – and tear your hair out, be my guest.

deSade.9437:

Yeah, you’re right, clearly staff eles don’t have any ccs, and are unable to slot any cc in their utilities. Silly me. How could I think that.

Silly me, breakbars don’t exist.

This whole pity party is ridiculous. Dagger ele is one of the safest melee to play with, and staff ele was absurdly forgiving given that it’s rotation could be done a good distance away from aoe/melee cleave range while still being in range of boons.

A class with the utility of ele (and engineer, for that matter who should be getting nerfs) should not be top damage. Neither should warrior for that matter given the massive group DPS boost they provide and the incredibly forgiving perks of the class.

If you want to complain about difficulty, then by your standards ranger should be the supreme DPS class, if you’ve ever actually tried using 1h sword against mossman or archdiviner without a guardian feeding you aegis. In fact, 1h ranger is the only class who can’t even max melee thanks to the way 1h sword works.

Dagger ele has the largest range out of all melee weapons, there’s virtually nothing forcing you to be in striking distance other than when you do burning speed, which luckily also has a built in evade.

The issue with the tempest are the poorly tuned overloads, and the fact that after all these years Anet is painfully negligent in balancing autoattack damage (the bulk of sustained DPS).

If they buffed autoattacks in water and earth attunements to be in line with fire and air, the elementalist wouldn’t be in the rut it’s in in terms of NEEDING to rotate attunements just to do DPS because the moment you are stuck in water or earth your damage plummets (which is what overloads do).

Once they actually get off their kitten and balance autoattacks across classes (buff ele scepter and water/earth attunement autos for all weapons, and all class scepters except guardian for that matter; buff ranger shortbow, greatsword, 1h sword, axe mainhand; buff necromancer axe auto; buff mesmer autos on all their weapons), the differences in power DPS won’t be so painfully blatant.

Condi is a whole other can of worms as engineers just have way too much convenient condition coverage and cleaving relative to the other classes, and burning completely overtook the other conditions and eclipsed them.

Tempest won’t see such a marked clash with overloads once being stuck in water or earth stops sucking because the autoattacks now actually do competitive DPS. Tweak the traits as well a bit as the overloads and tempest should be more than fine.

Too bad all classes couldn’t receive the polished development revenant did. Revenant is what all classes should have been designed as, but we all know that once they release core classes as they are, they never actually bother to fix them, especially when PvP balance keeps trumping PvE balance.

Zenith.7301:

This whole pity party is ridiculous. Dagger ele is one of the safest melee to play with, and staff ele was absurdly forgiving given that it’s rotation could be done a good distance away from aoe/melee cleave range while still being in range of boons.

A class with the utility of ele (and engineer, for that matter who should be getting nerfs) should not be top damage. Neither should warrior for that matter given the massive group DPS boost they provide and the incredibly forgiving perks of the class.

If you want to complain about difficulty, then by your standards ranger should be the supreme DPS class, if you’ve ever actually tried using 1h sword against mossman or archdiviner without a guardian feeding you aegis. In fact, 1h ranger is the only class who can’t even max melee thanks to the way 1h sword works.

Dagger ele has the largest range out of all melee weapons, there’s virtually nothing forcing you to be in striking distance other than when you do burning speed, which luckily also has a built in evade.

The issue with the tempest are the poorly tuned overloads, and the fact that after all these years Anet is painfully negligent in balancing autoattack damage (the bulk of sustained DPS).

If they buffed autoattacks in water and earth attunements to be in line with fire and air, the elementalist wouldn’t be in the rut it’s in in terms of NEEDING to rotate attunements just to do DPS because the moment you are stuck in water or earth your damage plummets (which is what overloads do).

Once they actually get off their kitten and balance autoattacks across classes (buff ele scepter and water/earth attunement autos for all weapons, and all class scepters except guardian for that matter; buff ranger shortbow, greatsword, 1h sword, axe mainhand; buff necromancer axe auto; buff mesmer autos on all their weapons), the differences in power DPS won’t be so painfully blatant.

Condi is a whole other can of worms as engineers just have way too much convenient condition coverage and cleaving relative to the other classes, and burning completely overtook the other conditions and eclipsed them.

Tempest won’t see such a marked clash with overloads once being stuck in water or earth stops sucking because the autoattacks now actually do competitive DPS. Tweak the traits as well a bit as the overloads and tempest should be more than fine.

Too bad all classes couldn’t receive the polished development revenant did. Revenant is what all classes should have been designed as, but we all know that once they release core classes as they are, they never actually bother to fix them, especially when PvP balance keeps trumping PvE balance.

qft

…

Curious what utility do Engi/Ele have that means they shouldn’t be able to pump out damage? I can think of some but they typically involve dropping your damage to get them. Not saying that both professions don’t have a ton of versatility and utility, but the idea of having everything all at once, I don’t think I’m on the same page.

Another reason I really want to see DPS Meters.

Jerus.4350:

Curious what utility do Engi/Ele have that means they shouldn’t be able to pump out damage? I can think of some but they typically involve dropping your damage to get them. Not saying that both professions don’t have a ton of versatility and utility, but the idea of having everything all at once, I don’t think I’m on the same page.

Another reason I really want to see DPS Meters.

Oh, I don’t know, the best access to the best combo fields (fire, water, smoke) on top of the largest amount of blast finishers, on top of easy might/fury stacking, built in aoe healing skills. In the case of ele, earth elemental glyph, lightning hammer for the classes with weaker autoattacks, glyph of elemental storm, and for both ele and engineer strong active defenses and damage delivery from safety (larger melee range for ele, same goes for engineer and both have easy access to blocks/evades/invulnerability).

Compare that to a necromancer. In the case of mesmer, outside being portal kitten they kick you for a guardian instead, and if it weren’t for alacrity botting they would have replaced you for a guardian. Same goes for rangers who don’t want to be forced into a healbot cleric stats druid.

There’s good reason why in terms of class solos/duos/trios some classes are represented while others are not. The disparity in access to boons and the good combo fields/finishers, on top of large single target and aoe DPS disparities adds to what we have seen with necro/mesmer/ranger being unwanted for general content over the others, since those three classes also happen to be at the end of the DPS spectrum.

Of course the place of these classes is called into question when they introduce something as absurdly over the top as revenant/herald. A class whose Unrelenting Assault does triple the damage of blurred frenzy, teleports you to a target, also evades, and grants 7 might stacks is a good example of how revenant just gets better versions of what other class has.

Rangers got a hotfix nerf to a gimmick spec that was wasting their heal just to boon stack, and in comes a herald who can permanently keep 12 stacks of might and perma fury on the group while maintaining all his DPS since revenant’s DPS comes from the highest mainhand sword autoattack DPS in the game (while they refuse to even buff mesmer or ranger autoattacks for garbage PvP reasons). A ranger stacking boons on himself by wasting his heal is too much, a revenant stacking it for the entire group is fine.

Really, just take out your ranger/necro/mesmer for a spin compared to ele/engi/warrior/thief. The difference in individual DPS is night and day, it’s so absurd. And it’s no coincidence that for two out of these three part of that is tied to fragile AI that gets cleaved out and doesn’t scale from runes/sigils/potions/food/ascended upgrades.

In fact, reaper and chrono are in the most precarious position due to pvp whine. Reaper rests entirely on gravedigger spam to stay relevant, yet all it takes is a QQ fountain from someone in pvp who ate a 12-14k gravedigger, and they’re already campaigning to nerf mesmer alacrity (which is the sole reason you pick a chrono over a guardian who brings easier reflect uptime, group aegis and boon uptime, and way higher DPS).

Ranger is just a pitiful pool of neglect. I mean, look at something like Most Dangerous Game or Strider’s Defense or moving Spotter from a power traitline to a traitline that is purely traps and shortbow conditions to know how utterly screwed the class is.

Ranger gets a bunch of on pet swap grandmasters/traits ignoring the fact that pets do not get baseline boon sharing with the ranger so you need a minor from crappy Nature Magic just so your pets can gain boons given to you, and when you swap pets all that might and fury is removed.

It’s just such a poorly designed class and frustrating in all aspects of the game.

Jerus.4350:

Curious what utility do Engi/Ele have that means they shouldn’t be able to pump out damage? I can think of some but they typically involve dropping your damage to get them. Not saying that both professions don’t have a ton of versatility and utility, but the idea of having everything all at once, I don’t think I’m on the same page.

Another reason I really want to see DPS Meters.

Fire fields, water fields, chill, many blasts, blind, block, invuln, good mobility

There are not many classes that have so much (essential) stuff, which is why they should’ve at least more DPS to be good as well.

I still can’t help but feel you’re exaggerating a bit and not giving the full picture. Yes Engi can drop fields like mad and has access to blasts, but it’s like 3-4 unless you drop your damage for more, and 2 of those are on delayed reaction. For Ele you can get water fields sure, but then you’ve given up access to whatever attuenment you wanted to be in dropping your damage.

Basically what I’m saying is this access to utilities isn’t completely free which I can’t help but feel you imply.

And personally I plan on playing A LOT of Reaper, I already like Necro but it was lacking Reaper seems solid to me. Also Chrono is already giving some people tinglies down there, hard to have pity on that. Sure PVP may ruin it for everyone, but what else is PVP good for? Lets hope it doesn’t. Lets not forget Ranger though, you know the number 2 condi profession, one that I really feel will take a solid spot in a raid as I think 1 ranger with sunspirit + 2 Engi may actually be superior, I haven’t really looked into that new pet condi stuff. And, lets not forget druid, you know the healer everyone used for the raid. Now that’s surely getting a nerf but I’d be shocked if it still wasn’t a fan favorite for that role.

I know you (and many of us) are salty about the lack of attention ANet has given Mesmers and Necros for a long time in PVE, but really, I think these Elite Specs are quite solid, barring some severe nerf they’re going to be sweet.

In the raids I’ve even seen multiple people report that they aren’t killing pets/phantasms/spirits with stray AE damage, that alone is huge. I’m excited, double shatter phantasms to throw them right back up and not have them poof from nothing. Not needing to micromanage my pets just to keep them alive. Yeah, gonna be sweet.

I’m a main Engi, went wild with that condi engi as soon as the specializations patch came in, glad to see it doing as well as it has, but right now I’m drooling over getting my Reaper.

assassin.7895:

Jerus.4350:

Curious what utility do Engi/Ele have that means they shouldn’t be able to pump out damage? I can think of some but they typically involve dropping your damage to get them. Not saying that both professions don’t have a ton of versatility and utility, but the idea of having everything all at once, I don’t think I’m on the same page.

Another reason I really want to see DPS Meters.

Fire fields, water fields, chill, many blasts, blind, block, invuln, good mobility

There are not many classes that have so much (essential) stuff, which is why they should’ve at least more DPS to be good as well.

Compared to Mesmer/Guard long lasting projectile defense, warriors 20+ might stacks with EA and banners (which can be used as blasts), or thieves stealth supremecy and chain blast options, superior blinds, better projectile defense, and mobility. Or maybe Condi cleansing options.

I don’t know, I’m fine with a toning down of Engi a slight bit, and ele, my point is more I don’t think that they have something that other professions don’t such that they shouldn’t be qualified to be right up there at the top. If there is one profession that I feel deserves top spot it’s necro, other than that I think there’s a lot of different utility options for every profession.

I’ll say the same thing I have before, IMO all professions should be right about 15k in their max DPS builds. Yes even if that means bringing Engi/Ele down. But I’m far more concerned with getting the poorly performing professions up than the high ones down is all. And the problem with Engi dps is it’s quoted as 20k, but please someone bring me a video of someone pulling it off, I want to bow to a master that I don’t believe exists

Jerus.4350:

assassin.7895:

Jerus.4350:

Curious what utility do Engi/Ele have that means they shouldn’t be able to pump out damage? I can think of some but they typically involve dropping your damage to get them. Not saying that both professions don’t have a ton of versatility and utility, but the idea of having everything all at once, I don’t think I’m on the same page.

Another reason I really want to see DPS Meters.

Fire fields, water fields, chill, many blasts, blind, block, invuln, good mobility

There are not many classes that have so much (essential) stuff, which is why they should’ve at least more DPS to be good as well.

Compared to Mesmer/Guard long lasting projectile defense, warriors 20+ might stacks with EA and banners (which can be used as blasts), or thieves stealth supremecy and chain blast options, superior blinds, better projectile defense, and mobility. Or maybe Condi cleansing options.

I don’t know, I’m fine with a toning down of Engi a slight bit, and ele, my point is more I don’t think that they have something that other professions don’t such that they shouldn’t be qualified to be right up there at the top. If there is one profession that I feel deserves top spot it’s necro, other than that I think there’s a lot of different utility options for every profession.

I’ll say the same thing I have before, IMO all professions should be right about 15k in their max DPS builds. Yes even if that means bringing Engi/Ele down. But I’m far more concerned with getting the poorly performing professions up than the high ones down is all. And the problem with Engi dps is it’s quoted as 20k, but please someone bring me a video of someone pulling it off, I want to bow to a master that I don’t believe exists

Your points are not really valid on giving up DPS for utility, because the fact is ranger gives DPS for no utility (his weapons with the exception of offhand axe have no utility whatsoever, and whirling defense has such horrendous DPS and makes you stationary so you’re giving up more DPS and survival for a reflect than an ele or engi ever will). In fact, ranger’s only utility comes from taking up a garbage traitline (skirmishing) for spotter, meaning he just wasted all minors and 2 worthless traits (the grandmasters are terrible) just for spotter, and his other utility lies in frost spirit, which comes at the opportunity cost of another DPS centric utility.

What’s more, engi also has longlasting access to projectile destruction, and mesmer reflection is not really longlasting. Feedback is half the duration of a wall of reflection more or less, and you gotta use a 90 sec cd utility to double on it, losing another utility slot in the process. Warden is a DPS loss phantasm that is immobile and dies immediately to melee cleave. Curtain has elevation issues so many projectiles ignore it and it needs to be traited to provide any utility, which involves taking up inspiration and as a result lose DPS.

So, not really, mesmer at least pays a whole lot more to bring utility over an ele, and a necromancer doesn’t even have an option to bring utility, corrosive poison cloud is projectile absorption and places 6 seconds of weakness on yourself, it’s hilariously bad.

When you point out projectile defense, an elementalist has swirling winds and ring of earth on top of magnetic aura, and if he traits in water instead of arcane (which actually does more DPS than arcane), you get aura sharing for magnetic aura share.

More importantly, combo fields/finishers are more universal than reflects. Reflects are good on fights where reflects are needed, they have zero value in fights where they are not. Combo fields and finishers are useful in EVERY fight. On top of that you have to look at the party gains from might/fury share and especially protection from elemental attunement minor.

They are not on the same league.

P.S. Chronomancer doesn’t even have much access to reflects since he has to run all wells on his utilities for alacrity share of the group, if he switches out one well for feedback, it’s not only minore reflection, but a sizable cut to the alacrity share he’s providing. He’s not going to have refletcs unless he traits for inspiration at the large expense of dueling or illusions.

I can only say I disagree, don’t feel like typing more than that.

Zenith.7301:

If you want to complain about difficulty, then by your standards ranger should be the supreme DPS class, if you’ve ever actually tried using 1h sword against mossman or archdiviner without a guardian feeding you aegis. In fact, 1h ranger is the only class who can’t even max melee thanks to the way 1h sword works.

Dagger ele has the largest range out of all melee weapons, there’s virtually nothing forcing you to be in striking distance other than when you do burning speed, which luckily also has a built in evade.

I realise ranger sword play is quite difficult (I play it) but have you ever consider attacking your target from behind when your pet tanks the damage?

Zenith.7301:

Your points are not really valid on giving up DPS for utility, because the fact is ranger gives DPS for no utility (his weapons with the exception of offhand axe have no utility whatsoever, and whirling defense has such horrendous DPS and makes you stationary so you’re giving up more DPS and survival for a reflect than an ele or engi ever will). In fact, ranger’s only utility comes from taking up a garbage traitline (skirmishing) for spotter, meaning he just wasted all minors and 2 worthless traits (the grandmasters are terrible) just for spotter, and his other utility lies in frost spirit, which comes at the opportunity cost of another DPS centric utility.

I’m quite curious why you think quick draw is terrible.

rotten.9753:

Zenith.7301:

If you want to complain about difficulty, then by your standards ranger should be the supreme DPS class, if you’ve ever actually tried using 1h sword against mossman or archdiviner without a guardian feeding you aegis. In fact, 1h ranger is the only class who can’t even max melee thanks to the way 1h sword works.

Dagger ele has the largest range out of all melee weapons, there’s virtually nothing forcing you to be in striking distance other than when you do burning speed, which luckily also has a built in evade.

I realise ranger sword play is quite difficult (I play it) but have you ever consider attacking your target from behind when your pet tanks the damage?

Because my pet is not tanking the damage. I’m lucky if my jaguars don’t get 2-shot by melee cleave.

rotten.9753:

Zenith.7301:

Your points are not really valid on giving up DPS for utility, because the fact is ranger gives DPS for no utility (his weapons with the exception of offhand axe have no utility whatsoever, and whirling defense has such horrendous DPS and makes you stationary so you’re giving up more DPS and survival for a reflect than an ele or engi ever will). In fact, ranger’s only utility comes from taking up a garbage traitline (skirmishing) for spotter, meaning he just wasted all minors and 2 worthless traits (the grandmasters are terrible) just for spotter, and his other utility lies in frost spirit, which comes at the opportunity cost of another DPS centric utility.

I’m quite curious why you think quick draw is terrible.

Because on a power spec at the standard sword+axe+longbow setup, it is.

Quick draw is good for a condi build due to its reduction on bonfire, but a reduction on path of scars isn’t really going to make a huge impact, and the trait doesn’t work on whirling defense.

Quick draw is good for a condi spec and that’s great because skirmishing is a condi centric build.

If power rangers could get spotter, they’d stick with marksman, beastmastery, and nature magic to stack on the damage modifiers.

Skirmishing lost its appeal post patch when the 10% damage from flanking got massively nerfed into a % crit increase from flanking, and the rest of the traits outside spotter are irrelevant to a power build.

Quick Draw can stand to be a worthwhile grandmaster if they ever buff greatsword out of garbage status by increasing the damage significantly of maul and the autoattack. Then you could run both sword and switch around.

In addition, I’d suggest buffing serpent strike’s damage considerably, it’s a 15 sec cd with a wind up and lower evasion frame than blurred frenzy/unrelenting assault, yet both of those skills do considerably more damage for some reason.

Even then, Quick Draw would be good but the rest of the traits, the minors and the adept, pretty weak still. Same goes for opening strike in the marksman minor, the fact that you need to trait into the grandmaster to make a minor usable in PvE is horrendous design.

Zenith.7301:

Because my pet is not tanking the damage. I’m lucky if my jaguars don’t get 2-shot by melee cleave.

If it’s dead anyway, maybe it would be a good idea to change it to more tanky pet? Like the saying goes, dead dps is no dps.

Because on a power spec at the standard sword+axe+longbow setup, it is.

Quick draw is good for a condi build due to its reduction on bonfire, but a reduction on path of scars isn’t really going to make a huge impact, and the trait doesn’t work on whirling defense.

Sure it does, you just have to cancel it just before before it ends (they both have 5s time limit).

One of the bosses in the Raid trailer which also shown gliding mechanic is very huge. It’s large hit box secure ele’s role in the Raid.

With the latest change to Daredevil, what Tobi said about Daredevil the strongest tanker couldn’t be closer to the truth! ;o

rotten.9753:

Zenith.7301:

Because my pet is not tanking the damage. I’m lucky if my jaguars don’t get 2-shot by melee cleave.

If it’s dead anyway, maybe it would be a good idea to change it to more tanky pet? Like the saying goes, dead dps is no dps.

Because on a power spec at the standard sword+axe+longbow setup, it is.

Quick draw is good for a condi build due to its reduction on bonfire, but a reduction on path of scars isn’t really going to make a huge impact, and the trait doesn’t work on whirling defense.

Sure it does, you just have to cancel it just before before it ends (they both have 5s time limit).

The drop of a jaguar to a drake is often forced but it also halves your pet’s DPS, and even the drakes kinda struggle to survive against 50 mossman/archdiviner cleave unless you spec BM instead of nature magic (losing fortifying bond so no perma 25 might, fury, etc because Anet for some incredibly stupid reason doesn’t allow the ranger to share boons with pet baseline) and make generous use of pet switch (losing might/fury stacks on your pet per switch).

I guess you can cut Whirling Defense short but cutting the duration to benefit from a trait is silly to begin with, the point stands that Quick Draw is a mediocre grandmaster trait.

I mean, all ranger grandmasters are. Look at predator’s onslaught, it’s essentially a crappier version of what thieves/warriors have (10% extra damage against foes with ANY condi, and 10% against any bleeding foe; both traits are also minors).

deSade.9437:

Isn’t it ironic how the trinity-guys got what htey wanted (the trinity) and now whine because it takes away diversity and makes teamcomps more rigid with demanding encounters?
Oh-ho, don’t you say.
Boo-kittening-hoo.

I’m loving it too lol. Watching them realize this is priceless, especially since we told them this would be the result while they were begging for this trinity-lite version of GW2.

Ganathar.4956:

deSade.9437:

T Eles will always be desired unless they get hit by the nerfbat at least 2 more times – they got everything,

“Eles have everything”.

This is the most common profession myth in the game.

The thing is: it does. It can be great at everything, or it can suck in everything, depends how well you can play the class.

So much stealth, condie dmg and vuln stacking.

Oxidia.8103:

Ganathar.4956:

deSade.9437:

T Eles will always be desired unless they get hit by the nerfbat at least 2 more times – they got everything,

“Eles have everything”.

This is the most common profession myth in the game.

The thing is: it does. It can be great at everything, or it can suck in everything, depends how well you can play the class.

What do you mean when you say “everything”? Is is really every aspect of the game or only the things that are relevant to current content?