Guild Wars 2

should feel like:

this is what it feels like now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zKhEw7nD9C4#t=64s

This is accurate.

I always thought of that scene from “Hero” as a live version of Dynasty Warriors.

DeumReaper.5821:

I always thought of that scene from “Hero” as a live version of Dynasty Warriors.

Lol yeah I see it, great movie anyhow.

Trash mobs should feel like trash mobs, not micro-bosses.

Even Diablo 3 got it wrong. In Diablo 2 you mowed through legions of demons and beasts, in Diablo 3 you ran in circles picking away at their health while desperately strafing in hopes of never being hit because it will kill you.

Mobs have too much health in GW2.

this is very accurate.

It’s cause they love adding silver mobs, instead of a bunch of normal mobs.

Non-bronze/silvers actually die really fast and feel like that, too bad they’re pretty few and far between.

I actually like the 1 silver mob + tons of trash groups way more then 3-4 silver mob groups. They should do more of those instead of all the stupid silver groups.

I do agree—

Would be nice to see lots of normal mobs bunched up instead of three or four Silver mobs.

With that said, I thought the trash in Dredge, Cliffside, and Grawl Fractals were a step in the right direction as far as the concept of trash goes. Lots of normal mobs with the occasional Veteran tossed in.

Strifey.7215:

It’s cause they love adding silver mobs, instead of a bunch of normal mobs.

Non-bronze/silvers actually die really fast and feel like that, too bad they’re pretty few and far between.

I actually like the 1 silver mob + tons of trash groups way more then 3-4 silver mob groups. They should do more of those instead of all the stupid silver groups.

Because tons of trash die from single aoe and silver mobs don’t?

Have you guys done that giant event in Arah path 4 post simin? It’s WAVES of silver mobs, illusionist, mages, hunters. IT"S HELL! EVERYONE COME!

Strifey.7215:

It’s cause they love adding silver mobs, instead of a bunch of normal mobs.

Non-bronze/silvers actually die really fast and feel like that, too bad they’re pretty few and far between.

I actually like the 1 silver mob + tons of trash groups way more then 3-4 silver mob groups. They should do more of those instead of all the stupid silver groups.

This. The starting mob group in Arah3 and the group after the alcohol boss in Arah1 are fun. It also elevates the status of silver mobs; the Arah ones COULD be fun since their attacks are quite varied and dangerous, but I can’t say the same about the other mobs in other dungeons.

And yeah – Fractals are sort of getting it right now, more paper thin mobs = more fun. More loot too!

Mr Hrouda even agrees trash mobs have too much HP.

kKagari.6804:

Strifey.7215:

It’s cause they love adding silver mobs, instead of a bunch of normal mobs.

Non-bronze/silvers actually die really fast and feel like that, too bad they’re pretty few and far between.

I actually like the 1 silver mob + tons of trash groups way more then 3-4 silver mob groups. They should do more of those instead of all the stupid silver groups.

This. The starting mob group in Arah3 and the group after the alcohol boss in Arah1 are fun. It also elevates the status of silver mobs; the Arah ones COULD be fun since their attacks are quite varied and dangerous, but I can’t say the same about the other mobs in other dungeons.

And yeah – Fractals are sort of getting it right now, more paper thin mobs = more fun. More loot too!

Mr Hrouda even agrees trash mobs have too much HP.

Adding more trash mobs instead of rebalancing elites will only make cc skills even more worthless. Same thing will happen to dodging. Too many mobs on the screen and you can’t see what’s going on, so you will just aoe.

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Strifey.7215:

It’s cause they love adding silver mobs, instead of a bunch of normal mobs.

Non-bronze/silvers actually die really fast and feel like that, too bad they’re pretty few and far between.

I actually like the 1 silver mob + tons of trash groups way more then 3-4 silver mob groups. They should do more of those instead of all the stupid silver groups.

This. The starting mob group in Arah3 and the group after the alcohol boss in Arah1 are fun. It also elevates the status of silver mobs; the Arah ones COULD be fun since their attacks are quite varied and dangerous, but I can’t say the same about the other mobs in other dungeons.

And yeah – Fractals are sort of getting it right now, more paper thin mobs = more fun. More loot too!

Mr Hrouda even agrees trash mobs have too much HP.

Adding more trash mobs instead of rebalancing elites will only make cc skills even more worthless.

Please explain the correlation between trash mobs and elite skills? Because AFAIK elite skills are so different such that it is almost pointless to generalize them all into one category.

And whats wrong with CC skills? As a guardian I’ve been able to use warding skills to great effect all the time in Arah. As a necromancer I often snare. As a thief I can hold off many non-champion mobs with blinds.

There should not be “trash mobs” in the game. As the name implies, those enemies aren’t interesting or well developed; they are just trash.

I agree with the idea of having fewer, more interesting enemies. That’s what we have in Ascalon Catacombs most of the time, though. It’s definitely not what we have in HotW, in which there are relatively few enemies, true, but instead of being interesting they are just massive HP walls.

kKagari.6804:

Please explain the correlation between trash mobs and elite skills? Because AFAIK elite skills are so different such that it is almost pointless to generalize them all into one category.

And whats wrong with CC skills? As a guardian I’ve been able to use warding skills to great effect all the time in Arah. As a necromancer I often snare. As a thief I can hold off many non-champion mobs with blinds.

You had to misunderstood me. Elites != elite skills but silver mob.

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Please explain the correlation between trash mobs and elite skills? Because AFAIK elite skills are so different such that it is almost pointless to generalize them all into one category.

And whats wrong with CC skills? As a guardian I’ve been able to use warding skills to great effect all the time in Arah. As a necromancer I often snare. As a thief I can hold off many non-champion mobs with blinds.

You had to misunderstood me. Elites != elite skills but silver mob.

nowhere in the game are they ever referenced as elite mobs.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=elite&fulltext=Search

But hey, thats beside the point. In the end if you rebalance them by lowering their hp, they essentially become regular mobs with fantastic skills, which is also a good thing. Kind of my point really, the hp is a real issue.

kKagari.6804:

nowhere in the game are they ever referenced as elite mobs.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=elite&fulltext=Search

But hey, thats beside the point. In the end if you rebalance them by lowering their hp, they essentially become regular mobs with fantastic skills, which is also a good thing. Kind of my point really, the hp is a real issue.

I guess that’s unofficial name then.

They have about 10-20 more hp than usual trash. I don’t think anet would decrease their hp by that factor.

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

nowhere in the game are they ever referenced as elite mobs.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=elite&fulltext=Search

But hey, thats beside the point. In the end if you rebalance them by lowering their hp, they essentially become regular mobs with fantastic skills, which is also a good thing. Kind of my point really, the hp is a real issue.

I guess that’s unofficial name then.

They have about 10-20 more hp than usual trash. I don’t think anet would decrease their hp by that factor.

Won’t be too sure about that:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Will-the-new-update-stop-skipping/first#post1205684
Even this guy thinks trash mobs have too much HP.

kKagari.6804:

Won’t be too sure about that:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Will-the-new-update-stop-skipping/first#post1205684
Even this guy thinks trash mobs have too much HP.

I said that they probably wouldn’t decrease their hp 10-20 times because that would have made them simple trash mobs. He only said about decreasing, but gave no specifics.

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Won’t be too sure about that:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Will-the-new-update-stop-skipping/first#post1205684
Even this guy thinks trash mobs have too much HP.

I said that they probably wouldn’t decrease their hp 10-20 times because that would have made them simple trash mobs. He only said about decreasing, but gave no specifics.

You really choose choice words to leave out of ur post. you said 10-20 in the original post btw. But hey whatevs, this topic was to give Mr Hrouda some visual stimuli of what could possibly be an interesting way to change dungeon trash fights.

kKagari.6804:

You really choose choice words to leave out of ur post. you said 10-20 in the original post btw. But hey whatevs, this topic was to give Mr Hrouda some visual stimuli of what could possibly be an interesting way to change dungeon trash fights.

I don’t think I left out anything.

Do you really think we should fight the horde of trash mobs? Isn’t that what we already have in open world and fractals?

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Won’t be too sure about that:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Will-the-new-update-stop-skipping/first#post1205684
Even this guy thinks trash mobs have too much HP.

I said that they probably wouldn’t decrease their hp 10-20 times because that would have made them simple trash mobs. He only said about decreasing, but gave no specifics.

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

nowhere in the game are they ever referenced as elite mobs.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=elite&fulltext=Search

But hey, thats beside the point. In the end if you rebalance them by lowering their hp, they essentially become regular mobs with fantastic skills, which is also a good thing. Kind of my point really, the hp is a real issue.

I guess that’s unofficial name then.

They have about 10-20 more hp than usual trash. I don’t think anet would decrease their hp by that factor.

Vastly different posts. Could’ve been percent, could’ve been hit points.

Because as other people have pointed out, much like how Diablo 2 gets it right; Killing stuff is fun. Hitting the same thing for 5 minutes with no chance of tactics required or difference in scenery is BORING.

Strifey.7215:

I actually like the 1 silver mob + tons of trash groups way more then 3-4 silver mob groups. They should do more of those instead of all the stupid silver groups.

^This.

There are some groups of trash that are still challenging (lots of trash bandits in CM p1 as an example.) Honestly though, so many people have comented that killing trash isn’t rewarding…. More mobs w/ less HP = more chances at loot and more of a reason to kill the mobs. Especially if they have a chance to drop shards / fragments (save the cores / lodestones for Copper / Silver mobs, and for the love of the six gods, put a significant chance to drop Lodestones on Champions!)

Honest truth is… if you look at the people who like chaining events in Orr…. people genuinely like mowing down trash…. it’s fun!

kKagari.6804:

Vastly different posts. Could’ve been percent, could’ve been hit points.

Because as other people have pointed out, much like how Diablo 2 gets it right; Killing stuff is fun. Hitting the same thing for 5 minutes with no chance of tactics required or difference in scenery is BORING.

Okay, I stand corrected, I left “times” word but it should be quite obvious that 10-20 more hp doesn’t sound realistically.

The thing is, you hit them for 5 minutes with no tactics because they’re too easy. Hitting 100 mobs will not be more fun. Unless you consider spamming AoE fun. Those groups of mobs someone mentioned (start of Arah3 for instance) are just like that. Spam AoE and then finish 2 silver mobs. How’s that different?

Adding normal trash will just devaluate blocks and hard cc.

Hard cc is even more useful on trash mobs than silvers and golds. Most of those have unshakable whereas a single Tremor (for example) face plants a line of trash for 2 seconds of free hits.

Yes… Yes.

15 trash mobs

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Vastly different posts. Could’ve been percent, could’ve been hit points.

Because as other people have pointed out, much like how Diablo 2 gets it right; Killing stuff is fun. Hitting the same thing for 5 minutes with no chance of tactics required or difference in scenery is BORING.

Okay, I stand corrected, I left “times” word but it should be quite obvious that 10-20 more hp doesn’t sound realistically.

The thing is, you hit them for 5 minutes with no tactics because they’re too easy. Hitting 100 mobs will not be more fun. Unless you consider spamming AoE fun. Those groups of mobs someone mentioned (start of Arah3 for instance) are just like that. Spam AoE and then finish 2 silver mobs. How’s that different?

Adding normal trash will just devaluate blocks and hard cc.

Blocks shouldn’t be the end-all way of being purposeful in dungeons. In actuality, block is a lot like blind (yes i know they arent the same, but the end effect is not completely different). The very fact that Guardians aren’t IMPERATIVE to have in a dungeon run also negates the ‘must have aegis’ argument. blocks are nice to have but their value isn’t paramount

One doesn’t actually need to consciously ‘AoE’ in GW2, its pretty much integrated into most attack already. More importantly it’d be less about about ‘spamming aoe’ than using it effectively and efficiently. Especially with how people use rotations, they are likely to use aoe skills on single targets anyways. AoE is not an issue.

Look at the Arah3 villager mobs right at the beginning. Spamming AoE isn’t always effective if its ill coordinated with the rest of your team. You can get overwhelmed easily and the silver risen mage will devastate you with aoes.

The combination of trashy trash mobs and silver mobs actually balances encounters very well. Trash mobs add chaos to the mix; they are a source of constant damage and distraction, which makes the silver mobs attacks less predictable and more dangerous. When silver mobs are easily singled out none of their attacks become difficult to see.

ow yes that would be wonderfull i want hordes of weaker mobs with much lower dmg to make us feel much more POWERFULL!!!! (maybe even add in a good reason to have dps specced aoe’rs and actually tank specced tanks, and support specced people:D instead of all having to be Tankish dps with tons of dodging -.- )

kKagari.6804:

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Vastly different posts. Could’ve been percent, could’ve been hit points.

Because as other people have pointed out, much like how Diablo 2 gets it right; Killing stuff is fun. Hitting the same thing for 5 minutes with no chance of tactics required or difference in scenery is BORING.

Okay, I stand corrected, I left “times” word but it should be quite obvious that 10-20 more hp doesn’t sound realistically.

The thing is, you hit them for 5 minutes with no tactics because they’re too easy. Hitting 100 mobs will not be more fun. Unless you consider spamming AoE fun. Those groups of mobs someone mentioned (start of Arah3 for instance) are just like that. Spam AoE and then finish 2 silver mobs. How’s that different?

Adding normal trash will just devaluate blocks and hard cc.

Blocks shouldn’t be the end-all way of being purposeful in dungeons. In actuality, block is a lot like blind (yes i know they arent the same, but the end effect is not completely different). The very fact that Guardians aren’t IMPERATIVE to have in a dungeon run also negates the ‘must have aegis’ argument. blocks are nice to have but their value isn’t paramount

One doesn’t actually need to consciously ‘AoE’ in GW2, its pretty much integrated into most attack already. More importantly it’d be less about about ‘spamming aoe’ than using it effectively and efficiently. Especially with how people use rotations, they are likely to use aoe skills on single targets anyways. AoE is not an issue.

Look at the Arah3 villager mobs right at the beginning. Spamming AoE isn’t always effective if its ill coordinated with the rest of your team. You can get overwhelmed easily and the silver risen mage will devastate you with aoes.

The combination of trashy trash mobs and silver mobs actually balances encounters very well. Trash mobs add chaos to the mix; they are a source of constant damage and distraction, which makes the silver mobs attacks less predictable and more dangerous. When silver mobs are easily singled out none of their attacks become difficult to see.

sooo well said
actually find the encounters of the mix of both, with 1-2 silver and tons of trash the most fun and the once where you actually feel like you got a role instead of every one kinda having the same role on groups of silver mobs :/

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Strifey.7215:

It’s cause they love adding silver mobs, instead of a bunch of normal mobs.

Non-bronze/silvers actually die really fast and feel like that, too bad they’re pretty few and far between.

I actually like the 1 silver mob + tons of trash groups way more then 3-4 silver mob groups. They should do more of those instead of all the stupid silver groups.

This. The starting mob group in Arah3 and the group after the alcohol boss in Arah1 are fun. It also elevates the status of silver mobs; the Arah ones COULD be fun since their attacks are quite varied and dangerous, but I can’t say the same about the other mobs in other dungeons.

And yeah – Fractals are sort of getting it right now, more paper thin mobs = more fun. More loot too!

Mr Hrouda even agrees trash mobs have too much HP.

Adding more trash mobs instead of rebalancing elites will only make cc skills even more worthless. Same thing will happen to dodging. Too many mobs on the screen and you can’t see what’s going on, so you will just aoe.

you dont seem to run dps spec where cc is even needed -.-
i normally run pure glasscannon ele (its really bad but its more me and i love glass cannons(even though they suck monkey balls in gw2, they are more like glass paper blowers), so when i am allowed i do it :P )
this means normal trash mobs actually do hit me hard and i need to avoid getting hit too much (they dont 1-2 shot me as all the elites BUT still noticible).
on elites(silver) the dodge is usually enough to keep me up forever if i dont misuse it and kite, on the tons of trashmobs i am FORCED! to use several cc spells just to keep them at bay while i can aoe kill them. cc is MUCH more needed vs. swarms of thin hp mobs then big hard hitting single mobs, due to the amount of attacks and the dodge function in game.

its a matter of balance you need trash mobs and elites in between. meaning trash gets cleared fast by good teamwork and you are left with the 1-2 elites which you need to now finish of..
its the same reason you don’t just run in a dungeon do 6-10 bosses then the endboss an your done… big scary monsters are annoying to fight and boring if you gotta fight them all the time, low hp trash is fun to destroy and having a real end challenge of a scary big kitten will make that last big one fun.

kKagari.6804:

Blocks shouldn’t be the end-all way of being purposeful in dungeons. In actuality, block is a lot like blind (yes i know they arent the same, but the end effect is not completely different). The very fact that Guardians aren’t IMPERATIVE to have in a dungeon run also negates the ‘must have aegis’ argument. blocks are nice to have but their value isn’t paramount

One doesn’t actually need to consciously ‘AoE’ in GW2, its pretty much integrated into most attack already. More importantly it’d be less about about ‘spamming aoe’ than using it effectively and efficiently. Especially with how people use rotations, they are likely to use aoe skills on single targets anyways. AoE is not an issue.

Look at the Arah3 villager mobs right at the beginning. Spamming AoE isn’t always effective if its ill coordinated with the rest of your team. You can get overwhelmed easily and the silver risen mage will devastate you with aoes.

The combination of trashy trash mobs and silver mobs actually balances encounters very well. Trash mobs add chaos to the mix; they are a source of constant damage and distraction, which makes the silver mobs attacks less predictable and more dangerous. When silver mobs are easily singled out none of their attacks become difficult to see.

You do Arah3 like that: pull them in one spot -> nuke all trash-> deal with 2 silver mobs.

Sarcasmic.6741:

Hard cc is even more useful on trash mobs than silvers and golds. Most of those have unshakable whereas a single Tremor (for example) face plants a line of trash for 2 seconds of free hits.

Silvers don’t have unshakable. And there aren’t many others AoE stuns. Most of them are single targetted.

Erebus.7568:

you dont seem to run dps spec where cc is even needed -.-
i normally run pure glasscannon ele (its really bad but its more me and i love glass cannons(even though they suck monkey balls in gw2, they are more like glass paper blowers), so when i am allowed i do it :P )
this means normal trash mobs actually do hit me hard and i need to avoid getting hit too much (they dont 1-2 shot me as all the elites BUT still noticible).
on elites(silver) the dodge is usually enough to keep me up forever if i dont misuse it and kite, on the tons of trashmobs i am FORCED! to use several cc spells just to keep them at bay while i can aoe kill them. cc is MUCH more needed vs. swarms of thin hp mobs then big hard hitting single mobs, due to the amount of attacks and the dodge function in game.

its a matter of balance you need trash mobs and elites in between. meaning trash gets cleared fast by good teamwork and you are left with the 1-2 elites which you need to now finish of..
its the same reason you don’t just run in a dungeon do 6-10 bosses then the endboss an your done… big scary monsters are annoying to fight and boring if you gotta fight them all the time, low hp trash is fun to destroy and having a real end challenge of a scary big kitten will make that last big one fun.

I play glass ele, thief and guardian. Trash mobs mean 0 issues whatsoever when you use 2 skills to kill 5 of them.

I’d like anet to make this game more challenging and imho adding more trash like those in fractals/open world will not make it. If you want that feeling of trash -> fun boss, it’s already in fractals. We don’t really need 3 exact systems. That’s why they added elites to dungeons in the first place. The current problem is that they don’t offer any decent rewards and (for most people) have too much hp.

One issue with silvers is that they are just filler-content. Most of the silver-fights are more or less same. And they just stand there and aren’t really interesting (more events please).
I think CoE has quite nice silver-encounters because there’s plenty of variation.

And yeah, if killing them is not worth of the reward people will skip no matter how interesting the fight would be.

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Blocks shouldn’t be the end-all way of being purposeful in dungeons. In actuality, block is a lot like blind (yes i know they arent the same, but the end effect is not completely different). The very fact that Guardians aren’t IMPERATIVE to have in a dungeon run also negates the ‘must have aegis’ argument. blocks are nice to have but their value isn’t paramount

One doesn’t actually need to consciously ‘AoE’ in GW2, its pretty much integrated into most attack already. More importantly it’d be less about about ‘spamming aoe’ than using it effectively and efficiently. Especially with how people use rotations, they are likely to use aoe skills on single targets anyways. AoE is not an issue.

Look at the Arah3 villager mobs right at the beginning. Spamming AoE isn’t always effective if its ill coordinated with the rest of your team. You can get overwhelmed easily and the silver risen mage will devastate you with aoes.

The combination of trashy trash mobs and silver mobs actually balances encounters very well. Trash mobs add chaos to the mix; they are a source of constant damage and distraction, which makes the silver mobs attacks less predictable and more dangerous. When silver mobs are easily singled out none of their attacks become difficult to see.

You do Arah3 like that: pull them in one spot -> nuke all trash-> deal with 2 silver mobs.

Sarcasmic.6741:

Hard cc is even more useful on trash mobs than silvers and golds. Most of those have unshakable whereas a single Tremor (for example) face plants a line of trash for 2 seconds of free hits.

Silvers don’t have unshakable. And there aren’t many others AoE stuns. Most of them are single targetted.

Erebus.7568:

you dont seem to run dps spec where cc is even needed -.-
i normally run pure glasscannon ele (its really bad but its more me and i love glass cannons(even though they suck monkey balls in gw2, they are more like glass paper blowers), so when i am allowed i do it :P )
this means normal trash mobs actually do hit me hard and i need to avoid getting hit too much (they dont 1-2 shot me as all the elites BUT still noticible).
on elites(silver) the dodge is usually enough to keep me up forever if i dont misuse it and kite, on the tons of trashmobs i am FORCED! to use several cc spells just to keep them at bay while i can aoe kill them. cc is MUCH more needed vs. swarms of thin hp mobs then big hard hitting single mobs, due to the amount of attacks and the dodge function in game.

its a matter of balance you need trash mobs and elites in between. meaning trash gets cleared fast by good teamwork and you are left with the 1-2 elites which you need to now finish of..
its the same reason you don’t just run in a dungeon do 6-10 bosses then the endboss an your done… big scary monsters are annoying to fight and boring if you gotta fight them all the time, low hp trash is fun to destroy and having a real end challenge of a scary big kitten will make that last big one fun.

I play glass ele, thief and guardian. Trash mobs mean 0 issues whatsoever when you use 2 skills to kill 5 of them.

I’d like anet to make this game more challenging and imho adding more trash like those in fractals/open world will not make it. If you want that feeling of trash -> fun boss, it’s already in fractals. We don’t really need 3 exact systems. That’s why they added elites to dungeons in the first place. The current problem is that they don’t offer any decent rewards and (for most people) have too much hp.

Open world isn’t even relevant in this discussion. Open world can be done with 1 or 100 people, and mobs respawn blah blah blah.

See the issue here is pacing. Just because fractals has better pacing doesn’t mean dungeons should be left with kitten pacing. There is just no logic in that argument. Yes, we do need exact same systems if one of the systems kittening sucks. and the fact that everyone skips it is testament to this fact.

kKagari.6804:

Open world isn’t even relevant in this discussion. Open world can be done with 1 or 100 people, and mobs respawn blah blah blah.

See the issue here is pacing. Just because fractals has better pacing doesn’t mean dungeons should be left with kitten pacing. There is just no logic in that argument. Yes, we do need exact same systems if one of the systems kittening sucks. and the fact that everyone skips it is testament to this fact.

Fractals were designed as a series of mini-dungeon. Of course they should be faster, you’re doing 3 or 4 in one run.

By your logic, if everyone exploits, should anet just add “i-win” button so you can get all shinies? Should all paths take approx. 10 minutes because everyones does CoF1?

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Open world isn’t even relevant in this discussion. Open world can be done with 1 or 100 people, and mobs respawn blah blah blah.

See the issue here is pacing. Just because fractals has better pacing doesn’t mean dungeons should be left with kitten pacing. There is just no logic in that argument. Yes, we do need exact same systems if one of the systems kittening sucks. and the fact that everyone skips it is testament to this fact.

Fractals were designed as a series of mini-dungeon. Of course they should be faster, you’re doing 3 or 4 in one run.

By your logic, if everyone exploits, should anet just add “i-win” button so you can get all shinies? Should all paths take approx. 10 minutes because everyones does CoF1?

first of i am calling you out on the bs: i dont believe that you dont get challange fighting 3+ silver mobs(or lupi for that matter since he literally 1 shot you in full dps spec) in arah on a DPS! spec ele, i simply do not believe that and you would have to provide the vid to prove this (unless you got a sick group which carry you but then it doesnt matter WHICH build you go becouse your group with easily 4 man it) in the same manner as i do not believe you throw down 2 skills and kill all the “normal trash” without any cc skill to slow them down (not on a ele thats for sure).

when that is said challenge in dungeons for those that does it WITHOUT EXPLOITING AND CHEATING! is planty high, it is actually at the place where only specific tanky dps build and people that have ran it like crazy got any chance in hell of doing it without dying.
even people that are sickly good in a crazy group dies quite a bit over ONE dungeon arah run.
so complaining its not challenging is bullkitten and you should just stop bugging/exploiting everything and actually do the bosses and trash mob as they where intended, instead of “rushing/running” pass all trashmobs and bugging/exploiting all bosses.

fractals move in the right direction yes but fractals are more of a riddle thing, which then turns into an increasing survival mode, where it’s a simple test of “do you have the sustain to keep alive?”, the best parties for fractal 80 is simply a TON!! of healing/tank on every person in there, becouse its a simple survival game, it got nothing to do with diversity and it provides no meaningfull mix of classes or playstyles, its a one trick play which is sad.

dungeons should provide a fast paced fun and enjoyable experience which caters to many different playstyles and which provide challanging that is best cleared with a nice mixture of dps/support/tank specced builds where people got different roles and different reasons why its best that you got diversity in your setup, which in return can result in a much more diverse type of encounter and ways to go about winning them.
(as it is now in all dungeon its tanky dps build win all, and in fractal, tanky healers win all.. there is no room for actual pure tanks, or actual pure supports or actual pure dps builds, it is simply just dragging down the team becouse the team synergy in dungeons are none existing and the setup is better of having every one in full solo spec then in specs which theoretically should have a good synergy with their parties. and that is a problem in gw2 right now)

Erebus.7568:

first of i am calling you out on the bs: i dont believe that you dont get challange fighting 3+ silver mobs(or lupi for that matter since he literally 1 shot you in full dps spec) in arah on a DPS! spec ele, i simply do not believe that and you would have to provide the vid to prove this (unless you got a sick group which carry you but then it doesnt matter WHICH build you go becouse your group with easily 4 man it) in the same manner as i do not believe you throw down 2 skills and kill all the “normal trash” without any cc skill to slow them down (not on a ele thats for sure).

Yes, I’m being carried all the time. I’m really bad. That’s why I’m pugging most of the time. To get carried.

Burning retreat plus fire grab does the job most of the time. Or Phoenix plus ring of fire. I don’t play bunker ele so I deal some decent damage. Lupi doesn’t 1 shot me because I don’t use staff like 99% of eles.

when that is said challenge in dungeons for those that does it WITHOUT EXPLOITING AND CHEATING! is planty high, it is actually at the place where only specific tanky dps build and people that have ran it like crazy got any chance in hell of doing it without dying.
even people that are sickly good in a crazy group dies quite a bit over ONE dungeon arah run.
so complaining its not challenging is bullkitten and you should just stop bugging/exploiting everything and actually do the bosses and trash mob as they where intended, instead of “rushing/running” pass all trashmobs and bugging/exploiting all bosses.

Why do you assume I exploit/bug all the bosses? I hate cheese (some would call them smart) tactics. Last time I did arah with people I know + 2 pick ups, we’ve said that dead = kick. No one died. And I know that 4 people (including me) were glasses. So it’s quite possible to do that. And we did not use any exploit/cheese tactics etc. Unless you consider meleeing every boss an exploit.

fractals move in the right direction yes but fractals are more of a riddle thing, which then turns into an increasing survival mode, where it’s a simple test of “do you have the sustain to keep alive?”, the best parties for fractal 80 is simply a TON!! of healing/tank on every person in there, becouse its a simple survival game, it got nothing to do with diversity and it provides no meaningfull mix of classes or playstyles, its a one trick play which is sad.

That’s correct. Fractals on high level are suitable for bunkers.

dungeons should provide a fast paced fun and enjoyable experience which caters to many different playstyles and which provide challanging that is best cleared with a nice mixture of dps/support/tank specced builds where people got different roles and different reasons why its best that you got diversity in your setup, which in return can result in a much more diverse type of encounter and ways to go about winning them.
(as it is now in all dungeon its tanky dps build win all, and in fractal, tanky healers win all.. there is no room for actual pure tanks, or actual pure supports or actual pure dps builds, it is simply just dragging down the team becouse the team synergy in dungeons are none existing and the setup is better of having every one in full solo spec then in specs which theoretically should have a good synergy with their parties. and that is a problem in gw2 right now)

I guess some people would want to have those long difficult dungeons instead of raids. Right now, only Arah (except p3 and maybe p2) might be good replacement for them. And tanky dps builds are pretty bad. What you want is pure dps.

haviz.1340:

I guess some people would want to have those long difficult dungeons instead of raids. Right now, only Arah (except p3 and maybe p2) might be good replacement for them. And tanky dps builds are pretty bad. What you want is pure dps.

-.- your so full of it …..

p2,p3 is around just as hard as p1, p4, the only diff is bosses(which is only a real diff at p4 due to dwayna being a kitten if people doesnt know how and even here it can be an issue due to spark ai.) and how easy you can run pass mobs….. you would know this if you actually cleared the mobs instead of running and didnt bug out the bosses at all -.-
(people are alot worse at p4 becouse it’s hard to bug/run and therefore they are not used to do it since people are becomming so dependent on bugging/exploiting everything they are too kitten to do it normally.)

using D/D, S/D, staff etc. does absolutely no difference on your hp buffer in full glass cannon build and you can get one shotted by quite a few things especially lupi on double shots.

your example combo’s won’t hit anywhere near all the normal trash mob which I explained so those 2 skills to kill them all, no way especially not with an DD SD setup (staff you can maybe do it with a little luck and AWESOME dodging, but 2 skills is still pushing it even in full berserk gear and maxed out dmg traits.).

for groups that knows what they are doing and are really good, without running or exploiting anything, every dungeon will take around 30-60min in general with arah taking a bit longer properly 15-20min more.

the reason to do RAIDS! and why people like them have nothing to do with the length, but the amount of people you can bring, the fact you can do these as a “guild” instead of as a group.
in most games its a prestige guild thing or guild fun events, while dungeons limits you to a much smaller amount of people and are therefore badly suited for guilds to play together and connect…

ps: even the VERY best people at running arah is exploiting the place to make it easier, lupi is constantly getting bug abused to avoid him from spawning the grubs, running pass 90% of all mobs becouse they can and it saves time, boss mechanics being misused to the max to make them easy mode instead of actually fighting them in a way where they actually utilise their skillsets and effects…
these people could properly do it without any of these but ofc they dont since its a general acceptence not to. but even these people will find challenge when having to do them correctly.

i have seen people that should be able to solo arah get rolf when they actually had to clear and do the instance without bugging it out and running everything… it goes to show how easy all this exploiting makes it and it gives a false feedback of the dungeons being too easy…
Even something as TA which you can do easily in 30min, would be somewhat a challenging if you actually killed all the mobs on your way and had to fight them at the flowers instead of just running pass everything.

Some dungeons need tweaking, but in general i do not find any of them to be too easy/without any challenge when doing them correctly. The earlier dungeons takes less to complete with success but even here you need to be awake if you are fighting everything as you were supposed to and not dragging stuff to easy area to kill them etc.
Even ac’s first boss would be ok if it just closed the sides to you couldn’t hide around the pillars but had to fight him WITH his 2 adds in the little area where he stands.

you go on to saying tanky dps is bad… if you cannot exploit anything you are highly likely to wipe on a lot of stuff if you go glass cannon and have to clear all, especially on lupi again since he will fully kill people fast on an unlucky step and running back is exploiting the lack of a closed door mechanic (you are obviously not supposed to kill bosses by lemming them).

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Open world isn’t even relevant in this discussion. Open world can be done with 1 or 100 people, and mobs respawn blah blah blah.

See the issue here is pacing. Just because fractals has better pacing doesn’t mean dungeons should be left with kitten pacing. There is just no logic in that argument. Yes, we do need exact same systems if one of the systems kittening sucks. and the fact that everyone skips it is testament to this fact.

Fractals were designed as a series of mini-dungeon. Of course they should be faster, you’re doing 3 or 4 in one run.

By your logic, if everyone exploits, should anet just add “i-win” button so you can get all shinies? Should all paths take approx. 10 minutes because everyones does CoF1?

Ok, you’re either just trolling now or a master of misinterpreting. Good pacing =! short dungeons. If I’m going to spend the next 2 hrs of my life running a dungeon I want lots of memorable encounters, not 4 30 minute ones. I want set pieces, not another encounter with Risen Mage #500. Silver mobs only exist to lengthen the encounter, not make more difficult. This is especially true when your team outnumbers the enemy. They can’t add more silver mobs because the encounter will drag on forever so in actuality, every silver mob gets their special own mini boss effect. You know that part in some of the TA paths where a bunch of nightmare puppies charge at you? Fun stuff. Sure, they could have just replaced it all with 4 silver nightmare hounds.

haviz.1340:

Sarcasmic.6741:

Hard cc is even more useful on trash mobs than silvers and golds. Most of those have unshakable whereas a single Tremor (for example) face plants a line of trash for 2 seconds of free hits.

Silvers don’t have unshakable. And there aren’t many others AoE stuns. Most of them are single targetted.

We must not play the same sides of the game. Too many unshakable/defiant non-boss mobs in my version, with far more AoE cc skills than in yours.

Trash is generally harder than the bosses

Arah in particular
Risen Illusionist Chaos Storm.
Champion Spider with it’s very strong aoe barrage

honourable mention to the Champion Destroyer crab in CoE 3 and his Icebrood Wolf buddy.

Erebus.7568:

-.- your so full of it …..

p2,p3 is around just as hard as p1, p4, the only diff is bosses(which is only a real diff at p4 due to dwayna being a kitten if people doesnt know how and even here it can be an issue due to spark ai.) and how easy you can run pass mobs….. you would know this if you actually cleared the mobs instead of running and didnt bug out the bosses at all -.-
(people are alot worse at p4 becouse it’s hard to bug/run and therefore they are not used to do it since people are becomming so dependent on bugging/exploiting everything they are too kitten to do it normally.)

You really like to assume a lot of thing. First of all, I cleared all paths on my first try. Secondly, I’ve told you already, I do not use cheap tactics to kill bosses. I’m against cheese tactics. I facepalm everytime I see people jumping on ledges or using safespots. It’s slower and boring.

using D/D, S/D, staff etc. does absolutely no difference on your hp buffer in full glass cannon build and you can get one shotted by quite a few things especially lupi on double shots.

Okay, so different sets don’t have different defensive skills. And your only defense is hp buffer.

your example combo’s won’t hit anywhere near all the normal trash mob which I explained so those 2 skills to kill them all, no way especially not with an DD SD setup (staff you can maybe do it with a little luck and AWESOME dodging, but 2 skills is still pushing it even in full berserk gear and maxed out dmg traits.).

Okay, they are left maybe with 10-20% of hp. Happy? Autoattacks/party members will finish them

for groups that knows what they are doing and are really good, without running or exploiting anything, every dungeon will take around 30-60min in general with arah taking a bit longer properly 15-20min more.

Prime example being CoF1. And if you want to kill everythig in arah you should add 2 hours not 15-20 minutes.

the reason to do RAIDS! and why people like them have nothing to do with the length, but the amount of people you can bring, the fact you can do these as a “guild” instead of as a group.
in most games its a prestige guild thing or guild fun events, while dungeons limits you to a much smaller amount of people and are therefore badly suited for guilds to play together and connect…

I’ve honesly never played any MMO (except gw1 which wasn’t one) so I can’t tell anything. I just said what devs said about dungeons (hardcore content, same as raids)

ps: even the VERY best people at running arah is exploiting the place to make it easier, lupi is constantly getting bug abused to avoid him from spawning the grubs, running pass 90% of all mobs becouse they can and it saves time, boss mechanics being misused to the max to make them easy mode instead of actually fighting them in a way where they actually utilise their skillsets and effects…
these people could properly do it without any of these but ofc they dont since its a general acceptence not to. but even these people will find challenge when having to do them correctly.

What bug? Never heard about glitching him to not spawn grubs. Unless you mean those vidoes of a warrior soloing him and never spawning a single grub. EXPLOITER, I’m so gonna report his kitten

I really would like to see those “VERY best people” you’re talking about.

Erebus.7568:

i have seen people that should be able to solo arah get rolf when they actually had to clear and do the instance without bugging it out and running everything… it goes to show how easy all this exploiting makes it and it gives a false feedback of the dungeons being too easy…
Even something as TA which you can do easily in 30min, would be somewhat a challenging if you actually killed all the mobs on your way and had to fight them at the flowers instead of just running pass everything.

In old days, when world was young and gw2 just came out, people weren’t skipping that much. I did all paths of every dungeon without skipping at least once. Shocking, I know.

Some dungeons need tweaking, but in general i do not find any of them to be too easy/without any challenge when doing them correctly. The earlier dungeons takes less to complete with success but even here you need to be awake if you are fighting everything as you were supposed to and not dragging stuff to easy area to kill them etc.
Even ac’s first boss would be ok if it just closed the sides to you couldn’t hide around the pillars but had to fight him WITH his 2 adds in the little area where he stands.

When I was still doing AC, I was actually doing that. Not pulling him.

you go on to saying tanky dps is bad… if you cannot exploit anything you are highly likely to wipe on a lot of stuff if you go glass cannon and have to clear all, especially on lupi again since he will fully kill people fast on an unlucky step and running back is exploiting the lack of a closed door mechanic (you are obviously not supposed to kill bosses by lemming them).

Okay mate, you’ve got me here. I’m a glass cannon who dies every 10 seconds at lupi. Please, stop those assumptions.

I’m bad exploiter – check my post history in exploit themed threads.

Sarcasmic.6741:

We must not play the same sides of the game. Too many unshakable/defiant non-boss mobs in my version, with far more AoE cc skills than in yours.

Do you consider a champ non-boss? Because if not I have no idea how to respond to it.

Lorana.2468:

Trash is generally harder than the bosses

Arah in particular
Risen Illusionist Chaos Storm.
Champion Spider with it’s very strong aoe barrage

honourable mention to the Champion Destroyer crab in CoE 3 and his Icebrood Wolf buddy.

Problem with icebrood wolf champ is that he deals damage twice (check combat log). It could be just a bug.

haviz.1340:

kKagari.6804:

Ok, you’re either just trolling now or a master of misinterpreting. Good pacing =! short dungeons. If I’m going to spend the next 2 hrs of my life running a dungeon I want lots of memorable encounters, not 4 30 minute ones. I want set pieces, not another encounter with Risen Mage #500. Silver mobs only exist to lengthen the encounter, not make more difficult. This is especially true when your team outnumbers the enemy. They can’t add more silver mobs because the encounter will drag on forever so in actuality, every silver mob gets their special own mini boss effect. You know that part in some of the TA paths where a bunch of nightmare puppies charge at you? Fun stuff. Sure, they could have just replaced it all with 4 silver nightmare hounds.

Okay, so 100+ dredges is okay for you. People don’t skip in fractals at all because they contain so many memorable encounters.

How is this at all a response to what I was saying? In fact I have no idea what you’re even talking about anymore. This whole topic has people agreeing that more killing and rewards is fun yet you seem to be saying completely different stuff every time.

kKagari.6804:

How is this at all a response to what I was saying? In fact I have no idea what you’re even talking about anymore. This whole topic has people agreeing that more killing and rewards is fun yet you seem to be saying completely different stuff every time.

That post is irrelevent now. What I’ve been saying is that you have conflicting views about what’s fun in dungeons, that’s what I’m getting here. You want memorable encounters and give fractals as a good example. I’m saying that this fractals isn’t memorable at all (or is but in bad way). I know there is a problem with skipping mobs and anet needs to address it. I’m just not agreeing that making dungeons similiar to fractals is a good idea.

If I misunderstood or misinterpretted you, consider my replies non existent and ignore them.

haviz.1340:

Erebus.7568:

i have seen people that should be able to solo arah get rolf when they actually had to clear and do the instance without bugging it out and running everything… it goes to show how easy all this exploiting makes it and it gives a false feedback of the dungeons being too easy…
Even something as TA which you can do easily in 30min, would be somewhat a challenging if you actually killed all the mobs on your way and had to fight them at the flowers instead of just running pass everything.

In old days, when world was young and gw2 just came out, people weren’t skipping that much. I did all paths of every dungeon without skipping at least once. Shocking, I know.

Some dungeons need tweaking, but in general i do not find any of them to be too easy/without any challenge when doing them correctly. The earlier dungeons takes less to complete with success but even here you need to be awake if you are fighting everything as you were supposed to and not dragging stuff to easy area to kill them etc.
Even ac’s first boss would be ok if it just closed the sides to you couldn’t hide around the pillars but had to fight him WITH his 2 adds in the little area where he stands.

When I was still doing AC, I was actually doing that. Not pulling him.

you go on to saying tanky dps is bad… if you cannot exploit anything you are highly likely to wipe on a lot of stuff if you go glass cannon and have to clear all, especially on lupi again since he will fully kill people fast on an unlucky step and running back is exploiting the lack of a closed door mechanic (you are obviously not supposed to kill bosses by lemming them).

Okay mate, you’ve got me here. I’m a glass cannon who dies every 10 seconds at lupi. Please, stop those assumptions.

I’m bad exploiter – check my post history in exploit themed threads.

i don’t believe you at all.
vids or it didnt happend… that simple… (could write alot about why it is extremely unlikely etc etc etc. but whats the point, if you keep saying your superman and i keep disbelieving you we will never get to an agreement. so FRAPS or it didnt happend…. would love to see you running with normal pug groups in full dps spec (especially in DD spec) ele and easy mode arah p4. without exploiting, running pass everything.. i don’t believe you can do that.)

now back to subject.
i absolutely think a bounch of trashmobs which is just fun innialation and a few hard mobs in between and some very few hard bosses to end the fights with

challenge != HARD mobs/mobs combo.

i find the assumption that since people can actually do all runs now and since in good groups you can do them without wiping (or mostly without wiping) they are not challenging, i think there is a fine line between fun challenge, and frustration challenge.
the last is not good and is what i feel whenever i am in a bad group in arah -.-

the fun challenge is very few situations and far apart in gw2 becouse of how they build the encounters up with very few encounters, very few mobs but VERY high hp, dmg, burst.
add to this the lack of synergy between tank/dps/support (due to them wanting every class to be able to do anything they like and be effective) you end up with quite “annoying” imbalanced role setups where everyone will end up in the same spec becouse its just the most effective instead of each person having a role type or a specific function which also suits their playstyle (you can but you are wildly worse for the party when doing so, which in return makes you feel forced to go into a role (most effective for whatever instance you do) instead of playing the role you enjoy the most and just teaming up with people that enjoy’s the other needed roles the most.)

Tis just a flesh wound!

I agree that the best designed trash encounters are those with one or two “hard” mobs with a bunch of easy trash thrown in. The large room in SE story with all of the dredge is a fun encounter. The weak dredge aren’t really a threat, but you still have to deal with them or their collective damage will overwhelm you. Meanwhile, you have a few silver mobs beating on you too.

Compare that to Arah with ANY encounter dealing with risen illusionists, since they usually come in pairs and have a mage and hunter (spamming group stability and protection) with them. Those fights are more difficult, but they are far more frustrating just because it takes so kitten long to finish. All you get out of them is a few porus bones and a piece of armor to repair.

Haviz:
proof your right and its not a challenge or your argument got no marits.

…………………………

as for the challenge of trash mobs.
what you are asking is for each encounter to be hard by simply stacking harder mobs on top of each other without trash.
by this logic one of the best dungeons you could run is a dungeon with 10 lupies one after another each in their own room that closes off when you enter and if you fail any of them you will need to redo ALL of them.
there will ofcouse not be any ability to exploit or bug abuse these 10 lupi’s.

now that would in your eyes be awesome design becouse it would be very hard to do all 10 in a row without failing, and actually quite impossible to do at all with pugs.
but in your eyes the challenge of this is good becouse its fun to only fight VERY hard encounters and no “easy” encounter.

the whole issue with your argument is that you want to completely remove “easy” encounters which is a vital part of the dungeons and actually the main reason hard encounters feel hard.
the arah bosses dont feel hard (only lupi) since once you can actually really run arah the trash mobs are soo hard when you get 4-5 of them that any boss there is post no threat to you since the normal mobs are soo hard that once you get to the boss its easier then the actual trash mobs.
this makes for a very anti climatic feel when meeting bosses.

secondly you dont want alot of mobs, you want few HARD once, well 100 norm mobs comming from all sides in waves of 20 with only enough space between them for your aoe’s to be less effective and with a ton of those knockdown, pull, knockback mobs between them will pose as much if not more of a challenge to the group then 4-5 silver once would, and if they kept respawning every time you wiped so you where forced to complete them in 1 try it would be crazy hard as well (and need MUCH more teamwork then fighting 4-5 silvers)

its not an issue of the bosses being too easy, or too small.
the issue is that the normal trashmobs we meet are WAY! too hard and way too few for that boss to feel like a SINGLE digit threat that you should really fear.
when you meet a boss he needs to do two things:

1: need to feel intimidating
this is done by him being +- alone or with very few elite guards. it makes him seem special, if you run into a big room and all there is in a room is a little girl standing in the middle, you get intimidated due to what you espect her to be since she deserves such a big room all by herself.

2: need to feel EPICLY strong.
it needs to feel like its a BOSS like its kittening evil and hard.

now the issue with 1, is that if you ALWAYS only meet 1 mob at a time and they simply are scaled to the difficulty needed for one mob to be against a full group, meeting one mob will not surprice you and you properly only notice its a boss becouse of the colour around its picture.
while if you are used to fighting 20-50-100 mobs at a time and suddenly run into a room with only 1 mob you will automatically stop and think “wait.. something is wrong here, this is no ordinary mob”, it wouldnt even need a name or a boss tag, you would know instantly that THIS is a boss, just by the fact its standing alone or with very few gaurds, like a 1/20 of what you normally see together and that it got a space that tells you there should be alot more.

the issue with number 2 is that if the mobs are scaled to be soo hard individual the boss itelf cannot be very much harder becouse then either the encounters are WAY too easy through the dungeon and either get boring or the boss is completely impossible for your group to do.
while if you got tons of trash mobs like 20-50-100 trash mobs at a time that boss can suddenly be 20-50-100 TIMES!! as strong as the normal trash mobs, making it feel CRAZILY strong compared to the normal mobs while still not feeling too hard for the party to win against and thereby give an epic feel of victory when you kill the beast.

becouse of these reasons i think that a high amount of weak mobs is withour doubt the right way to go, with a few semi strong mobs which acts as “pack leaders” now and then.