Guild Wars 2

TurtleDragon.3108:

Nemesis.8593:

Mirsa.1628:

I never understood why people want to spend more time in a dungeon for the same reward.

The reward is usually as meaningful as the struggle/journey to obtain that reward… Ever heard the saying “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory” ?

If you put it like that… why would you even want to spend any time in a dungeon, just have a starting vendor with all best gear in the game…

Well… GW1 was like that. Everyone was equal stat-wise and only grinded for cooler looking gear.

Also, no one really cares about the struggle/journey after the first few times you do it. It then just becomes farm to grind for the next legendary, cash shop item or piece of ascended gear.

Well of course… after you have “consumed” that content, the experience becomes less attractive and you want “the next challenge”. Usually new content is pushed out in the form of an expansion to satisfy people’s thirst for a challenge…

Expansion!? Yes we need one of those, not immediately but soon, like by the end of the year or early next year. LW is not an expansion by any means, nor can it take the place of one.

Nemesis.8593:

TurtleDragon.3108:

Nemesis.8593:

Mirsa.1628:

I never understood why people want to spend more time in a dungeon for the same reward.

The reward is usually as meaningful as the struggle/journey to obtain that reward… Ever heard the saying “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory” ?

If you put it like that… why would you even want to spend any time in a dungeon, just have a starting vendor with all best gear in the game…

Well… GW1 was like that. Everyone was equal stat-wise and only grinded for cooler looking gear.

Also, no one really cares about the struggle/journey after the first few times you do it. It then just becomes farm to grind for the next legendary, cash shop item or piece of ascended gear.

Well of course… after you have “consumed” that content, the experience becomes less attractive and you want “the next challenge”. Usually new content is pushed out in the form of an expansion to satisfy people’s thirst for a challenge…

I find the way you say it rude, consumed? thirst? Fun is subjective. I didn’t know i’d be dictated what’s fun for me when I bought this game.
Neither did I know publishing new content to keep an audience was a sin.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Nemesis.8593:

The reward is usually as meaningful as the struggle/journey to obtain that reward… Ever heard the saying “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory” ?

If you put it like that… why would you even want to spend any time in a dungeon, just have a starting vendor with all best gear in the game…

But to swing to the other end of the spectrum as illogically as you’ve swung your way: why not do all dungeons in white gear with 0 traits spent and dodge unbound? Your struggle would be most epic thus, your “victory” would be most sweet.

I noticed there was no rebuttal to this. If you guys want to make the dungeon longer and more difficult because it’s more epic for you, then actually do it. Make your own lfg and do it. Stop telling everyone else they need to do it your way.

Seriously, post a video of how awesome it is to kill everything in all Arah paths.

Do you guys also get mad at the champ farm when they skip mobs to get to the champ for the end reward? Or the people doing map completion who skip mobs to unlock a wp? Or the world event farmers who skip mobs as they run to Jormag? Go to general discussion and tell them how to play their game that doesn’t affect you, see how it goes. Although their escapades might affect you some, unlike what people are doing in their own instances…

Personally i like skipping. it requires skill.
Did the living story awile back where you had to get to the top of the tree and kill the lizard boss. The boss was a joke to solo BUT the best part was skipping the lover level mobs to get to the top.

haviz.1340:

Zaxares.5419:

While I do not like the dominance of the Berzerker meta (I am an ardent supporter of the “play how you want” ideal), I also acknowledge that it is extremely effective and the natural result of the rules that ANet created. I’d prefer to see ANet make other builds more attractive rather than just outright nerfing of Zerkers, because there ARE players who enjoy being in healer/supporter/shutdown roles as opposed to straight DPS. ANet wanted to break the trinity so players didn’t have to spend hours begging for a tank/healer (I remember the “LFG 2 Monks to GOOOO!!!” days from GW1 all too well, before Heroes were introduced), but unfortunately the design made it so that characters who were geared towards a heal/support/shutdown role were completely unnecessary or inferior to a pure damage spike team.

Why those people are trying to play dedicated healers in a game that was advertised with their removal?

Probably misinterpretation. I imagine many players read that as:

“You don’t need a dedicated tank/healer to beat our dungeons if each player runs a balanced build, but a traditional tank/heal/DPS party will also work if that’s what you like to play.”

They likely didn’t expect it to become “You don’t need a dedicated tank/healer, because DPS is all you need.”

It’s a bit like if in PvP, Spike teams became the undisputed #1 meta build. Since other teams have no chance to compete with Spike teams, everybody just runs Spike builds. Or if in WvW, the balance is geared so much towards offense that it becomes pointless to try and defend anything, so the game just turns into a revolving door of Keeps and Towers getting capped and recapped less than 5 mins later. The entire game environment becomes stale and boring as a result.

Also, did anyone else laugh at how hyperbolic the thread title is?

“For the sake of God…”

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Nemesis.8593:

The reward is usually as meaningful as the struggle/journey to obtain that reward… Ever heard the saying “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory” ?

If you put it like that… why would you even want to spend any time in a dungeon, just have a starting vendor with all best gear in the game…

But to swing to the other end of the spectrum as illogically as you’ve swung your way: why not do all dungeons in white gear with 0 traits spent and dodge unbound? Your struggle would be most epic thus, your “victory” would be most sweet.

Hehe funny, but I don’t think you got what we was saying.

The value of anything is partially defined by its cost…in essence, how difficult it is to obtain. For example, truffles are valuable, they are difficult to obtain…corn is not valuable and is easy to obtain.

The same principle applies to GW2. If a dungeon reward is easily obtainable, the value of it will go down. It doesn’t matter if you put yourself personally through hell to get the reward…if everyone else can get it easily, it will still be worth crap.

It’s kind of like, if you won first place in an Olympic event and your prize was a $20 Starbucks gift card. It doesn’t matter that you “won” the gift card by completing an incredibly difficult olympic event, it’s still only worth $20.

My point was that his example (an item dispenser in lieu of a dungeon run) is as illogical as making a task unreasonably difficult on yourself.
———————————
I do find it interesting that you’re a strong proponent of the experience of the dungeon and yet have come with this argument with a monetary/extrinsic basis. If anything, the saying Nemesis used, “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory,” is entirely intrinsic. It means that I will gain that much more satisfaction even as more obstacles come my way because I will have overcome them.

If you were truly only concerned with the experience of doing a dungeon, the argument of monetary function shouldn’t come into it.

Ah but it makes complete sense. Here is how I see it…

The player community at large will always follow the path of least resistance to their desired reward. If you want proof of this, then just look at any MMORPG ever.

As such, the experience and gameplay of the game is defined by this path of least resistance. If this path is boring as hell, then so is the gameplay. If this path is really fun, then so is the gameplay. And if you do not like the path of least resistance, you are kind of forced into because:

A. Other players will pressure you into it.

B. If you don’t do it, you will be behind other players in progression and feel cheated.

So I think that it’s VERY important for this path of least resistance to actually be a very fun experience. Because it defines how the game is played.

Which is why I don’t like that stacking is the path of least resistance. It’s just not fun and I don’t like the game to be defined by it.

laharl.8435:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Nemesis.8593:

The reward is usually as meaningful as the struggle/journey to obtain that reward… Ever heard the saying “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory” ?

If you put it like that… why would you even want to spend any time in a dungeon, just have a starting vendor with all best gear in the game…

But to swing to the other end of the spectrum as illogically as you’ve swung your way: why not do all dungeons in white gear with 0 traits spent and dodge unbound? Your struggle would be most epic thus, your “victory” would be most sweet.

I noticed there was no rebuttal to this. If you guys want to make the dungeon longer and more difficult because it’s more epic for you, then actually do it. Make your own lfg and do it. Stop telling everyone else they need to do it your way.

Seriously, post a video of how awesome it is to kill everything in all Arah paths.

Do you guys also get mad at the champ farm when they skip mobs to get to the champ for the end reward? Or the people doing map completion who skip mobs to unlock a wp? Or the world event farmers who skip mobs as they run to Jormag? Go to general discussion and tell them how to play their game that doesn’t affect you, see how it goes. Although their escapades might affect you some, unlike what people are doing in their own instances…

Look, we proponents of fun and involving PvE want rewards too. We just to have fun getting them. We do not want to intentionally cripple ourselves.

It’s kind of like, if you are looking at your house right in front of you, 500 feet away…but instead of walking straight to it you decide to walk 2 miles around the neighborhood the long way instead.

This isn’t really something I want to do. I want the rewards in a reasonably timed manner and I also want to have fun doing it.

Telling people to form an “intentionally handicapped” group isn’t really viable. For one, it would take forever to find people to join it. And for two…we still want the rewards efficiently, we just want that process to be fun.

Creslin.1758:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Nemesis.8593:

The reward is usually as meaningful as the struggle/journey to obtain that reward… Ever heard the saying “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory” ?

If you put it like that… why would you even want to spend any time in a dungeon, just have a starting vendor with all best gear in the game…

But to swing to the other end of the spectrum as illogically as you’ve swung your way: why not do all dungeons in white gear with 0 traits spent and dodge unbound? Your struggle would be most epic thus, your “victory” would be most sweet.

Hehe funny, but I don’t think you got what we was saying.

The value of anything is partially defined by its cost…in essence, how difficult it is to obtain. For example, truffles are valuable, they are difficult to obtain…corn is not valuable and is easy to obtain.

The same principle applies to GW2. If a dungeon reward is easily obtainable, the value of it will go down. It doesn’t matter if you put yourself personally through hell to get the reward…if everyone else can get it easily, it will still be worth crap.

It’s kind of like, if you won first place in an Olympic event and your prize was a $20 Starbucks gift card. It doesn’t matter that you “won” the gift card by completing an incredibly difficult olympic event, it’s still only worth $20.

My point was that his example (an item dispenser in lieu of a dungeon run) is as illogical as making a task unreasonably difficult on yourself.
———————————
I do find it interesting that you’re a strong proponent of the experience of the dungeon and yet have come with this argument with a monetary/extrinsic basis. If anything, the saying Nemesis used, “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory,” is entirely intrinsic. It means that I will gain that much more satisfaction even as more obstacles come my way because I will have overcome them.

If you were truly only concerned with the experience of doing a dungeon, the argument of monetary function shouldn’t come into it.

Ah but it makes complete sense. Here is how I see it…

The player community at large will always follow the path of least resistance to their desired reward. If you want proof of this, then just look at any MMORPG ever.

As such, the experience and gameplay of the game is defined by this path of least resistance. If this path is boring as hell, then so is the gameplay. If this path is really fun, then so is the gameplay. And if you do not like the path of least resistance, you are kind of forced into because:

A. Other players will pressure you into it.

B. If you don’t do it, you will be behind other players in progression and feel cheated.

So I think that it’s VERY important for this path of least resistance to actually be a very fun experience. Because it defines how the game is played.

Which is why I don’t like that stacking is the path of least resistance. It’s just not fun and I don’t like the game to be defined by it.

Exactly my point…

Nemesis.8593:

Creslin.1758:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Nemesis.8593:

The reward is usually as meaningful as the struggle/journey to obtain that reward… Ever heard the saying “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory” ?

If you put it like that… why would you even want to spend any time in a dungeon, just have a starting vendor with all best gear in the game…

But to swing to the other end of the spectrum as illogically as you’ve swung your way: why not do all dungeons in white gear with 0 traits spent and dodge unbound? Your struggle would be most epic thus, your “victory” would be most sweet.

Hehe funny, but I don’t think you got what we was saying.

The value of anything is partially defined by its cost…in essence, how difficult it is to obtain. For example, truffles are valuable, they are difficult to obtain…corn is not valuable and is easy to obtain.

The same principle applies to GW2. If a dungeon reward is easily obtainable, the value of it will go down. It doesn’t matter if you put yourself personally through hell to get the reward…if everyone else can get it easily, it will still be worth crap.

It’s kind of like, if you won first place in an Olympic event and your prize was a $20 Starbucks gift card. It doesn’t matter that you “won” the gift card by completing an incredibly difficult olympic event, it’s still only worth $20.

My point was that his example (an item dispenser in lieu of a dungeon run) is as illogical as making a task unreasonably difficult on yourself.
———————————
I do find it interesting that you’re a strong proponent of the experience of the dungeon and yet have come with this argument with a monetary/extrinsic basis. If anything, the saying Nemesis used, “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory,” is entirely intrinsic. It means that I will gain that much more satisfaction even as more obstacles come my way because I will have overcome them.

If you were truly only concerned with the experience of doing a dungeon, the argument of monetary function shouldn’t come into it.

Ah but it makes complete sense. Here is how I see it…

The player community at large will always follow the path of least resistance to their desired reward. If you want proof of this, then just look at any MMORPG ever.

As such, the experience and gameplay of the game is defined by this path of least resistance. If this path is boring as hell, then so is the gameplay. If this path is really fun, then so is the gameplay. And if you do not like the path of least resistance, you are kind of forced into because:

A. Other players will pressure you into it.

B. If you don’t do it, you will be behind other players in progression and feel cheated.

So I think that it’s VERY important for this path of least resistance to actually be a very fun experience. Because it defines how the game is played.

Which is why I don’t like that stacking is the path of least resistance. It’s just not fun and I don’t like the game to be defined by it.

Exactly my point…

You two should form a party then you’ll only need 3 more players. Keep going and you’ll have a guild. No need to pug if you have enough friends or an active guild, then you guys can run the dungeon any way you want every time without having to worry about your group.

If the mobs were easier to kill then there wouldn’t be a difference between open world PVE and dungeons, also everyone’s definition of fun is different, and that’s pretty vague and hard to program for. Dungeons are supposed to be a challenge but after running a particular path for the 100th time anyone should be able to do it in their sleep regardless of their method used. So why not shorten your time spent in a dungeon? Well that makes sense to me, and I like finding players to run dungeons with that also think along those same lines. I suggest you do the same it makes the experience much better. But we are all little snowflakes so we can’t all agree or think alike.

Creslin.1758:

Ah but it makes complete sense. Here is how I see it…

The player community at large will always follow the path of least resistance to their desired reward. If you want proof of this, then just look at any MMORPG ever.

As such, the experience and gameplay of the game is defined by this path of least resistance.

I highly disagree. Your game experience is within your control. You have the power to choose whether or not you enjoy the game, and how you enjoy the game.

Creslin.1758:

If this path is boring as hell, then so is the gameplay. If this path is really fun, then so is the gameplay. And if you do not like the path of least resistance, you are kind of forced into because:

A. Other players will pressure you into it.

B. If you don’t do it, you will be behind other players in progression and feel cheated.

A. Gather like-minded individual around yourself. They become your support group and you each allow each other to enjoy the game as you all wish to.

B. This is really an argument coming out of fear. People who use this kind of argument are afraid of “falling behind”. Of being socially or economically unequal. They’re afraid they’re not “Keeping up with the Joneses.”

The problem with this is that you’re basing your self worth/self value (your progression, in this case) on someone else instead of basing it on yourself. That paranoid feeling of being cheated because you aren’t able to “keep up”? That is something within your control. Stop using others as a metric to define yourself, and instead use yourself as the metric.

Creslin.1758:

Which is why I don’t like that stacking is the path of least resistance. It’s just not fun and I don’t like the game to be defined by it.

I’m sure you meant skipping.

Creslin.1758:

Look, we proponents of fun and involving PvE want rewards too. We just to have fun getting them. We do not want to intentionally cripple ourselves.

“Proponents of fun” is a fanciful title with no weight. I have fun when I play the game. I have fun whether I’m skipping mobs or not. You’re the one not having fun when skipping mobs. I think a more accurate wording would be “Proponents of my own fun”.

Regarding crippling yourself, asking all other players to stop skipping is like saying, “Everyone go slower so it doesn’t look like I’m a cripple when I go slower.” Again, this falls back to the Keeping Up with the Joneses.

Creslin.1758:

It’s kind of like, if you are looking at your house right in front of you, 500 feet away…but instead of walking straight to it you decide to walk 2 miles around the neighborhood the long way instead.

This isn’t really something I want to do. I want the rewards in a reasonably timed manner and I also want to have fun doing it.

Telling people to form an “intentionally handicapped” group isn’t really viable. For one, it would take forever to find people to join it. And for two…we still want the rewards efficiently, we just want that process to be fun.

I’d say it’d be closer to this: You’re at the other end of the street from your house. A run where you skip is just going from one end of the street to your house. A full clear would be stopping at each of your neighbor’s houses to chat with them before finally making it home.

Some people might enjoy stopping and talking with their neighbors. Some people just want to head straight home.

Now, telling people to form their own group and put in “not skipping” is perfectly viable. You have many people who vociferously argue against skipping, so there shouldn’t be any shortage of party members. All you have to get over is your fear of “falling behind.”

MastaNeenja.1537:

Nemesis.8593:

Creslin.1758:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Nemesis.8593:

…

…

…

My point was that his example (an item dispenser in lieu of a dungeon run) is as illogical as making a task unreasonably difficult on yourself.
———————————
I do find it interesting that you’re a strong proponent of the experience of the dungeon and yet have come with this argument with a monetary/extrinsic basis. If anything, the saying Nemesis used, “the harder the battle, the sweeter the victory,” is entirely intrinsic. It means that I will gain that much more satisfaction even as more obstacles come my way because I will have overcome them.

If you were truly only concerned with the experience of doing a dungeon, the argument of monetary function shouldn’t come into it.

Ah but it makes complete sense. Here is how I see it…

The player community at large will always follow the path of least resistance to their desired reward. If you want proof of this, then just look at any MMORPG ever.

As such, the experience and gameplay of the game is defined by this path of least resistance. If this path is boring as hell, then so is the gameplay. If this path is really fun, then so is the gameplay. And if you do not like the path of least resistance, you are kind of forced into because:

A. Other players will pressure you into it.

B. If you don’t do it, you will be behind other players in progression and feel cheated.

So I think that it’s VERY important for this path of least resistance to actually be a very fun experience. Because it defines how the game is played.

Which is why I don’t like that stacking is the path of least resistance. It’s just not fun and I don’t like the game to be defined by it.

Exactly my point…

You two should form a party then you’ll only need 3 more players. Keep going and you’ll have a guild. No need to pug if you have enough friends or an active guild, then you guys can run the dungeon any way you want every time without having to worry about your group.

If the mobs were easier to kill then there wouldn’t be a difference between open world PVE and dungeons, also everyone’s definition of fun is different, and that’s pretty vague and hard to program for. Dungeons are supposed to be a challenge but after running a particular path for the 100th time anyone should be able to do it in their sleep regardless of their method used. So why not shorten your time spent in a dungeon? Well that makes sense to me, and I like finding players to run dungeons with that also think along those same lines. I suggest you do the same it makes the experience much better. But we are all little snowflakes so we can’t all agree or think alike.

To your first point about us forming a group together…please re-read the post you just responded to.

To the second point. Let me just flat out say that I think your view that dungeons should just be sped through in zombie like fashion after being experienced, is wrong. This is subjective of course, and I cannot take your opinion from you, nor would I want to do that. This is also not any kind of personal attack against anyone that holds your view, it is merely a discussion.

Regardless I will actively argue against your view, and argue that my view is better for the game. My view being that dungeons should ideally offer fun and challenge throughout your entire play experience.

At no point should playing the game just be a means to an end (the carrot). That is when it ceases to be fun, you are literally going through the motions to get some in-game item.

All I want, is for dungeons to be dynamic, fun and less predictable. The only people this will upset are those that don’t care about playing the game, and only want to get rewards as quickly as possible. And honestly, I don’t care if they are upset.

This may sound cold, but like you said, not everyone can get their way. And I will never prefer a status quo that I think is bad just because some people like it.

Creslin.1758:

All I want, is for dungeons to be dynamic, fun and less predictable. The only people this will upset are those that don’t care about playing the game, and only want to get rewards as quickly as possible. And honestly, I don’t care if they are upset.

This may sound cold, but like you said, not everyone can get their way. And I will never prefer a status quo that I think is bad just because some people like it.

This is perfectly fine, I wouldn’t mind a dynamic and less predictable dungeon. (Dungeons are already fun for me, btw.)

However, I feel that this is part of the realm of the game design itself. That means that if you want change in this part, it does no good to post here where the game devs won’t see it.

Now, if you want to argue for some kind of social change in the playerbase, I think this is the place to do so.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

…the experience and gameplay of the game is defined by this path of least resistance.

I highly disagree. Your game experience is within your control. You have the power to choose whether or not you enjoy the game, and how you enjoy the game.

But you are denying the social aspect of the MMORPG. Every MMORPG (or even Multiplayer game) is a social experience that even has its own culture, to a large extent, that is why we play them. Yes, I could ignore every other player in GW2 but a pocket few that I find that share my views. But in doing this, I would essentially be shutting myself off from the game community because I dislike a certain aspect of the game.

At that point, why even play? Part of the fun of the game is playing with different people. So basically, unless you want to entirely shut yourself off to the game community, you are subject to the game’s cultural norms. One of which is stacking in dungeons and the speed-run/zerker meta.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

If this path is boring as hell, then so is the gameplay….

A. Gather like-minded individual around yourself. They become your support group and you each allow each other to enjoy the game as you all wish to.

B. This is really an argument coming out of fear. People who use this kind of argument are afraid of “falling behind”. Of being socially or economically unequal. They’re afraid they’re not “Keeping up with the Joneses.”

The problem with this is that you’re basing your self worth/self value (your progression, in this case) on someone else instead of basing it on yourself. That paranoid feeling of being cheated because you aren’t able to “keep up”? That is something within your control. Stop using others as a metric to define yourself, and instead use yourself as the metric.

To point A…the my previous response answers that. To the psycho-babble response…really?

I play RPGs for the experience/fun and the progression. I like to progress my character, I don’t like to spend 3 times as long as someone else. I don’t really think this means I have some crazy self-esteem problem lol…

All I want, is to progress my character at a good pace, and not be forced into doing droll activities to do that…why is this so difficult to understand???

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

Which is why I don’t like that stacking is the path of least resistance. It’s just not fun and I don’t like the game to be defined by it.

I’m sure you meant skipping.

Nope, definitely meant stacking. I’m not a fan of the gameplay stacking entails. Standing in one spot, dealing with weird camera angles, not being able to see your character, not be able to use mobile attacks.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

Look, we proponents of fun and involving PvE want rewards too. ..

“Proponents of fun” is a fanciful title with no weight. I have fun when I play the game. I have fun whether I’m skipping mobs or not. You’re the one not having fun when skipping mobs. I think a more accurate wording would be “Proponents of my own fun”.

Regarding crippling yourself, asking all other players to stop skipping is like saying, “Everyone go slower so it doesn’t look like I’m a cripple when I go slower.” Again, this falls back to the Keeping Up with the Joneses.

Okay fine, let’s say “proponents of not wanting dungeons to be dominated by cheesy AI exploits.” Better?

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

…

I’d say it’d be closer to this: You’re at the other end of the street from your house. A run where you skip is just going from one end of the street to your house. A full clear would be stopping at each of your neighbor’s houses to chat with them before finally making it home.

Some people might enjoy stopping and talking with their neighbors. Some people just want to head straight home.

Now, telling people to form their own group and put in “not skipping” is perfectly viable. You have many people who vociferously argue against skipping, so there shouldn’t be any shortage of party members. All you have to get over is your fear of “falling behind.”

So basically…we are not arguing whether or not it is “possible” to play the game however you want with like-minded people. We are arguing about what the NORM for the game should be.

So any argument of the form “well you can just make your own group” is not valid.

My problem is not that I personally have to skip through dungeons and stack nearly every fight. My problem is that, that is the NORM.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

All I want, is for dungeons to be dynamic, fun and less predictable. The only people this will upset are those that don’t care about playing the game, and only want to get rewards as quickly as possible. And honestly, I don’t care if they are upset.

This may sound cold, but like you said, not everyone can get their way. And I will never prefer a status quo that I think is bad just because some people like it.

This is perfectly fine, I wouldn’t mind a dynamic and less predictable dungeon. (Dungeons are already fun for me, btw.)

However, I feel that this is part of the realm of the game design itself. That means that if you want change in this part, it does no good to post here where the game devs won’t see it.

Now, if you want to argue for some kind of social change in the playerbase, I think this is the place to do so.

Forums are here to discuss things. That is why we post. I wanted to see how other people felt about this, and discuss it with them.

Creslin.1758:

To your first point about us forming a group together…please re-read the post you just responded to.

To the second point. Let me just flat out say that I think your view that dungeons should just be sped through in zombie like fashion after being experienced, is wrong. This is subjective of course, and I cannot take your opinion from you, nor would I want to do that. This is also not any kind of personal attack against anyone that holds your view, it is merely a discussion.

Regardless I will actively argue against your view, and argue that my view is better for the game. My view being that dungeons should ideally offer fun and challenge throughout your entire play experience.

At no point should playing the game just be a means to an end (the carrot). That is when it ceases to be fun, you are literally going through the motions to get some in-game item.

All I want, is for dungeons to be dynamic, fun and less predictable. The only people this will upset are those that don’t care about playing the game, and only want to get rewards as quickly as possible. And honestly, I don’t care if they are upset.

This may sound cold, but like you said, not everyone can get their way. And I will never prefer a status quo that I think is bad just because some people like it.

Actually I did read it. But I stopped reading this response around the time you wrote that your view is better, simply because it isn’t. It’s your view so you think it’s better there’s a difference, you need to learn what a fact is and what an opinion is. You also need to understand that you are forcing your views onto a group that completely disagrees with them so you are effectively yelling at a wall. I don’t care how you play, or what you think is fun. But I also don’t try to stop you from doing it so don’t try to tell me or anyone else that disagrees with you how to play or what’s fun. I’ve yet to insult you but, you’re firing off some rounds now so tell me who is the civil one in this conversation?

I would advise that if you don’t like an aspect of the game you either find a different game to play or write a piece to the developers and explain constructively why stacking is bad and how you would fix it. Just be aware that the game could change drastically for the worse for you and how you think it should play if you got your way, but that players who stack or skip and know why and how this is done will be the ones to adapt. Yelling at the community that plays the game the way it is designed to be played won’t change a thing.

Sorry but you should just, delete that e word from your posts unless you actually mean cheating, otherwise no one here is going to take you seriously. (If they did, anyway)

That’s not an insult. No one takes me seriously cause I play an Asura.

Look, this is a forum. On here we discuss, argue, debate. That is what forums are for.

If everyone just agreed or decided that there was no point in arguing, there would be no reason to go to the forum.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone on a forum and then discussing the point.

—Edit

NVM about you being one of the main debaters here, I read your name wrong lol…rest of the post stands though.

Maybe…“taking advantage of the AI?” A lot clunkier, but maybe better haha.

Creslin.1758:

Look, this is a forum. On here we discuss, argue, debate. That is what forums are for.

If everyone just agreed or decided that there was no point in arguing, there would be no reason to go to the forum.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone on a forum and then discussing the point.

I am actually offended by this. I always say that either method is valid. I just say that most people prefer the easier way. That’s…. the truth?

I’m such a bad poster, tell me more about how well you know my posting habits and playstyle.

but anyway what you are saying is that your idea is 100% right and everyone elses is 100% wrong. That’s insanity right there, insanity.

Edit: Read your edit and okay nvm

also edit I love having conversations as those I’m two different people, right Lepton?

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Creslin.1758:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’ll just never understand why others can be so stubborn to not even let people think what they want and play how they want…

It honestly sounds like a crazy religious person trying to force others into believing what they do, and I thought intelligent people were above that sort of thing.

You say this, yet you are one of the main people involved in these debates lol.

Look, this is a forum. On here we discuss, argue, debate. That is what forums are for.

If everyone just agreed or decided that there was no point in arguing, there would be no reason to go to the forum.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone on a forum and then discussing the point.

I am actually offended by this. I always say that either method is valid. I just say that most people prefer the easier way. That’s…. the truth?

I’m such a bad poster, tell me more about how well you know my posting habits and playstyle.

but anyway what you are saying is that your idea is 100% right and everyone elses is 100% wrong. That’s insanity right there, insanity.

I put an edit in my post, I read your name wrong about my first paragraph.

Also, I honestly wouldn’t take offense at people disagreeing with each other on a forum. This stuff only gets bad when people start to take things personally.

And yes, I will flat out say that I think people I disagree with are wrong, or that I think my viewpoint is better. There is nothing bad about that.

If I didn’t have a belief, I wouldn’t bother arguing for it. The key is to argue against the BELIEF and not the PERSON.

Creslin.1758:

But you are denying the social aspect of the MMORPG. Every MMORPG (or even Multiplayer game) is a social experience that even has its own culture, to a large extent, that is why we play them. Yes, I could ignore every other player in GW2 but a pocket few that I find that share my views. But in doing this, I would essentially be shutting myself off from the game community because I dislike a certain aspect of the game.

At that point, why even play? Part of the fun of the game is playing with different people. So basically, unless you want to entirely shut yourself off to the game community, you are subject to the game’s cultural norms. One of which is stacking in dungeons and the speed-run/zerker meta.

I am not denying the social aspect. What you need to recognize is that there is a give and take to dealing with others.

What you’re saying, essentially is, “I want everyone to behave this way, and then I’ll be happy when I socialize with them.”

Creslin.1758:

To point A…the my previous response answers that. To the psycho-babble response…really?

I play RPGs for the experience/fun and the progression. I like to progress my character, I don’t like to spend 3 times as long as someone else. I don’t really think this means I have some crazy self-esteem problem lol…

All I want, is to progress my character at a good pace, and not be forced into doing droll activities to do that…why is this so difficult to understand???

It’s not difficult to understand. I just pity you because you base your self worth on others.

Consider this:
There are people out there who can solo lupi in about 5-6 minutes.
I cannot solo lupi.
After a month of practice, I can now solo lupi, but in 10 minutes.

If I base my progress on other people, I’m behind the curve… “falling behind.” If I base my progress on my own personal accomplishments, I am making progress and steadily improving.

Creslin.1758:

Nope, definitely meant stacking. I’m not a fan of the gameplay stacking entails. Standing in one spot, dealing with weird camera angles, not being able to see your character, not be able to use mobile attacks.

You’re off topic, then, and you should move your posts.

Creslin.1758:

Okay fine, let’s say “proponents of not wanting dungeons to be dominated by cheesy AI exploits.” Better?

Sure. That means this is an issue you should bring up with ANet. Sitting here in the dungeon forums probably isn’t going to help in that regards.

Creslin.1758:

So basically…we are not arguing whether or not it is “possible” to play the game however you want with like-minded people. We are arguing about what the NORM for the game should be.

So any argument of the form “well you can just make your own group” is not valid.

My problem is not that I personally have to skip through dungeons and stack nearly every fight. My problem is that, that is the NORM.

It is perfectly valid to make your own group. In fact, it is THE power you have as a player. It is given to you by ANet to deal with your issues such as this.

Ask yourself this, why does the norm have to be where you are? Why do you have to base your progress on what others’ accomplishments are?

DigitalKirin.9714:

…

It is perfectly valid to make your own group. In fact, it is THE power you have as a player. It is given to you by ANet to deal with your issues such as this.

Ask yourself this, why does the norm have to be where you are? Why do you have to base your progress on what others’ accomplishments are?

Okay so first, can we stop with these ridiculous attempts at psychoanalysis lol?

Gotta say, I could care less if someone could solo Lupi faster…I honestly don’t even know who Lupi is lol. All I want is Empyreal fragments so that I can get ascended armor for WvW and maybe dungeon runs. And I would like to have fun in dungeons while doing so.

That’s really it. There is no deeper meaning here, sorry to say. Though if you would like to put me back on your virtual couch, feel free lol.

Creslin.1758:

Okay so first, can we stop with these ridiculous attempts at psychoanalysis lol?
…
That’s really it. There is no deeper meaning here, sorry to say. Though if you would like to put me back on your virtual couch, feel free lol.

Tell me, is that how you really feel? Are they ridiculous to you because you dislike your true feelings about the issue?

Edit: all joking aside, If you could care less, then just do the dungeons and don’t sweat the stacking. Either do it and don’t care about it, or don’t do it and make sure you’ve got a group that agrees with not stacking.

Double Edit: Why are you doing dungeons for eymperials anyways? If you’re doing WvW, you get them there too.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

Okay so first, can we stop with these ridiculous attempts at psychoanalysis lol?
…
That’s really it. There is no deeper meaning here, sorry to say. Though if you would like to put me back on your virtual couch, feel free lol.

Tell me, is that how you really feel? Are they ridiculous to you because you dislike your true feelings about the issue?

Edit: all joking aside, If you could care less, then just do the dungeons and don’t sweat the stacking. Either do it and don’t care about it, or don’t do it and make sure you’ve got a group that agrees with not stacking.

Double Edit: Why are you doing dungeons for eymperials anyways? If you’re doing WvW, you get them there too.

I actually do like the dungeons sometimes, so that’s basically why I do them. I just don’t like how dominated they are by exact routines and cheese tactics.

Also, dungeons are MUCH faster for empyreals. You will have to do WvW forever to get them.

And what you say about doing dungeons and stacking is what I’m doing right now. I just don’t like it lol.

Creslin.1758:

I actually do like the dungeons sometimes, so that’s basically why I do them. I just don’t like how dominated they are by exact routines and cheese tactics.

You’re absolutely free to dislike it. The reason they’re dominated by exact routines is because the scenarios themselves are the exact same each and every time with minimal variation. (Minimal as in, oh, the cave troll popped from the wall this time around.)

There’s 2 ways to change this.

1. ANet changes the way scenarios are done.

2. You create your own group that makes a variation on the routine. (By not stacking, or not skipping.)

Your current option: Go on the forum and hope that your words make a change to the Norm does neither. It’s probably the least effective way to spend your time in this regards.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

I actually do like the dungeons sometimes, so that’s basically why I do them. I just don’t like how dominated they are by exact routines and cheese tactics.

You’re absolutely free to dislike it. The reason they’re dominated by exact routines is because the scenarios themselves are the exact same each and every time with minimal variation. (Minimal as in, oh, the cave troll popped from the wall this time around.)

There’s 2 ways to change this.

1. ANet changes the way scenarios are done.

2. You create your own group that makes a variation on the routine. (By not stacking, or not skipping.)

Your current option: Go on the forum and hope that your words make a change to the Norm does neither. It’s probably the least effective way to spend your time in this regards.

So, it’s cool to disagree on a forum or whatever, that’s fine.

The only thing I don’t think is valid is when you say something like “you are wasting your time by discussing something.” Forums exist for discussion. And I would like to discuss whether players are happy with the norm for dungeons or not.

If you don’t want to discuss, or you see no point in discussing something, that’s cool. But don’t post on a forum telling other people that they shouldn’t have discussions.

it’s like going to painting workshop and telling everyone that they are wasting their time putting all these paints on canvases.

Creslin.1758:

So, it’s cool to disagree on a forum or whatever, that’s fine.

The only thing I don’t think is valid is when you say something like “you are wasting your time by discussing something.” Forums exist for discussion. And I would like to discuss whether players are happy with the norm for dungeons or not.

If you don’t want to discuss, or you see no point in discussing something, that’s cool. But don’t post on a forum telling other people that they shouldn’t have discussions.

it’s like going to painting workshop and telling everyone that they are wasting their time putting all these paints on canvases.

Depends. If you’re purpose is to just talk and gather opinions, that’s fine. But if your purpose is to ask ANet to change things, then your time could be better spent where they can see your message. That is all I’m saying.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Creslin.1758:

So, it’s cool to disagree on a forum or whatever, that’s fine.

The only thing I don’t think is valid is when you say something like “you are wasting your time by discussing something.” Forums exist for discussion. And I would like to discuss whether players are happy with the norm for dungeons or not.

If you don’t want to discuss, or you see no point in discussing something, that’s cool. But don’t post on a forum telling other people that they shouldn’t have discussions.

it’s like going to painting workshop and telling everyone that they are wasting their time putting all these paints on canvases.

Depends. If you’re purpose is to just talk and gather opinions, that’s fine. But if your purpose is to ask ANet to change things, then your time could be better spent where they can see your message. That is all I’m saying.

Sometimes I purposely post things here so that they don’t see them.

It works!

Well I’ve seen the painters in those workshops, most of the really are wasting their time

It’s especially depressing when they are using up perfectly good art supply on future landfill filler. Which tbh is what official forums usually end up as.

To stay topical, I don’t like some skips for pugs because I can usually tell when 1 or more members won’t make it. Then it becomes a lets wait for him to revive and run back, look at all that time we saved. This is especially true on skips where the trash you are skipping is no threat when pulled correctly and takes 30 seconds to reduce to nothing (CM final room before boss). But for the most part skipping stuff just makes sense.

i cant stand pugging in this game. because for some reason everyone thinks that everyone else is in line with the speed run. and i cant blame them, you bring up lfg and thats all you see. is speed running wrong? it wont get you banned. but it can sure derail a pug. like some one else said skipping mobs takes skill and party coordination. im sorry to say that the majority of gw2 players are bad at the game. you cant expect a pug to skip mobs or port through walls because those are advanced tactics for people who have agreed ahead of time to play the dungeon content in a non-standard way. but not knowing which mobs to skip or where to stand for which exploit can get you kicked from a party.

i personally hate skipping mobs or encounters in a dungeon. thats kinda the reason im in the dungeon. to be forced into a situation where i have to kill mobs that i would normally just ignore in open world. but just because i dont want to skip everything doesnt mean i want to kill every mob in the dungeon down to the critters. just the ones in the immediate path. the ones that you aggro if you have to die and run back. not the mobs that dont drop loot, not mobs that despawn when certain conditions are met. seems like this would be obvious enough to go unsaid but thats just how bad the dungeon community is now.

and it is just the community that is the main problem here. are the dungeons and mechanics flawed? yes. but they would seem a lot less controversial if people would just follow the dungeoneering mentality that was formed but in the original D&D where you didnt let monsters behind you in a dungeon because getting attacked from the front and the back at the same time would wipe the party. sure the games are as different as can be but the people who made these dungeons had that kind experience in mind. you go into a dangerous place delve its secrets and eliminate the dangers to make it safe for the next people who wander in. now what we have is people making a mad dash through traps and enemies to get to the end and kill the main boss. that doesn’t sound like a dungeon run that sounds like open world zerg content.

new people coming in think this is the ONLY WAY and they teach it to their friends as such. so now what happens is you get into a pug that thinks it can speed run but isnt geared/skilled for it and starts wiping. since speed running is the only way, everyone quits because no one knows the original strat where you dont stack in the one safe corner of the room and just dps.

if we can teach pugs not to skip/stack/speed run the community would benefit greatly.

Hey, people don’t play how i would like to play, the community is flawed argument…

Followed up by the D&D murder hobo style of play actually being promoted…

Yeah, I guess us skippers who don’t like murdering everything our path is what is wrong with the community.

its more of a the community is bad for the game and turns people away arguement…

followed up by you are playing a fantasy rpg so the D&D murder hobo style of play is the true essence of these types of games so get in touch with your roots being promoted…

im just trying to say that if all you wanna do is kill bosses and get rewards as fast as possible then i dont think dungeons were for you. there are plenty of bosses that are not protected by mobs and corridors and those are meant to be killed in a few minutes. so why go into content that discourages instant payout of rewards and expect everyone to be on the same page?

if you guys keep pigeon holing and kicking and misleading pugs as to the standard approach to dungeon running then eventually Anet is going to nerf speed runs and that would be a bummer because there is a place for it just not with randoms in your group.

and its not even competitive speed running. you are not timing your selves and trying to beat it. you just hate dungeons and dont want to waste time playing them. this is a dungeon community where its common to see “lets make this fast i have work in 20 mins.” at the start of a pug. thats fine for a premade but to be able to expect that from a pug says that there is something wrong with dungeon community and we need to fix it before Anet starts making changes for us.

MastaNeenja.1537:

Create a LFG and state you do not wish to skip. Play how want with people that play the same way. Skipping is optional which is good because everyone gets to play their way.

This is the most rational, easiest, cheapest, and reasonable solution.

There is always that one guy who will complaing endlessly untill everyone plays what he thinks is right way to play… Newsflash: people skip mobs because those fights are meanings and often quite annoying.

Look at fractal dredge map, you ARE forced to fight mobs therem it is longest fractal map and the most hated. That map makes playing to job and not enjoyment. After doing it countless times i honestly can’t see dredge anymore.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

MastaNeenja.1537:

Create a LFG and state you do not wish to skip. Play how want with people that play the same way. Skipping is optional which is good because everyone gets to play their way.

This is the most rational, easiest, cheapest, and reasonable solution.

Bur but but how dare people to play different from how i play!!!???

J Eberle.9312:

Why do people seriously give a flying kitten about what other people who don’t affect them are doing?

Just wow. ’Murica.

This isn’t really about what other people are doing. It is more about the overall design of the dungeons, which encourages skipping.

It’s like if you have a road, and you can take the bus , or you can walk. In this case, taking the bus is clearly faster and more efficient. You could still walk if you wanted to… but why would you?

Dungeons should encourage players to play them, not skip them. The problem is not so much with the players, but with the way the dungeons were designed. Encounters in a dungeon should be interesting, meaningful and rewarding. If they are none of those things, skipping them is justified. But if the whole dungeon is full of such encounters, you can see why people would be skipping everything.

If you have the option to do both but insist on a change that would make everyone do things the way you want, then I still think it is.

J Eberle.9312:

If you have the option to do both but insist on a change that would make everyone do things the way you want, then I still think it is.

It’s not the same.

The problem here is clearly bad dungeon design. It stands to reason that when you design a dungeon, you logically design it so that players can fight some (if not most) of the enemies in it. Avoiding some patrols is an accepted strategy, as it has been since GW1. But skipping everything can’t be, and should not be intended design.

The cry here is for better design that gives meaning to fighting the mobs in the dungeons. Give them better loot (and better drop rates), and players will be encouraged to fight them, but not forced to. Add some gating to parts of the dungeon, so not everything will be trivialized by running past all the mobs.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

J Eberle.9312:

If you have the option to do both but insist on a change that would make everyone do things the way you want, then I still think it is.

It’s not the same.

The problem here is clearly bad dungeon design. It stands to reason that when you design a dungeon, you logically design it so that players can fight some (if not most) of the enemies in it. Avoiding some patrols is an accepted strategy, as it has been since GW1. But skipping everything can’t be, and should not be intended design.

The cry here is for better design that gives meaning to fighting the mobs in the dungeons. Give them better loot (and better drop rates), and players will be encouraged to fight them, but not forced to. Add some gating to parts of the dungeon, so not everything will be trivialized by running past all the mobs.

Perhaps in your eyes it is bad game design, but not to everyone. I honestly think that time gating is bad game design. People already actively avoid time gated paths.

I agree, mobs to need to give the incentive to kill them. But I do not agree that we should force people to kill them.

J Eberle.9312:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

J Eberle.9312:

If you have the option to do both but insist on a change that would make everyone do things the way you want, then I still think it is.

It’s not the same.

The problem here is clearly bad dungeon design. It stands to reason that when you design a dungeon, you logically design it so that players can fight some (if not most) of the enemies in it. Avoiding some patrols is an accepted strategy, as it has been since GW1. But skipping everything can’t be, and should not be intended design.

The cry here is for better design that gives meaning to fighting the mobs in the dungeons. Give them better loot (and better drop rates), and players will be encouraged to fight them, but not forced to. Add some gating to parts of the dungeon, so not everything will be trivialized by running past all the mobs.

Perhaps in your eyes it is bad game design, but not to everyone. I honestly think that time gating is bad game design. People already actively avoid time gated paths.

I agree, mobs to need to give the incentive to kill them. But I do not agree that we should force people to kill them.

You still don’t get it… killing monsters “IS” the game… Would you play a game without monsters ? How about without bosses… how about we skip everything and just stand around in shiny armor…

Some of you are really convinced in gaming you should skip as much as possible, basically in an MMORPG which is designed for combat (unlike sims or train simulators) we should combat less…

It’s like… we want to fight without violence… we want to play the game without playing the game…

Nemesis.8593:

J Eberle.9312:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

J Eberle.9312:

If you have the option to do both but insist on a change that would make everyone do things the way you want, then I still think it is.

It’s not the same.

The problem here is clearly bad dungeon design. It stands to reason that when you design a dungeon, you logically design it so that players can fight some (if not most) of the enemies in it. Avoiding some patrols is an accepted strategy, as it has been since GW1. But skipping everything can’t be, and should not be intended design.

The cry here is for better design that gives meaning to fighting the mobs in the dungeons. Give them better loot (and better drop rates), and players will be encouraged to fight them, but not forced to. Add some gating to parts of the dungeon, so not everything will be trivialized by running past all the mobs.

Perhaps in your eyes it is bad game design, but not to everyone. I honestly think that time gating is bad game design. People already actively avoid time gated paths.

I agree, mobs to need to give the incentive to kill them. But I do not agree that we should force people to kill them.

You still don’t get it… killing monsters “IS” the game… Would you play a game without monsters ? How about without bosses… how about we skip everything and just stand around in shiny armor…

Some of you are really convinced in gaming you should skip as much as possible, basically in an MMORPG which is designed for combat (unlike sims or train simulators) we should combat less…

It’s like… we want to fight without violence… we want to play the game without playing the game…

Nemesis this has been said before – Play how you want, you are welcome to, but stop jabbering on about how horrible other people are for not doing things your way.

And for the record.. ( I really should not have to say this because it’s obvious) Nobody is asking for a game where we don’t kill anything. That sort of slippery slope argument has no bearing on reality.

Whats the point in a thief and stealth if skipping is unintended and we are supposed to kill everything.

Never said you should kill everything, i said you shouldn’t be able to SKIP EVERYTHING.
Why… why do i keep coming back to the conversation.
You guys simply won’t understand…
I am fascinated by this… this is the only game in the world (recently published) where skipping everything to the boss, then killing the boss in 40 seconds is actually possible… more then that, people actually say this is intended and want the entire game to be like this…

It’s beyond ridiculous when people actually believe “monsters are to be skipped”… ahahaha… oh god…

Nemesis.8593:

Never said you should kill everything, i said you shouldn’t be able to SKIP EVERYTHING.
Why… why do i keep coming back to the conversation.
You guys simply won’t understand…
I am fascinated by this… this is the only game in the world (recently published) where skipping everything to the boss, then killing the boss in 40 seconds is actually possible… more then that, people actually say this is intended and want the entire game to be like this…

It’s beyond ridiculous when people actually believe “monsters are to be skipped”… ahahaha… oh god…

You are sounding overly zealous, it’s uncouth.

If you are able to run past a mob that literally drops nothing worth killing it for, I think that’s enough incentive to skip.

My solution is to give mobs incentive to kill them in the ways of actual drops.

The solution of others is to just gate off things until they are killed so that people are forced to kill them whether they like it or not.

I am in support of giving people the freedom of choice.

And just so we don’t forget, here is what you said:

Nemesis.8593:

You still don’t get it… killing monsters “IS” the game… Would you play a game without monsters ? How about without bosses… how about we skip everything and just stand around in shiny armor…

mahariel.4981:

Well if you want to clear the spider room of Arah p2, be my guest.

The intended mechanic of p2 is to use the golem to push mobs around. I see what you did there, but learn to play

Well lets look at it this way, this game has design elements that actively discourage killing every little thing. You get bad xp from just killing things, the drop rates on some mobs are either nothing ever or .000001 of for an item literally worth (due to the cash shop we can compare irl currency to in game) worth 10 cents. Or we can traverse the trap and patrol filled dungeon to reach the missions end objective and get a bigger reward (currency that can’t be bought normally and a big XP payoff).

Seems like the design rewards the end objective and not just killing everything. The fact that they have removed rewards for early mobs to prevent bag farming also supports this viewpoint. The fact that all the mobs don’t have kill of us to open next door mechanics supports this view.

Ravenmoon.5318:

mahariel.4981:

Well if you want to clear the spider room of Arah p2, be my guest.

The intended mechanic of p2 is to use the golem to push mobs around. I see what you did there, but learn to play

“Learn to play”? I don’t think you know who you’re talking to. Then, why are you replying if you don’t know what are you talking about?

Edit: Unless that’s sarcasm.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Ravenmoon.5318:

mahariel.4981:

Well if you want to clear the spider room of Arah p2, be my guest.

The intended mechanic of p2 is to use the golem to push mobs around. I see what you did there, but learn to play

“Learn to play”? I don’t think you know who you’re talking to. Then, why are you replying if you don’t know what are you talking about?

Edit: Unless that’s sarcasm.

Miku, careful, that’s Sheriff Ravenmoon! You’ll get arrested for questioning his omniscience!

when did the subject of this thread change? This is the skipping thread right? Gosh why can’t people who want to skip play the game right? Well that’s just how it is some times, I think a good idea would be for the players who don’t want to skip to band together and make youtube vids of their non skip runs so those skippers will learn how to fight.