Guild Wars 2

I think we should try to reach an agreement when to start and stop the timer. That would make comparing times much easier (especially for the casual crowd).

What I’m proposing is:
1)
Timer starts when anyone moves or uses a skill.
Timer ends once you get the end reward.

or
1)
Timer starts once the path has been selected or in first enemy contact (which one happens earlier).
Timer ends once you get the end reward.

Id say the second option due to some records already taking advantage of building stacks before selecting the path. And it makes more sense on most dungeons.

Could alter it so everyone has to be by the path select npc when you start. Would prevent 4/5 of the group skipping ahead and waiting by the first boss. Which is pretty cheesy imo. Although I just think it needs to be common rules for each individual path.

In my opinion a dungeon run is from entering to the end reward so feels bit lame to do all kind of stuff before “starting”.

Like: “Hey guys we can clear this dungeon 5 mins…. but that doesn’t include X, Y and Z which we have to do first”.

Yeah I know what you mean. Its just been done so much already it would invalidate half the records.

When I remake the gwscr leaderboard, I had every intention to make the rule that the timer starts when the first NPC is interacted with. Timer ends the first frame that the golden chest with your reward appears.

This means that first dumb gate in CoE/CoF, ogden in Arah, the pre-path select interaction in SE, the guy before the graveling in AC, etc etc.

I think this is better than path selection, because some dungeons path selection is after a reasonable amount of content.

-Cookie btw, I got banned

spoj.9672:

Yeah I know what you mean. Its just been done so much already it would invalidate half the records.

I meant this for future runs. Old ones would still be valid (since they can be compared, just requires some effort). Also this should more like a guideline, not actual enforcement. For example if a rogue group starts timer 5 seconds later but finishes 2 minutes faster. They would still get the record instead of “lololol you didn’t follow our rules, invalidated!”

hybrid.5027:

When I remake the gwscr leaderboard, I had every intention to make the rule that the timer starts when the first NPC is interacted with. Timer ends the first frame that the golden chest with your reward appears.

This means that first dumb gate in CoE/CoF, ogden in Arah, the pre-path select interaction in SE, the guy before the graveling in AC, etc etc.

I think this is better than path selection, because some dungeons path selection is after a reasonable amount of content.

-Cookie btw, I got banned

You’re back in EU?

I still think the end should be when you get the XP pop for the last boss. And I agree that the timing should be the first interaction with the npc. I don’t mind building up stacks first in dungeons where it’s possible, but I can definitely understand why someone could be against it so I wouldn’t care either way it’s decided.

I guess ending the timer when the exp pops for the last boss works just as well, gets rid of a ‘cutscene skipping’ factor.

EDIT: Actually, I think having it when the golden chest appears is more consistent. Dungeons such as Arah P1 are technically completed a fair bit before you get the actual dungeon completion. Arah P4 also has some minor dialogue, and I’m not too sure about others.

tl;dr I think the golden chest appearing is probably better for consistency across dungeons.

Use common sense per dungeon/path. You need to compare what’s comparable: two runs within a path, not runs accross dungeons. So decide per path/dungeon what’s the best and stick with it.

For instance, I consider AC starts when the big door opens, but I consider the start of TA’s paths at different moments: when you enter the poison path for up and fw, but after you speak to Caithe when you do the new path.

Fror.2163:

Use common sense per dungeon/path. You need to compare what’s comparable: two runs within a path, not runs accross dungeons. So decide per path/dungeon what’s the best and stick with it.

For instance, I consider AC starts when the big door opens, but I consider the start of TA’s paths at different moments: when you enter the poison path for up and fw, but after you speak to Caithe when you do the new path.

Common sense would state that the timer starts when the dungeon starts, but it’s more convenient to have the ‘lobby’ of the dungeon to prepare first before you start the run. i.e. gathering as five before you start to run, doing a final check of builds, making sure everyone has loaded properly etc.

(seriously? as ‘#five’ gets censored?)

Fror.2163:

Use common sense per dungeon/path. You need to compare what’s comparable: two runs within a path, not runs accross dungeons. So decide per path/dungeon what’s the best and stick with it.

For instance, I consider AC starts when the big door opens, but I consider the start of TA’s paths at different moments: when you enter the poison path for up and fw, but after you speak to Caithe when you do the new path.

It’s more easier and efficient to decide simple global rules instead of needing to do same for each path.

Also one thing to consider is prestige. For normal people the run is from entering the dungeon to getting the end reward. If we create special rules then our runs won’t be realistic and people won’t care that much.
That’s why I think from start to end should be the base line. And straying from that should have a very good reason.

These are the changes I plan on making to the gwscr leaderboard when I wipe it some time this weekend.

-Your record must have a video for evidence/proof, one PoV is sufficient.
-The timer starts when the first dialogue/sequence of the dungeon has triggered. This means the first cutscene in CoE/Arah, the first door opening in CoF (I dont think that one has a cutscene), etc etc. The first time an event updates or a cutscene triggers, the timer starts.
-The timer stops when the final boss of the dungeon has been killed.
-If you’re happy to use an exploit on video, the exploit is acceptable. No hacks/3rd party program involvement. If it isn’t possible to do something without outside assistance, it is not allowed.

If there are any changes to these rules that people would like to see or discuss, feel free to piggy back off of this thread or send me a PM on the forums.

@Weth, the main problem I have with starting the timer when the dungeon is first opened is that we’re bringing in more uncontrollable variables, or rather ‘feeding’ said variables, such as loading time and having to sync enter.

And on topic of wiping records, I will leave all current records that have a video on there until a new record is submitted, within reason (see: 10 second time deviance). Obviously if they meet all of the updated rules, then the record will remain until genuinely beaten.

Yep, that’s why I suggested when someone moves or uses a skill. People can enter the dungeon and start timer when everyone is ready to go.

First event, etc also works fine but can’t be remembered that easily.

I think of coe p1 and how awful it would be to have the record done by a few seconds, but then lose it because you spent 15 seconds scrambling to kill all the little Alpha Essences scattered around the room. Would kill me.

Also the daily bonus chest is good since it usually pops up before the end cut scene, but my issue with that is if that isn’t your first run of the day…

I kind of like Wethopu’s option 1. Time starting when someone moves would clear other debates, and time stopping at end reward is a clear solid option aswell. This would get the result as close to whole dungeon running process as possible while still excluding loading times other than cutscenes.

I think Weth’s suggestion 1 is the one that should be applied. That way we can avoid pre-stacking / moving trash mobs out of the way (arah p3) before the timer start.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

I think of coe p1 and how awful it would be to have the record done by a few seconds, but then lose it because you spent 15 seconds scrambling to kill all the little Alpha Essences scattered around the room. Would kill me.

Also the daily bonus chest is good since it usually pops up before the end cut scene, but my issue with that is if that isn’t your first run of the day…

This was the other reason I wanted to keep the record at “Starts from first event/cutscene”

I wanted to keep the rules quite close to what they currently (sort of) had been, as to keep it ‘fair’ to the guilds who have their records submitted currently. As it is now, we can almost take every single video submitted and alter the time a little to see what the time would be via the new rules.

If we go by Wethospus timing, the vast majority of records will have to be redone.
How do the people who have the records feel about that?

Well it’ll be a fresh new start and a new challenge for those who hold the record

hybrid.5027:

If we go by Wethospus timing, the vast majority of records will have to be redone.
How do the people who have the records feel about that?

Would really hurt the Arah records moreso than some of the others, but just the same interacting with the first npc seems like the most no-brainer way to do it since it is reasonable across every dungeon, and doesnt invalidate old records.

As long as old ways don’t give any advantage then they should be perfectly valid because they are comparable. If they do, then penalty of X seconds can be applied.

For example on arah p1, if you have timed a full run you can easily figure out time from first gate to last boss. If old record used sigil stacking then maybe like 15 seconds of penalty can be applied.

What about just putting a timer for the 1st person who does it? the moment the timer starts the run starts, the moment the timer ends is where they think its donne. This way there’s nothing than can be said about “oh but you started there” etc. Also its eazy’r couse we dont have to go on and clock everything in the end. This worked before, why not do it again? – Define [HC]

The more I think about it the less I care about arah sigil stacking. People do it for casual runs, so it’s not like you’re taking extraordinary measures. The dungeon is designed to facilitate it, so it doesn’t seem crazy to allow it.

I’m much more inclined to go with the ‘from first event/dialogue’ due to the simplicity of it, as Nike pointed out. Is there something that you actually ‘dislike’ about it?

@Menno, the main reason is for consistency. It’s nice to have rules and guidelines set for all guilds to do their records by, instead of “we timed between x point and y point, you guys do the same”. If we set a start and end ‘rule’, then we have a standard that people are expected to meet for each of their records.

Though, back to the topic of the end timer:

When last boss dies, or when golden chest appears? Please give an argument for why you prefer x over y.

Last boss dying is my preference because it is the same across every dungeon and eliminates annoying things like cut scene loading times, or rng based events that occur after the dungeon is “over” that could potentially screw things up, and you eliminate the problem of someone having already done their daily.

These are what I have set the rules as

I’ll be purging the leaderboard of a lot of records, make sure you check them out and let me know of any mistakes. If you feel like your record should be on there, make sure it’s both submitted on the forum and that I’m aware of it.

PM me on these forums or gwscr if you have any complaints/questions.

What about 4 of the group going for certain goal before triggering the timer by interacting with npc or triggering a cutscene? I think that might cause problems unless it’s decided that all have to stand next to each other while triggering it, at which point why not just start timing when first people moves or uses a skill in the instance?

Full runs – Timer begins with interaction of first npc (this does mean the first graveling in AC doesn’t count, but that should be fine). The remaining players who do not start the dungeon event can get into location. Pre-stacking allowed. Pre-pathing is not allowed. Timer ends with boss kill.

Encounters – Timer begins upon first hit. Pre-stacking allowed. Pathing allowed. ( I like this because it leaves more room for creativity). Although there is a good case for timer beginning upon aggro.

Link no work.

/15char

laharl.8435:

Full runs – Timer begins with interaction of first npc (this does mean the first graveling in AC doesn’t count, but that should be fine). The remaining players who do not start the dungeon event can get into location. Pre-stacking allowed. Pre-pathing is not allowed. Timer ends with boss kill.

There is an npc you trigger with proximity to open the first door in AC. That trigger is the obvious place to start.

Give an example of a goal that can be worked towards before the first event has been triggered in a dungeon. The first dialogue/event trigger for any dungeon is consistent for all dungeons, and is an easier standard to not only ‘enforce’ but to play by. This is the standard we shall be using.

As for pre-stacking/pathing mobs in Arah, I came to the conclusion that it is not game changing, and thus is within acceptable limits.

Yes, I am playing the dictator.

btw, I fixed the thread I wanted to link. These forums really hate ampersands.

The Rules
The Leaderboard

Leaderboard has been purged of screenshot records, all videos submitted have been double checked to make sure the submitted times are accurate.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

laharl.8435:

Full runs – Timer begins with interaction of first npc (this does mean the first graveling in AC doesn’t count, but that should be fine). The remaining players who do not start the dungeon event can get into location. Pre-stacking allowed. Pre-pathing is not allowed. Timer ends with boss kill.

There is an npc you trigger with proximity to open the first door in AC. That trigger is the obvious place to start.

Ah, my mistake. For some reason I was remembering the npc being after the graveling.

rT and HC should add their recent records to the forum to get these more up to date.

hybrid.5027:

Give an example of a goal that can be worked towards before the first event has been triggered in a dungeon. The first dialogue/event trigger for any dungeon is consistent for all dungeons, and is an easier standard to not only ‘enforce’ but to play by. This is the standard we shall be using.

As for pre-stacking/pathing mobs in Arah, I came to the conclusion that it is not game changing, and thus is within acceptable limits.

Yes, I am playing the dictator.

btw, I fixed the thread I wanted to link. These forums really hate ampersands.

The Rules
The Leaderboard

Leaderboard has been purged of screenshot records, all videos submitted have been double checked to make sure the submitted times are accurate.

You should put in a section for boss kills.

laharl.8435:

You should put in a section for boss kills.

I plan on doing that in the near future. Working on a table that is easy for me to keep updated, similar to the one for dungeons. Hope to have it done soon.

My idea was to probably label it ‘Other records’. This includes pretty much anything you want to have a record of: Boss kills, Fractal level clears/full clears, heart completions (lol). Anything you want to be the record holder of, you can be.

As for rules for boss kills, I planned on going with something simple such as:

-The timer starts as soon as damage is dealt to the boss, or a condition is inflicted.
-The timer ends when the boss is dead.

If you can think of other rules that should/would be needed, feel free to let me know

Until enboss dies is pretty stupid in my opinion because in some dungeons you don’t get the reward when the endboss died, the path isn’t completed yet. I’d much rather have the rule wethospu listed (everyone loaded into the dungeon until reward chest appears. That one at least justifies changes by making it more overall appealing to non-sc’ers. If we don’t use that, i’d rather like from first event (door opening in Arah/AC) till reward, excluding as much stupid npc rng as possible and giving bad pc users a better chance. If someone gets stuck in a cutscene for 10s until he can skip it is just stupid.

hybrid.5027:

If you can think of other rules that should/would be needed, feel free to let me know

Ban all non-nourishment consumables
All bosses must be fought in a way that does not glitch them or prevent the party from being invulnerable to their attack
No using a Mimic’ed (or otherwise) agony attack
No gem store strength or armor boosters

We need an auto skip cutscene feature!

Dub.1273:

Until enboss dies is pretty stupid in my opinion because in some dungeons you don’t get the reward when the endboss died, the path isn’t completed yet.

Examples? All I can think of is COE, and having the record come down to killing the alpha essences is ridiculous.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

hybrid.5027:

If you can think of other rules that should/would be needed, feel free to let me know

Ban all non-nourishment consumables
All bosses must be fought in a way that does not glitch them or prevent the party from being invulnerable to their attack
No using a Mimic’ed (or otherwise) agony attack
No gem store strength or armor boosters

Do you want this for all records, or just the ‘other’ records?

As far as those rules go for dungeon records, the only one that I’d be happy to add is the no boosters one. The rest come under tactics, as far as I’m concerned. For fractal stuff, I’m kind of indecisive about the agony mimic trick. On the one hand, it’s a clever use of skill/game mechanics. On the other hand, it would almost definitely result in every fractal record ever, including that trick.

I’m not against resetting for the leaderboard(s) in the case of ‘game changing’ updates, though. For example if there were Fractal records submitted involving the mimic trick, and then the mimic trick were to be fixed.

@Dub; you’re free to make and maintain your own leaderboard with your own rules, if you want. These are the rules that I have decided are the easiest for players to follow, and the easiest for us to moderate. Pretty much the only dungeon that is effected by this rule is Arah P1; and I’m not going to tailor the rules to one dungeon path.

Yeah those were just for boss kills specifically not path clears. Path clears consumables should be ok. But since outside consumables have a history of making boss kills into jokes, I think it would be wise to not allow skritt technology or something similar to stand the test of time.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Dub.1273:

Until enboss dies is pretty stupid in my opinion because in some dungeons you don’t get the reward when the endboss died, the path isn’t completed yet.

Examples? All I can think of is COE, and having the record come down to killing the alpha essences is ridiculous.

CM path 2 and Arah path 1. But those you could still count the end as killing the last boss because the rewards are triggered by running over to a telescope and opening a cage.

I agree with COE, it should be the end of alpha because sometimes you get terrible rng with essences. It doesnt end straight away even when all essences have been killed, ive waited a full minute one time. We almost left assuming it had bugged.

Consumables like Harpy’s Feathers makes skipping trash mob a joke, so I think consumables (except food / slaying potions) should not be allowed.

Lag issues can prevent the chest from popping when it should as well. Cutoff should be from final boss death.

hybrid.5027:

@Dub; you’re free to make and maintain your own leaderboard with your own rules, if you want. These are the rules that I have decided are the easiest for players to follow, and the easiest for us to moderate. Pretty much the only dungeon that is effected by this rule is Arah P1; and I’m not going to tailor the rules to one dungeon path.

Probably misunderstood that there was some discussion ongoing instead of one setting rules, as kittened as they may be. I’m not saying your rules are kittened, just that there could be better ones that would at least make sense. From dungeon entry to chest applies to all dungeons and displays the actual dungeon time way better.

I personally do not see a problem with using stuff like elemental powder or ogre pipes, however i do see the point with skritt technology or certain stones.
IMO starting with the first npc interaction is the way to measure it, that however includes hostile NPCs aswell (stacking sigils). But you can go for different approaches here, depending on what matters to you. For example in terms of CoF p1 the complete time of a run would “matter” since you may “want” to repeat the dungeon as often as you can, where in let’s say ta newfu you would start once the first gate opens (and probably even stop the time during these stupid cutscenes, since you have no influence over how long this will take.

I really think we should time as much as possible. If RNG on CoE end becomes a problem that can easily be overruled because we have it timed. Timing actual becomes a problem when we don’t have necessary info. Unskippable cutscenes are also part of the run and apply similarly for every team.
I guess first event/etc is fine as long as they are clearly listed for every path.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

The more I think about it the less I care about arah sigil stacking. People do it for casual runs, so it’s not like you’re taking extraordinary measures. The dungeon is designed to facilitate it, so it doesn’t seem crazy to allow it.

People stack sigils during the run, not before it.

If a npc aggro’s on the team but no one gets hit does the timer start?

Bumping this with some updates.

‘Other records’ forum will be opened with rules and a table in the next few days (hopefully). It will be a place where you can share any achievement that you have, and would like to be seen by others. If people have any input on what they’d like to see in terms of rules for certain things (boss kills, fractals), just let me know.

A few records have been beat (in some cases shattered), but weren’t advertised very publically (see: CoE). Check out The leaderboard for the current records of every path! Don’t forget to submit your time if you’re sitting on a faster run. Quite a few paths also are yet to have a time submitted, so get busy people!

HC has runs for many of these paths that they aren’t submitting. Shadeus, get on it!