Too many one shot kills in dungeons
Spec for damage, damage, and more damage.
Dungeons are dead content. They’ve completely abandoned them which is sad, but just a fact. So don’t get too caught up in their issues, they’re not going to be fixed.
What 1 shot skills in dungeons? are you berserker elementalist by any chance.
With one shot kills, no need to have healing abilities. Full HP = no heal needed. Dead = no heal needed. With nothing in between, what abilities to spec for?
The deal with one shot kills is that they’re very clearly telegraphed to you and give you a lot of time to react. They’re also usually on high cooldown and you get hit by regular/auto attacks in between them. That’s why you have a healing skill.
As long as your group’s okay with it, you can spec for more defense (i.e. swapping a few berserker gear pieces for knight’s/soldier’s) to make your survival easier and allowing you to bait attacks that would otherwise one shot you. As you eventually get better (hopefully) and learn to dodge these attacks, you can slowly start swapping back to your old offensive/berserker gear (which is without doubt more useful for your group).
Which one shot kill is this anyway? The only one that has a lot of one shot kill is prolly Arah (Crusher/Deadeye)
Out of a zerk eles point of view. Most boss attacks are 1 shot kills. Kholer spin, Colossus Roof Collapse. Laurent / Champion Warden Spin / Hit. Up spider Aoe thingie (cant remember the name. Not the breath but the green aoe.)
But all in all, this is a learn to play issue. Everything is not on you though, for some encounters, you need to break the bar and / or reflect. See Alphard.
Optimise [OP]
The blow is not telegraphed, or if it is, the party stacked on the mob is making it impossible to see it. Calling it a L2P issue is incorrect when theres no way to counter it. Learn to do what exactly? Not be in the same room? Order an airstrike while still at the barracks?
Also, the level numbers don’t seem to matter. Level 50 and 60 characters dying over and over in a level 35 dungeon for instance. I get that it scales characters to a specific level depending on dungeon, but being higher level eliminates the “you need to be this big to ride this ride” excuse. In a game that does a lot of things right, it sure got the recovery character part wrong. No need to recover if you have full HP one instant, and dead the next. It takes utility out of the game and makes people spec for damage only.
The blow is not telegraphed, or if it is, the party stacked on the mob is making it impossible to see it. Calling it a L2P issue is incorrect when theres no way to counter it. Learn to do what exactly? Not be in the same room? Order an airstrike while still at the barracks?
Also, the level numbers don’t seem to matter. Level 50 and 60 characters dying over and over in a level 35 dungeon for instance. I get that it scales characters to a specific level depending on dungeon, but being higher level eliminates the “you need to be this big to ride this ride” excuse. In a game that does a lot of things right, it sure got the recovery character part wrong. No need to recover if you have full HP one instant, and dead the next. It takes utility out of the game and makes people spec for damage only.
Still not giving any info on class or what skills/bosses specificaly.
You do know that you need to keep gear updated right?
a lvl 50, 60 or 70 in 35-50, 60 70 green/blue gear is worse then a 35 decked in full 35 gear.
If you stay far enough ranged her cone web attack wont immobilize you.
Edit
Since you speak of lvl 35 are we talking spider queen? big red aoe on ground stay out of them.
Kholer his hand start to glow and he stand still dont auto attack anymore then do a 360 scorpion vire pull after that spins and kill you.
That scorpon vire can be reflected and he wont spin or dodged or use ranger pet to eat the vire for you.
Are we talking end bosses and trap rooms aswell?
(edited by Linken.6345)
Learn how to dodge
“Learn how to dodge” doesn’t solve the issue. The issue is why have healing abilities when characters have either 100% HP or 0% HP? I will learn more and more for how to not get hit by the one shot kill attacks, but that does not correct the game design issue of never needing healing because the character is either full HP or dead.
Its also kind of odd that the game trains players up to 30 to use recovery abilities when leveling because mobs will damage the character but not kill in one hit. Then when I load up on recovery abilities and do a dungeon I find out I never need recovery, because dodging = living and not dodging = death.
The toon essentially has 1HP. Don’t take any damage. Spec for 100% DPS. Utility doesn’t matter. That’s the in game advice I’m given, which is why I posted – to see if recovery is actually a legit ability to spec for, or do I just abandon it and go all out DPS and use the “git out tha way” button for dealing with damage.
If you are getting one shot, then the “spec for damage” advice no longer applies. Add some durability to your gear (or build) until you learn what you’re doing differently that causes you to insta-down when other players (as noted above) aren’t having the same experience.
It’s definitely true that some attacks are harder to see in the midst of all the skill effects. It’s also true that some players don’t need to learn much; they adapt quickly to whatever ANet manages to throw at them.
However, it’s also clearly the case that tons of people have managed to do dungeons without getting one-shot regularly, including folks in low-health, low-toughness, high damage builds (glass canons).
In other words, even if there’s an issue with the game, the game also provides tools to work around/through it. Since it’s very, very unlikely ANet is going to do much work on dungeons (if any), I recommend changing tactics (whether gameplay, builds, gear, or a combination).
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Its also kind of odd that the game trains players up to 30 to use recovery abilities when leveling because mobs will damage the character but not kill in one hit. Then when I load up on recovery abilities and do a dungeon I find out I never need recovery, because dodging = living and not dodging = death.
If you are getting oneshot by every single attack, then you’re doing something wrong. Perhaps the game didn’t “train you” enough to repair your armor? Because if it’s displaying a broken red shield, your armor doesn’t give you any protection (of which the game informs you and suggests to find a repair anvil). Even then I’d doubt you are getting oneshot by mere autoattacks.
Also don’t forget some healing skills (such as defiant stance) can work as straight damage mitigation rather than healing, and other skills can provide useful side effects (such as blast finisher from arcane brilliance). They are far from useless no matter what’s your playstyle, skill or experience.
You clearly have underleveled character, poor gear and poor knowledge of the game. Stop judging game mechanics until you’ve learned them.
You said ‘too many’ one shot kills in dungeons. Ok, let’s go through this slowly rather than just making blanket statements.
Which dungeon? You’re saying level 30, so it’s probably Ascalonian Catacombs.
Next one is, what class, build, level, and equip are you using? Things that are one shot killing you as a zerk Ele might not kill you on Warrior. Equip also matters a lot, especially due to downscaling in lower level dungeons. As mentioned before, a level 35 with all level 35 gear will do much better than a level 60 with level 40 gear due to downscaling.
The last one, is, which attacks? Unless you’re very underleveled, only some bosses will one hit kill you, and only on some attacks. In AC, the probable culprits are :
1. Spider Queen : The high damage attack for SQ is its ground based AoE. This shouldn’t one-shot you, but since it’s a ticking AoE staying in it for more than a few seconds will kill you. Keep an eye on red circles on the floor and stay out.
2. Kholer : Spin Attack will likely kill anyone caught in it if they didnt dodge out after the first hit. Watch the tell (raised sword, glowy aura), count 1-2-dodge. Alternatively, skip him (Kholer is an optional boss for every path)
3. Troll. Random optional boss. The stomp will likely one shot people. It’s easily telegraphed since he jumps way high before stomping. You can skip him since he’s a bonus boss.
4. Rumblus : Falling rocks. Staying under Grast’s bubble protects you from it. Alternatively, pull him away from the lowered area so you dont get hit by falling rocks.
Other than that i dont think any other AC enemy has one hit kill moves. Those listed are only used once in a while and you can dodge them. Not exactly ‘too many’ one hit kills if it’s only a few moves is it?
“Learn how to dodge” doesn’t solve the issue. The issue is why have healing abilities when characters have either 100% HP or 0% HP? I will learn more and more for how to not get hit by the one shot kill attacks, but that does not correct the game design issue of never needing healing because the character is either full HP or dead.
As mentioned, use more tanky gear. Make sure your gear is up to date and not from level 10, also fill up slots that are empty. Dungeons are 3.5 year old content (granted ascalon got a revamp some 2.5 years ago) and there has been a lot of powercreep with new trait and skill revamps. The games combat is focused around active defences so dodging “will solve the issue”. It’s definately you in this case.
Its also kind of odd that the game trains players up to 30 to use recovery abilities when leveling because mobs will damage the character but not kill in one hit. Then when I load up on recovery abilities and do a dungeon I find out I never need recovery, because dodging = living and not dodging = death.
Must have played different games. The game is very clear about dodging and it’s necessity. Only because it doesn’t instant kill you in open world content it is very apperent that taking hits HURTS unlike most other MMOs. You should have noticed by level 30 that the heals will at most refill 60-70% of your total life with heavy cooldowns associated. If that doesn’t screem: “this is a last resort skill, pray you don’t need it”, I don’t know what does.
The toon essentially has 1HP. Don’t take any damage. Spec for 100% DPS. Utility doesn’t matter. That’s the in game advice I’m given, which is why I posted – to see if recovery is actually a legit ability to spec for, or do I just abandon it and go all out DPS and use the “git out tha way” button for dealing with damage.
Actually the sentiment of don’t take any damage is always a good sentiment to play around. Granted in many other MMOs you get to have a healer at your back to cover for your mistakes. Treating everything like it is floor on lava though is a good basic approach.
Utility matters quite a bit, just not utility in form of healing. Reflects, boons, blinds, etc. make a huge difference. Standing there and trading hits with an enemy and healing away the damage is NOT utility.
In your case, on the contraty, get some toughness in and get used to the combat. Going full glasscanon will not suite you well until you can avoid taking damage. When GW2 came out people ran soldier gear instead of berserker, there was a reason for that.
You want to use active defenses. Self heals are purposefully weak.
Against trash mobs you want to use blinds and crowd controls skills like stun and knock down.
Against bosses you can have a guardian generate aegis, you can use projectile reflects/absorbs from a mesmer/guardian/necro/(who else?). You can use a tank such as an elementalists rock golem, a ranger pet, a necro minion, etc.
Most important is to understand mechanics. You are not going to defeat bosses the first time you fight them at level 50 unless you have read a guide. You may not want to read a guide, in which case expect to experiment and fail a few times.
The blow is not telegraphed, or if it is, the party stacked on the mob is making it impossible to see it. Calling it a L2P issue is incorrect when theres no way to counter it. Learn to do what exactly? Not be in the same room? Order an airstrike while still at the barracks?
Sounds like you got frustrated over your party dying at kohler. This boss is the hardest from AC for low level, inexperienced parties because its hard hitting (but not 1 shot) spin shreds people in blues/greens, all while they take a lot of dmg from the adds. You need blocks/stun break/reflects for this boss, with that you can walk away from most of the spin damage and heal (see heals can be useful :P )
Also, the level numbers don’t seem to matter. Level 50 and 60 characters dying over and over in a level 35 dungeon for instance. I get that it scales characters to a specific level depending on dungeon, but being higher level eliminates the “you need to be this big to ride this ride” excuse. In a game that does a lot of things right, it sure got the recovery character part wrong. No need to recover if you have full HP one instant, and dead the next. It takes utility out of the game and makes people spec for damage only.
Depends on what you consider instant, in AC p3, that would be the falling rocks during last boss fight, not kohler, spider queen or lizard bosses’ attacks.
From my experience often running AC with under 80s parties, low level players get one shot because their gear is of low quality and several levels below their current lvl. What you are complaining is not a problem of levels but bad equipment.
A low level party with good gear and experience can completely shred that dungeon.
Underworld Vabbi 1.5yr
There seems to be a bit of confusion here so I will clear that up.
My complaint is not about dying too often, so all of the L2p, poor gear, too low level stuff, is invalid.
My complaint is about one shot kills and how that eliminates the need for recovery or utility.
Even if I had the bestemest gear and the reflexes of a military android and thus never get hit, this still means no need for recovery or utility as the hp total is at 100%.
If I can dodge 999/1000 hits in a one shot kill situation, I have 100% hp 99.9% of the time and 0% hp .1% of the time. Need for recovery or utility = 0. This causes a fundamental game change not enough people are talking about, as they all think those who do talk about it are talking about “dying too often” – which is not the case.
Thanks for the feedback. Have fun all.
Ok guys he’s obivously trolling since he hasn’t answer any of your questions.
So because since there are a couple once shot kills in all of the dungeons and dungeon paths… theres no point in a healing skill??
I’ve soloed many dungeons including fractals in pure dps gear. If your getting one shotted then it’s a learn to play issue.
Even if I could dodge every single one shot kill and have 100% hp at all times, that does not change the real issue I created the thread for, which is recovery role not being necessary in one-shot-kill situations.
Having the reflexes of a ninja just means you can get through the content without being hit, but it doesn’t change the game design flaw where characters have recovery abilities, which are irrelevant in one shot kill situations. The more this happens, the less relevant those abilities are.
If you soloed it regularly, and did get hit by those things that are one shotting over level characters, but didn’t die all the time, then its not a L2p issue, its a farm some gear issue.
You still haven’t told us the exact mechanic or boss.
Can you please deliver?
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Because this topic is not about any specific encounter. Its about game design.
Think of it this way. Using a reductio-ad-absurdum scenario, if a game designer cranked out a game where all kills were one shot, there is never a need for recovery as a role, as a character, as an ability, etc. The more they back off of that and add in hits that leave the character with a percentage of their health bar left, the more, by degree, recovery becomes desired, and more people build it into their characters.
Too many games have turned into build-for-DPS-only games due to the formula of:
-Game comes out
-People master the system
-Those who mastered it beg for challenge
-Game designer provides “challenge” in the form of unforgiving damage inflation
-Playstyles/character building homogenized to match the same one meta.
Then damage inflation is defended by those who mastered the system by telling people to L2P repeatedly, not realizing that if everyone takes that advice, it still doesn’t solve the issue of eroding the roles in the game down to build-for-DPS-only®, as learning to play simply means dodging faster, and avoiding the one hit that kills, rather than needing/desiring utility or recovery, and characters are all built to do the same thing rather than striving for useful build diversity. End result: The graphics are beautiful, but its still Gauntlet nonetheless. Green Elf has shot the food!
(edited by SoV.5139)
There are enough encounters having no oneshot mechanic so your whole point of view is seen by a wrong assumption.
Only a few bosses have those in their rotation (that means not every attack of them) and they are avoidable with a dodge.
So, it’s really just a l2p issue if you die over and over and over again.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
Its not a L2P issue regardless, as learning to never get hit doesn’t resolve the issue being brought up here, which is confusing damage inflation as “challenge” resulting in character building for only DPS being the only acceptable meta.
Perhaps your threshold where you think its too much and mine where I think its too much is different, but drawing the line in different spots doesn’t make this a non issue. If you draw the line further away than I do, you will merely accept damage inflation as “challenge” until it crosses your line, then you will likely provide the same feedback I am currently. I feel it is better to catch it earlier, as I have seen what happens to games where it is not caught early enough, as outlined in my previous post.
Because this topic is not about any specific encounter. Its about game design.
I think you’re missing the point that others are making: the fact is that tons of other people don’t get one shot and that suggests that the overall design is fine.
I accept that you are getting one shot. I would like to believe that I have an open enough mind to consider the possibility that I’m wrong and that some or even many encounters or ‘runs’ in some or even all dungeons are poorly designed.
However, without specific examples or at least a better description, I have to accept what I’ve seen and what others have seen, to wit: there aren’t “too many one shot kills”. You won’t convince me that there’s an issue in Guild Wars 2 simply by stating that there is one; I need your help in understanding why you claim that there is. In this game.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
As I started the topic, I don’t feel I’m missing the point. Anyone saying “L2P” is missing the point, because the point is not one player being one shot a lot, which is what L2P addresses.
The point is one shot kills becoming more prevalent causes players in games to adhere to the “DPS only” meta, which I already see growing here in GW2.
Furthermore, addressing the incorrect response of "L2P again (which is due to people incorrectly believing the thread is about one person dying too often) , even if I, or anyone and everyone else learn to never ever get hit, this doesn’t fix the issue outlined as the real topic of the thread, which is recovery role and utility role still never needed in the game.
So, topic = recovery and utility less desired as build roles when quantity of one shot kills increase in game.
Topic =/= one dude got pwned too often and wants to change the entire game because of it.
As I started the topic, I don’t feel I’m missing the point. Anyone saying “L2P” is missing the point, because the point is not one player being one shot a lot, which is what L2P addresses.
The point is one shot kills becoming more prevalent causes players in games to adhere to the “DPS only” meta, which I already see growing here in GW2.
Furthermore, addressing the incorrect response of "L2P again (which is due to people incorrectly believing the thread is about one person dying too often) , even if I, or anyone and everyone else learn to never ever get hit, this doesn’t fix the issue outlined as the real topic of the thread, which is recovery role and utility role still never needed in the game.
So, topic = recovery and utility less desired as build roles when quantity of one shot kills increase in game.
Topic =/= one dude got pwned too often and wants to change the entire game because of it.
Yes its very good then that the 1 shot kills are so few then mainly raids enrage timer and axemaster snipe in hot map.
Since why eveyone go dps and nothing else is becouse they feel they know how to not get hit and want to finish the fastest.
If you feel you are to squishy then use soldiers instead, its clearly a learn to play issue for you.
I agree that one-shot kills make recovery utilities not very useful. However I don’t see very many one-shot kills in dungeons. I have a hard time thinking of anything in dungeons that will one-shot my warrior or necro. If playing an ele then it’s more likely for things to down you in one hit. This is why it would be helpful to know what class you’re playing and what encounters you’re getting one-shot on.
Fluffy Fuz
The Edge of Oblivion [EDGE]
The Edge of Oblivion [EDGE]
As I started the topic, I don’t feel I’m missing the point. Anyone saying “L2P” is missing the point, because the point is not one player being one shot a lot, which is what L2P addresses.
Of course you’re not missing the point of the original post. I’m saying that you haven’t yet addressed any of the responses. You’ve made a claim about Guild Wars 2; you haven’t backed it up. That leaves nothing to disucss.
Where is it that you think there any one-shot mechanics, let alone “too many”? I’m not sure what you mean by “one shot” at this point, at least, not as it applies to dungeons in this game.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Your original post asked, what to spec for. We answered, group damage, active defenses, cc for break bars, and have some swap ins for stealth/swiftness on skips.
Now you want to make the thread about a flaw in the game. But do you realize Anet has told us all dungeons are not being worked on anymore? They are pretty much all 4 years old and will never be updated again.
Consider raids. Healing is real there. You can be a healer, and your own personal heal skill is used too. Anet has heard your complainst, and already released content to address it.
If you want new dungeons to come out, make a new thread, I promise you will get plenty of support from this forum, and none from Anet.
If all you want to do is complain about how bad a job Anet did on dungeons, make a new thread, I promise you will get plenty of support from this forum too.