And I am become kitten, the destroyer of kittens
Torch on Rangers seems a bit overpowered.
1 2
A condi reaper couldnt outdps anything even if he/she gave her left arm for it. On a diff aproach tho i believe the reason why condi ranger deals so high dmg is number 1 because of take root number two because they dony need to take any utilities like sun spirit etc since 2 druids on your group got that covered.
(edited by zealex.9410)
Torch on Ranger is just awesome.
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Basically you can apply 9 stacks of burning after 5 seconds every 6.6 seconds (roughly), with a full viper set with nightmare runes you get 15k damage on that skill alone, which is a whooping 3k increase of dps by using it, and thus completely outshine every other condi build currently in the game, especially necros.
Ever heard of Meteor Shower? That single skill is such a huge dps increase on big hitboxes that some people insist on Ele vs big hitboxes.
The problem is that it doesn’t make sense for rangers to have such a powerful skill in a single weapon, there isn’t a single trait or gear piece that boosts burning damage, yet this skill could possibly be the main source of DPS for the build.
All in all it feels like a vestige from the days before condition damage was relevant.
Why it doesn’t make sense?
Oh and warriors have a trait that boosts burning damage? I can only find +33% duration. Thats done by a rangers gear. Rangers have a trait that explicitly boosts torch skills. This thread feels more like: Why can a ranger do good dps now?
Do you want the old days of the dungeons back when someone got kicked for just joining a group before he even could switch char? Atm all classes but rev have a more or less good damage build and you want to see the only good dps build of a ranger nerfed?
Basically you can apply 9 stacks of burning after 5 seconds every 6.6 seconds (roughly), with a full viper set with nightmare runes you get 15k damage on that skill alone, which is a whooping 3k increase of dps by using it, and thus completely outshine every other condi build currently in the game, especially necros.
Ever heard of Meteor Shower? That single skill is such a huge dps increase on big hitboxes that some people insist on Ele vs big hitboxes.
The problem is that it doesn’t make sense for rangers to have such a powerful skill in a single weapon, there isn’t a single trait or gear piece that boosts burning damage, yet this skill could possibly be the main source of DPS for the build.
All in all it feels like a vestige from the days before condition damage was relevant.
Why it doesn’t make sense?
Oh and warriors have a trait that boosts burning damage? I can only find +33% duration. Thats done by a rangers gear. Rangers have a trait that explicitly boosts torch skills. This thread feels more like: Why can a ranger do good dps now?
Do you want the old days of the dungeons back when someone got kicked for just joining a group before he even could switch char? Atm all classes but rev have a more or less good damage build and you want to see the only good dps build of a ranger nerfed?
Yes and meteor shower got nerfed because it was way out of line, just like bonfire is.
Warrior’s main condi damage comes from burning, but that’s because longbow deals mostly burning damage, and longbow is the main source of damage for warriors, torch and sword only complement it.
In the case of rangers, shortbow and axe deal bleeding damage and a bit of poison damage, but by far you’re focused mainly on the burning of the torch with the rest of the build acting as a complement.
and yes it’s a problem that condi rangers are basically shining now, there is not a single raid boss that is more vulnerable to power damage than condi damage, with KC being the exception that proves the rule, and because condi rangers are by far the best condi class, it means you will get kicked because you are not running condi ranger.
The reason ele was nerfed was precisely the same reason condi ranger will get nerfed eventually.
And I am become kitten, the destroyer of kittens
and yes it’s a problem that condi rangers are basically shining now, there is not a single raid boss that is more vulnerable to power damage than condi damage, with KC being the exception that proves the rule, and because condi rangers are by far the best condi class, it means you will get kicked because you are not running condi ranger.
There will most likely always be one build that is prefered. But saying that other classes aren’t accepted is wrong. I pug alot and have seen plenty thiefes, condi mesmers, warriors (not only PS), engineers, guards, necros and eles. Most groups i’ve seen don’t even search a specific class and just search for dps. Funfact: Ele has still higher damage vs big hitboxes and engi can get higher dps than rangers.
and yes it’s a problem that condi rangers are basically shining now, there is not a single raid boss that is more vulnerable to power damage than condi damage, with KC being the exception that proves the rule, and because condi rangers are by far the best condi class, it means you will get kicked because you are not running condi ranger.
There will most likely always be one build that is prefered. But saying that other classes aren’t accepted is wrong. I pug alot and have seen plenty thiefes, condi mesmers, warriors (not only PS), engineers, guards, necros and eles. Most groups i’ve seen don’t even search a specific class and just search for dps. Funfact: Ele has still higher damage vs big hitboxes and engi can get higher dps than rangers.
Literally the first sentence on my original post:
Condi Rangers are currently the top choice for dps in raids, not because they have the highest dps numbers (power ele scepter/warhorn or dagger/warhorn can beat those numbers easily)
Also those groups that don’t bring meta classes? they fail 2 times and disband, at least that’s my experience.
And I am become kitten, the destroyer of kittens
Basically you can apply 9 stacks of burning after 5 seconds every 6.6 seconds (roughly), with a full viper set with nightmare runes you get 15k damage on that skill alone, which is a whooping 3k increase of dps by using it, and thus completely outshine every other condi build currently in the game, especially necros.
Ever heard of Meteor Shower? That single skill is such a huge dps increase on big hitboxes that some people insist on Ele vs big hitboxes.
The problem is that it doesn’t make sense for rangers to have such a powerful skill in a single weapon, there isn’t a single trait or gear piece that boosts burning damage, yet this skill could possibly be the main source of DPS for the build.
All in all it feels like a vestige from the days before condition damage was relevant.
Why it doesn’t make sense?
Oh and warriors have a trait that boosts burning damage? I can only find +33% duration. Thats done by a rangers gear. Rangers have a trait that explicitly boosts torch skills. This thread feels more like: Why can a ranger do good dps now?
Do you want the old days of the dungeons back when someone got kicked for just joining a group before he even could switch char? Atm all classes but rev have a more or less good damage build and you want to see the only good dps build of a ranger nerfed?
man i want them to buff ranger gs so bad the power gs build is so much fun
w8 isnt crangers main condi the bleeds?
Basically you can apply 9 stacks of burning after 5 seconds every 6.6 seconds (roughly), with a full viper set with nightmare runes you get 15k damage on that skill alone, which is a whooping 3k increase of dps by using it, and thus completely outshine every other condi build currently in the game, especially necros.
Ever heard of Meteor Shower? That single skill is such a huge dps increase on big hitboxes that some people insist on Ele vs big hitboxes.
The problem is that it doesn’t make sense for rangers to have such a powerful skill in a single weapon, there isn’t a single trait or gear piece that boosts burning damage, yet this skill could possibly be the main source of DPS for the build.
All in all it feels like a vestige from the days before condition damage was relevant.
Why it doesn’t make sense?
Oh and warriors have a trait that boosts burning damage? I can only find +33% duration. Thats done by a rangers gear. Rangers have a trait that explicitly boosts torch skills. This thread feels more like: Why can a ranger do good dps now?
Do you want the old days of the dungeons back when someone got kicked for just joining a group before he even could switch char? Atm all classes but rev have a more or less good damage build and you want to see the only good dps build of a ranger nerfed?Yes and meteor shower got nerfed because it was way out of line, just like bonfire is.
Warrior’s main condi damage comes from burning, but that’s because longbow deals mostly burning damage, and longbow is the main source of damage for warriors, torch and sword only complement it.
In the case of rangers, shortbow and axe deal bleeding damage and a bit of poison damage, but by far you’re focused mainly on the burning of the torch with the rest of the build acting as a complement.
and yes it’s a problem that condi rangers are basically shining now, there is not a single raid boss that is more vulnerable to power damage than condi damage, with KC being the exception that proves the rule, and because condi rangers are by far the best condi class, it means you will get kicked because you are not running condi ranger.
The reason ele was nerfed was precisely the same reason condi ranger will get nerfed eventually.
You don’t know much about Rangers, do you? Let me guess, Necro main?
Scorched Earth deals pretty much the same total damage as Bonfire, and Warriors can spam it 5 times in a row, but somehow you are fine with Warrior damage?
Rangers are NOT focused on Burning, most of their damage comes from Bleeds.
“Not a single raid boss”.. Have you met VG, Gorse (Condi isn’t bad here, but still beaten by tempests), Slothasor, KC, Xera & arguably even Deimos?
Are Condi classes a common tactic on those bosses?
What about Engi getting the same/higher DPS than Condi Ranger, are you ok with that?
Your whole post can be summarized into “I don’t like Rangers, please nerf them”.
(edited by Coconut.7082)
You don’t know much about Rangers, do you? Let me guess, Necro main?
Scorched Earth deals pretty much the same total damage as Bonefire, and Warriors can spam it 5 times in a row, but somehow you are fine with Warrior damage?
Rangers are NOT focused on Burning, most of their damage comes from Bleeds.
“Not a single raid boss”.. Have you met VG, Gorse (Condi isn’t bad here, but still beaten by tempests), Slothasor, KC, Xera & arguably even Deimos?
Are Condi classes a common tactic on those bosses?What about Engi getting the same/higher DPS than Condi Ranger, are you ok with that?
Your whole post can be summarized into “I don’t like Rangers, please nerf them”.
Sure the main bulk of the damage comes from bleeding, the extra 3k dps is what makes rangers the top tier choice and outshines every single other condi class.
Condi warrior can spam scorched earth 5 times only under optimal circumstances, but that’s their bulk of DPS, and even then it’s not enough to surpass condi rangers, even if they build completely focused on dps, and thus sacrificing the PS utility.
And no, there is not a single boss that is protected or has any protection against condition damage, VG is not less vulnerable to condi than to power, and in fact power is not the better option for green and blue splits, or even the guardian itself, they are both equally good.
Gorse is not protected against condi, every dps works here, tempests are better but they are also harder to play, once again, rangers are just easier to achieve optimal dps numbers and they don’t risk dying to the retaliation.
Slothasor ’kittenbox is small, condi beats any power build.
KC as I said, might be the only exception due to the exposed mechanikittenerally proving that condi is just superior to power, by introducing a gimmick that only favors power, and even then condi is only slightly worse.
Xera, once again, is neutral to any kind of damage, which makes condi better due to the ease to achieve optimal dps compared to power.
And deimos, now that’s a huge arguable because of the gimmick at the start requiring condi classes to damage the chains over time, while the boss is neutral to any kind of damage. You could bring power to the fight, but that’s just gimping yourself.
And no, I don’t hate rangers, I hate torches, torches alone have made many weapon classes obsolete, torches are the reason condi PS exist and thus why power PS is falling out of favor, which means greatswords are no longer a meta weapon, and so are not shields, maces, axes and almost every other weapon warrior can use.
Torches are the reason power ranger is no longer a thing, torches are the reason necros, thieves, guardians and revenants are not meta classes.
And on top of that, torches look aesthetically, to put it mildly, like ass for a person who goes into battle.
And I am become kitten, the destroyer of kittens
You don’t know much about Rangers, do you? Let me guess, Necro main?
Scorched Earth deals pretty much the same total damage as Bonefire, and Warriors can spam it 5 times in a row, but somehow you are fine with Warrior damage?
Rangers are NOT focused on Burning, most of their damage comes from Bleeds.
“Not a single raid boss”.. Have you met VG, Gorse (Condi isn’t bad here, but still beaten by tempests), Slothasor, KC, Xera & arguably even Deimos?
Are Condi classes a common tactic on those bosses?What about Engi getting the same/higher DPS than Condi Ranger, are you ok with that?
Your whole post can be summarized into “I don’t like Rangers, please nerf them”.
Sure the main bulk of the damage comes from bleeding, the extra 3k dps is what makes rangers the top tier choice and outshines every single other condi class.
Condi warrior can spam scorched earth 5 times only under optimal circumstances, but that’s their bulk of DPS, and even then it’s not enough to surpass condi rangers, even if they build completely focused on dps, and thus sacrificing the PS utility.
And no, there is not a single boss that is protected or has any protection against condition damage, VG is not less vulnerable to condi than to power, and in fact power is not the better option for green and blue splits, or even the guardian itself, they are both equally good.
Gorse is not protected against condi, every dps works here, tempests are better but they are also harder to play, once again, rangers are just easier to achieve optimal dps numbers and they don’t risk dying to the retaliation.
Slothasor ’kittenbox is small, condi beats any power build.
KC as I said, might be the only exception due to the exposed mechanikittenerally proving that condi is just superior to power, by introducing a gimmick that only favors power, and even then condi is only slightly worse.
Xera, once again, is neutral to any kind of damage, which makes condi better due to the ease to achieve optimal dps compared to power.
And deimos, now that’s a huge arguable because of the gimmick at the start requiring condi classes to damage the chains over time, while the boss is neutral to any kind of damage. You could bring power to the fight, but that’s just gimping yourself.
And no, I don’t hate rangers, I hate torches, torches alone have made many weapon classes obsolete, torches are the reason condi PS exist and thus why power PS is falling out of favor, which means greatswords are no longer a meta weapon, and so are not shields, maces, axes and almost every other weapon warrior can use.
Torches are the reason power ranger is no longer a thing, torches are the reason necros, thieves, guardians and revenants are not meta classes.
And on top of that, torches look aesthetically, to put it mildly, like ass for a person who goes into battle.
Completely ignored the fact that they are pretty much on par with Engis and Warriors?
Wrong, Condi Warrior/PS can spam it 5 times pretty much under every circumstances.
Both DPS Warrior and PS build use the PS utility.
There’s no actual protection against condis, its the nature of the fights & edge for power classes thats bad for condis.
VG has low armor, therefore Power classes will do more damage, in fact power is the far better option for blue/green on split, they are not at all equally good.
Slothasor has the second biggest hitbox in raids, right after Samarog, combined with low armor and constant invuln phases (that cleanse condis from him), Power has the edge here.
Xera is indeed neutral and in a perfect scenario Condi will be better, but the Condis on her are converted into boons every time she steps on a shard, which would turn Condi to utter trash unless you have a tactic to avoid shards completely.
Deimos: Condis are not required at the start, you can do it perfectly fine with power. Because of the signet that is casted by Saul, you can achieve better results with Tempests over Condi classes here in a good scenario.
Power ranger was always behind Condi, Guardians actually use Torch in their main “meta” build, and all the other classes you mentioned are not “meta” because of their terrible balance & not because of torches.
Are you mad because your Power PS lost it’s place in the “meta”, so you cant use your shiny Eternity anymore?
The problem with condi ranger isn’t the fact that they do good damage. The problem with condi ranger is that they do good damage with barely any effort. By putting in 50% of the effort that someone needs to in order to achieve the max dps (~30k), you end up doing ~22k in raids. Meanwhile an elementalist that only puts in 50% of the effort you end up pulling ~10k. Playing with condi rangers allows bad players to pad their DPS because you don’t actually have to be good with the class to pull good numbers.
The problem with condi ranger isn’t the fact that they do good damage. The problem with condi ranger is that they do good damage with barely any effort. By putting in 50% of the effort that someone needs to in order to achieve the max dps (~30k), you end up doing ~22k in raids.
Go ahead, put as much effort as an autoattacking staff Daredevil and get better results.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Torches are the reason power ranger is no longer a thing, torches are the reason necros, thieves, guardians and revenants are not meta classes.
1. Guardians and thieves are a very good DPS option atm.
2. Necros still have uses. And their DPS isn’t that bad.
3. The reason power rev isn’t used is their balancing. It’s not the fault of any class or weapon.
4. I can barely keep myself from rolling around laughing because of that sentense. You really hate torches…
Regarding KC: Condition damage gets also scaled up by his debuff. The reason why power is far superior there is the rampup time that every condition build needs.
Regarding Xera: She clenses/converts conditions while standing in shards. Also powerbuilds can nuke shards far better than condi builds.
It is a bit ironic that which ever class is the most favored dps class will always, without exception, be seen as overpowered compared to all other classes. First it was warriors. Then ele took the spot with FGS, then it was icebow, then it was lavafont, then it was meteor shower and air overload, and now finally a third class has taken the crown. I don’t even know if its been two months yet and apparently some wants a new class.
Nerf it and an other class will take its place. Do changes to traits, runes, or skills and people will theory craft what is the best dps class and highest consistency. Nerfs has so far mostly resulted in less class diversity and cemented druid, mesmer and PS warrior as the holy trinity of healer, support, and support. The DPS choice is not what I would focus next balance on, and it would be fun to see the raid meta change in such drastic way that we could see alternative composition and classes. For example, maybe kill the PS trait and actually make it useful to bring skills and trait that generate might. PS trait do order of magnitude more dps increase than the torch skills will ever do.
(edited by Belorn.2659)
All the classes are fine right now except for necro and rev. Nothing OP about condi ranger if it’s on par with other classes.
The problem with condi ranger isn’t the fact that they do good damage. The problem with condi ranger is that they do good damage with barely any effort. By putting in 50% of the effort that someone needs to in order to achieve the max dps (~30k), you end up doing ~22k in raids. Meanwhile an elementalist that only puts in 50% of the effort you end up pulling ~10k. Playing with condi rangers allows bad players to pad their DPS because you don’t actually have to be good with the class to pull good numbers.
Effort is subjective, i first time when played condi reaper had to put effort because when i killed the golem my dps was 10k bellow the standart. Once i got decent or rather good at it i could do it with no effort, if you come to play a class for a long period of time and it still requires effort from you, you might wonna consider rerolling.
Ppl who say Cranger is eazy are either ignorant or experienced players that come from harder classes like ele and engi who rightfully find the class easier.
And thats fine, its fine for easy classes to have high dps and for classes to have even higher but to require more mastery over said class to pull of said result. And hell there are some ppl here that justify the dmg cranger does because apparently, its hard to place some traps infront of the boss so when it move it procs them LUL.
The reason ele was nerfed was precisely the same reason condi ranger will get nerfed eventually.
Ele was nerfed because it was BY FAR the highest DPS on any large hit box boss, no other class was even close to tempest on large hit boxes, to the point where even after the nerfs, it still out damages other classes on large hit boxes. And then on top of that, it was still the highest dps on medium hit box bosses as well. THAT is why Ele got nerfed, not because meteor storm was strong.
Condi Ranger on the other hand isn’t even the top DPS on small targets. On large targets it’s still out damaged by ele, and on small it’s outdamaged by engineer. And then it’s only slightly above the next few classes, ele before the nerfs had a 5k+ difference between it and the next highest class, condi ranger has less than 1k advantage over the next highest, condi thief.
Anet make Rev great again.
tbh iwould rather nerd condi warr over ranger
Rangers aren’t there for their own DPS. Rangers are there for Spotter, Frost Spirit, and Grace of the Land.
Server: Devona’s Rest
Rangers aren’t there for their own DPS. Rangers are there for Spotter, Frost Spirit, and Grace of the Land.
You missed the point a bit. This thread is not about druid.
Torch is borderline garbage when fighting something other than a stationary boss. Using it on humans or in the open world requires some thought.
There is no need to nerf a mediocre weapon because it lucked into working well in raids.
Rangers aren’t there for their own DPS. Rangers are there for Spotter, Frost Spirit, and Grace of the Land.
You missed the point a bit. This thread is not about druid.
2/3 ain’t bad.
Server: Devona’s Rest
Rangers aren’t there for their own DPS. Rangers are there for Spotter, Frost Spirit, and Grace of the Land.
You missed the point a bit. This thread is not about druid.
2/3 ain’t bad.
It’s not even 2/3, its 0/3
Druids are the ones who brings the buffs. Condi rangers bring only damage, occasionally sun spirit if the druid for the sub doesnt have it
You say ranger is easy to play, try some D/Wh Tempest, now that’s some incredible damage for pressing 8 buttons in a very repetitive pattern. Or Power Engi….
You say ranger is easy to play, try some D/Wh Tempest, now that’s some incredible damage for pressing 8 buttons in a very repetitive pattern. Or Power Engi….
i find placing wildfire correctly while in real raid scenario harder than playing ranger tbh
(edited by zealex.9410)
I find it difficult to agree that torch is overpowered when condi-ranger is already weaker than many other classes.
Players seems to forget that Engineer provides a passive +150 condition damage buff to the area, which easily accounts for upwards of 4k DPS in a condi-subgroup – meaning you only really need to pull 29k personal DPS to keep up with even very good condi-ranger. I’d also argue that it’s about equally difficult to pull 29k on an engi compared to 33k on a condi-ranger.
Furthermore, condi-daredevil just absolutely destroys condi-ranger DPS at most fights and has a very similar rotation.
And lastly, Elementalist can outpace a condi-ranger extremely well at many encounters (VG/Gorse/Sloth/KC/Samarog etc). I don’t believe that you have to be a skilled Elementalist player to beat condi-rangers at VG/Sloth/KC/Samarog either.
I don’t join many pug raids, but I consistantly see condi-ranger being hamfisted into roles that make no sense just because it’s the flavour of the month right now. For example, joining a Deimos and having condi-rangers sit in the middle, ranging the boss with shortbow.
Basically, easy or not, how can a class be overpowered when it isn’t even best-in-slot for any encounter in the game right now?
Condi PS warr – ton of might stacks for party and respectable condi damage.
Condi ranger – great condi damage or mediocre condi damage with great utility (condi druid).
Bosses condi ranger isn’t top dps on: cairn, overseer, samarog, deimos, sloth, kc, xera, vg, gorseval, sabetha.
How is this top dps again?
[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt
Bosses condi ranger isn’t top dps on: cairn, overseer, samarog, deimos, sloth, kc, xera, vg, gorseval, sabetha.
How is this top dps again?
Nike, I totally agree with you on the fact that condi ranger isn’t top DPS on anything and in top guilds it doesn’t matter. But in pugs and lesser groups, the output of a condi ranger laughs at any other class because the damage scales up very quickly compared to the effort put in compared to other DPS classes.
Bosses condi ranger isn’t top dps on: cairn, overseer, samarog, deimos, sloth, kc, xera, vg, gorseval, sabetha.
How is this top dps again?
Nike, I totally agree with you on the fact that condi ranger isn’t top DPS on anything and in top guilds it doesn’t matter. But in pugs and lesser groups, the output of a condi ranger laughs at any other class because the damage scales up very quickly compared to the effort put in compared to other DPS classes.
Oh how this has shifted. Previously for PUGs it was tempest or go home, when in reality very few pugs have any idea how to play tempest. Now a build is pretty strong and have a relatively low skill ceiling and that is the new problem!
Over the past year one thing I’ve learned in both PVE and PVP is the builds only go so far. At the meta level (i.e. meta for ele/necro/ranger/engi, etc), no build is bad, players are. The highest dps for your group (pending buffs) is likely the comp where people play the classes that they actually know how to play…not when they default to condi ranger.
I find it difficult to agree that torch is overpowered when condi-ranger is already weaker than many other classes.
Players seems to forget that Engineer provides a passive +150 condition damage buff to the area, which easily accounts for upwards of 4k DPS in a condi-subgroup – meaning you only really need to pull 29k personal DPS to keep up with even very good condi-ranger. I’d also argue that it’s about equally difficult to pull 29k on an engi compared to 33k on a condi-ranger.
Furthermore, condi-daredevil just absolutely destroys condi-ranger DPS at most fights and has a very similar rotation.
And lastly, Elementalist can outpace a condi-ranger extremely well at many encounters (VG/Gorse/Sloth/KC/Samarog etc). I don’t believe that you have to be a skilled Elementalist player to beat condi-rangers at VG/Sloth/KC/Samarog either.
I don’t join many pug raids, but I consistantly see condi-ranger being hamfisted into roles that make no sense just because it’s the flavour of the month right now. For example, joining a Deimos and having condi-rangers sit in the middle, ranging the boss with shortbow.
Basically, easy or not, how can a class be overpowered when it isn’t even best-in-slot for any encounter in the game right now?
I would argue 1 condi ranger is best in slot for VG due to entangle on the seekers. It won’t out DPS tempest due to low armor, but if the speed record on a boss includes the build I would argue that it is best in slot.
I find it difficult to agree that torch is overpowered when condi-ranger is already weaker than many other classes.
Players seems to forget that Engineer provides a passive +150 condition damage buff to the area, which easily accounts for upwards of 4k DPS in a condi-subgroup – meaning you only really need to pull 29k personal DPS to keep up with even very good condi-ranger. I’d also argue that it’s about equally difficult to pull 29k on an engi compared to 33k on a condi-ranger.
Furthermore, condi-daredevil just absolutely destroys condi-ranger DPS at most fights and has a very similar rotation.
And lastly, Elementalist can outpace a condi-ranger extremely well at many encounters (VG/Gorse/Sloth/KC/Samarog etc). I don’t believe that you have to be a skilled Elementalist player to beat condi-rangers at VG/Sloth/KC/Samarog either.
I don’t join many pug raids, but I consistantly see condi-ranger being hamfisted into roles that make no sense just because it’s the flavour of the month right now. For example, joining a Deimos and having condi-rangers sit in the middle, ranging the boss with shortbow.
Basically, easy or not, how can a class be overpowered when it isn’t even best-in-slot for any encounter in the game right now?
I would argue 1 condi ranger is best in slot for VG due to entangle on the seekers. It won’t out DPS tempest due to low armor, but if the speed record on a boss includes the build I would argue that it is best in slot.
That is a very fair point. Right now the fastest VG kill does make use of a condi-ranger.
I do have a gut feeling that it would be slightly more optimal to have the druids running entangle and instead run with 4 Ele’s for DPS. But that might cost some time at the split phase. I’d be really interested to see if 2:30 is possible to beat these days!
I find it difficult to agree that torch is overpowered when condi-ranger is already weaker than many other classes.
Players seems to forget that Engineer provides a passive +150 condition damage buff to the area, which easily accounts for upwards of 4k DPS in a condi-subgroup – meaning you only really need to pull 29k personal DPS to keep up with even very good condi-ranger. I’d also argue that it’s about equally difficult to pull 29k on an engi compared to 33k on a condi-ranger.
Furthermore, condi-daredevil just absolutely destroys condi-ranger DPS at most fights and has a very similar rotation.
And lastly, Elementalist can outpace a condi-ranger extremely well at many encounters (VG/Gorse/Sloth/KC/Samarog etc). I don’t believe that you have to be a skilled Elementalist player to beat condi-rangers at VG/Sloth/KC/Samarog either.
I don’t join many pug raids, but I consistantly see condi-ranger being hamfisted into roles that make no sense just because it’s the flavour of the month right now. For example, joining a Deimos and having condi-rangers sit in the middle, ranging the boss with shortbow.
Basically, easy or not, how can a class be overpowered when it isn’t even best-in-slot for any encounter in the game right now?
I would argue 1 condi ranger is best in slot for VG due to entangle on the seekers. It won’t out DPS tempest due to low armor, but if the speed record on a boss includes the build I would argue that it is best in slot.
That is a very fair point. Right now the fastest VG kill does make use of a condi-ranger.
I do have a gut feeling that it would be slightly more optimal to have the druids running entangle and instead run with 4 Ele’s for DPS. But that might cost some time at the split phase. I’d be really interested to see if 2:30 is possible to beat these days!
You are likely correct in that simply due to the fact that GoTL is way easier to keep up now versus when the 2:30 record was recorded. You likely don’t need the elite glyph for GoTL uptime and could probably use 2 condi druids with entangle. That being said, 2:30 is no slouch with a condi ranger so either way I’d consider condi ranger “meta/best in slot” on VG
Bosses condi ranger isn’t top dps on: cairn, overseer, samarog, deimos, sloth, kc, xera, vg, gorseval, sabetha.
How is this top dps again?
Nike, I totally agree with you on the fact that condi ranger isn’t top DPS on anything and in top guilds it doesn’t matter. But in pugs and lesser groups, the output of a condi ranger laughs at any other class because the damage scales up very quickly compared to the effort put in compared to other DPS classes.
Oh how this has shifted. Previously for PUGs it was tempest or go home, when in reality very few pugs have any idea how to play tempest. Now a build is pretty strong and have a relatively low skill ceiling and that is the new problem!
Over the past year one thing I’ve learned in both PVE and PVP is the builds only go so far. At the meta level (i.e. meta for ele/necro/ranger/engi, etc), no build is bad, players are. The highest dps for your group (pending buffs) is likely the comp where people play the classes that they actually know how to play…not when they default to condi ranger.
I’d say the main component it has shifted from Tempest to Cranger is because of DPS meters getting the go ahead. This has allowed many groups to finally see what is pulling the weight and what classes are not, basically based on how easy the rotation is. Why would I, as a raid leader, want to take a tempest or engi when I can take a cranger and watch it get 20k+ without worrying about how good the player is.
My problem with Ranger is the fact that it is the only healer you can take because of the buffs it provides, and the fact that it is practically the best DPS you can take as well in pugs because the easy of the rotation and how much damage it pulls. The other day I quickly geared a ranger and did Samarog. Screwing up the rotation so many times and still pulling 18k for a class I had never played before is a little over the top.
therefor ranger is overperforming therefor it should be nerfed lul
Condi Rangers are currently the top choice for dps in raids, not because they have the highest dps numbers (power ele scepter/warhorn or dagger/warhorn can beat those numbers easily) but because of the ease at which you can reach optimal DPS rotation with this build.
Compared to other classes, condi ranger is nothing special, condi warrior could easily beat condi ranger in terms of raw dps, and be on par with it if using a condi PS build, condi necros and reapers can easily outdps any other condition damage builds, all of this were it not because of this single skill:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bonfire
Set a fire around you, damaging and burning foes.
Damage (9x): 297 (0.9)
9 Burning (3s): 3537 DamageI do believe this single skill is what breaks condi ranger completely, you can reduce the cooldown by 20% by using the ambidexterity trait which reduces torch and dagger skills cooldowns, and even further by using the quickdraw trait which reduces the next used skill cooldown by 66%
Basically you can apply 9 stacks of burning after 5 seconds every 6.6 seconds (roughly), with a full viper set with nightmare runes you get 15k damage on that skill alone, which is a whooping 3k increase of dps by using it, and thus completely outshine every other condi build currently in the game, especially necros.
The problem is that it doesn’t make sense for rangers to have such a powerful skill in a single weapon, there isn’t a single trait or gear piece that boosts burning damage, yet this skill could possibly be the main source of DPS for the build.
All in all it feels like a vestige from the days before condition damage was relevant.
I’m pretty sure Engi Blowtorch is around 19k dmg on a 12 second cooldown, no?
Optimise [OP]
Basically you can apply 9 stacks of burning after 5 seconds every 6.6 seconds
Is it just me or are you just hating on something without knowing how the build/traits/rotation works?
You can’t do bonfire every 6.6 seconds cause of internal CD on quickdraw (and shortbow on other weapon set). First bonfire has 6.6s CD, after 20s CD, after that you can quickdraw your bonfire again which results in roughly a avarage CD of 13.3s (a bit more as you are probably on shortbow when bonfire goes off CD).
I don’t think bonfire is a OP skill, throw torch also isn’t a OP skill. Saying that torch is a OP weapon is just complete kitten imo.
The thing that is OP in my opinion is Quickdraw. Even though i think it is an OP trait i think that condi ranger is in a decent spot right now, a good option for most bosses but not the best option.
Another thing that makes condi ranger OP is the sylvari elite skill Take Root. This boosts the condi ranger’s damage with like 2k – 3k, which is so lame and stupid. If you are gonna hate on sth, then hate on this..
“Best” is relative. Perhaps it’s not best for doing speed runs with the top guilds. But it’s pretty kitten hard to beat condi ranger’s dps if you’re not in that league and it’s among the easiest dps classes to play. Perhaps only the thief is easier.
I find it difficult to agree that torch is overpowered when condi-ranger is already weaker than many other classes.
Players seems to forget that Engineer provides a passive +150 condition damage buff to the area, which easily accounts for upwards of 4k DPS in a condi-subgroup – meaning you only really need to pull 29k personal DPS to keep up with even very good condi-ranger. I’d also argue that it’s about equally difficult to pull 29k on an engi compared to 33k on a condi-ranger.
Furthermore, condi-daredevil just absolutely destroys condi-ranger DPS at most fights and has a very similar rotation.
And lastly, Elementalist can outpace a condi-ranger extremely well at many encounters (VG/Gorse/Sloth/KC/Samarog etc). I don’t believe that you have to be a skilled Elementalist player to beat condi-rangers at VG/Sloth/KC/Samarog either.
I don’t join many pug raids, but I consistantly see condi-ranger being hamfisted into roles that make no sense just because it’s the flavour of the month right now. For example, joining a Deimos and having condi-rangers sit in the middle, ranging the boss with shortbow.
Basically, easy or not, how can a class be overpowered when it isn’t even best-in-slot for any encounter in the game right now?
I would argue 1 condi ranger is best in slot for VG due to entangle on the seekers. It won’t out DPS tempest due to low armor, but if the speed record on a boss includes the build I would argue that it is best in slot.
That is a very fair point. Right now the fastest VG kill does make use of a condi-ranger.
I do have a gut feeling that it would be slightly more optimal to have the druids running entangle and instead run with 4 Ele’s for DPS. But that might cost some time at the split phase. I’d be really interested to see if 2:30 is possible to beat these days!
You are likely correct in that simply due to the fact that GoTL is way easier to keep up now versus when the 2:30 record was recorded. You likely don’t need the elite glyph for GoTL uptime and could probably use 2 condi druids with entangle. That being said, 2:30 is no slouch with a condi ranger so either way I’d consider condi ranger “meta/best in slot” on VG
So you have 3 Tempests in that composition and yet you consider condi Ranger “meta/best in slot”, because kitten logic.
He is “best in slot” while being out-DPSed by EVERY SINGLE Power DPS class out there? Which includes: Tempest, Guardian, Thief, even Power Eng!
And FYI, only 2 Entagles are needed in a “speedclear” tactic, you can do just as good with Engi.
“Best” is relative. Perhaps it’s not best for doing speed runs with the top guilds. But it’s pretty kitten hard to beat condi ranger’s dps if you’re not in that league and it’s among the easiest dps classes to play. Perhaps only the thief is easier.
And should the game be balanced around players that didn’t even bother to read their skill’s description, and are literally pressing random buttons?
“Best” is relative. Perhaps it’s not best for doing speed runs with the top guilds. But it’s pretty kitten hard to beat condi ranger’s dps if you’re not in that league and it’s among the easiest dps classes to play. Perhaps only the thief is easier.
Idk about d/d thief but staff thief is a lot harder to play than condi ranger. Condi ranger is so easy, because you dont have to worry about fully executing your auto attack chain and all your skills have enough casting time, that it is easy enough to not lose much dps because of pressing buttons too slowly (which is pretty much only a fresh air issue, maybe engi too, idk).
I am sure you can play condi ranger without knowing the rotation and still hit 30k dps just by making sure that you use t5 / sb2 after weapon swap and standing behind your tsrget. The remaining skills, you can just spam off cd.
(edited by Erzian.5218)
“Best” is relative. Perhaps it’s not best for doing speed runs with the top guilds. But it’s pretty kitten hard to beat condi ranger’s dps if you’re not in that league and it’s among the easiest dps classes to play. Perhaps only the thief is easier.
And should the game be balanced around players that didn’t even bother to read their skill’s description, and are literally pressing random buttons?
Trust me, I’m not pressing random buttons and I certainly have read my skill’s descriptions. I also went to practice my ele on the golem. I still usually get outdps-d by the condi ranger in our group. I also have one myself so I can compare the relative ease of getting certain dps numbers first-hand. No matter how you look at it, the ranger is way easier.
Idk about d/d thief but staff thief is a lot harder to play than condi ranger.
It’s harder to play optimal. But you can stick to autoattacking on staff and still get pretty decent dps. Even the ranger needs to put some effort to get the same numbers. Not a lot of it, just some.
“Best” is relative. Perhaps it’s not best for doing speed runs with the top guilds. But it’s pretty kitten hard to beat condi ranger’s dps if you’re not in that league and it’s among the easiest dps classes to play. Perhaps only the thief is easier.
And should the game be balanced around players that didn’t even bother to read their skill’s description, and are literally pressing random buttons?
Trust me, I’m not pressing random buttons and I certainly have read my skill’s descriptions. I also went to practice my ele on the golem. I still usually get outdps-d by the condi ranger in our group. I also have one myself so I can compare the relative ease of getting certain dps numbers first-hand. No matter how you look at it, the ranger is way easier.
I didn’t say you were pressing random buttons, I was talking about the average player, but if you are out-DPSed by a Ranger on every boss – you are doing something very wrong.
I make mistakes, like normal people do. The thing is, there are fewer mistakes you can make on a ranger. Pretty much you can only screw the Quickdraw of your Bonfire. It’s more forgiving, thus it loses less from mistakes.
Of course, there are bosses where we don’t use a condi ranger at all, and some where we do and I can pull a little ahead (e.g. Samarog).
I’m pretty sure Engi Blowtorch is around 19k dmg on a 12 second cooldown, no?
Plz no nerferino blowtorch.
I find it difficult to agree that torch is overpowered when condi-ranger is already weaker than many other classes.
Players seems to forget that Engineer provides a passive +150 condition damage buff to the area, which easily accounts for upwards of 4k DPS in a condi-subgroup – meaning you only really need to pull 29k personal DPS to keep up with even very good condi-ranger. I’d also argue that it’s about equally difficult to pull 29k on an engi compared to 33k on a condi-ranger.
Furthermore, condi-daredevil just absolutely destroys condi-ranger DPS at most fights and has a very similar rotation.
And lastly, Elementalist can outpace a condi-ranger extremely well at many encounters (VG/Gorse/Sloth/KC/Samarog etc). I don’t believe that you have to be a skilled Elementalist player to beat condi-rangers at VG/Sloth/KC/Samarog either.
I don’t join many pug raids, but I consistantly see condi-ranger being hamfisted into roles that make no sense just because it’s the flavour of the month right now. For example, joining a Deimos and having condi-rangers sit in the middle, ranging the boss with shortbow.
Basically, easy or not, how can a class be overpowered when it isn’t even best-in-slot for any encounter in the game right now?
I would argue 1 condi ranger is best in slot for VG due to entangle on the seekers. It won’t out DPS tempest due to low armor, but if the speed record on a boss includes the build I would argue that it is best in slot.
That is a very fair point. Right now the fastest VG kill does make use of a condi-ranger.
I do have a gut feeling that it would be slightly more optimal to have the druids running entangle and instead run with 4 Ele’s for DPS. But that might cost some time at the split phase. I’d be really interested to see if 2:30 is possible to beat these days!
You are likely correct in that simply due to the fact that GoTL is way easier to keep up now versus when the 2:30 record was recorded. You likely don’t need the elite glyph for GoTL uptime and could probably use 2 condi druids with entangle. That being said, 2:30 is no slouch with a condi ranger so either way I’d consider condi ranger “meta/best in slot” on VG
So you have 3 Tempests in that composition and yet you consider condi Ranger “meta/best in slot”, because kitten logic.
He is “best in slot” while being out-DPSed by EVERY SINGLE Power DPS class out there? Which includes: Tempest, Guardian, Thief, even Power Eng!
And FYI, only 2 Entagles are needed in a “speedclear” tactic, you can do just as good with Engi.
How is saying that condi ranger is “best in slot” on VG because it was used in the fastest kill yet to date “kitten logic”? It is the only logic! As long by best we mean fastest. If “best at” means something other than fastest in this context, then the discussion is completely different.
Also, power DPS is pretty irrelevant for that 4th DPS slot because you likely need a 3rd condi damage(DPS, condi war, condi druid, chrono) in order to kill red fast enough without significantly delaying the split phase. This would result in a slower overall kill time.
Until someone beats the current record without using condi ranger, which could very well happen, its best in slot on VG!
(edited by ButterPeanut.9746)
“Best” is relative. Perhaps it’s not best for doing speed runs with the top guilds. But it’s pretty kitten hard to beat condi ranger’s dps if you’re not in that league and it’s among the easiest dps classes to play. Perhaps only the thief is easier.
Idk about d/d thief but staff thief is a lot harder to play than condi ranger.
At optimal. If we’re not comparing optimal rotations however, but the easy ones, then to get similar dps results ranger needs to put in more effort. Not much more, but still you can’t beat pure autoattack rotation.
Until someone beats the current record without using condi ranger, which could very well happen, its best in slot on VG!
Just as every other class used in the same attempt?
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Until someone beats the current record without using condi ranger, which could very well happen, its best in slot on VG!
Just as every other class used in the same attempt?
Yes exactly. The original statement was simply that condi ranger wasn’t best in slot on any bosses, so why is it a problem? I simply provided an example where I believe that is an incorrect statement.
I’m pretty sure Engi Blowtorch is around 19k dmg on a 12 second cooldown, no?
Plz no nerferino blowtorch.
blowtorchino*
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