Torch on Rangers seems a bit overpowered.
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Why the hell do you care. I don’t play ranger and I couldn’t care less. I’m actually happy for them. Why do you care in what way another player reaches his high numbers? You can freely play whatever class you want and find fun. Why do you have issues with other players dealing damage?
You don’t raid do you? Rangers having good damage is not the problem. The problem is they are far above the rest, while also being far easier to play. This skill contributes so much to the damage that tuning it down a bit doesn’t hurt. At the moment they are pushing other condi classes away, and that is a problem.
You say you can freely play what you want, well you can’t in raids, unless ofcourse the other 9 people don’t mind having kitteneless guy around.
I’d like to see this skill nerfed, but what I rather see is other condi builds being brought to the same point.
Why the hell do you care. I don’t play ranger and I couldn’t care less. I’m actually happy for them. Why do you care in what way another player reaches his high numbers? You can freely play whatever class you want and find fun. Why do you have issues with other players dealing damage?
You don’t raid do you? Rangers having good damage is not the problem. The problem is they are far above the rest, while also being far easier to play.
That’s not really true, you know. The first part is definitely not true, and the second part is arguable (there are other classes that are equally easy to play while still having good enough dps).
This skill contributes so much to the damage that tuning it down a bit doesn’t hurt. At the moment they are pushing other condi classes away, and that is a problem.
No. Necro being overnerfed is a problem here, not the other way around.
but what I rather see is other condi builds being brought to the same point.
Now you’re talking.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Why the hell do you care. I don’t play ranger and I couldn’t care less. I’m actually happy for them. Why do you care in what way another player reaches his high numbers? You can freely play whatever class you want and find fun. Why do you have issues with other players dealing damage?
You don’t raid do you? Rangers having good damage is not the problem. The problem is they are far above the rest, while also being far easier to play. This skill contributes so much to the damage that tuning it down a bit doesn’t hurt. At the moment they are pushing other condi classes away, and that is a problem.
You say you can freely play what you want, well you can’t in raids, unless ofcourse the other 9 people don’t mind having kitteneless guy around.
I’d like to see this skill nerfed, but what I rather see is other condi builds being brought to the same point.
Except you’re wrong.
They’re not the highest dps and the classes that are behind them are within 1k to 2k dps benchmark lower.
Anet make Rev great again.
Why the hell do you care. I don’t play ranger and I couldn’t care less. I’m actually happy for them. Why do you care in what way another player reaches his high numbers? You can freely play whatever class you want and find fun. Why do you have issues with other players dealing damage?
You don’t raid do you? Rangers having good damage is not the problem. The problem is they are far above the rest, while also being far easier to play. This skill contributes so much to the damage that tuning it down a bit doesn’t hurt. At the moment they are pushing other condi classes away, and that is a problem.
You say you can freely play what you want, well you can’t in raids, unless ofcourse the other 9 people don’t mind having kitteneless guy around.
I’d like to see this skill nerfed, but what I rather see is other condi builds being brought to the same point.
Yes, I keep forgeting that we should nerf things because 5% of the playerbase think 2% of the game is ruined because of certain skill/build.
They’re not the highest dps and the classes that are behind them are within 1k to 2k dps benchmark lower.
Except you have to put twice the effort on another class to beat their dps. And in some cases you need to put more effort on another class to stay within 2k lower. It’s pretty obvious many players are phasing to condi rangers. They aren’t doing it because they suddenly liked the playstyle, which is exactly the same it was. They’re doing it because the build is OP. Maybe it’s not very OP, but it is clearly an outlier.
They’re not the highest dps and the classes that are behind them are within 1k to 2k dps benchmark lower.
Except you have to put twice the effort on another class to beat their dps.
That’s not really true, you know.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
It is and I know, for I play both.
I’m assuming a lot of people who want it nerfed don’t do a lot of raiding, because their not top dps, their not a super broken class, and on a fight with a lot of moving their dps is lower then most other classes.
Only engi and sc/wh ele has to put in effort for high DPS, every other class is pretty easy. Maybe necro too but that’s just because of broken combo fields.
You’ve got like condi warrior/condi thief that are almost if not just as good as ranger with just as easy rotations :/
Actually I think thief can beat ranger on a few bosses
FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN
It is and I know, for I play both.
Both what? There are 9 classes in the game, not two, you know.
Seriously, just look up the lazy versions of rotations for power engi and staff thief, for example. PS (both power and condi) have it easy as well (with condi having really respectable damage on top of important partywide buffs). Scepter/torch guardians are relatively easy as well. And I’m not even going to comment on condi mesmers…
Basically only eles and condi engi are left with complicated rotations now, without having the sufficiently good lower-effort ones.
Basically, for parity, you wouldn’t want to nerf rangers. You’d want to buff the condi necros (the scepter ones, not the gs kind, that build is a gimmick not really applicable to 99% of groups due to problems with condi fields) and make the ele rotations easier.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Basically only eles and condi engi are left with complicated rotations now, without having the sufficiently good lower-effort ones.
Not quite…
There is a simple rotation giving 33k+, so right about on par with condi ranger. The rotation is simply going from kit to kit using all the condi skills that are up at the time. The only ‘hard’ part is remembering to only do FT every 3 rotations when napalm is up. (rotation is simply using the 3 pistol skills, then mortar 2, then insert FT usage every 3 rotations here, then bomb 2 and 3 when up, then grenade 2, fill in with freeze/poison grenades or barrage/BoB if none are up just 1 skill until grenade 2 is up again and repeat rotation, in no way harder than the ranger rotation).
Likewise there’s an even easier rotation still capable of almost 30k using just 1 kit (grenade in this case). Hell, even a FT build can do 28k, not that it’s impressive but it sure surprised me.
It is and I know, for I play both.
Both what? There are 9 classes in the game, not two, you know.
Seriously, just look up the lazy versions of rotations for power engi and staff thief, for example. PS (both power and condi) have it easy as well (with condi having really respectable damage on top of important partywide buffs). Scepter/torch guardians are relatively easy as well. And I’m not even going to comment on condi mesmers…
Basically only eles and condi engi are left with complicated rotations now, without having the sufficiently good lower-effort ones.
Basically, for parity, you wouldn’t want to nerf rangers. You’d want to buff the condi necros (the scepter ones, not the gs kind, that build is a gimmick not really applicable to 99% of groups due to problems with condi fields) and make the ele rotations easier.
I main ele. And I don’t want my rotations easier, there are enough classes for that, including the ranger. One of the reasons I still prefer to play my ele is the way it plays and the rotations involved. I want, however, to have proper reward for harder rotations.
It is and I know, for I play both.
Both what? There are 9 classes in the game, not two, you know.
Seriously, just look up the lazy versions of rotations for power engi and staff thief, for example. PS (both power and condi) have it easy as well (with condi having really respectable damage on top of important partywide buffs). Scepter/torch guardians are relatively easy as well. And I’m not even going to comment on condi mesmers…
Basically only eles and condi engi are left with complicated rotations now, without having the sufficiently good lower-effort ones.
Basically, for parity, you wouldn’t want to nerf rangers. You’d want to buff the condi necros (the scepter ones, not the gs kind, that build is a gimmick not really applicable to 99% of groups due to problems with condi fields) and make the ele rotations easier.
I main ele. And I don’t want my rotations easier, there are enough classes for that, including the ranger. One of the reasons I still prefer to play my ele is the way it plays and the rotations involved. I want, however, to have proper reward for harder rotations.
Please don’t. Difficulty of execution should be a non-factor when it comes to balancing raw numbers, Elementalist is already rewarded through having better flexibility, support and cleave potential when playing a dps role.
It is and I know, for I play both.
Both what? There are 9 classes in the game, not two, you know.
Seriously, just look up the lazy versions of rotations for power engi and staff thief, for example. PS (both power and condi) have it easy as well (with condi having really respectable damage on top of important partywide buffs). Scepter/torch guardians are relatively easy as well. And I’m not even going to comment on condi mesmers…
Basically only eles and condi engi are left with complicated rotations now, without having the sufficiently good lower-effort ones.
Basically, for parity, you wouldn’t want to nerf rangers. You’d want to buff the condi necros (the scepter ones, not the gs kind, that build is a gimmick not really applicable to 99% of groups due to problems with condi fields) and make the ele rotations easier.
I main ele. And I don’t want my rotations easier, there are enough classes for that, including the ranger. One of the reasons I still prefer to play my ele is the way it plays and the rotations involved. I want, however, to have proper reward for harder rotations.
Please don’t. Difficulty of execution should be a non-factor when it comes to balancing raw numbers, Elementalist is already rewarded through having better flexibility, support and cleave potential when playing a dps role.
a non factor ?
I’m sorry, it should absolutely be a factor alongside everything else mentioned. Cleave/Support/Durability all of it needs to play a role in balancing otherwise we end up back with the lolnecro or lolele meta’s again.
Please don’t. Difficulty of execution should be a non-factor when it comes to balancing raw numbers, Elementalist is already rewarded through having better flexibility, support and cleave potential when playing a dps role.
Of course it should be a factor. More difficulty = more risk of mistakes = more punishing. Obviously it should be more rewarding to balance that out.
They’re not the highest dps and the classes that are behind them are within 1k to 2k dps benchmark lower.
Except you have to put twice the effort on another class to beat their dps. And in some cases you need to put more effort on another class to stay within 2k lower. It’s pretty obvious many players are phasing to condi rangers. They aren’t doing it because they suddenly liked the playstyle, which is exactly the same it was. They’re doing it because the build is OP. Maybe it’s not very OP, but it is clearly an outlier.
Not really. The other classes don’t have very complicated rotations. Condi thief rotation is even easier and is less than 1k behind ranger.
Anet make Rev great again.
They’re not the highest dps and the classes that are behind them are within 1k to 2k dps benchmark lower.
Except you have to put twice the effort on another class to beat their dps. And in some cases you need to put more effort on another class to stay within 2k lower. It’s pretty obvious many players are phasing to condi rangers. They aren’t doing it because they suddenly liked the playstyle, which is exactly the same it was. They’re doing it because the build is OP. Maybe it’s not very OP, but it is clearly an outlier.
Not really. The other classes don’t have very complicated rotations. Condi thief rotation is even easier and is less than 1k behind ranger.
condi thief on certain occasions can pull way ahead of condi ranger iv heard of condi theif having 38k dps lol
They’re not the highest dps and the classes that are behind them are within 1k to 2k dps benchmark lower.
Except you have to put twice the effort on another class to beat their dps. And in some cases you need to put more effort on another class to stay within 2k lower. It’s pretty obvious many players are phasing to condi rangers. They aren’t doing it because they suddenly liked the playstyle, which is exactly the same it was. They’re doing it because the build is OP. Maybe it’s not very OP, but it is clearly an outlier.
Not really. The other classes don’t have very complicated rotations. Condi thief rotation is even easier and is less than 1k behind ranger.
Different playstyles for different players. Not taking difficulty into account breaks the risk/reward of the hard to play classes. For most of the players, who tend to make mistakes often, it becomes severely punishing to pick a harder class. It’s poor balance.
About the balancing of elementalist and complexity of rotations:
Because the game isn’t only raids. All that matters isn’t reduced to how much damage you can do to semi-stationery targets. And even if that was the case, the Tempest brings utility through skills or traits that actually contributes to fights with minimal to small dps loss.
Factoring damage output only is a mistake because there are things that the Elementalist, or Guardians, or Necros, can accomplish much easier, there places their value at different tiers for different types of encounters, specially outside raids.
And complexity of play shouln’t be the part in balance dictating that the harder class to play sould be the best, balance doesn’t work like this, because if you’re considering the highest skilled possible players with very rare mistakes this would create the same issue in terms of balance. The game should be balanced with that in mind, not around some players with god complex that dread that one class can get to the level of the one they mastered in one aspect of the game with less effort,
And regardless of what is top tier people will play it and everyone will kitten about class x dominating because qT said so.
Tempest “utility” is vastly overrated. All it brings is cleave. For PvE, none of its other strong suits matter.
Also balancing around the top-skilled players is balancing for 5% of the playerbase. If that much. It creates flavor choices for said 5%. Whereas proper balancing for the middle-ground players creates a choice with actual meaning – play safe and easy or bet on your own skills with a harder to play class for a greater reward. For a much greater number of players.
Also the days of following blindly the “qT optimal” are more or less over. People now have dps meters and can see for themselves that suboptimal easy choices are often much better than “optimal” hard ones. So don’t give me that kitten about bandwagonning. It was relevant months ago, it’s not now.
i like hkw you imply that the top 5 % can play these builds
Also balancing around the top-skilled players is balancing for 5% of the playerbase. If that much. It creates flavor choices for said 5%. Whereas proper balancing for the middle-ground players creates a choice with actual meaning – play safe and easy or bet on your own skills with a harder to play class for a greater reward. For a much greater number of players.
You seem to be really unclear about what you want, so i’m going to point the problem to you.
Balancing around a middle-ground players preclude greater reward for greater skill. If that is allowed, but not balanced for, then it is going to create significant problems at the top skill level.
Consider what will happen if there’s that one class/build with much more difficult rotation/gameplay. If the content will be balanced around the mid-tier classes/builds, then everyone playing that class will find the content significantly easier.
Now, you might say that’s the reward for playing better. Consider now raids (basically, the content this topic started with). The content meant to be challenging, and designed for that top 5% players. If you balance them around those mid-tier classes, it will become easy (and definitely not challenging) for the target group. If you balance them around that high risk/reward build/class however, you will force everyone into playing that class when doing said content.
Both options are equally bad. And that’s why any balance attempts must include the “perfect execution” results as well.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Also balancing around the top-skilled players is balancing for 5% of the playerbase. If that much. It creates flavor choices for said 5%. Whereas proper balancing for the middle-ground players creates a choice with actual meaning – play safe and easy or bet on your own skills with a harder to play class for a greater reward. For a much greater number of players.
You seem to be really unclear about what you want, so i’m going to point the problem to you.
Balancing around a middle-ground players preclude greater reward for greater skill. If that is allowed, but not balanced for, then it is going to create significant problems at the top skill level.
Consider what will happen if there’s that one class/build with much more difficult rotation/gameplay. If the content will be balanced around the mid-tier classes/builds, then everyone playing that class will find the content significantly easier.
Now, you might say that’s the reward for playing better. Consider now raids (basically, the content this topic started with). The content meant to be challenging, and designed for that top 5% players. If you balance them around those mid-tier classes, it will become easy (and definitely not challenging) for the target group. If you balance them around that high risk/reward build/class however, you will force everyone into playing that class when doing said content.
Both options are equally bad. And that’s why any balance attempts must include the “perfect execution” results as well.
Really? Raids are balanced for the top 5%? Then how do they manage to kill bosses with 5 players? Or wearing greens? Get serious please.
Giving greater reward for harder builds will change nothing for the top players. If they play the optimal builds they’ll just speedrun the wings a bit faster. It doesn’t matter for anyone. They can still pick an easier build and cruise through the wings, it’s not like they need the extra dps. It only changes things for the players of lower skill, giving them the same “easy or hard” choice.
Maybe you’re not aware, but the raiding community is really small compared to the other areas of the game. And the average raider skill is usually significantly higher than the people who don’t raid, specially among the ones who can run full clears weekly.
Just because so,e are the top 1% or maybe even 0.01% can do some impressive stuff it doesn’t mean the game isn’t balanced expecting a certain threshold of performance as most of that stuff is more from running very specific builds and amazing gameplay outside of how much dps people can squeeze. Thing is, these things impact performance so much in this game that you can tell a good Ranger apart from an average one even if they are getting similar dps numbers, you know, stuff like not stepping on oils or throwing bombs properly…
Really? Raids are balanced for the top 5%? Then how do they manage to kill bosses with 5 players? Or wearing greens? Get serious please.
I am serious. People that can do feats like the ones you described are not top 5%. Possibly not even top 1%. We’re talking here about much smaller groups.
Yes, the skill disparity at the top can also be big.
By the way, if you want to make raids easier in general, i’m all for that, but you really should be clear about it.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Not at all, I just want difficulty to be better reflected in final dps numbers so you have an actual reason to pick a hard to play build instead of autoattack staff thief for instance.
Not at all, I just want difficulty to be better reflected in final dps numbers so you have an actual reason to pick a hard to play build instead of autoattack staff thief for instance.
If you don’t want to make the encounters relatively easy, then there’s only two possible outcomes of your wish. One, the encounter becomes easy (and thus boring) for those that can play that harder build, or two, staff thieves will become useless for that encounter. Or possibly both, if you balance that badly (as Anet is known to do).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
First of all, the encounters are already easy for the people who can play the hard builds properly. This point is moot.
Second, I don’t think raids were ever meant to be doable by just autoattacking. The staff thief needs a fair bit of its dps shifted out of the auto, but that’s another story.
But as it is currently, the relative ease of reaching certain dps numbers on several builds, condi ranger included, makes the harder builds pretty much useless for the people who aren’t already good with them. Worse, they have no incentive to get good at playing them. Why spend hours in learning something to get the same results you’re already getting, only with more effort?
Stuff like low mans or in crap gear can happen just like arah solo were a thing pve in gw2 is very much skill based rather than hear based. Much more than any other mmo iv seen.
I said this in another thread and it’s relevant here:
More important than anything is that classes can pull comparable numbers within their own playstyle regardless of the difficulty of that rotation. If condition Engineer could pull 35k DPS “just because it’s hard to play” and everything else could never go higher than 25k, then you’d create a situation where you’re only ever realistically allowed to play Engineer in the meta and you’d hurt build and class diversity substantially. If people enjoy the challenge, they can play their Engineer right now and enjoy that playstyle in raids without infringing on the ability for others to play other things. It’s good the way it is.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
If you need hard vs easy build balance then there is a solution:
Make hard builds able to do more utility.
How it works is that dps demands optimized rotation.
Utility demands using skills when the context of the fight calls for it.
If you blow through your utilities going for optimum dps you won’t be of much use when situation calls for it.
If you save your utilities for the right moment your dps will suffer but you will be useful in another way when it counts.
You can do more on one character, but don’t immediately put others outta game. Even if you play right there’s still pros and cons to your style (full dps, vs more supporty).
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