Guild Wars 2

I love play as support sometimes and in gw2 you can make very good support build for almost every class, BUT they’re completely useless. Everything except high lvl fractals could be just zerged with 5 DPS or 4 dps+mesmer/guardian (Or just 5 warriors, i did it few times, i finish my Dungeon Master with 5 warrior party actually) and this is awful.

DPS groups use support. They just dont waste stats or excessive amounts of trait points on it.

And, even high level fractals get done by 5 DPS groups.

DPS groups use more support than PUG groups, so I have no idea what you’re talking about OP.

come on guys, the OP may not be totally aware of the intricacies of dungeon speedrun groups but at least they’re advocating “DPS über alles.” that’s a far cry more advanced than 95% of pugs out there.

be nice, educate.

p.s. or wait maybe I misread and they’re not advocating, they’re complaining. In that case, fire away, both barrels.

OP probably never played with an organized group, so maybe he still have the average pug mentality (Warriors are the gods of dps, 100b or go home, etc) and is not aware of all supportish stuff any average group uses.

Congratulations OP. You’ve discovered the DPS meta that the game currently is in. Sometimes I just feel like rerolling all my classes into berzerker gear, but I don’t only because I like variety even if I must whittle down the health of all the HP balloon bosses in the game.

Banners – Support
Empower Allies – Support
Might stacks – Support
Vuln stacks – Support
Swiftness for skips – Support
Reflects – Support

Wat?

Interrupt Lupi when he’s doing aoe in p2 – Support

Interrupt is CC :P

Semantics.

Aegis – Support
Condi cleanse – Support

I’ll just mention this again: You can still use support abilities in any gear. Healing and condition damage scale terribly for PvE.

You guys are missing the point: he wants to sit in the back of the room using auto attack watching red bars while clicking his utilities every now and then. A melee dps build with well timed utility skills is not the do-nothing durdle experience he wants.

IIRC correctly, I think I saw the OP make one of the numerous “TAkitten(insert text implying ineptness)” threads a while back. So yeah…

Organized groups use support but not support stats which is kittening stupid since those stats are on gear. Not the groups fault but a key design fault. Lets not get this mistaken most organized groups run 5 dps and just happen to have a class or 2 that has support built in that doesn’t require an sort of stat investment. You are not playing support. You are DPSing and tossing in support when it is absolutely needed. OP has point but it is not a community problem.

TheGuy.3568:

Organized groups use support but not support stats which is kittening stupid since those stats are on gear. Not the groups fault but a key design fault. Lets not get this mistaken most organized groups run 5 dps and just happen to have a class or 2 that has support built in that doesn’t require an sort of stat investment. You are not playing support. You are DPSing and tossing in support when it is absolutely needed. OP has point but it is not a community problem.

So, we’re supporting, but not supporting?

Bright.9160:

TheGuy.3568:

Organized groups use support but not support stats which is kittening stupid since those stats are on gear. Not the groups fault but a key design fault. Lets not get this mistaken most organized groups run 5 dps and just happen to have a class or 2 that has support built in that doesn’t require an sort of stat investment. You are not playing support. You are DPSing and tossing in support when it is absolutely needed. OP has point but it is not a community problem.

So, we’re supporting, but not supporting?

Basically. Nothing all that complex about it. The builds are designed to maximize DPS while tossing in support as needed none of which requires support stats. There is no trade off and in many cases while limited support makes runs smother it is not necessary. Like I said it is not a community issue and if the truth is not particularly nice to hear then take that up with Anet. I got no issues with players doing whats right for the team but the complaint is valid.

Edit:

Your question might read better like this because that how responded to it lol.

So we are supporting but not support?

In response to your actual question. Not answering that question as it makes no sense.

I advocate the use of a build that contains supportive traits. Check my sig.

Look, it is true that most builds are “dps” oriented. But it is also true that we all throw in the necessary support, and the necessary tanking.
Actually if you look at traditional mmos, you get groups made of 3 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer.
Here in gw2 the 5 members of the group are 60% dps, 20% survivability and 20% support. I think it’s only logical that we invest most in our characteristic that pays out the most.

So your are right, it is a design problem. How can Anet fix this? Make us receive more damage, make the mobs sensitive and able to do controls, make the mobs have less health. If what I just said sound like a PvP encounter it is intentional: a perfect PvE world is a world where mobs do not need to have “unfair advantages” to be challenging.

Zelyhn.8069:

Here in gw2 the 5 members of the group are 60% dps, 20% survivability and 20% support. I think it’s only logical that we invest most in our characteristic that pays out the most.

At the end of the day that is still 5 players running full zerk gear. That really needs to get through. No matter how support your build is that is still 5 players running the same stats on the most expensive part of any build with the most opportunity cost. So while your break down (those percentages came out of no where so…..) might have some truth the situation is that DPS is king in dungeon meta.

Dungeons are just another way to get loot so I do not think this is major issue besides farming which has been nixed. Not really worth a full blown debate over as much of the pop has moved onto champs for their farming and it provides exactly what is missing from dungeons. An open door policy (can not be kicked or kept from content based on the community and it views). When it comes to the most important part of most players reasoning for doing anything (the loot) dungeons are far down on the list. This is a good thing. Much like Teq until the contents difficulty is boosted, stats worth bringing diversified, and the other blaring issue (kicking) is dealt with there isn’t much room to complain or demand changes. Anet already provided an alternate more lucrative route.

haviz.1340:

Interrupt Lupi when he’s doing aoe in p2 – Support

Why would you want to interrupt him? Letting him do it is how you kill him.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

haviz.1340:

Interrupt Lupi when he’s doing aoe in p2 – Support

Why would you want to interrupt him? Letting him do it is how you kill him.

Yea, the best support is to rupt him after he casts his AoE life drain so he starts doing other attacks while the effect still remains

TheGuy.3568:

If somebody was only dps and had no support then those dps groups would have 0 might stacks, never have fury, use 0 of the class specific buff mechanics, attempt all skips without swiftness, never use vulnerability, etc. They would attain substantially lower dps. Support isn’t just about healing/protection/aegis, you’re confusing defensive support with support in general.

You cant call stacking might and vulnerbility with every Autoattack support. Only if you have to invest traits/sigil/runes… for support we have the skills 2-0 and F1-4 and on 1 only damage no bonus effects only finisher.

In my oppinion, all the autoattacks needs to be reworked and get rid of conditions, CC, boons and heals. except of bleeds and burns, because these are needed for Conditionbuilds and dont play a support role. When this change is made, then we can start talking about support.
I would go a step further and give the banners a health bar, making them a tactical element and not “fire and forget”.

I runs DPS Warrior and Guardian and both support as well. Be it the banners or the Guardian’s boons spamming.

“The best defence is a good offence”

“Da best d-fens be AFK from 1k range swaggin in dat cleric gear” – Lil’ Wayne

Lil’ Wayne cannot count to 1k
I mean he knows 1a 1b 1c but he’d never make it to 1k

Zelyhn.8069:

Lil’ Wayne cannot count to 1k
I mean he knows 1a 1b 1c but he’d never make it to 1k

He counts the fat stacks all day.

Player Character.9467:

TheGuy.3568:

If somebody was only dps and had no support then those dps groups would have 0 might stacks, never have fury, use 0 of the class specific buff mechanics, attempt all skips without swiftness, never use vulnerability, etc. They would attain substantially lower dps. Support isn’t just about healing/protection/aegis, you’re confusing defensive support with support in general.

Not really. Many classes can stack might on their own and there are very few things outside the regular build needed to do this. You are over exaggerating things for effect. No might? No fury? (your’e joking right?) For example I could run full dps nades on my engineer and still give high vulnerability stacks some swiftness and some might. Same with my warrior. Same with elementalist etc etc. Offensive boons fly around but you are correct some builds excel at giving them and still at the end of the day they invest nothing into support stats. Now do you understand? You are confusing support with DPS boosting a common mistake but a mistake none the less.

BTW the example you give is not support but maximizing DPS. A DPS group maximizes DPS (obviously). Even swiftness (which moves you to targets faster over the course of a dungeon) adds to the speed. If you consider might stacks support you need to widen your scope. That DPS tunnel vision has many of you blind to the bigger picture.

to summarize do not put lipstick on the DPS pig and call it support.

Edit:

It needs to be reiterated that support isn’t really necessary (which you actually illustrate in your post). It isn’t something to get angry or argumentative over. No one runs it because it is inefficient. That is a fact not a complaint. That is the situation. As long as you have yourselves convinced that the little support you bring to your DPS build is equal to running a support build then no progress can be made. Like I said before in terms of what players need the dungeon community is fine as is. If players need gear there are better and faster ways to get it. Same with loot and karma.

It must have its own definition. What shall we call it? Eliting?

That’s not a bad idea. I like it.

What about autoattacking? or stacking before the fight starts?

People act like “don’t bring team buffs that you don’t need” is something unique to GW2. In any MMO I’ve ever played, you bring as much defense/healing as you need to survive and max the rest out as damage and offensive buffs/enemy debuffs. Anything more than the bare minimum in defense and healing that could otherwise be allocated towards offense means you’re prolonging the fight for no reason.

The only thing more unique to GW2 is the fact that every class has built-in damage avoidance, avoidance being far superior to damage mitigation. That leaves huge amounts of room to bring more offense. Thus: zerk gear, offensive buffs. Nothing else needed.

Remove all gear stats except Berserker from PvE and that would clear up any confusion people seem to have with this game. Support comes from weapon choice, utilities and traits, the gear you’re wearing is irrelevant. Whilst I understand where TheGuy is coming from and how this shouldn’t be the case, but gear variation is ultimately different levels of ‘training wheels’ until you’re experienced enough to go full zerk, and to be honest I quite like this system. I mean have you seen a <500 AP player actually pull off full Berserker well? And by ‘well’ I mean not camping at ranged/CoF1.

TheGuy.3568:

Player Character.9467:

TheGuy.3568:

If somebody was only dps and had no support then those dps groups would have 0 might stacks, never have fury, use 0 of the class specific buff mechanics, attempt all skips without swiftness, never use vulnerability, etc. They would attain substantially lower dps. Support isn’t just about healing/protection/aegis, you’re confusing defensive support with support in general.

Not really. Many classes can stack might on their own and there are very few things outside the regular build needed to do this. You are over exaggerating things for effect. No might? No fury? (your’e joking right?) For example I could run full dps nades on my engineer and still give high vulnerability stacks some swiftness and some might. Same with my warrior. Same with elementalist etc etc. Offensive boons fly around but you are correct some builds excel at giving them and still at the end of the day they invest nothing into support stats. Now do you understand? You are confusing support with DPS boosting a common mistake but a mistake none the less.

BTW the example you give is not support but maximizing DPS. A DPS group maximizes DPS (obviously). Even swiftness (which moves you to targets faster over the course of a dungeon) adds to the speed. If you consider might stacks support you need to widen your scope. That DPS tunnel vision has many of you blind to the bigger picture.

to summarize do not put lipstick on the DPS pig and call it support.

Edit:

It needs to be reiterated that support isn’t really necessary (which you actually illustrate in your post). It isn’t something to get angry or argumentative over. No one runs it because it is inefficient. That is a fact not a complaint. That is the situation. As long as you have yourselves convinced that the little support you bring to your DPS build is equal to running a support build then no progress can be made. Like I said before in terms of what players need the dungeon community is fine as is. If players need gear there are better and faster ways to get it. Same with loot and karma.

Boost – to raise, lift from below, push upward or ahead
Support – to bear the weight of, especially from below

Hmmm….

TheGuy.3568:

If you consider might stacks support you need to widen your scope. That DPS tunnel vision has many of you blind to the bigger picture.

I need to broaden my view because I consider offensive support, defensive support, and auxiliary support to all be support while you only consider healing/aegis/protection to be support?…

I think the OP is talking about healing power and tanking specs. Not banners.

Dolan.3071:

Remove all gear stats except Berserker from PvE and that would clear up any confusion people seem to have with this game. Support comes from weapon choice, utilities and traits, the gear you’re wearing is irrelevant. Whilst I understand where TheGuy is coming from and how this shouldn’t be the case, but gear variation is ultimately different levels of ‘training wheels’ until you’re experienced enough to go full zerk, and to be honest I quite like this system. I mean have you seen a <500 AP player actually pull off full Berserker well? And by ‘well’ I mean not camping at ranged/CoF1.

Small question:
Why didn’t ANet then use PvP Armor in WvW and invented all that new armor stat combinations especially for PvE/WvW?
Put in different materials for crafting different armor, when, with your logic, only one is needed? And so on and so forth…

I mean you are right, most of the support comes from your weapon and skills. That is a true. But there are also a lot of traits that synergies with support builds.

Beside Zerker gear, there are stats that increase boon duration and healing power. But instead of helping your team with that you make fights just longer. On one hand that support might be needed in longer fights but it is way more effective with a full DPS group.

Anet had to cater to casuals. Doesnt mean the gear is good just because its in the game.

unleashed.8679:

Dolan.3071:

Remove all gear stats except Berserker from PvE and that would clear up any confusion people seem to have with this game. Support comes from weapon choice, utilities and traits, the gear you’re wearing is irrelevant. Whilst I understand where TheGuy is coming from and how this shouldn’t be the case, but gear variation is ultimately different levels of ‘training wheels’ until you’re experienced enough to go full zerk, and to be honest I quite like this system. I mean have you seen a <500 AP player actually pull off full Berserker well? And by ‘well’ I mean not camping at ranged/CoF1.

Small question:
Why didn’t ANet then use PvP Armor in WvW and invented all that new armor stat combinations especially for PvE/WvW?
Put in different materials for crafting different armor, when, with your logic, only one is needed? And so on and so forth…

So your logic is “it’s there therefore it’s all equal”? Do you approach buying a car the same way?

Where did I say that all has to be equal? Every armor should have it’s pros and cons and one is probably a bit better combination. But right now Zerker gear is way over the top. Because of the dodge and all the blocks/reflects in the game there is no downside on going full offensive. It is even better to go full dmg because fights get easier because of it.

Not easier, just shorter.

You’d be surprised how horribly a full team of Zerkers can go at the smallest mistakes. A bad pull, bad RNG, lag spike and you could very well cause your team to wipe. That’s why it’s so dangerous to add PuGs to speed clear groups, because they can single handedly bring the whole group down.
But as I said before I approve of the current set up, if you can’t dodge, can’t block, then you’re not going to last very long in Zerker gear, so the players who can do it should be able to reap the benefits, E.g melting bosses in seconds.
I’m really overstating how hard it is to go Zerk, but then I go PuG some dungeons and see just how many people could never ever do it :P

unleashed.8679:

Where did I say that all has to be equal? Every armor should have it’s pros and cons and one is probably a bit better combination. But right now Zerker gear is way over the top. Because of the dodge and all the blocks/reflects in the game there is no downside on going full offensive. It is even better to go full dmg because fights get easier because of it.

That’s because this game plays a lot more like dark souls than it plays like all the terrible mmo stuff that came before. Too bad they didn’t copy the boss and environment design from DS though.

Healing builds are working pretty well. Might kill slower but works wonder if you see the whole party are almost always full hp at all times.

BBMouse.6510:

Healing builds are working pretty well. Might kill slower but works wonder if you see the whole party are almost always full hp at all times.

healing builds “work” in the same way that a yugo “works” compared to a maserati

Broadicea.8294:

BBMouse.6510:

Healing builds are working pretty well. Might kill slower but works wonder if you see the whole party are almost always full hp at all times.

healing builds “work” in the same way that a yugo “works” compared to a maserati

My spoon also “works” as a knife.

Player Character.9467:

Broadicea.8294:

BBMouse.6510:

Healing builds are working pretty well. Might kill slower but works wonder if you see the whole party are almost always full hp at all times.

healing builds “work” in the same way that a yugo “works” compared to a maserati

My spoon also “works” as a knife.

It’s quite funny that you say this, because 90% of the time, I only use 1 piece of cutlery when having a meal. It’s either only a fork, or only a spoon, and I use both as a knife as well, which drives my gf insane.

Fork/spoon = very good lazy mans knife.

You don’t eat fish with a knife.
Trust me, I’m French.