Guild Wars 2

So you know the classic Dead DPS = no DPS? Well here is another thing that you should keep in mind that I feel not alot of people want to admit. Just because you are running meta builds, it doesn’t mean your DPS is good. In fact if you are some one that pugs, chances are your meta build DPS is crap. Why is it crap?
Well
1: the DPS rotation complicated and you are just can’t be bothered to practice that.
2: the build requires you to stay in melee most of the time and you are probably ranging because you fear dead DPS = no DPS.
3: The meta build may be dependent on buffs/support from other classes which your group doesn’t have.
So how do you improve on your dps if you are this type of player? Run a random build that will up your DPS by experimenting and using a DPS meter as a way to gauge your DPS vs the group. And when some one trashes your “kitten build” you can justify it with the DPS meter. Like for example in a random fractal group which we kept dying to the boss, people blamed my P/P teef build because its not meta and only scrubs use p/p right? I pointed out my DPS was literaly 2x the next highest, shuts them up instantly. /rant

1. Applies to any build and yes, some dps numbers will be easier to achieve on certain builds than others.

2. Again more of an issue of learn to play than the actual build.

3. True some builds will scale better with boons and buffs from other classes.

I get you want to vent, but who are your suggestions aimed at?

The non-meta player,
- who struggles in group content,
- who has enough knowledge to make their own build,
- yet lacks the desire to in any way test their build,
- but still runs a dps meter?

Seems very niche to me.

As far as fractal groups, I highly doubt most people run meta builds from the dps I’ve seen. From 5k dps necromancers in T4 to similar results on other classes I doubt many people take T4 seriously enough to bother.

I don’t think anybody was ever denying that. If you can demonstrably proof that you’re doing good work, nobody will question the theorycrafting behind that. That’s why I would always rather have a P/P thief who actually survives and contributes in my party than some tryhard pleb who looked up a build on qT site and thinks he’s instantly good, despite hugging floor 99% time.

That is why I never create or join FotM parties that are too restrictive with classes or builds. I am fine with people playing literally anything, as long as they meaningfully contribute.

EcoRI.9273:

Like for example in a random fractal group which we kept dying to the boss, people blamed my P/P teef build because its not meta and only scrubs use p/p right? I pointed out my DPS was literaly 2x the next highest, shuts them up instantly. /rant

I’ve started in such pugs groups too from time to time then I realized I don’t want to spend more than one hour for my fractal dailes so I left the party after few minutes.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

I don’t think anybody was ever denying that. If you can demonstrably proof that you’re doing good work, nobody will question the theorycrafting behind that. That’s why I would always rather have a P/P thief who actually survives and contributes in my party than some tryhard pleb who looked up a build on qT site and thinks he’s instantly good, despite hugging floor 99% time.

That is why I never create or join FotM parties that are too restrictive with classes or builds. I am fine with people playing literally anything, as long as they meaningfully contribute.

Well the meta is in no way the best way to go, they have their flaws, usually you get a basis from them, at the same time though it keeps people from figuring out there own builds, also I think if you are not having fun with the build you will perform more poorly vs a build you really enjoy.

A build is bad if the person running it doesn’t know how to make it work properly or if they don’t know how to survive using it. But, that’s irrelevant — no one deliberately chooses to run a bad build (except maybe for Schlitz and Wiggles).

So it’s not possible to offer unsolicited generic advice about builds — you need to know the target audience and they need to be asking for advice or at least willing to listen.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

I I am fine with people playing literally anything, as long as they meaningfully contribute.

Absolutely. I’d rephrase it as “I’m fine with people playing whatever they like, as long as they understand how to make it work in the context of our current task.”

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

A build is bad if the person running it doesn’t know how to make it work properly or if they don’t know how to survive using it. But, that’s irrelevant — no one deliberately chooses to run a bad build (except maybe for Schlitz and Wiggles).

So it’s not possible to offer unsolicited generic advice about builds — you need to know the target audience and they need to be asking for advice or at least willing to listen.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

I I am fine with people playing literally anything, as long as they meaningfully contribute.

Absolutely. I’d rephrase it as “I’m fine with people playing whatever they like, as long as they understand how to make it work in the context of our current task.”

This.

I think what most people do not understand is, meta builds should be viewed as guidlines. In a way they show what peak performance and optimisation can do.

If you decide to go off meta you will likely take a hit in best possible performance but might gain ease-of-use, more fun and/or different role options.

Now obviously this will vary greatly between what gets changed. If you change some traits or skills here and there the difference might be negligable or minor. If you start exchanging entire pieces of gear for other stats results will vary greatly.

A DPS Meta build is still better if you are 80% of it dead compared to a kittenty nomad or PVT geared player. So, even if you play bad you still do more than some shiny bearbows out there.

Also a l2p issue. etc. But you have some points. In the end it depends what your group wants, what content you want to do and to adapt. Generally the meta builds show a guidline of ideals but that can be tweaked. You have some breathing room anyway; some people do undermanned raids as low as 1 person

EcoRI.9273:

So you know the classic Dead DPS = no DPS? Well here is another thing that you should keep in mind that I feel not alot of people want to admit. Just because you are running meta builds, it doesn’t mean your DPS is good. In fact if you are some one that pugs, chances are your meta build DPS is crap. Why is it crap?
Well
1: the DPS rotation complicated and you are just can’t be bothered to practice that.
2: the build requires you to stay in melee most of the time and you are probably ranging because you fear dead DPS = no DPS.
3: The meta build may be dependent on buffs/support from other classes which your group doesn’t have.
So how do you improve on your dps if you are this type of player? Run a random build that will up your DPS by experimenting and using a DPS meter as a way to gauge your DPS vs the group. And when some one trashes your “kitten build” you can justify it with the DPS meter. Like for example in a random fractal group which we kept dying to the boss, people blamed my P/P teef build because its not meta and only scrubs use p/p right? I pointed out my DPS was literaly 2x the next highest, shuts them up instantly. /rant

I agree with you that dps meters finally show that folks can do better dps with a built designed for their playstyle wich is simply more fun and less ‘dead dps’.

However there are more factors of the meta builds you might wanna consider. In your case you’re missing a lot of ‘bar breaking’ abilities if you choose to stay at range. This can hinder your group enormously in some fights. So while you have your high dps you might still loose in other ways.

Also keep that in mind before ranting that you have high dps.

Kind of depends on the context we are talking about. There are meta builds and there are meta builds. There are none meta build and there are none meta builds.
Let’s compare two low damage none meta builds with eachother:
How about Magi druid and a PVT Bearbow ranger? Both aren’t meta, one is vastly superior in Fractals, however.
You always take a alive mid to low tier damage dealer over a dead top damage dealer. But you also take an alive top damage dealer over an alive mid tier or low tier damage dealer.

Do what you have to. All though, you should always go for supportive builds over defensive ones. It is far more efficient to make a druid play Magi, a mesmer play Minstrel or a tempest swap to a healling build and have everyone else play full DPS meta than having multiple people run ranged or much more (selfish) defensive builds.
One good healer or support can keep up four damage dealers. You much rather sacrafice 10-20k DPS on one person than 5-15k on multiple people.

Pugs will be pugs. If there is no other choice than to play a tanky build, be the last person alive and solo a boss for half an hour then do so. Just don’t assume this build is anything but useless in most casses.

EcoRi, you’re alive!

In Fractals you have a lot of personal leeway with your build because pubs suck and don’t need to run optimal stuff to win (so they don’t). With one small change to my power Daredevil build I can still hit 25k+ DPS properly buffed (12k with no buffs at all) and be essentially invulnerable thanks to Invigorating Precision and some life steal food. Usually I take a defensive utility with stunbreak over Fist Flurry, too. Those kinds of small adjustments have been sufficient in my experience with basically any group, and can help a lot with group survivability because you’re perfectly able to destroy any T4 mob in mere seconds, rally allies, and prevent that now-dead enemy from damaging your party.

Otherwise I agree with other people that a single good support-minded player in any T4 Fractals group can basically keep anyone alive through anything in a normal fight. Magi Druid and Minstrels Chrono both fall into this category, and they help a lot.

One can even go as far as going nomad tank guard and justify it by saying “I’m getting all the aggro so you guys can do vacuum DPS and our group DPS increased by 20%”

You just won’t get all the aggro and prevent your group from getting cleaved by stuff.

I can, as a player believing in meta builds over garbage, get behind off-meta builds if they are better in the situation. I run an off meta build in fractals because it provides 25 might without the need of an outside stacker. Now once I get a PS warrior in the group I switch the build up because I no longer need to stack might myself so the benefit of this off build disappears.

So many people stick to the meta religiously that they’re doing less than they should because they are all sheep.

Henry.5713:

Kind of depends on the context we are talking about. There are meta builds and there are meta builds. There are none meta build and there are none meta builds.
Let’s compare two low damage none meta builds with eachother:
How about Magi druid and a PVT Bearbow ranger? Both aren’t meta, one is vastly superior in Fractals, however.
You always take a alive mid to low tier damage dealer over a dead top damage dealer. But you also take an alive top damage dealer over an alive mid tier or low tier damage dealer.

Do what you have to. All though, you should always go for supportive builds over defensive ones. It is far more efficient to make a druid play Magi, a mesmer play Minstrel or a tempest swap to a healling build and have everyone else play full DPS meta than having multiple people run ranged or much more (selfish) defensive builds.
One good healer or support can keep up four damage dealers. You much rather sacrafice 10-20k DPS on one person than 5-15k on multiple people.

Pugs will be pugs. If there is no other choice than to play a tanky build, be the last person alive and solo a boss for half an hour then do so. Just don’t assume this build is anything but useless in most casses.

Um excuse me? Magi druid, healing tempest, and minstrel chrono are all meta builds, just not for dps. What are you smoking?

FrostDraco.8306:

Henry.5713:

Kind of depends on the context we are talking about. There are meta builds and there are meta builds. There are none meta build and there are none meta builds.
Let’s compare two low damage none meta builds with eachother:
How about Magi druid and a PVT Bearbow ranger? Both aren’t meta, one is vastly superior in Fractals, however.
You always take a alive mid to low tier damage dealer over a dead top damage dealer. But you also take an alive top damage dealer over an alive mid tier or low tier damage dealer.

Do what you have to. All though, you should always go for supportive builds over defensive ones. It is far more efficient to make a druid play Magi, a mesmer play Minstrel or a tempest swap to a healling build and have everyone else play full DPS meta than having multiple people run ranged or much more (selfish) defensive builds.
One good healer or support can keep up four damage dealers. You much rather sacrafice 10-20k DPS on one person than 5-15k on multiple people.

Pugs will be pugs. If there is no other choice than to play a tanky build, be the last person alive and solo a boss for half an hour then do so. Just don’t assume this build is anything but useless in most casses.

Um excuse me? Magi druid, healing tempest, and minstrel chrono are all meta builds, just not for dps. What are you smoking?

They aren’t meta for the try hard groups. Try hard groups run viper druids for more DPS, chronos that get just enough boon duration for 100% quickness otherwise all zerk and making use of shatters and blurred frenzy for more DPS etc.

They are however widely accepted builds that carry hard if you do not have a top 0.1% of the player base group or someone who messes up a little or in some cases a lot.

I tried to join a group that wanted a dps build. I joined as a necro and got kicked for it. They told me “necro isn’t real dps”. those pugs think they’re so pro by using “best” classes/builds but in reality they’d do less than a necro. usually the people that discriminate classes are self proclaimed pro players and in reality they’re just the sheep of the meta industry that didn’t understand the point at all in their build or the game at all.
like the cat golem in uncategorized. as a necro i did 27k and ele did 23k but that boss was a burst and i still managed to do more than him.

apharma.3741:

FrostDraco.8306:

Henry.5713:

Kind of depends on the context we are talking about. There are meta builds and there are meta builds. There are none meta build and there are none meta builds.
Let’s compare two low damage none meta builds with eachother:
How about Magi druid and a PVT Bearbow ranger? Both aren’t meta, one is vastly superior in Fractals, however.
You always take a alive mid to low tier damage dealer over a dead top damage dealer. But you also take an alive top damage dealer over an alive mid tier or low tier damage dealer.

Do what you have to. All though, you should always go for supportive builds over defensive ones. It is far more efficient to make a druid play Magi, a mesmer play Minstrel or a tempest swap to a healling build and have everyone else play full DPS meta than having multiple people run ranged or much more (selfish) defensive builds.
One good healer or support can keep up four damage dealers. You much rather sacrafice 10-20k DPS on one person than 5-15k on multiple people.

Pugs will be pugs. If there is no other choice than to play a tanky build, be the last person alive and solo a boss for half an hour then do so. Just don’t assume this build is anything but useless in most casses.

Um excuse me? Magi druid, healing tempest, and minstrel chrono are all meta builds, just not for dps. What are you smoking?

They aren’t meta for the try hard groups. Try hard groups run viper druids for more DPS, chronos that get just enough boon duration for 100% quickness otherwise all zerk and making use of shatters and blurred frenzy for more DPS etc.

They are however widely accepted builds that carry hard if you do not have a top 0.1% of the player base group or someone who messes up a little or in some cases a lot.

Um dude, yes, they are. The whole reason minstrel chrono even became a thing was because of its use in a speedrun tournament, in which most if not all of the ‘top’ guilds used it.

Do you even watch how builds get used? All of these things are builds that were used for a specific thing. Even healing ele is used by ‘top’ guilds to kite flak on deimos. Dude you are sorely mistaken.

FrostDraco.8306:

Henry.5713:

Kind of depends on the context we are talking about. There are meta builds and there are meta builds. There are none meta build and there are none meta builds.
Let’s compare two low damage none meta builds with eachother:
How about Magi druid and a PVT Bearbow ranger? Both aren’t meta, one is vastly superior in Fractals, however.
You always take a alive mid to low tier damage dealer over a dead top damage dealer. But you also take an alive top damage dealer over an alive mid tier or low tier damage dealer.

Do what you have to. All though, you should always go for supportive builds over defensive ones. It is far more efficient to make a druid play Magi, a mesmer play Minstrel or a tempest swap to a healling build and have everyone else play full DPS meta than having multiple people run ranged or much more (selfish) defensive builds.
One good healer or support can keep up four damage dealers. You much rather sacrafice 10-20k DPS on one person than 5-15k on multiple people.

Pugs will be pugs. If there is no other choice than to play a tanky build, be the last person alive and solo a boss for half an hour then do so. Just don’t assume this build is anything but useless in most casses.

Um excuse me? Magi druid, healing tempest, and minstrel chrono are all meta builds, just not for dps. What are you smoking?

I don’t smoke, but thank you for these kind words.

Some of those builds might be more “meta” than others, sure. Healing tempest could be considered meta for Deimos. Magi Druids could be considered a party of the safer meta strategies. The ones pugs and many statics like to use.
I was actually talking about the most commonly talked about meta strategies which are usually centered around pushing as much condition damage or big target power damage/burst as possible. The meta strategies people are complaining about when they mention the meta and how much they dislike it.

FrostDraco.8306:

apharma.3741:

FrostDraco.8306:

Henry.5713:

Kind of depends on the context we are talking about. There are meta builds and there are meta builds. There are none meta build and there are none meta builds.
Let’s compare two low damage none meta builds with eachother:
How about Magi druid and a PVT Bearbow ranger? Both aren’t meta, one is vastly superior in Fractals, however.
You always take a alive mid to low tier damage dealer over a dead top damage dealer. But you also take an alive top damage dealer over an alive mid tier or low tier damage dealer.

Do what you have to. All though, you should always go for supportive builds over defensive ones. It is far more efficient to make a druid play Magi, a mesmer play Minstrel or a tempest swap to a healling build and have everyone else play full DPS meta than having multiple people run ranged or much more (selfish) defensive builds.
One good healer or support can keep up four damage dealers. You much rather sacrafice 10-20k DPS on one person than 5-15k on multiple people.

Pugs will be pugs. If there is no other choice than to play a tanky build, be the last person alive and solo a boss for half an hour then do so. Just don’t assume this build is anything but useless in most casses.

Um excuse me? Magi druid, healing tempest, and minstrel chrono are all meta builds, just not for dps. What are you smoking?

They aren’t meta for the try hard groups. Try hard groups run viper druids for more DPS, chronos that get just enough boon duration for 100% quickness otherwise all zerk and making use of shatters and blurred frenzy for more DPS etc.

They are however widely accepted builds that carry hard if you do not have a top 0.1% of the player base group or someone who messes up a little or in some cases a lot.

Um dude, yes, they are. The whole reason minstrel chrono even became a thing was because of its use in a speedrun tournament, in which most if not all of the ‘top’ guilds used it.

Do you even watch how builds get used? All of these things are builds that were used for a specific thing. Even healing ele is used by ‘top’ guilds to kite flak on deimos. Dude you are sorely mistaken.

You mean the speedrun tournament that forced them to low man all bosses? You know they ran them because it condensed roles right? Not because they would run them if they had a full 10 man group on every boss.

Heal ele is used in exactly 1 boss, which rev is actually better but who are we to poke holes in your knowledge. It is you who do not understand when and more importantly why these builds are used.

The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players. The same is said of heal ele outside of it’s single niche role on exactly 1 boss. I mean what you are trying to make out is like saying DPS mesmer is totally a thing even though everything outperforms it on all but 2 or 3 bosses, they are niche builds that are useful in niche cases, not something you would usually run on every boss with a full raid group.

apharma.3741:

The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players.

I"ll just leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bB99ndl0to

ButterPeanut.9746:

apharma.3741:

The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players.

I"ll just leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bB99ndl0to

Too bad in the comments when asked what he runs Deathly says the following: “(had concentration and accuracy cuz I don’t recommend using this build anywhere). The reason I ran it in this video is to allow druids to focus on buffing gotl and dps rather then healing the tank and to keep VG in place wich means I also had to jump blues(extra damage) and not dodge.”

Nice try but it’s still a niche build that they wouldn’t usually run. I am by no means saying the builds are bad just that they provide a higher carrying potential at a loss of some or a lot of damage in some cases.

Minstrel’s Chronomancer is great for the following places where pubs really struggle to stay alive and need as much carrying help as possible:

• Xera
• VG
• Deimos
• Matthias

apharma.3741:

ButterPeanut.9746:

apharma.3741:

The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players.

I"ll just leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bB99ndl0to

Too bad in the comments when asked what he runs Deathly says the following: “(had concentration and accuracy cuz I don’t recommend using this build anywhere). The reason I ran it in this video is to allow druids to focus on buffing gotl and dps rather then healing the tank and to keep VG in place wich means I also had to jump blues(extra damage) and not dodge.”

Nice try but it’s still a niche build that they wouldn’t usually run. I am by no means saying the builds are bad just that they provide a higher carrying potential at a loss of some or a lot of damage in some cases.

“The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad player”

This video is the fastest 10 man kill of this boss to date by the best players. Deathly’s reason for why it was run (aka increase druid DPS based on build, and to keep boss stationary) is irrelevant. If they had a better option, they would have used it. This is one example of where your statement is completely false.

We can see based on the video that they used 10 players, so I guess you are arguing that Deathly is carrying all of those bad players.

I never said it wasn’t niche, I simply provided an example of where it is used by the best of the best that is not a lowman scenario.

ButterPeanut.9746:

apharma.3741:

ButterPeanut.9746:

apharma.3741:

The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players.

I"ll just leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bB99ndl0to

Too bad in the comments when asked what he runs Deathly says the following: “(had concentration and accuracy cuz I don’t recommend using this build anywhere). The reason I ran it in this video is to allow druids to focus on buffing gotl and dps rather then healing the tank and to keep VG in place wich means I also had to jump blues(extra damage) and not dodge.”

Nice try but it’s still a niche build that they wouldn’t usually run. I am by no means saying the builds are bad just that they provide a higher carrying potential at a loss of some or a lot of damage in some cases.

“The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad player”

This video is the fastest 10 man kill of this boss to date by the best players. Deathly’s reason for why it was run (aka increase druid DPS based on build, and to keep boss stationary) is irrelevant. If they had a better option, they would have used it. This is one example of where your statement is completely false.

We can see based on the video that they used 10 players, so I guess you are arguing that Deathly is carrying all of those bad players.

I never said it wasn’t niche, I simply provided an example of where it is used by the best of the best that is not a lowman scenario.

Yes, well done, you found that absolute niche place where it offered the fastest clear time with some of the best players in the game using a strategy most pug groups would never do.

In other words a situation so completely detached from the thread it might as well have it’s own zip code.

You can run minstrels, skip the extra healer and 9 man a boss which isn’t completely outside the realms of pug groups. Even skipping a 2nd PS warrior if you have eles which can fill in the gaps on might without losing much damage. However in the context of this thread and most raid groups they will not run minstrels and it won’t be the best for most bosses or most groups.

Would you like me to add a disclaimer to my statement saying it is a broad generalisation across all raid wings and that these niche builds may in fact offer the quickest clear time in extremely organised groups doing unconventional tactics?

apharma.3741:

ButterPeanut.9746:

apharma.3741:

ButterPeanut.9746:

apharma.3741:

The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players.

I"ll just leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bB99ndl0to

Too bad in the comments when asked what he runs Deathly says the following: “(had concentration and accuracy cuz I don’t recommend using this build anywhere). The reason I ran it in this video is to allow druids to focus on buffing gotl and dps rather then healing the tank and to keep VG in place wich means I also had to jump blues(extra damage) and not dodge.”

Nice try but it’s still a niche build that they wouldn’t usually run. I am by no means saying the builds are bad just that they provide a higher carrying potential at a loss of some or a lot of damage in some cases.

“The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad player”

This video is the fastest 10 man kill of this boss to date by the best players. Deathly’s reason for why it was run (aka increase druid DPS based on build, and to keep boss stationary) is irrelevant. If they had a better option, they would have used it. This is one example of where your statement is completely false.

We can see based on the video that they used 10 players, so I guess you are arguing that Deathly is carrying all of those bad players.

I never said it wasn’t niche, I simply provided an example of where it is used by the best of the best that is not a lowman scenario.

Yes, well done, you found that absolute niche place where it offered the fastest clear time with some of the best players in the game using a strategy most pug groups would never do.

In other words a situation so completely detached from the thread it might as well have it’s own zip code.

You can run minstrels, skip the extra healer and 9 man a boss which isn’t completely outside the realms of pug groups. Even skipping a 2nd PS warrior if you have eles which can fill in the gaps on might without losing much damage. However in the context of this thread and most raid groups they will not run minstrels and it won’t be the best for most bosses or most groups.

Would you like me to add a disclaimer to my statement saying it is a broad generalisation across all raid wings and that these niche builds may in fact offer the quickest clear time in extremely organised groups doing unconventional tactics?

Pretty much.

This thread is covered with examples of where this build is useful, and you are right, most of the time it falls under the following categories:
- Low man
- Make up for mistakes of others
- Progression raids while learning

That being said, if I personally were to use such strong language as “The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players”, I would make sure to include a disclaimer about the fastest kill on the most refined boss in the game (aka the first)

It probably is a bit unfair of me to call you out on something this small, but its what it represents. The raid sub-forum has be COVERED with people speaking in false absolutes over the past year+. “My class can never raid”, “I’m always excluded”, “Make raids available for me specifically”, etc. As an avid reader of this forum, it becomes very frustrating to constantly read these absolute statements that are just plain wrong.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Pretty much.

This thread is covered with examples of where this build is useful, and you are right, most of the time it falls under the following categories:
- Low man
- Make up for mistakes of others
- Progression raids while learning

That being said, if I personally were to use such strong language as “The only time you would run minstrel chrono is when you have to low man or if you have to carry some bad players”, I would make sure to include a disclaimer about the fastest kill on the most refined boss in the game (aka the first)

It probably is a bit unfair of me to call you out on something this small, but its what it represents. The raid sub-forumn has be COVERED with people speaking in false absolutes over the past year+. “My class can never raid”, “I’m always excluded”, “Make raids available for me specifically”, etc. As an avid reader of this forumn, it becomes very frustrating to constantly read these absolute statements that are just plain wrong.

Just a little unfair given I was originally replying to a guy saying that minstrel chrono, magi druid and healing tempest aren’t meta for try yards but still widely accepted builds that carry hard. Had a Matthias group earlier where I stat swapped to heal ele as I knew it would get us the kill first time as opposed to multiple wipes due to the healers not being as experienced with how demanding it can be sometimes.

Always the problem with the meta pusher mentality; builds and gear do not replace skills. Apparently, the rebuttal is just as silly; builds and gear get you closer to good if scrub.

I’ve been on the fence with DPS meters, but my latest is that it would be great to have them, just to make many people look really ridiculous with their assumptions about meta builds.

apharma.3741:

Yes, well done, you found that absolute niche place where it offered the fastest clear time with some of the best players in the game using a strategy most pug groups would never do.

In other words a situation so completely detached from the thread it might as well have it’s own zip code.

You can run minstrels, skip the extra healer and 9 man a boss which isn’t completely outside the realms of pug groups. Even skipping a 2nd PS warrior if you have eles which can fill in the gaps on might without losing much damage. However in the context of this thread and most raid groups they will not run minstrels and it won’t be the best for most bosses or most groups.

Would you like me to add a disclaimer to my statement saying it is a broad generalisation across all raid wings and that these niche builds may in fact offer the quickest clear time in extremely organised groups doing unconventional tactics?

Wait I thought this was the whole point of the thread. You don’t bring meta builds aka cookie cutter builds to pugs. Just because it is “optimal” doesn’t mean it is optimal for your group. Read my reason 3. You have to adapt your build based on the players you have in your group and use the DPS meter to justify a so called bad build(your minstrels example).

EcoRI.9273:

apharma.3741:

Yes, well done, you found that absolute niche place where it offered the fastest clear time with some of the best players in the game using a strategy most pug groups would never do.

In other words a situation so completely detached from the thread it might as well have it’s own zip code.

You can run minstrels, skip the extra healer and 9 man a boss which isn’t completely outside the realms of pug groups. Even skipping a 2nd PS warrior if you have eles which can fill in the gaps on might without losing much damage. However in the context of this thread and most raid groups they will not run minstrels and it won’t be the best for most bosses or most groups.

Would you like me to add a disclaimer to my statement saying it is a broad generalisation across all raid wings and that these niche builds may in fact offer the quickest clear time in extremely organised groups doing unconventional tactics?

Wait I thought this was the whole point of the thread. You don’t bring meta builds aka cookie cutter builds to pugs. Just because it is “optimal” doesn’t mean it is optimal for your group. Read my reason 3. You have to adapt your build based on the players you have in your group and use the DPS meter to justify a so called bad build(your minstrels example).

There’s a difference between bad build and non meta alternative though.

Minstrels chrono is a non meta alternative, it carries hard as well as being very forgiving giving you other options should you be down a role, it also accomplishes it’s role without being that big a loss to the team. This isn’t quite the same as running a bad build which you described as a PP thief doing twice the DPS of other players because they were dead half the boss fight. Your example isn’t a comp issue, it’s a skill issue most likely especially as you are talking about fractals which aren’t too difficult outside the few annoying instabilities.

This isn’t the same as say a warrior switching signet of might for FGJ because they notice might or fury uptime is a little low or a similar situation.

Minstrels stats is still in a good place as it fills the role of buffer and healer. If everyone is running dps build someone have to pick up the dead.

Sorry if I am derailing the topic but with your experiences,, do you think minstrel chrono in fractal pugs worth it? I like playing support roles in fracs such as heal druid (aldo condi ranger and condi druid, which is such a treat) and zerk chrono, and minstrel seems like a good compromise between them.

Minstrel Chrono can carry really hard in fractal pugs. Can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve been able to facetank attacks like Bloomhunger’s ground pound tantrum or cannon fire at Mai Trin to pick up a downed player.

Pregnantman.8259:

Sorry if I am derailing the topic but with your experiences,, do you think minstrel chrono in fractal pugs worth it? I like playing support roles in fracs such as heal druid (aldo condi ranger and condi druid, which is such a treat) and zerk chrono, and minstrel seems like a good compromise between them.

If you need to run mistrel chrono, just find a new group.

It’s generally better to run DPS as the faster things die, the better you team lives.

If only finding a new group was as easy as you say..

FrostDraco.8306:

Pregnantman.8259:

Sorry if I am derailing the topic but with your experiences,, do you think minstrel chrono in fractal pugs worth it? I like playing support roles in fracs such as heal druid (aldo condi ranger and condi druid, which is such a treat) and zerk chrono, and minstrel seems like a good compromise between them.

If you need to run mistrel chrono, just find a new group.
It’s generally better to run DPS as the faster things die, the better you team lives.

It’s interesting to note that both of these approaches are the same: compensate for bad players by doing X — in the first case use the mesmer, in the second case hope that you DPS the boss down before the inability to do mechanics kills you.

Personally, I take the approach that it’s better to try and teach people to do the mechanics, and help them when they fall short, so that while high theoretically DPS helps speed things through, we clear even if we can’t burst the boss faster than a mechanic for whatever reason.

Turns a lot of things from “perfect or wipe” into victories. YMMV, of course.

Minstrel chrono in fractals for me is a last resort if u have no heals whatsoever, generally the purpose of healing in t4’s is to counteract social awkwardness which can kill people fast if they are stacking, the burst healing/regen from druid is the only thing u need. A full minstrel chrono heals only through mantra for about 5k which is good but not enough and u can give 300-350 regen ticks which is a lot lower than a magi druid or auramancer. So yes chrono minstrel is a last resort. Some people may talk about protection with chaos?
In fractals, having distorts handy is amazing, too many attacks that can be distorted which doesnt happen without domination so bringing chaos is another bad choice.

Pregnantman.8259:

Sorry if I am derailing the topic but with your experiences,, do you think minstrel chrono in fractal pugs worth it? I like playing support roles in fracs such as heal druid (aldo condi ranger and condi druid, which is such a treat) and zerk chrono, and minstrel seems like a good compromise between them.

It depends on your group and the boss your facing at times. Most of the time zerk chrono is good enough for most parts in T4 Fotm and pugs group are decently equipped and might not need it.

It only useful when it comes to heavy hitting bosses like Bloomhunger’s or 100 cm this is where minstrel comes in. A clear way to to know if your team is lacking in support is when you see 2-3 guys keep dying or wiping then its good time to go full support.

Chrono healing is decent but not great as mantra have long casting time prep time (and can be interrupted) but its as buffer its can provide most boons with decent duration as well as speeding up the dps on all player.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

FrostDraco.8306:

Pregnantman.8259:

Sorry if I am derailing the topic but with your experiences,, do you think minstrel chrono in fractal pugs worth it? I like playing support roles in fracs such as heal druid (aldo condi ranger and condi druid, which is such a treat) and zerk chrono, and minstrel seems like a good compromise between them.

If you need to run mistrel chrono, just find a new group.
It’s generally better to run DPS as the faster things die, the better you team lives.

It’s interesting to note that both of these approaches are the same: compensate for bad players by doing X — in the first case use the mesmer, in the second case hope that you DPS the boss down before the inability to do mechanics kills you.

Personally, I take the approach that it’s better to try and teach people to do the mechanics, and help them when they fall short, so that while high theoretically DPS helps speed things through, we clear even if we can’t burst the boss faster than a mechanic for whatever reason.

Turns a lot of things from “perfect or wipe” into victories. YMMV, of course.

By the time you hit t4 you should know the mechanics. And in lower scales the fights don’t even last long enough for you to need healing.

There is a difference between, “perfect r wipe”, and your warrior fails to produce any might because he’s running a/a but also needs a res every few seconds, and your death magic reaper is boasting about how tanky they are, but literally dies every min and cant even keep up 16 bleeds stacks in full viper, but has the audacity to tell you about how raid builds need support (and how their build is up on qT’s site, even tho its way outdated), when you can just put on parasitic contagion. I’ve had that scenario happen countless times in T4 fractals. So yes, it is MUCH easier to just replace these people.

FrostDraco.8306:

SlippyCheeze.5483:

FrostDraco.8306:

Pregnantman.8259:

Sorry if I am derailing the topic but with your experiences,, do you think minstrel chrono in fractal pugs worth it? I like playing support roles in fracs such as heal druid (aldo condi ranger and condi druid, which is such a treat) and zerk chrono, and minstrel seems like a good compromise between them.

If you need to run mistrel chrono, just find a new group.
It’s generally better to run DPS as the faster things die, the better you team lives.

It’s interesting to note that both of these approaches are the same: compensate for bad players by doing X — in the first case use the mesmer, in the second case hope that you DPS the boss down before the inability to do mechanics kills you.

Personally, I take the approach that it’s better to try and teach people to do the mechanics, and help them when they fall short, so that while high theoretically DPS helps speed things through, we clear even if we can’t burst the boss faster than a mechanic for whatever reason.

Turns a lot of things from “perfect or wipe” into victories. YMMV, of course.

By the time you hit t4 you should know the mechanics. And in lower scales the fights don’t even last long enough for you to need healing.

There is a difference between, “perfect r wipe”, and your warrior fails to produce any might because he’s running a/a but also needs a res every few seconds, and your death magic reaper is boasting about how tanky they are, but literally dies every min and cant even keep up 16 bleeds stacks in full viper, but has the audacity to tell you about how raid builds need support (and how their build is up on qT’s site, even tho its way outdated), when you can just put on parasitic contagion. I’ve had that scenario happen countless times in T4 fractals. So yes, it is MUCH easier to just replace these people.

Sure, but it’s also entirely possible to complete the fractal successfully with people who are not in the “perfect” build for the current meta, but don’t suck like that. It’s that wide, wide gap between the two extremes that I’m talking about.