Guild Wars 2

I don’t think getting rid of enrage timers is the appropriate solution.

However, it seems clear that if the intent was to disrupt the Zerker meta, the Vale Guardian hasn’t done a great job in doing so.

The group that managed to finish it has already started discussing how maybe they didn’t need so much of a focus on healing.

Meanwhile, other groups are struggling to meet the enrage timers due to lack of DPS.
Only a slight nerf to HP seems necessary (it should still be HARD to beat the enrage timer.)

TL;DR: I’d suggest buffing damage to ensure this doesn’t just become 9 Zerker, 1 tank/healer.

They beat the enrage timer in suboptimal gear after 1 day of trying by over a full minute… the boss needs more HP if anything not less.

More damage doesn’t change anything. Damage is mostly mitigated not absorbed.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

They beat the enrage timer in suboptimal gear after 1 day of trying by over a full minute… the boss needs more HP if anything not less.

More damage doesn’t change anything. Damage is mostly mitigated not absorbed.

Your comment of “suboptimal” gear illustrates my point entirely.

ANet claimed (obviously pre-emptively) “the Zerker meta is dead.”

The only thing “suboptimal” about their gear is that they could have had more people running Zerker (and thus higher DPS).

Perhaps the HP doesn’t need a nerf, but the boss needs something to ensure that healing & tanking are just as important as DPS.

That was one of the fights where anet claims it can be done in exotic gear. I hope you realize, the guilds that have all posted videos of beating it have players that are better than uncoordinated groups.

I do hope they make it harder so my team can have more fun figuring the most optimized group comp.

Lol, this “claim” was an offhand remark that was said sarcastically. Quit taking every thing they say so literally.

Minos.5168:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

They beat the enrage timer in suboptimal gear after 1 day of trying by over a full minute… the boss needs more HP if anything not less.

More damage doesn’t change anything. Damage is mostly mitigated not absorbed.

Your comment of “suboptimal” gear illustrates my point entirely.

ANet claimed (obviously pre-emptively) “the Zerker meta is dead.”

The only thing “suboptimal” about their gear is that they could have had more people running Zerker (and thus higher DPS).

Perhaps the HP doesn’t need a nerf, but the boss needs something to ensure that healing & tanking are just as important as DPS.

They were not completely optimal set up afaik, also we (read: you guys) barely had any time to really test out the raid. Who knows what strats/setups people will come up with? There’s also those mushrooms no one was able to use, which apparently boost your attack speed – that’s more dps, too.

The timer and HP seem, as of now, completely fine. Adjustments could be made once it’s out, but I don’t feel like it’s going to be necessary from what I’ve seen.

I also don’t ever recall ANet saying “zerker is ded”, they were saying that they wanted to make other combinations besides Berserker more useful; considering they had multiple Sinisters (to be fair, it’s basically the cond-equivalent to Berserker) and some more tanky-ish builds, I think that’s fine. Also remember that this is the first boss of who knows how many (well I don’t), we can’t even tell what setups the next (mini-)bosses are best fought with.

Some people are jumping the gun way too quickly tbh

David.4821:

I do hope they make it harder so my team can have more fun figuring the most optimized group comp.

Increasing enrage timer difficulty has nothing to do with figuring out the most optimized group it only limits the pool of what is “good enough”. ¹ I think Arena Net should focus on making it so players aren’t improving their “spreadsheet” skills, and actually improving their mobility, twitch, and skill use. They should also be encouraging build diversity and not discouraging it. Making the encounter difficult through enrage timers pushes it towards requiring more precision from players on their spreadsheet, it doesn’t ask that they become better in the mechanical skills (e.g., position, environmental objects, etc.). or the control/support options.

My biggest concern is that by making enrage timers more precise it is going to move Arena Net away from their stated goal of utilizing control/support and that every class should be capable of these things in their own way. If the precision is really tight, we may find ourselves in a situation, for example, where multiple DPS necromancers aren’t viable for the DPS slot in the raid. That would be a sad state as it forces guilds, especially small guilds, that want to raid to tell their players what they should play and what role they should take on. I’d rather my players want to play their profession as a support, rather than forcing them to play it as a support.

Raids should be challenging, but I don’t think it should be through spreadsheet calculations on who/what profession dishes out the most damage against the encounter. That’s not playing the game, it’s spending time preparing to play it.

¹ – The optimal group remains the optimal group, no matter how small or large the window is before the boss enrages.

SirMoogie.9263:

David.4821:

I do hope they make it harder so my team can have more fun figuring the most optimized group comp.

Increasing enrage timer difficulty has nothing to do with figuring out the most optimized group it only limits the pool of what is “good enough”. ¹ I think Arena Net should focus on making it so players aren’t improving their “spreadsheet” skills, and actually improving their mobility, twitch, and skill use. They should also be encouraging build diversity and not discouraging it. Making the encounter difficult through enrage timers pushes it towards requiring more precision from players on their spreadsheet, it doesn’t ask that they become better in the mechanical skills (e.g., position, environmental objects, etc.). or the control/support options.

My biggest concern is that by making enrage timers more precise it is going to move Arena Net away from their stated goal of utilizing control/support and that every class should be capable of these things in their own way. If the precision is really tight, we may find ourselves in a situation, for example, where multiple DPS necromancers aren’t viable for the DPS slot in the raid. That would be a sad state as it forces guilds, especially small guilds, that want to raid to tell their players what they should play and what role they should take on. I’d rather my players want to play their profession as a support, rather than forcing them to play it as a support.

Raids should be challenging, but I don’t think it should be through spreadsheet calculations on who/what profession dishes out the most damage against the encounter. That’s not playing the game, it’s spending time preparing to play it.

¹ – The optimal group remains the optimal group, no matter how small or large the window is before the boss enrages.

He never said to make it difficult by decreasing the enrage timer. It was just a generalized statement that he wants it to be harder.

Ayrilana.1396:

He never said to make it difficult by decreasing the enrage timer. It was just a generalized statement that he wants it to be harder.

The context is a discussion on boss HP/Damage in regards to the enrage mechanic. If he meant something else, I did not pick up on that.

SirMoogie.9263:

Ayrilana.1396:

He never said to make it difficult by decreasing the enrage timer. It was just a generalized statement that he wants it to be harder.

The context is a discussion on boss HP/Damage in regards to the enrage mechanic. If he meant something else, I did not pick up on that.

The discussion isn’t about that or at least not what the OP presented. All they stated was that they don’t feel that adjusting the enrage timer was the appropriate solution. Their post was about adjusting the HP to be lower but increasing its damage output to give other classes more of a role. That’s kind of different from the claim that they were talking about the enrage timer.

I seriously think the Vale Guardian is perfectly balanced as a first encounter in the first wing of the first raid. I fully expect further encounters to be harder and push the boundaries of what a pure DPS composition can achieve.

I’d like to point out that people were also using the very OP druid spec that is surely to change, I believe Irenio even posted that he felt that they were healing too well in berserker such that it made no sense to even get healing power, and that will change.

Well, wasn’t there what 4 condition damage builds and one tank or something? Zerker meta dead :P

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Well, wasn’t there what 4 condition damage builds and one tank or something? Zerker meta dead :P

For NA’s it was 3 sinister and 1 rabid I believe all Engi condi builds.
For LoD’s it was 2 sinister Engi, 1 cele guard and rest zerk

That’s as much as I know about it.

Jerus.4350:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Well, wasn’t there what 4 condition damage builds and one tank or something? Zerker meta dead :P

For NA’s it was 3 sinister and 1 rabid I believe all Engi condi builds.
For LoD’s it was 2 sinister Engi, 1 cele guard and rest zerk

That’s as much as I know about it.

Yet we have people complaining, saying the beserker meta is still all that matter…

No matter what Anet does people will complain, we now have about 4-6 pretty viable different gear stats, but thats not emough, because some settler staff guardian want his little snowflake build to be optimal.

P.S. that wasn’t against you XD i replied to you because you posted the differeny build people were using.

Minos.5168:

TL;DR: I’d suggest buffing damage to ensure this doesn’t just become 9 Zerker, 1 tank/healer.

before it was 5 berserker focused on dps.

now it is 1 player who can tank, 1 player who heals, 8 players focused on group support and dps.
it is not different in other MMOs in 10 man raids.

now would be a good time to understand the differences between the gw2 combat and trinity MMO combat.

and as i said in another thread, before people complain about the timer they should focus on clean execution. if they get a clean execution done and still cant beat the boss, then they can try to use better builds.
everyone who wants to beat the boss and everyone who likes challenging content doesnt have a problem with changing their build to what is “optimal” or at least better than what they are currently running.
being a special snowflake doesnt really help in raid content.

Why nerfing the HP? The HP and Enrage Timer are tuned so, that you can defeat it with not being a full DPS Group and still having Time left. It doesn’t matter if you have a full Zerker Group. If they kitten up every single Port and run half the Map every Time for the Orb then they would hit Enrage before the first Intermission Phase.

Mistakes on the Mechanics are a heavier DPS Loss than switching out the Optimal DPS Guy with someone who isn’t Zerker/Sinister/Nuke/Searing Cauldron/Whatever is the most DPS Thing.

Play the Mechanics smoothly and you can beat the Boss.

Unfortunately in PvE, it is always all about dps.

You optimize your strategy and composition to reach the best sustain dps. There is way less unpredictable events compared to PvP.

In PvP, burst dps and survivability are more important since you can be sure things will go south sometimes. While in PvE, after you practise enough, everything should be under your control and you optimize your best sustained dps.

I do agree with the OP though that more damage and less HP can be more interesting. It will probably alter the optimal gear selection. We may see a bit more healing, toughness and vitality(exactly what Anet want, right?). However, the overall gameplay won’t change.

Sometimes I find this dungeon subforum kinda funny. The OP is really just offering some suggestions. However, half of the people regard it as a complaint and trying to teach the OP how2play.

I’ll say it again, the groups that beat it used a druid, druid will be getting nerfed. There goes a lot of defense. Things may very well change when it hits live.

Exciton.8942:

I do agree with the OP though that more damage and less HP can be more interesting. It will probably alter the optimal gear selection. We may see a bit more healing, toughness and vitality(exactly what Anet want, right?). However, the overall gameplay won’t change.

Sometimes I find this dungeon subforum kinda funny. The OP is really just offering some suggestions. However, half of the people regard it as a complaint and trying to teach the OP how2play.

his suggestions are based on groups that struggle to kill the boss before the timer runs out. and if you cant kill the boss before the timer runs out then there is far more to that than just builds and dps.

a few examples for bad execution (which results in dps loss):
- boss is kited and people dont use movement skills to catch up and dps permanently
- people get teleported (after a few attempts that shouldnt happen anymore, because you can literally moonwalk out of the aoes fast enough and dont even have to dodge them)
- people who soak the aoes dont dps correctly (or at all) while running from aoe to aoe.

now if you watch the kill/attempt videos you will realize that the examples even happened there and yet people had more than enough time left on the timer.
the enrage timer isnt as tight as people say and preventing the things i described above is what people in other MMOs take for granted.

The worst thing they could do is lower the health. If they want to make it easier, they could extend the enrage time instead. The issue with lowering health is that this reduces the amount of time you have to deal with mechanics, and the amount of time that you could possibly mess them up.

Nokaru.7831:

The worst thing they could do is lower the health. If they want to make it easier, they could extend the enrage time instead. The issue with lowering health is that this reduces the amount of time you have to deal with mechanics, and the amount of time that you could possibly mess them up.

That’s not true. Setting a high HP bar is just a cheap way to make encounter ‘challenging’. It could even be tedious in the end. Doing the exact same thing over and over without mistakes is indeed skill, but do you really enjoy having that skill. It is a game after all.

Just to list a few ways that can also make encounter really challenging.

Boss has more damage: force players to use more defensive stats, strategy to mitigate damage. Make it harder to achieve party-wise optimal dps.

Boss can actively mitigate damage(active defence, cleanse condie etc): You need to learn to do damage at the right time to make them effective.

Boss has better AI and trying to focus down low HP, low defence players: Party has to watch their members status more carefully.

Boss has better AI and tries to kite melee players: party has to reconsider strategy and achieve balance between range and melee.

I’d rather have high HP than making certain players next to useless at different times.

Exciton.8942:

That’s not true. Setting a high HP bar is just a cheap way to make encounter ‘challenging’. It could even be tedious in the end. Doing the exact same thing over and over without mistakes is indeed skill, but do you really enjoy having that skill. It is a game after all.

It’s not the exact same thing. If what you said was true then players would not be wiping at low percentages of the boss. And yet many did.

Just to list a few ways that can also make encounter really challenging.

Boss has more damage: force players to use more defensive stats, strategy to mitigate damage. Make it harder to achieve party-wise optimal dps.

Putting on a different set of gear makes things challenging your eyes? That’s interesting. It’s not that hard to put a different set of gear last I checked.

Boss can actively mitigate damage(active defence, cleanse condie etc): You need to learn to do damage at the right time to make them effective.

Just a way to increase the boss’ is effective health. While interesting in theory, just ends up making players not use their attacks for long periods of time in which is a lot more boring. We already saw this with the Assault Knights, which many players complained about.

Boss has better AI and trying to focus down low HP, low defence players: Party has to watch their members status more carefully.

Here, watch this video this will answer better than I could: (Link)

Boss has better AI and tries to kite melee players: party has to reconsider strategy and achieve balance between range and melee.

There already is an incentive to bring players using range attacks on Pylons.

Nokaru.7831:

Exciton.8942:

That’s not true. Setting a high HP bar is just a cheap way to make encounter ‘challenging’. It could even be tedious in the end. Doing the exact same thing over and over without mistakes is indeed skill, but do you really enjoy having that skill. It is a game after all.

It’s not the exact same thing. If what you said was true then players would not be wiping at low percentages of the boss. And yet many did.

---

Just to list a few ways that can also make encounter really challenging.

Boss has more damage: force players to use more defensive stats, strategy to mitigate damage. Make it harder to achieve party-wise optimal dps.

Putting on a different set of gear makes things challenging your eyes? That’s interesting. It’s not that hard to put a different set of gear last I checked.

Boss can actively mitigate damage(active defence, cleanse condie etc): You need to learn to do damage at the right time to make them effective.

Just a way to increase the boss’ is effective health. While interesting in theory, just ends up making players not use their attacks for long periods of time in which is a lot more boring. We already saw this with the Assault Knights, which many players complained about.

Boss has better AI and trying to focus down low HP, low defence players: Party has to watch their members status more carefully.

Here, watch this video this will answer better than I could: (Link)

Boss has better AI and tries to kite melee players: party has to reconsider strategy and achieve balance between range and melee.

There already is an incentive to bring players using range attacks on Pylons.

Regarding point 1: I already said in an earlier post of the thread that gameplay won’t change much. But you have more incentive to find an optimal stats combination rather going for simple all zerker/sinister. And this is exactly what Anet wants. More viability of different stats of gear

Regarding point 2: This is exactly why the combat in PvP of this game is interesting. People can completely mitigate your damage by just dodge. This makes your think more, react more and make better use of gw2’s action orientated gameplay. I am almost always on my toes in a close PvP game. But never had that feeling in the raid beta.

Regarding point 3: Not sure what idea the video wants to convey. The guy is not providing any argument at all. Not at all.

Regarding point 4: The boss is really just like a moving zombie in the raid beta. In games like witcher 3, you see mobs actively trying to kite you. You feel you have to do more than just maintaining your max dps rotation.

I’m still wondering if the boss could be done with sinister only… and a healer perhaps.