Guild Wars 2

For the first time in my pugging career, I have bumped into a lone individual who appeared to be overtly zealous about not utilizing “exploits” and certain kinds of cheats. Normally, I’d get that from guild groups who don’t like exploiting (which I greatly respect by the way— don’t see too many them around these days), but I don’t blame the guy— personally, I’d rather do the content in a fair manner and learn to actually complete it proper instead of relying on an exploit to complete it only to find out it gets patched in a later build. I won’t mention names but if you’re lurking around, here’s a toast to a legit Cliffside Fractal completion. I was in your Fractals group as “Fleeting Flash”.

Now, this thread isn’t about naming and shaming exploiters, and the anti-exploiters complaining about others who do these exploits. Instead, it’s a thread that hopefully clears the blurry line between a “genuine exploit” and a “tactical advantage.” I know I’ve been doing my part in reporting anything that looks like an exploit to exploits@arena.net by providing some screenshots of how to reproduce them (meaning that I would do or have someone demonstrate the action one time to see if it’s actually an exploit), but even I, myself, do question if certain actions that my pugs are doing falls under Exploiting or just “Utilizing Dem Elite Skillz Yo”.

But it got me thinking: what surely defines an exploit?

I know the more obvious ones, like glitches in terrain (eg. the “Mountain Shortcut” in Caudecus’ Manor, which is mostly patched) and “bugging” certain encounters so that bosses do unexpected behaviors (eg. stacking in one of the “safe spots” in the Snow Fractal so that the Legendary Svanir shaman cannot hit you, which has been patched) could be considered exploiting … but I’m sure there might be parts of dungeons that could be wrongly labeled as exploiting, like skipping certain mobs and/or bosses; or everyone bunching up in ranged to avoid a hard-hitting melee attack, or bunching up in melee to avoid a hard-hitting ranged attack.

Skipping bosses is one thing that bugged me— we all know that skipping Kohler in AC is not an exploit and perfectly acceptable in a technical sense. You can sneak past by him without aggroing him and you should be fine. On the other hand, skipping Korga in the Arah Jotun path got me scratching my head because you still aggro that ugly undead ape, but does running very far away to break aggro in an attempt to skip Korga acceptable? Note the key element between the two encounters: Aggro. The former does not aggro with a successful skip while the latter does aggro regardless if the skip was successful or not.

“Cheesing” encounters is another thing that sort of bothers me, but if the boss can still kill me just because I’m careless, then I think it’s not exploiting. Stacking in melee range for Subject Alpha in CoE is an example of what I think is a valid tactic because Alpha can still kill me if I don’t dodge and/or heal myself if things get hairy. On the other hand, having everyone stacking in a “safe spot” because a boss or any adds it spawns can never hit you would be exploiting, for example the tree in front of The Mossman’s house (which has been patched in the 28 Jan 2013 build).

Maybe I’m wrong on some accounts of reporting since I never hear anything back when I email my reports, but back to the original subject: it would be nice to know what distinguishes between a genuine exploit or just doing legitimate tactics to make the encounter more easier.

From a post by Robert Hrouda, lead content designer for the dungeons:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Just for the record, standing in a place where you can hurt the boss but the boss can’t hurt you back / can’t fight back is considered an exploit, and we are working on a solution for that problem. As is exploiting terrain like teleporting through walls/closed doors, and getting under/above the map to skip content and get to a place where you can take advantage of bugs or events not requiring previous completion in the order of events (skipping directly to Giganticus lupicus from the start of the arah explore chain for instance).

These are things we patch and fix as we discover them and figure out solutions for. As I have said before, if you see something say something by emailing this alias: Exploits@arena.net

:EDIT: Link to post and thread here.

Thanks for the response, SynfulChaot. That makes sense in a very general sense, which I do provide examples in my OP.

However, there are some “grey area” glitches that makes me wonder if something really is an exploit or just a very strange bug.

I believe terrain glitches as featured in CM and Arah are considered exploits. Tactics in battle such as stacking on SA are just good tactics.

I think the general feeling is that if it feels like an exploit, it is and should be reported as such.

Ari Kagura.9182:

Thanks for the response, SynfulChaot. That makes sense in a very general sense, which I do provide examples in my OP.

However, there are some “grey area” glitches that makes me wonder if something really is an exploit or just a very strange bug.

Well every exploit starts with a bug. Purposely triggering a bug for the player’s benefit would be an exploit.

Gray would be something like portal guns and spy kits. There is no bug involved and technically everything is working like they are supposed to just like mobs leashing but it’s fairly obvious that it wasn’t how challenge was intended to be solved.

Khisanth, spy kits and portal guns are a bit iffy— I’ll agree with you on that. I do know that most consumables like those are disabled in WvW but not in dungeon content. Generally speaking, I suppose the mentality behind that is that PvE consumables should only be used in PvE and not in PvP. And since dungeons are part of the PvE game, then consumables like those can be allowed … within reason. What kind of “reason” would that be? Who knows! I do know that pugs can be very creative so they’ll eventually find some kind of cool trick with them and tell all their friends and their friends-of-friends about it.

I just cleared an entire wall of text by accident so I’m quite kitten off. Again…

1st: 90% of exploiters pretend not to understand the difference between an actual bug abuse and a tactic, no matter how cheesy it might be (see: CM mountain climbing vs. running past mobs), so I seriously doubt that, at this point, there are more than a few grey areas, after what Anet said.
Terrain bugs are the most blatant examples of exploit. You said it too in the OP. So let’s move on. Whoever states not to understand these are exploits (portal jumping another example) is a disgusting liar. Or mentally challenged. Or new to games. Period.

2nd: about skipping mobs. Anet said clearly that skipping is an intended tactic, and the mobs leashing give us a very clear example of how this proves itself true in-game.
How should one recognize which mobs can be skipped?
Well, this is my conclusion. If the mission progresses naturally- mind you, that means that you’re not jumping through walls, teleporting, biking surfing whatever through anything, and that you simply walk through the intended path, very clearly stated – then it’s ok to skip. An example: the bridge event in CoF path 1. Does the quest progress naturally while you walk past mobs? Yes. No bugs involved: you don’t teleport through closed doors to get to the acolytes’ event, you don’t make npcs bug to start the dialogue.
Is mob leashing a good game design? I don’t care, it’s AN game, they decided to allow skipping and I don’t have the right to tell it’s wrong. Noone does but Anet.

3rd, strange bugs that don’t involve exploiting terrain and bugging npcs/bosses. An example: path 1 HotW, Ginva the butcher. If you destroy a totem before the cinematic starts, that totem won’t respawn during the fight. Well that is something that isn’t clearly working as intended, and must be reported. The totems are there for a reason.

4th, you mentioned mobs that, if I understood you well, don’t leash unless at very long distances. If the mob doesn’t stop chasing you, well.. you have to kill it in any case, right? No wonders (I think the champion spider in Arah path 3 doesn’t leash, in fact, always had to kill her). If it stops and the mission progresses, the cinematics start exc. without any need to use terrain exploits and/or npc glitches or whatever, same as above.

5th, already stated clearly by Robert that hitting bosses without them being able to hit you at all is an exploit. Nothing to argue here. So yeah, standing on that rock in p3 Arah to kill the Crusher while he can’t reach you, sorry to say, isn’t exactly intended.

6th, so-called cheesy tactics. The only one I can think of and doesn’t involve bug abusing and terrain glitching is the one already mentioned, stacking on melee at Alpha. The boss can hit you, the boss can kill you (I managed to almost wipe there with a pug, it seemed like they were trying really hard to be that bad), the boss doesn’t bug out and you don’t make him bug out. If it isn’t intended, why does he use another skill while you’re meleeing him (the flame burst) instead of the flame tooth?
Every bug that is being abused by the players to have an edge during the combat is a candidate for being reported as an exploit. Again, bugs only. Fighting ranged or melee or naked for a specific encounter is fine.

Please let me know if you’re aware of some curious dungeon bugs I haven’t seen or couldn’t think of, it could be fun.
Hope this helps.

i don’t think running past a boss is an exploit. all you did is run away from it.

deSade, I’ll touch base on on particular point —

Skipping mobs: This a totally different can of worms all together, but might still be loosely related to the issue of exploiting. I suppose your view of skipping seems reasonable, as long terrain-exploiting is not involved.

I know in most MMOs, dungeon mobs generally have perma-aggro, but I think instead of forcing someone to fight something that they don’t want to, entice the group with interesting or rewarding loot that could exclusively drop from them if killed. The treasure-seekers would have some interest in killing them, while those who still focus on the end reward can still attempt their speed-runs. For instance, maybe killing the trash in Arah might have a reasonable chance of dropping crafting recipes that utilizes stacks and stacks of Piles of Putrid Essence. It would be nice to actually have a use for those things.

That aside, I do wonder how much “skippable” content is a reasonable amount when it comes to dungeon design. I know GW2 doesn’t have mounts (yet?), but I know in many other MMOs that have outdoor dungeons and allows the use of mounts in them, it just annoys the hell out of me when you could get on your mount up and skip like 90% of the trash in it. I just find that amount of skippable content to be absurd.

Back to the subject on exploiting and bug-finding, I can’t think of ones that I haven’t discovered myself— just ones that pugs have shown me before. And most of those generally get fixed by the next major build when I report them. Though I’ll admit that I never knew about that trick about destroying those totems in HotW path 1 before the cinematic plays. I might try that see if that actually works because I’ve never heard that one before.

vespers, I don’t think skipping bosses in general is an exploit as long you don’t utilize other kinds of exploits to skip it. I just honestly find it odd. Then again, I find skipping any boss kind of odd, regardless of MMO I play.

Oh but skipping all content is odd. That’s the right word. Why putting there mobs if they have to be avoided in the first place? Skipping doesn’t require much skill, just less time than actual killing. I hate skipping in the first place. The reason why they allow skipping bosses like Kholer is out of my reach. Yet, it was the same in GW1, and if they decided so then so be it…. Since GW had no better rewards statistic-wise, speed runs were used to strive for efficiency and have more chances /per hour to loot something from the chest. Bless RNG.
Yeah, adding random skins to drops (dungeon-themed) could help, but that would definitely kill (once and for all) the open world. It sounds easy on paper, changing drops and raising drop chances, but in reality it’s hard to find a balance.
But that is a completely different topic… the crappy loot table of mobs is well known.
They have much to do, other than finding creative ways to improve it. Like… fixing some consumables. I’m surprised they didn’t yet. I guess that while trying to be imaginative with bundles, tonics, environmental weapons and the like they created some abominations…

The only one who defines an exploit is Anet.

But generally speaking you naturally understand more about the distinction than you think you do, just try not to let your closeness to the subjectmatter cause you to second guess yourself.

What’s helped me avoid losing sight of the forest is judging my actions based on how they’d be perceived by an outsider looking in. I’d ask myself something painfully objective, like; “If I were to fraps this, would I put it in a multi-milliondollar TV spot advertising the game?”. Chances are if it makes the masses think GW2 is a crappy game, it’s not exactly kosher.

Re; Spykits/Portal Guns
I’m (mostly) sure those are around to act as a safety net. The problem with those items isn’t that they exist, they’re just representatives of some of the more potentially exploitable mechanics already present on players. Getting rid of Spy Kits doesn’t get rid of Stealth. What it gets rid of is the ability for anyone to have access to it. Imagine how problematic the alternative could be.

This argument can take as long to figure as it would take dealing with “Which one is first, the egg or the chicken.”
Obviously exploit is when you do something that is not anticipated by ANet. That is also the definition of player skill. So it really is a very thin line. A good player will use every tool given to them, in order to tackle a challenge, be it terrain advantage or something else. Some of the exploits I’ve seen were VERY creative, even RH was amazed by some of them.
For good or worse the spy kits are in game, with the sole purpose of shaking off agro, I don’t see other way to use them, since you can’t really move while with it. See I’m not talking for exploits of the grade of the karma merchants abuse at launch. This is an obvious exploit. But some “exploits” are just superior play skill in my opinion.

deSade.9437:

Why putting there mobs if they have to be avoided in the first place? Skipping doesn’t require much skill, just less time than actual killing.

Why skip trash? Because cleaning up trash is a chore, why do you think it is called trash. If they wanted to, they could force you to kill the trash, other MMOs tend to increase (read: multiply by 10-100) the range where dungeon mobs can leash to in order to prevent skipping, but cleaning up trash is busy work, the overwhelming majority of it can be killed by pressing your 1 skill and waiting 30s while grabbing a drink. They also removed back tracking (in quests) because it is stupid and a waste of time.

The main reason I see that they put it there in the first place is to make the dungeon look appropriate, you would expect that the main center of worship or such would be crawling with followers and guards who are ready to jump on any person who looks out of place (especially because outside their homeland just got ransacked and invaded).

Well, there is a consumable in WvW which CCs you pretty badly. I consider that an exploit and most players consider it very poor conduct to use. Yet people use them and Anet don’t ban them. Yet they have banned people for exploiting TP mechanics, karma vendors etc, all stuff that I really don’t care about. I think Anet has a very different definition of exploit to what some of us do. This thread is a testament to that simply for its existence.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Re; Spykits/Portal Guns
I’m (mostly) sure those are around to act as a safety net. The problem with those items isn’t that they exist, they’re just representatives of some of the more potentially exploitable mechanics already present on players. Getting rid of Spy Kits doesn’t get rid of Stealth. What it gets rid of is the ability for anyone to have access to it. Imagine how problematic the alternative could be.

A safety net for what? Certainly not dungeon breaking bugs and I have yet to see any dungeon paths require those things. I still haven’t done Arah p2(I think it’s p2, the one with Mursaat) but I don’t think that will require either of those mechanics either.

It looks to me like the PvE content designers decided to add some silly toys for people to mess around with but forgot to tell the dungeon and WvW designers about them.

Just out of curiosity what would you recommend to players that end up in PuGs that exploit? It’s considerably more confusing when you’ve progressed to a point and the 4/5 want to exploit and your options become leave and lose progress or continue and exploit. Chances are they will not report you for going along, but will report you for leaving.

I’ve seen people glitching out bosses, but the really questionable stuff was in Arah P2 where the party leader had the group glitch inside the map.

ComeAndSee.1356:

I’ve seen people glitching out bosses, but the really questionable stuff was in Arah P2 where the party leader had the group glitch inside the map.

The famous Ship.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

If you wouldn’t do it with a developer in your party, then it’s probably an exploit and you shouldn’t do it.

This is actually an adorable way to look at it. Next time I see something questionable I’m going to pose this to my team this and see what happens, haha.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Ari Kagura.9182:

However, there are some “grey area” glitches that makes me wonder if something really is an exploit or just a very strange bug.

When in doubt, send us an email anyways, or post on the forums. We’ll inspect it and judge it, and then decide to do something about it.

But generally when it comes to exploits, use your best judgement. One of the things my momma taught me, is that “If you wouldn’t say it around your Grandma, you shouldn’t say it in general.” which I suppose can be translated into “If you wouldn’t do it with a developer in your party, then it’s probably an exploit and you shouldn’t do it.”

While I understand your meaning, I’d actually be more inclined to do it with a developer for the ensuing comedy. xD

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Shadowfist.2708:

While I understand your meaning, I’d actually be more inclined to do it with a developer for the ensuing comedy. xD

Yeah, and upon retrospect, whenever I throw on my dev tag for a dungeon, people tend to show me exploits and point them out >.<
However I have been thoroughly amused at times. I tend to hide my dev tags when finding a PUG, and then halfway through the dungeon I will tag up, and watch everyone leave the instance within minutes.

lmao im torn between finding that hilarious or evil

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Shadowfist.2708:

While I understand your meaning, I’d actually be more inclined to do it with a developer for the ensuing comedy. xD

Yeah, and upon retrospect, whenever I throw on my dev tag for a dungeon, people tend to show me exploits and point them out >.<
However I have been thoroughly amused at times. I tend to hide my dev tags when finding a PUG, and then halfway through the dungeon I will tag up, and watch everyone leave the instance within minutes.

Are we allowed to have fun with you? :O I would totally love to talk trash to a dev.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Shadowfist.2708:

While I understand your meaning, I’d actually be more inclined to do it with a developer for the ensuing comedy. xD

Yeah, and upon retrospect, whenever I throw on my dev tag for a dungeon, people tend to show me exploits and point them out >.<
However I have been thoroughly amused at times. I tend to hide my dev tags when finding a PUG, and then halfway through the dungeon I will tag up, and watch everyone leave the instance within minutes.

The problem here being how needed some of the exploits are :x. I don’t normally like having to do something “Cheap” to beat a boss, but it’s extremely frustrating to kill a lot of bosses and content the “Designed” way. I really think when you guys go back and fix said exploits, it would be nice if you could rebalance the fights. I want to have fun and not just exploit my way through the game, but I actually want to be able to clear the dungeons too.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Shadowfist.2708:

While I understand your meaning, I’d actually be more inclined to do it with a developer for the ensuing comedy. xD

Yeah, and upon retrospect, whenever I throw on my dev tag for a dungeon, people tend to show me exploits and point them out >.<
However I have been thoroughly amused at times. I tend to hide my dev tags when finding a PUG, and then halfway through the dungeon I will tag up, and watch everyone leave the instance within minutes.

How about we tag up for that Arah we been talking about.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Shadowfist.2708:

While I understand your meaning, I’d actually be more inclined to do it with a developer for the ensuing comedy. xD

Yeah, and upon retrospect, whenever I throw on my dev tag for a dungeon, people tend to show me exploits and point them out >.<
However I have been thoroughly amused at times. I tend to hide my dev tags when finding a PUG, and then halfway through the dungeon I will tag up, and watch everyone leave the instance within minutes.

This is hilarious. And terrifying.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Yeah, and upon retrospect, whenever I throw on my dev tag for a dungeon, people tend to show me exploits and point them out >.<
However I have been thoroughly amused at times. I tend to hide my dev tags when finding a PUG, and then halfway through the dungeon I will tag up, and watch everyone leave the instance within minutes.

That’s hilarious, haha. People must go “Oh crap! The developer saw me exploit, gotta bail so he can’t ban me!!!” I’d totally run with you any day of the week, if only so I could use it as an excuse to talk to you about random dungeon design in a less formal environment.

A safety net for what?

Safety net in the sense that the only thing worse than having potentially troublesome mechanics, is having potentially troublesome mechanics that are only available to a select number of classes.

haviz.1340:

ComeAndSee.1356:

I’ve seen people glitching out bosses, but the really questionable stuff was in Arah P2 where the party leader had the group glitch inside the map.

The famous Ship.

I actually thought this was intended. I thought “How nice of Anet to take some time to design this big ship so we can use it to infiltrate the base”, until I saw the glitched textures and thought “Hey CM…”

What’s the stance on taking advantage of the landscape and the fact that NPCs can’t jump or fall down ?
For example in CM p2, Turmaine can easily get stuck on the rocks and then he won’t be able to rush towards you if you are directly in front of him but on the grass. He can still kill you, but his plague form is less harmful. Or the final boss in HotW p1 can easily be kited around the room because he absolutely wants to take the stairs while you can simply jump.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Shadowfist.2708:

While I understand your meaning, I’d actually be more inclined to do it with a developer for the ensuing comedy. xD

Yeah, and upon retrospect, whenever I throw on my dev tag for a dungeon, people tend to show me exploits and point them out >.<
However I have been thoroughly amused at times. I tend to hide my dev tags when finding a PUG, and then halfway through the dungeon I will tag up, and watch everyone leave the instance within minutes.

Dev Griefing!

However I have been thoroughly amused at times. I tend to hide my dev tags when finding a PUG, and then halfway through the dungeon I will tag up, and watch everyone leave the instance within minutes.

I’d show you every single feature instead.

Someone pointed out Mossman. Despite him being a fairly easy boss (follow the minimap and poke him with your shortbow when(/if) he goes out of stealth (I play a thief)), when someone showed me a new “exploit”, I was overjoyed. Why?

Well, he’s just very poorly designed. 10 second stealths (where he is invulnerable) followed by a oneshot attack, and 3 seconds of visibility (if we’re lucky), then 10 more seconds of stealth, etc etc. Without the exploit, he takes anywhere from 20 minutes (that’s perfect play), to an hour, and it’s not challenging and nor is it fun. It’s just tedious. So of course, when someone showed me a new exploit, I tried it. And every time I run fractals and Mossman with a pick-up group, I’m extremely tempted to suggest that we exploit just because of the poor design of the boss.

Fever.9830:

Someone pointed out Mossman. Despite him being a fairly easy boss (follow the minimap and poke him with your shortbow when(/if) he goes out of stealth (I play a thief)), when someone showed me a new “exploit”, I was overjoyed. Why?

Well, he’s just very poorly designed. 10 second stealths (where he is invulnerable) followed by a oneshot attack, and 3 seconds of visibility (if we’re lucky), then 10 more seconds of stealth, etc etc. Without the exploit, he takes anywhere from 20 minutes (that’s perfect play), to an hour, and it’s not challenging and nor is it fun. It’s just tedious. So of course, when someone showed me a new exploit, I tried it. And every time I run fractals and Mossman with a pick-up group, I’m extremely tempted to suggest that we exploit just because of the poor design of the boss.

This ^ I agree 100%

There are some bosses in this game that are not hard, but take a very long time to kill. When using an exploit, the majority of people dont do it because they can’t kill the boss in the legit way, they do it because its faster!

So all this exploit hunt and all of you that say exploits are bad and ruining the game, please reconsider. I’m not saying that exploits are something good or that everyone should use them, but the fact that the exploits generally do the fights faster not easier its something to think about.

The devs should consider this and not only fix the exploits but think about why the people use them. If a boss its easy but has a lot of HP and goes invis half the time, or uses a single skill very often, this boss is not a challenge, its simply boring. So if it takes an exploit to kill it faster, why not?

Bottom line… don’t just fix exploits, try and think why the players use them. If they want to make the fight shorter, maybe reduce the boss hp? I enjoy a good challenge, i wouldn’t change Lupicus because its challenging and its fun. I would change Alpha tho, because its plain stupid.

codpin.6542:

So all this exploit hunt and all of you that say exploits are bad and ruining the game, please reconsider. I’m not saying that exploits are something good or that everyone should use them, but the fact that the exploits generally do the fights faster not easier its something to think about.

Exploits make the fights easier…at the very least they aren’t making them harder or PuGs wouldn’t use them. That’s the main reason exploits are used : to make things easier. Like in CM p1 when players kill the thief boss by jumping through glitched textures (don’t know if it was fixed).
And sometime exploits aren’t making things faster at all like in SE p1 or AC stairs.

I don’t know about Mossman, it’s been a while since I’ve did the swamp fractal and I rarely do fractals (only at level 7 I think).

i will miss some of the “fixed” exploits.. thats for sure..
cm mountain climbing, or hotw deep diving..
it was fun while it lasted :’D

RedStar.4218:

.
And sometime exploits aren’t making things faster at all like in SE p1 or AC stairs.

I’m not talking about “lazy” exploits. The AC stairs one was a kitten one. That boss is so easy why would you want to fight him only ranged and make the fight last 3 times longer is beyond me. Used it only once, because the 4 other guys didnt want it to do it melee.

It’s the same in Arah p3 first boss, people used to climb a rock and take him down with ranged attacks. Its way easier and faster if some1 takes the hunter away so the other 4 can focus the main boss. These kind of exploits are stupid to say at least.

But for example, take the Ooze boss from arah p1. If you do it legit way, then it becomes a kiteing fest and most of the time people will get knocked down and it takes too dam long to kill it, because the stability will only take you so far. If you exploit it, the fight becomes 2-3 times faster. Not easier, its easy to do it the legit way because the damage that the boss deals is trivial, but it takes longer.

See where i’m heading?

Fever.9830:

Someone pointed out Mossman. Despite him being a fairly easy boss (follow the minimap and poke him with your shortbow when(/if) he goes out of stealth (I play a thief)), when someone showed me a new “exploit”, I was overjoyed. Why?

Well, he’s just very poorly designed. 10 second stealths (where he is invulnerable) followed by a oneshot attack, and 3 seconds of visibility (if we’re lucky), then 10 more seconds of stealth, etc etc. Without the exploit, he takes anywhere from 20 minutes (that’s perfect play), to an hour, and it’s not challenging and nor is it fun. It’s just tedious. So of course, when someone showed me a new exploit, I tried it. And every time I run fractals and Mossman with a pick-up group, I’m extremely tempted to suggest that we exploit just because of the poor design of the boss.

I’m going to run this marathon, but all you do is run so I’m going to use a shortcut, because running is just boring.

Conner.4702:

Fever.9830:

Someone pointed out Mossman. Despite him being a fairly easy boss (follow the minimap and poke him with your shortbow when(/if) he goes out of stealth (I play a thief)), when someone showed me a new “exploit”, I was overjoyed. Why?

Well, he’s just very poorly designed. 10 second stealths (where he is invulnerable) followed by a oneshot attack, and 3 seconds of visibility (if we’re lucky), then 10 more seconds of stealth, etc etc. Without the exploit, he takes anywhere from 20 minutes (that’s perfect play), to an hour, and it’s not challenging and nor is it fun. It’s just tedious. So of course, when someone showed me a new exploit, I tried it. And every time I run fractals and Mossman with a pick-up group, I’m extremely tempted to suggest that we exploit just because of the poor design of the boss.

I’m going to run this marathon, but all you do is run so I’m going to use a shortcut, because running is just boring.

Wow, a thousand internets to you for that analogy, my friend. You’re genius.

Conner.4702:

I’m going to run this marathon, but all you do is run so I’m going to use a shortcut, because running is just boring.

Since we are doing analogies here, then i guess you would find very fun and entertaining if the entire Olympic Games would be just marathons. Nothing else… just this.

Robert you should transfer to european servers, so people can meet you there, too.

Malediktus.9250:

Robert you should transfer to european servers, so people can meet you there, too.

Well, Rob could just guest there…. Oh wait, nevermind.

codpin.6542:

Conner.4702:

I’m going to run this marathon, but all you do is run so I’m going to use a shortcut, because running is just boring.

Since we are doing analogies here, then i guess you would find very fun and entertaining if the entire Olympic Games would be just marathons. Nothing else… just this.

Except it wouldn’t be accurate now would it. You know this, but feel the need to justify your cheating.

The Olympic Games would be the entire game. Dungeon running would be 1 event AKA marathon.

Any exploit that’s a “Jumping Puzzle” and doesn’t specifically bug out is legit in my books. As such I consider the mountain jump in CM legit. Skipping the fire in AC is legit. Standing on top of the ruin so Howling King in AC doesn’t hit you is an exploit.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

When in doubt, send us an email anyways, or post on the forums. We’ll inspect it and judge it, and then decide to do something about it.

But generally when it comes to exploits, use your best judgement. One of the things my momma taught me, is that “If you wouldn’t say it around your Grandma, you shouldn’t say it in general.” which I suppose can be translated into “If you wouldn’t do it with a developer in your party, then it’s probably an exploit and you shouldn’t do it.”

Thanks for the response, Robert. I guess I’ll report any anomalies that I come across and let you guys be the judge.

On a personal note, I’d like to run a dungeon or two with you some time. It would be interesting to have a casual chat with an Anet developer while doing dungeons. Also: I just find it somewhat hilarious that you would turn on your Anet Logo tag midway through the dungeon and see their reactions. I’m under the assumption that you would do this right after a potential exploit has been performed by the group. It’s almost like how undercover officers work. I wonder what other reactions occur if some choose to stick around instead of leaving in fear that their account could be banned. Although, it’s good to know that the developers run around the world and actually play the game that they developed. It’s great to see to see them around!

I added you to my friend’s list, but I’m assuming you actually use an inconspicuous personal account instead of your work account to play online, which might be the reason why I never see you online. :o

codpin.6542:

This ^ I agree 100%

There are some bosses in this game that are not hard, but take a very long time to kill. When using an exploit, the majority of people dont do it because they can’t kill the boss in the legit way, they do it because its faster!

So all this exploit hunt and all of you that say exploits are bad and ruining the game, please reconsider. I’m not saying that exploits are something good or that everyone should use them, but the fact that the exploits generally do the fights faster not easier its something to think about.

The devs should consider this and not only fix the exploits but think about why the people use them. If a boss its easy but has a lot of HP and goes invis half the time, or uses a single skill very often, this boss is not a challenge, its simply boring. So if it takes an exploit to kill it faster, why not?

Bottom line… don’t just fix exploits, try and think why the players use them. If they want to make the fight shorter, maybe reduce the boss hp? I enjoy a good challenge, i wouldn’t change Lupicus because its challenging and its fun. I would change Alpha tho, because its plain stupid.

I would agree for the most part in regards to Mossman. I have yet to see Mossman’s new exploit in action (mostly because my semi-static progression group keeps getting Bloomhunger for the past week or so), but the one time I did get Mossman, I have to admit it was refreshing to actually fight him legit again, but also realized how annoying that boss was mostly due to those mentioned mechanics. I mean, I can AoE-spam a stealth Thief in PvP and hope it actually hits but I can’t AoE-spam a stealth Mossman and hope for it to be meaningful. Personally, I think the way how stealth works in this game is a bit inconsistent, but that’s just me.

Back to Mossman, I think his HP should be lowered somewhat and his double-axe attack weakened a bit. Perhaps his cooldown on his stealth ability should be increased so that he doesn’t go into stealth often.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Shadowfist.2708:

While I understand your meaning, I’d actually be more inclined to do it with a developer for the ensuing comedy. xD

Yeah, and upon retrospect, whenever I throw on my dev tag for a dungeon, people tend to show me exploits and point them out >.<
However I have been thoroughly amused at times. I tend to hide my dev tags when finding a PUG, and then halfway through the dungeon I will tag up, and watch everyone leave the instance within minutes.

Reminds me of wearing transmuted “Worn Chain”-gear in Arah and then swapping to real ones after Lupicus. I haven’t been able to make them leave though but I have got kicked plenty of times, usually before the first boss.

marnick.4305:

Any exploit that’s a “Jumping Puzzle” and doesn’t specifically bug out is legit in my books. As such I consider the mountain jump in CM legit. Skipping the fire in AC is legit. Standing on top of the ruin so Howling King in AC doesn’t hit you is an exploit.

You can fall through textures, be stuck by invisible walls, the whole thing screams that you shouldn’t be there, yet you compare it to something as trivial as the jump in AC ?

[quote=1467328;marnick.4305:][quote=1466673;codpin.6542:]

That’s curious. It’s all about what you guys deem an exploit, but you keep using the word intended. When does something that isn’t intended cross over from a ‘clever trick’ to being an ‘exploit’? Here’s a good example. In the bomb running part of CoF p2, there are a couple jumps that can be done to circumvent most of the running through of the turrets and the mobs. These jumps, however, are difficult, and if done wrong can cost you valuable time during the event (an event that is honestly pretty easy either way). They don’t go out of the geometry of the map, but they do involve some wall jumping. Would you consider these tricky jumps exploits simply because they are unintended, or would you consider them clever players coming up with clever solutions to problems? When does it “cross the line”?

This is mostly a theoretical discussion, honestly, because most exploits are pretty obvious when they are seen. “Obviously when the boss gets attacked and cannot attack you back, it’s an exploit” and so forth. These edge cases, however, really test the philosophy in place, and I think are interesting to consider.

That said, let me suggest a totally jump puzzle oriented dungeon at some point that has a million tricks and side-paths that can be used if you’re particularly good at jumping. It would be perhaps the most enjoyable thing in the game for me (and players like me). Being rewarded for thinking outside of the box is something GW2 currently doesn’t do, and I think that’d make the game experience (dungeon experience in particular) that much more rewarding if it did.