Guild Wars 2

Leo G.4501:

My personal opinion: you favor alt-swapping so I don’t really care what you think. Alt-swapping, in my opinion, is cheating because the character did no work to get any rewards…. bla bla bla…

Think of it this way: the character did no effort for that reward, the player did! So if I, the player, do the effort to finish a dungeon and then choose to distribute that reward/experience to another character that belongs to me, you think i exploit?

What is wrong with you ppl?

Also, the alt swapping is generally used only on easy bosses, like you find in AC, TA or any other almost afk boss. Also it is used in arah, after you kill lupicus in path3, you can bring another 80 alt for the last boss because its that easy. I have no problem when people swap alts if they contributed to the dungeon before that. I dont even request a heads up as long as that person has common sense.

Another thing is the fact that most “elitists” dont even want to group with someone who is not 80, even for AC! So how can a player level up an alt through dungeons when finding a group for a sub 80 char is that hard? He does it with his main and then he swaps his alt for the last 20% of the boss. Plus the whole dungeon run is a bit faster because you do it with a 80 and not with a lowbie. Its a win win situation.

codpin.6542:

What is wrong with you ppl?

I’d ask what’s wrong with you. It doesn’t take a genius to realize exp rewards aren’t meant to be shared. If they were, dungeons would reward you with jugs of liquid experience. You can’t swap to an alt in the middle of a heart quest and get the bonus xp either, what makes you think this is any different?

Don’t care how afk’able a boss is, that just means the boss needs to be adjusted so it’s NOT afk’able.

codpin.6542:

Another thing is the fact that most “elitists” dont even want to group with someone who is not 80, even for AC! So how can a player level up an alt through dungeons when finding a group for a sub 80 char is that hard? He does it with his main and then he swaps his alt for the last 20% of the boss. Plus the whole dungeon run is a bit faster because you do it with a 80 and not with a lowbie. Its a win win situation.

I don’t like the direction dungeons are going due to the farming, but that doesn’t justify exploiting a system. Nor is the presence of an exploitable system justification for turning your nose up to players doing dungeons on the level.

Leo G.4501:

I’d ask what’s wrong with you. It doesn’t take a genius to realize exp rewards aren’t meant to be shared. If they were, dungeons would reward you with jugs of liquid experience. You can’t swap to an alt in the middle of a heart quest and get the bonus xp either, what makes you think this is any different?

Don’t care how afk’able a boss is, that just means the boss needs to be adjusted so it’s NOT afk’able.

Is it still considered an exploit if you switch before the boss and actually contribute to the fight? If so, how is that different that someone leaving at that point and another player jumping in?

I’m not running an invisible tally of your contribution, and you can’t reach a point where you’ve “done enough”. I’m your teammate, not a bloody Event NPC.

im interested in whether TA leaf jumping or CM p2 plague guy bugging is considered an exploit? because technically they can still attack you

Linguistically Inept.6583:

im interested in whether TA leaf jumping or CM p2 plague guy bugging is considered an exploit? because technically they can still attack you

I was about to ask the same question!

SynfulChaot.3169:

Leo G.4501:

I’d ask what’s wrong with you. It doesn’t take a genius to realize exp rewards aren’t meant to be shared. If they were, dungeons would reward you with jugs of liquid experience. You can’t swap to an alt in the middle of a heart quest and get the bonus xp either, what makes you think this is any different?

Don’t care how afk’able a boss is, that just means the boss needs to be adjusted so it’s NOT afk’able.

Is it still considered an exploit if you switch before the boss and actually contribute to the fight? If so, how is that different that someone leaving at that point and another player jumping in?

This is why the likelyhood of this being changed is small. That’s a grey area and would be determined by intent. Why did you swap for the encounter? If you discovered your team needed specific support or more damage otherwise you face a challenge you may or may not succeed, I’d say the gesture isn’t exploiting but it is non-the-less cheap because I’m positive any encounter is accomplishable with whatever set-up got you to that encounter.

If you’re swapping because you know the boss is easy and you just want the xp on another character so swap and throw in some random attacks to count as contributing, feels like spitting in the face of those that put effort into their entire performance vs those that slack off at the very end.

Vox Hollow.2736:

I’m your teammate, not a bloody Event NPC.

How does this respect your teammate in return? Is turning a blind eye to you cheating the encounter and exploiting the reward system your version of respect? It’s like ignoring a friend who happens to bully unpopular kids right in front of you just because everyone else does. Don’t care how unpopular someone is, bullying isn’t okay and I’m going to discourage my friends not to. This extends to the game and various other exploits. If I’m running with guildies or people I’ve talked/teamed with before, I’m going to request they don’t cheat encounters, not to swap alts, etc. because it is just cheating the rewards system.

That said, I’m simply going to request it. If someone feels an encounter is truly hopeless or really really wants to get his dungeon gear tonight but has hit DR, it’s not like I didn’t try…and I feel I did my part. That part being discouraging such action, as it’s impossible to stop it without the dev’s taking a hand in it. If a problem within the game is exploitable but not crazy popular, the likelihood of it being quickly patched is minimal…and with less crazy exploiting, there’s less outcry whenever it possibly gets fixed. Imagine if everyone used the stairs in AC to take out Howling King? Imagine the outcry after it eventually gets fixed. Thank goodness there are players in the community that can easily play this content straight otherwise any little change my be followed by so much RAGE everyone would be lost.

You keep saying things with such a passion that I’m starting to think you actually consider this game your second reality. This is just a game! Why do you try to force people to play in a certain way?

If i want to power level my alt through dungeons while also contributing to that dungeon with my main, i will do it. I dont understand why so much drama on this subject.

Just play the game the way you enjoy it and let others do the same.

Leo G.4501:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Is it still considered an exploit if you switch before the boss and actually contribute to the fight? If so, how is that different that someone leaving at that point and another player jumping in?

This is why the likelyhood of this being changed is small. That’s a grey area and would be determined by intent. Why did you swap for the encounter? If you discovered your team needed specific support or more damage otherwise you face a challenge you may or may not succeed, I’d say the gesture isn’t exploiting but it is non-the-less cheap because I’m positive any encounter is accomplishable with whatever set-up got you to that encounter.

If you’re swapping because you know the boss is easy and you just want the xp on another character so swap and throw in some random attacks to count as contributing, feels like spitting in the face of those that put effort into their entire performance vs those that slack off at the very end.

When I am speaking of contributing I am speaking of bringing in a chara at or above the suggested level and fully contributing during the entirety of the boss battle.

codpin.6542:

You keep saying things with such a passion that I’m starting to think you actually consider this game your second reality. This is just a game! Why do you try to force people to play in a certain way?

If i want to power level my alt through dungeons while also contributing to that dungeon with my main, i will do it. I dont understand why so much drama on this subject.

Just play the game the way you enjoy it and let others do the same.

Just because I state my opinion, I must state it in a matter-of-factly way so as not to make it seem like I’m absorbed in the game? Sorry if I have an opinion I actually believe in.

And I’m not infringing on your way to play. Notice the majority of people will side with me in the fact, if you swap alts without asking in the middle of a boss encounter, you’ll be the rude one and at fault for any tension that action creates. So, if you ask for permission to swap alts, I’ll simply say no. If others on the team chip in and disagree, I can either accept or quit and if the team agrees with me, then you can either accept or quit.

How is that infringing on your way of playing? And how can you not accept that someone has a differing perspective/playstyle from you?

SynfulChaot.3169:

Leo G.4501:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Is it still considered an exploit if you switch before the boss and actually contribute to the fight? If so, how is that different that someone leaving at that point and another player jumping in?

This is why the likelyhood of this being changed is small. That’s a grey area and would be determined by intent. Why did you swap for the encounter? If you discovered your team needed specific support or more damage otherwise you face a challenge you may or may not succeed, I’d say the gesture isn’t exploiting but it is non-the-less cheap because I’m positive any encounter is accomplishable with whatever set-up got you to that encounter.

If you’re swapping because you know the boss is easy and you just want the xp on another character so swap and throw in some random attacks to count as contributing, feels like spitting in the face of those that put effort into their entire performance vs those that slack off at the very end.

When I am speaking of contributing I am speaking of bringing in a chara at or above the suggested level and fully contributing during the entirety of the boss battle.

Like I said, grey. You can make up many excuses why you decided to swap characters during/before an encounter. I still find it cheap but when the cookie crumbles, it crumbles. I’m not going to call you out for your decision, if it was necessary or not. Regardless, you’re still taking advantage of the reward system. I feel it’s cheap but not wholly danging…I simply hope a change eventually occurs that discourages it (maybe creating diminishing returns on xp upon swap and/or transfer diminishing returns on rewards from one char to another for instances).

Any fix for the exploits of Mossman (people going below bridge and hitting him while he does nothing), last boss of colossus (people going inside his model to make him drop hammers), and the Jade Maw tentacle kill from rocks to skip the windrider part…?

You misunderstand me, Leo.

I’m not saying ’I’m not keeping track of your contribution’ in the sense that I’m not being vigilant.

I mean it in the sense that the other people in a group are teammates, not NPCs doling out gold medallions of participation. It’s not possible to somehow ‘win’ alt-swapping from your teammates. people feel very strongly about this one way or the other, and progress in a dungeon has no bearing on that.

Leo G.4501:

SynfulChaot.3169:

When I am speaking of contributing I am speaking of bringing in a chara at or above the suggested level and fully contributing during the entirety of the boss battle.

Like I said, grey. You can make up many excuses why you decided to swap characters during/before an encounter. I still find it cheap but when the cookie crumbles, it crumbles. I’m not going to call you out for your decision, if it was necessary or not. Regardless, you’re still taking advantage of the reward system. I feel it’s cheap but not wholly danging…I simply hope a change eventually occurs that discourages it (maybe creating diminishing returns on xp upon swap and/or transfer diminishing returns on rewards from one char to another for instances).

I think most do this to better contribute to the rest of the run for it to go faster. If they did not feel the need to bring the utility of their other chara, they might otherwise run their lower level chara for the entirety of the dungeon..

I, personally, only do this in AC when the group does not have an elementalist as Frost Bow is just too useful not to bring for the burrows.

Vox Hollow.2736:

You misunderstand me, Leo.

I’m not saying ’I’m not keeping track of your contribution’ in the sense that I’m not being vigilant.

I mean it in the sense that the other people in a group are teammates, not NPCs doling out gold medallions of participation. It’s not possible to somehow ‘win’ alt-swapping from your teammates. people feel very strongly about this one way or the other, and progress in a dungeon has no bearing on that.

Perhaps I overgeneralized your position then, but I’m still unclear what you mean.

But my main point is how the reward system was intended – risk/reward, effort and all that jazz. Logically speaking, the dungeons are rewarding specific currency for the contributions of your character, not you as the player. If they were meant to advance you, the player, then they’d be set up that way (see: tokens, laurels, bank system, etc), but the game is not set up to transfer experience points for a reason. I can’t stock up skill points and throw them on an alt so I can start with all utilities (fractal relics not included). My waypoints aren’t unlocked just because I have an 80 that explored that area. On the contrary, the game expects you to gain your skill points through character specific means, as well as waypoints, map completion and experience points. Swapping alts is just a way to circumvent that intent.

Again, just stating my opinion. If they wanted you to be able to transfer exp to other characters, they’d have made some option available. The current system is meant to aid those that lose connection during an instance, not to swap to other characters for rewards.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Leo G.4501:

SynfulChaot.3169:

When I am speaking of contributing I am speaking of bringing in a chara at or above the suggested level and fully contributing during the entirety of the boss battle.

Like I said, grey. You can make up many excuses why you decided to swap characters during/before an encounter. I still find it cheap but when the cookie crumbles, it crumbles. I’m not going to call you out for your decision, if it was necessary or not. Regardless, you’re still taking advantage of the reward system. I feel it’s cheap but not wholly danging…I simply hope a change eventually occurs that discourages it (maybe creating diminishing returns on xp upon swap and/or transfer diminishing returns on rewards from one char to another for instances).

I think most do this to better contribute to the rest of the run for it to go faster. If they did not feel the need to bring the utility of their other chara, they might otherwise run their lower level chara for the entirety of the dungeon..

I, personally, only do this in AC when the group does not have an elementalist as Frost Bow is just too useful not to bring for the burrows.

But that’s the thing, it can be done without frost bows. It might be harder for some set-ups but it’s still doable. In which case, if you wanted an easier time with the dungeon, why not have played with your elementalist? Or you could just make due with what you have. Not going on about the ethics either way, I just prefer doing things without resorting to the same tricks.

But speaking of Ice Bow, I’m loving it for Uncategorized fractal. Basically, Ice bow is good for 2 things: hitting structures with a large enough hitbox to take most of the bolts, or on tiny platforms where the bolts have no other space to hit but the platform because they can’t target open air. 2 people alternating ice storm basically just frog leap that part although in some instances, the bolts will land on adjacent platforms from your target.

Still, it’s hardly the only or even best option to deal with that situation.

Thanks for the responses everyone! It’ll take me some time to read through some of these posts individually but it seems like today’s topic in this matter is: Swapping Characters in regards to the term of exploiting.

As Robert said, it’s currently not an exploit under Anet’s definition of such term, but like many things in this game, that could be subject to change; similar to the controversy behind selling dungeon spots, which is still a legal thing to do at this time but may not be in the future.

However, I’d say there’s some moralities behind such issue. Come to think of it, I think there are more or less some moral issues when you end up in a party that resorts to these exploits and exploit-like behaviors. There are always a lot of questions for anti-exploiters like:

• If you want to leave:
  • Is it worth sacrificing the end-reward tokens and coin by leaving the group that resorts to such tactics?
• If you want to stay:
  • What am I risking should I perform this exploit? Will one of the pugs “narc” on me if I do this trick?
  • What if I don’t want to do the exploit? How should I react to a team full of exploiters?

In regards to staying, the worst-case scenario is having your account banned for a certain period of time or permanently if you choose to exploit; though that would generally happen if you performed certain exploits to an extreme amount as opposed to doing it just casually, whether on purpose or on accident. If you don’t want to exploit, but want to stay in the group, then you could end up being reported for “Griefing” by not cooperating with your teammates if they want to exploit. It’s awkward how that works, but last time I checked, the in-game reporting tool currently only checks the chatlogs. I don’t think it has the capability of reenacting the actions of the group as it happens, though I could be wrong.

The choices are tough, but if you pug content, I’d say let your teammates know at the beginning of the run that you don’t like exploiting then go from there. It would be then be up to the group members of how they want to treat you. But if the group does decide to keep you around, the next issue would be trying to determine the difference between an exploit and a tactical advantage, which is what spawned this thread in the first place.

As Robert mentioned, it’s up to him to plug the exploit but it’s up to someone else to determine what kind of punishment should be dealt, if applicable.

Back to the point of Switching Characters before the final boss is dead— I think I should be known of it before the actual run begins. That way, I’ll have a clearer choice of whether to start up the dungeon, boot you out, or find another group. Switching characters without letting anyone know is just bad form.

Features, features everywhere.

Leo G.4501:

My personal opinion: you favor alt-swapping so I don’t really care what you think. Alt-swapping, in my opinion, is cheating because the character did no work to get any rewards and is exploiting a system that is in place to help players with connections who inevitably drops from time to time. The only reason it isn’t viewed as a terrible exploit ‘currently’ is because there is no way to code the game to disallow it and it hasn’t become an huge issue yet.
.

the character didn’t but the player did. You decide which is more important

Leo G.4501:

Alt-swapping, in my opinion, is cheating because the character did no work to get any rewards and is exploiting a system that is in place to help players with connections who inevitably drops from time to time.

Well, that’s just like, your opinion, man.