Guild Wars 2

There are plenty of positives and negatives with the dungeons; what do you all think is wrong/ right with them SPECIFICALLY. There are plenty of people spouting “too hard” or “this is awesome!”, don’t be that guy. Give ANet some serious feedback. For example:

Bad: Some mobs/bosses have health that dwarves the majority of others. I spent over 40 minutes killing Kubu and his golems in Sorrow’s Embrace, and we were totally aware of the one golem healing from conditions, yes. When a boss has used all of their abilities dozens of times and is still alive, it ceases to be fun.

Bad: 2/3 runs of Citadel of Flame story mode, other players couldn’t see the cinematics.

Good: The dungeons are the only PvE I’ve found that makes all of the game’s unique mechanisms necessary to win. Utilizing combos, dodging, the downed state, etc. I love these things, and the dungeons provide difficult enough content to force my group to coordinate and improve as a team.

Good: Storytelling is great. The cinematics aren’t long enough to be intrusive to gameplay, there’s plenty of in-game dialogue and easter eggs for the rare player that doesn’t just ZERG everything in the game. Plus, the art, music, ambiance, unique bosses, sooo much good here!

Finally, another Bad: There’s no good reason not to make multiple difficulties. Many of the dungeons are simply too difficult for a large chunk of the playerbase. You see all the “QQ I’m not willing to improve my skill, I just want fun handed to me!” posts on this forum and every other one. WoW made easy modes in WotLK and they peaked on subscribers; they made Cataclysm harder and lost millions. Learn from others…

Good: story, difficulty in general
I like challenge and tbh even in hair-pulling moments I fealt like what I need to do is improve, strategise, look at my skills and discover something my group could use. I loved it, apart from some bosses that simply felt totally out of place dificulty wise.
I’d really love to NOT see them nerfed

Bad: token rewards.
The amount of times one needs to repeat the dungeons to get anything is ridiculous.
Thanks, but no thanks. It’s not worth my time, especially since there are so many other places in this game that I can actually have fun.
The runs, eben the 20th run, needs to be rewarding in a tangible way.
One-two runs per item still will make you repear the dungeon doezens of times for armour only, then for sigils, weapon sets (I like to have many!) etc.

Bad: token rewards from bosses
Each next boss should give a higher reward. As it stands now, many people choose easiest bosses / routs, kill them once then re-run. This is silly. I don’t want to do it but I have to if I want to PUG, and because of all the issues with the dungeons my guildies don’t really run them often.
Last boss should give the biggest reward.

Bad: story mode difficulty and rewards
Story mode seems a bit on the hard size, especialy for some bosses, and it gives no reward neither for completing it nor for helping out a friend.
You HAVE to complete SM to do explorable. I love to help my friends, but really, after I’ve done my own story mode, the best i get out of there is a repair bill. And sometimes they are not interested in that mode at all, they just want to “have it done with” to do explorables.
I’d like to see story mode toned down and / or give some more meaningful rewards, also for re-runs. Maybe a small amout of tokems (compared to explorable reward, and only at the last boss) once a day?

I agree with the concept of an easy mode.
The people that are complaining are complaining because they are not having fun. that is a valid issue. the reason for it may be chicken kittenlove but “not fun” is valid.

Currently I am all for a training wheels mode for AC. that is substantially easier and has substantially less reward.

The multiple difficulties is actually a good idea and with the higher difficulty the better loot. But wait, this game isn’t about loot or gear… So than what would you get from having different difficulties? Better exp?

It’s not about great but gear is cool. I think the biggest reward from ac story mode is the near level of experience

BAD: rewards are just bad and tokens are too few for the effort

Games are about fun. It’s design 101. Frustrating is not fun. These dungeons are not fun. I hear alot of me and my guild, which predicates experience with experienced players. But the new people to the game (be it an MMO veteran or new to the genre) want to get the experience too without the level of commitment of being in the right guild or right groups of people. The need to play hours and hours to understand the mechanics when they shouldn’t have to be masters of tactics of their characters until at least endgame content. And even at end game shouldn’t those who wish to be more casual have a right (or expect a right) to enjoy all the content they purchased?

Your dungeons right now are built for hardcore players. That’s fine if they are your audience. I don’t know of an MMO that has been very successful catering to the hardcore. They are vocal, supportive and demanding on the other player base to love everything they love. That’s fine if the fiscal base they bring is the audience you want.

It seems though that successful MMO’s balance the need to give carrots to the hardcore on occassion without alienating the casual players who generate the real revenue engine. And the things that bring more casual players is fun. Fun is not dying endlessly where every advantage they try is already blocked and beaten. It basically decries a game designer who wishes to show how smart they are and how inferior those who fail are. This type of game design is not fun and has a long line of failures in MMO’s to date.

Challenging is not limiting the level of a player so they can’t get a natural advantage and then OP the Mobs to ridiculous proportions. That satisfies hardcore players and those on the other end typically walk away with a bad taste in their mouth.

My suggestion is to make the dungeons workable to PUGs. If you make levels of difficulty that’s fine, but one problem with that is then dividing your player base into camps who alienate others for lack of experience, play style and other attributes.

A system to find groups for dungeons would be great too. Sitting in an area shouting out for groups is boring and once again not very fun for all involved. When finding a group should be a one click process.

Casual people love challenges as much as hardcore fans the difference is in the amount of time they are willing to commit to overcome them. You already scale everything in the game so why not put a sliding scale to let those who want to find a challenge reduce their level to where they feel challenged. Right now I feel frustration in dungeons as I know I can’t level my character above the dungeon level. Why should I feel this way? If the dungeon level is 30 why is it different than a level 30 explorer area?

These are just basic feelings as to the general makeup of the dungeons. On top of that there are real bugs that put parties in different instances of a dungeon. Friendly NPC’s who are better left dead. Healing is inadequate many times since you are trying to eliminate healing roles.

Bottom line to me is this: I’m a casual player of MMO’s. I play with my wife and we have fun together. We’ve played Everquest I & II, WoW, DDO, FF11, FF14, DC Universe. They are fun to play with but the only two I have stuck with a long time had instances that were fun. We’ve been willing to contribute in dollars to where I’m having fun and to let go of those I’m not. Right now the game is pretty but being able to bond with players in PUG’s and dungeon instances has always been my main attractions and currently this game is not passing that test.

Done AC, CM and TA story modes… never failed to complete it. And these were all with PUG s.

The problem i see it and i stated in my own post is the lack of " teaching " and " easing " into the difficulty. The real issue is that when you go into AC you are instantly SLAUGHTERED with out remorse, if you are not spec’d right, have proper team set up, and know exactally what you are walking into its a nightmare.

PUGs? laughable concept you are not pugging those… not with out a gaint repair bill which brights me to my second point. Alot of the content is designed around idea of zerging down certain enemies or running back if you die because your team simply can not take time need to rez a dead player. So what ends up happening is you get handed a GIANT repair bill by the end of it.

I’m not ameture to gaming or mmos but entire idea that every single enemy in a dungeon should have the ability to one shot anyone they look at is to me at least, a terrible idea. Trash should NEVER be harder then the bosses in question either, and i really wish devs would get that through there head. Its not epic to get killed by minion 341 and yet roflstomp the boss in a few mins.

Additionally Anet said during betas was no longer a trinity but is CLEARLY a bold faced lie. Sure the trinity has changed its face, and concept behind it BUT clearly still there. Still going to need certain roles to succeed, and if you dont have them you will get smashed into the ground SO hard its not funny.

Right now i have no desire to do dungeons not so much because they are difficult but because of the general design behind them. I am just not kind of guy enjoys being killed by every tom joe and harry that looks at me funny. Its same reason i hated Diablo 3, and whole focus on random elite mobs being often more difficult then the boss in question. If going to make an enemy one shot a player needs to be very specific needs to be telegraphed and player needs time to avoid it. Right now… alot of enemies just dont give you that chance… have a split second to react and even then they will often dog you till you die even if you pop every defensive move you have.

Fixes
1: tone down general damage in dungeons so people are not being killed by every mob they cross. If going to have a boss basic attack one shot people need to be kiteable so squishier classes can actually stay away from them. I have seen way to many bosses are immune to CC effects( i assume means chill, and such as well i could be wrong i honestly havent tested it) and stop giving every mob 150% run speed or some crap like that REALLY annoying to have 25% base move while in air attunement and STILL have every mob catch me like i’m moving half there speed.

2: adding a general " block " mechanic might be a good idea. In DCUO a very action oriented game, was a basic block everyone had reduced damage by half when they got focused on could use this mechanic to reduce damage till there team could help them. Adding a basic block function i think would be a great mechanic allowing reduction of damage but inability to attack or make any offensive or defensive abilities. could even give shield users some extra benefit while using a shield and blocking.

3: tone down particle effects they are way way way out of hand. Total Biscuit warned you guys MONTHS ago that this was an issue and you obviously didnt heed his warning. This needs to be fixed,

4: Make bosses insta gib animations more noticeable, and give players more then a second to react. Right now are way to many cases where red circle appears and i am dead or worse i am CC’d from circle appearing and killed a second later(i’m looking at you giant fire ele dynamic event).

5: get away from insta gibbing mechanics… i realize you think giving enemies massive damage and insta killing functions makes a game hard but it really doesn’t…what it does is punish any player doesnt have insane reflexes and makes no mistakes. It is far more enjoyable to face an enemy and trade a few hits here and there before i die, let me experience a battle enjoy a fight and not kill me because boss sneezed on me. I really cant stress how much of a turn off insta killing mechanic is for me…

6: finally… if going to require players to have a certain trait/gear/spec combination for this content i HIGHLY suggest you give us some kind of dual spec system. As it stands no way every class/spec can run this stuff so if you expect us to switch spec every time we do one we SERIOUSLY need a way to swap from a general solo spec to group spec when needed with out having to sink more cash into a trainer.

These are my thoughts on current dungeons and way they feel as of now… i am saddend that i have no desire to grind my face against a saw blade to do these dungeons. Its detrimental to my leveling and a right pain in thekittento deal with over all. Additionally unless insta gibbing mobs go away i just cant see myself doing this stuff… i do not consider insane damage a difficulty factor… give enemies unique mechanics, make the AI smarter, add mechanics make us think more rather then " splat " mechanics…

-Lokai-

I love your idea especially at Fix statements, Lokai. I hope ANET should see these and improve the dungeons in future patches
another Fix for me is
There are too much waypoints in the dungeon, they should remove some of waypoints from the dungeons because I feel less challenging when I die I just warp back to waypoint and marching back to zerg the bosses again. Also making resurection downed allies become pointless

you guys are so negative. Its really not that hard to do. It just requires being able to learn how my character works in a group which is good for every aspect of the game.
I feel that for the most part AC story is exactly the right difficultly level.
I PUG’d it many times and i want to play it more.
I think it is fun. A lot of fun.
There is a whole world of easy mode to do so if you like easy instances with a trinity… well honestly there are games that do that.

Good: Actual difficulty of the dungeons, makes most bosses more than just pressing a buton.
Good: Managed to remove the holy trinity without being a mess.
Bad: Loot, not talking about gear treadmill, I rarely get greens from dungeons, let alone blues, there’s really no point of repeating storymode.
Bad: Some aspects are way overtuned, the dogs in TA come to mind.
Bad: Waypoint system in dungeons needs to change.

Good: The Story
Good: They are challenging…

Bad: The only reason they are difficult is because the mobs and bosses are cheap with ridiculously high hitpoints and damage. It’s artificial difficulty.

Bad: Worthless NPCs in story mode. It’s hard to see why Destiny’s Edge is considered so great when they don’t do anything but die and advance the story in dungeons.

Bad: The loot. I have gotten some decent gear but find it very irritating when I open a chest and find 1 COPPER. Also, it would be nice to get a different award for a change rather than the same hat I’ve gotten in the tomb, manor, arbor, and now embrace. The experience is nice but I could level up faster and make more money just doing random quests.

Good: Most of the dungeons are creative in design, the characters memorable, the stories good
Good: Some of the bosses have interesting fights
Bad: Some bosses have boring or overtuned fights
Good: Multiple paths in explorables make it nice to change up the pace some
Bad: Limited paths with no extra achievements or objectives means eventually you’re gonna start repeating it all and fall into the “same boring old grind” that this game is not supposed to have
Good: the addition of the new goodie bags, smart move
Bad: most chest and bosses still drop crap aside from the goody bags
Good: story modes (as I already mentioned) are creative and fun, but only the first time or two
Bad: replayability of story modes and non-existent loot
Bad: certain trash mobs way overtuned (certain bandits in CM, dogs in TA, ect)

Bosses (Good): Some boss fights are pretty fun or designed to keep you on your toes pretty well. Example would be the boss in HoTW with the 2 Quaggan guards. You can’t sit still and kiting has to be pretty effective to stay out of the huge aoe / not take multiple hits from the quaggans.

Trash (Good): Some dungeons simply don’t have an abundance of trash mobs. Some packs are mixed between silver vets & normal mobs.

Length (Good): Some paths, namely CM in general are short but challenging enough to not feel like you’re wasting time for what you know you’ll receive upon completion, compared to other paths from other dungeons. I don’t expect all paths to be of equal length or difficulty, but some vary by such an extreme degree that it’s hard to justify even choosing it. Whether it’s from one path to another in the same dungeon or comparing one dungeon to another. I’m looking at you CoE p3.

Rewards (Good): You know what to expect at the end of the run. The implementation of additional money bags (2-4s) + the karma vials is a good start but more needs to be done in this area.

Bosses (Bad): Most boss fights are extremely too long for what you’re tasked to do. Sit still and press 1-2-3-4-5 until the boss is dead, with little to no risk of dying. Some of these fights need to be designed differently. Either give the bosses more mobility, more abilities, or enhance their AI. What they don’t need is increased HP pools or increased damage. I’d argue that every boss currently should see a reduction to their HP. The rewards don’t scale with the tedium, monotony, and worth that the majority of bosses provide. Some boss abilities need to be telegraphed just a bit better. Not withstanding a performance issue, some bosses have big aoe abilities that engage the moment the red ring hits the floor and there is no time to react if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Trash (Bad): Trash mob damage is fine. Trash is where mindless killing needs to be and it’s okay if they have high damage attacks, because there is no real strategy to defeat trash. Unlike bosses (or should be). However, trash hp is exceedingly high for some dungeons with silver vets that obviously provide no challenge to a group of even the lowest common denominators. Lower the HP a bit, keep the damage where it’s at. Perhaps give them a slightly better loot table. I’d rather receive nothing at all than receive a “trophy” that vendors for 6c. Increased reward quality/chances definitely needs to be applied to Champion mobs in dungeons.

Length (Bad): I kind of mixed this in the “good” section. The length of some dungeon paths are so long that people end up avoiding them against the common quicker paths. This spells out a design problem. The fix shouldn’t be to make other paths longer in length, but to tune the longer paths to completion in a time relative to shorter paths. If I were to throw out a number, I’d say a longer path shouldn’t exceed a shorter path by 10 minutes. This can be done by removing needless trash.

Rewards (Bad): This is the area where I take issue with the most because it’s a root of a host of the other major problems. It’s primarily because of needless trash that people do speed clears, finding legitimate or illegitimate ways to bypass the trash so they don’t have to waste additional time that is unreasonable by nature to spend for little to no reward. For the white knights out there claiming people should just suck it up and play how it was designed: why keep poor design especially when people circumvent it at every step?

Further with rewards. As I said, the karma vials and money pouches were a step in the right direction in an effort to provide players with an extra incentive upon killing a boss but I don’t feel that it’s nearly enough or in step with what players can do with their time otherwise spent outside of a dungeon. The incentive is simply not good enough. It’s a nice gesture though.

Lastly tokens. Token costs for armor is more than reasonable (I’d almost say that the cost for armor / weapons is about 20% too low) however, diminishing returns NEED to be done away with. Players should not have an artificial – developer designed soft cap in place to limit how or what players do with their play time. Especially when there are 8 different dungeon currencies and they cannot be swapped (swapping currency should not be the fix here. Removing diminishing returns should). The rationale for keeping the diminishing return system in place is patently by practice, faulty and oppressive. This is no different than limiting players on how many jump puzzle chests they can open in a day based on how quickly they made it through the puzzle. Inherently, you end up effecting far more players negatively than you do by successfully putting a halt to “speed clears” which would easily be fixed by addressing the actual problem as opposed to putting a band-aid fix on it with diminishing returns for token rewards.