Guild Wars 2

As someone who is once again playing and loving a lot of the classes, I’m wondering what it is exactly that will make each class (especially with the elite additions) unique in raids and why they would be desired. My knowledge is pretty limited of what each class is capable of regarding boons and combo finisher utility.
For example: Revenants can bring boon duration and decent might, healing, and fury boons while putting out good damage

Mesmer: alacrity (that should be enough), quickness, boonstripping, soft cc

Engi: Superior condi damage, fields+finishers

Druid: Heals

Thief: Nothing special, really

Necro: Physical damage? Boonstripping, soft cc

Ele: might/regen/vigor/protection, heals, fields + finishers.

All classes have the potential to tank.

roelvanesch.2817:

Mesmer: alacrity (that should be enough), quickness, boonstripping, soft cc

Engi: Superior condi damage, fields+finishers

Druid: Heals

Thief: Nothing special, really

Necro: Physical damage? Boonstripping, soft cc

Ele: might/regen/vigor/protection, heals, fields + finishers.

All classes have the potential to tank.

Gonna add to this:

Ranger/Druid:
Spotter
Grace of the Land
Glyph of Empowerment
Frost Spirit
Sun Spirit
Rock Spirit (If def is needed)

Warrior:
Empowerment
Banner of Discipline
Banner of Strength
Banner of Tactics (If def is needed)
Banner of Defense (If def is needed)

Those are profession-unique buffs that can’t come from any other class.

It’s also worth considering now that so many professions have damage modifiers based on the number of boons on them that keeping up often overlooked boons will increase a lot of group damage. Things like protection, regeneration, and stability are often ignored, but if a profession can keep these up without sacrificing damage, then it is of benefit.

Quasar.1756:

Their CC is really powerful and don’t forget how “Shadow Refuge” saved many a person in dungeons back in the day….Thieves bring the numbers on dps needed to make the bosses hp melt alot faster.

Outside of venomshared basi venom, thief cc is very weak. With old defiance, headshot .25s daze was as good as a 2s stun, but that’s not the case anymore. With the new break bars, headshot barely scratches them.

Guardians:
-Stability
-Reflects
-Blocks (potential of 16 straight seconds of face tanking if the teams stands behind you)
-Can do some condi clense

Quasar.1756:

Fay.2357:

Quasar.1756:

Their CC is really powerful and don’t forget how “Shadow Refuge” saved many a person in dungeons back in the day….Thieves bring the numbers on dps needed to make the bosses hp melt alot faster.

Outside of venomshared basi venom, thief cc is very weak. With old defiance, headshot .25s daze was as good as a 2s stun, but that’s not the case anymore. With the new break bars, headshot barely scratches them.

Huh…Needle trap, Tripwire, Caltrops, Impairing Daggers, Debilitation Arc (6 sec. Cripple)…now if these don’t work on boss then yea, but the majority of these abilities have a more than 2 sec. duration, it’s an insult to label these VERY WEAK CC

Cripple, immob, and slow all put a flat degen on the break bar, and thieves hardly have a monopoly on those three conditions (chrono will be doing close to perma slow alone). Since you can’t stack those in intensity, there’s no reason to stack so many skills that apply it. The only good breaking skill there is tripwire, and that may be difficult to get onto a boss when necessary, depending on the situation (pbaoe requires you to be on top of the boss to cast it, potentially very dangerous to do).

Quasar.1756:

O.O Thieves bring nothing special to the raid?!?!? Lmao, thieves arguably have the highest st burst dmg in the game or holds the number 2 spot with ease. Even in non zerg gear, they put up big numbers. Have we forgotten the communities campaign to nerf “backstab” cause it was one shotting players, even in heavy armor gear with toughness.

Now imagine if you took all those boons, apply them to a thief and got backstabbed, we would all be at your funeral before you can finish saying “Oh Kitten!!!”. If bosses have a timer, adding two thieves to your team would get bosses from 100% to 75% faster than not having them in your group.

Their CC is really powerful and don’t forget how “Shadow Refuge” saved many a person in dungeons back in the day….Thieves bring the numbers on dps needed to make the bosses hp melt alot faster.

Sorry to burst your bubble my dear, fellow thief, but our DPS really is pretty sub par nowadays. =(
This is largely due to the effect of the June patch, the darkest day in Thieves’ history. (might be slightly over-dramatic).

Before June, I would agree, Thieves have potential to have the highest DPS of all the classes, simply because we can deal high damage even without Might Stacks, and can deal out consistently high damage with Dagger/Dagger, 66200, with CnD>BS>1 AA chain> CnD* repeat. In a party situation, our DPS skyrockets with all the Might Stacks, Banners, Vulnerability etc.

However, after the June patch, every other profession got a huge DPS boost, so much that they actually had to double the HP of world bosses because people were burning them down too quickly (this was also when condi damage became viable in PvE).

Us thieves however, did not recieve any substantial DPS boost, and instead got pretty much gutted. They removed might stacking traits like Hidden Assassin and Power of Inertia. They removed the trait that lets us do our highest sustained DPS rotation, Infusion of Shadows. Oh, and they gutted Feline Grace and sold it back to us in the form of DareDevil.

Long story short, Other class gets DPS levels similar or more compared to thieves. bUt they also bring much more team support onto the table. Thieves in full glass gear also die much more easily compared to other classes. If you get hit even once, assuming that the hit doesn’t kill you, you’ll likely be kiting the boss until you are sure you can take another hit w/o dying, which is less DPS uptime.

With that being said, sure, stealth ressing may be useful in raids, but in organised groups with skilled players, people are going to be far more coordinated, and arguably more skilled. It might even be harder do get downed with aegises from more then one guardian, heals from druids and even if someone does get downed, with 5-6 people ressing in a raid situation, they can get a player up in less then a few seconds, hardly a real need for stealth.

The only ways i can see thieves being viable is:

1) venomshare CCs with Basilisk Venom, maybe Devourer’s Venom. With Alacrity affecting our venoms, it just might work.

2) The bosses become EXTREMELY vulnerable when their break bar is broken, as thieves still have arguable the highest SPIKE damage among the classes. Staff 5 can be spammed up to 5 times in a short amount of time with Roll for Initiative (yes even without Trickey), and if lets say each Vault deals 20k damage (which I’ve heard is possible in full DPS gear, full Might stacks, Full Vulnerability, full DPS build, namely DA, CS and DD), that’s a 100k damage spike, multiplied by the increased damage bosses take when their break bar is broken.

3) We get OP stolen skills from Bosses.

4) Certain mechanics requires a single, fast-moving class, much like a trigger at the edge of the map that will wipe the team if there is no one to press it within a few seconds. (Similar to Desert Dragon Raid in Dragon Nest back in the day)

With all that being said………

I’m still gonna take my thief into raids with my guildmates. Unless proven that thieves are absolutely worthless, my full ascended armor is sticking on my thief, despite having an engineer in my character screen.

You seriously don’t know what utilities each class brings by now? I think some reading may be in order…. cuz this thread is entirely pointless.

Warriors will be PS to might stack the whole fight, banners (literally no reason to carry tactics banner), a multi rez for downed people with elite banner, some great bar breakers with mace 3/mace Burst, and some small addition to vuln stacking (not great but helps) and Weakness from Warhorn. Some Fury from FGJ, but other classes do perma fury way better.

Quasar.1756:

Now imagine if you took all those boons, apply them to a thief and got backstabbed, we would all be at your funeral before you can finish saying “Oh Kitten!!!”. If bosses have a timer, adding two thieves to your team would get bosses from 100% to 75% faster than not having them in your group.

If you take alacrity into account thief disappear from top 5 dps class in mid-long fights.

Honestly outside some specific mechanics that raid boss could have (example: shot down stuff around the room before their number get to 10 or people will die) there arent many reason to bring a thief in party these days.

For sure dps isnt.

Quasar.1756:

I never said anything to which thieves can claim a monopoly to, I just stated abilities about the profession that shows the viable utilities THEY CAN bring to the raids.

I understand, and I didn’t mean to imply that you thought that. My intention by mentioning that was to point out that soft cc conditions like cripple, immob, and chill are generally applied in heavy doses between the 10 members of any given party, so the specific ability to do so isn’t necessarily a valuable capability.

Quasar.1756:

You claim tripwire is a good breaking skill, that utility is a cripple, so by your definition; abilities with ‘cripple’ in them are good to use.

While tripwire does cripple, that’s not what makes it good. The important part of that skill is the 2 second knockdown, which is a hefty cc.

Quasar.1756:

The majority of abilities I mentioned earlier are “Utilities” and not "Skills’. For a thief, the “skills” don’t have a CD, which makes them spammable or at least able to cast more frequently compared to other professions that may bring those same support to the raid.

I think you’re getting tangled up in an unimportant syntactical quagmire. This thread isn’t asking about “utility skills”, it’s asking about the general capabilities of a class, termed as ‘utility’. The specific slot that provides the capability is unimportant.

Quasar.1756:

“Steal” + “Tripwire” can be done with a blink of an eye

This is quite true, but if the boss happens to be pulsing some sort of nasty pbaoe enrage attack (the vale guardian we saw in the beta was in an enraged state when you needed to break the bar) then even that short time could be dangerous. It might not be, but the point is that needing to be at point blank range is potentially a liability, and something to consider.

Quasar.1756:

Listen, I’m not here to bash your post or make you feel bad. I just want thieves to have a fair share in the raids.

I’m not trying to say that thieves shouldn’t be taken in raids, though if I wanted I make that argument I’d just point out that all other dps classes gain massively from alacrity, while thieves gain nothing (and this is a problem that should be corrected). I just wanted to correct the misconception that headshot, a .25 second daze, is still a strong method of putting cc on a boss. Many people still remember how fantastic headshot was at clearing defiance stacks, and assume it’s great for a breakbar too, but that’s unfortunately no longer the case.

Which classes are fastest at breaking breakbars? I saw warrior discussed above… any others?

Lakshmi.5941:

Which classes are fastest at breaking breakbars? I saw warrior discussed above… any others?

Odd that in all that discussion about thief no one mentioned its capabilities of bar breaking from Impact Strike + Uppercut + Palm Strike + Daze on Steal.

And yes, under Alacrity, teef’s dps goes down the drain compared to most other classes, unless they change Alacrity giving +66% regen to ini.

Lakshmi.5941:

Which classes are fastest at breaking breakbars? I saw warrior discussed above… any others?

Due to the specifics of how it works on larger targets, Mesmer shield 5 is by far the single largest bar breaker in the game. I believe the second largest is revenant staff 5, for a similar reason.

Quasar.1756:

- You take one of many encounters and hold that against a profession.

Nope, i just told that

Galandil.9641:

And yes, under Alacrity, teef’s dps goes down the drain compared to most other classes, unless they change Alacrity giving +66% regen to ini.

Which is a fact based upon math.

If you cant deal with that and you want fight math with opinion its your choice, math doesnt mind and doesnt’ change

have fun

Quasar.1756:

You totally don’t comprehend as well as the average person, so it will take more time for me to get through to your head.

I’m sorry for your understanding shortcomings, please have fun and don’t talk to hostile creatures in dragon stand…..Hope you can understand that

Dont worry, i’m so happy to be an “average person” who comprehend what alacrity does to every class except thief rather than a “special person” who doesnt realize how subpar thief is due to that reason.

I feel lucky!

going dragon stand xD

Letsk keep on track a bit, shall we?

Galandil.9641:

And yes, under Alacrity, teef’s dps goes down the drain compared to most other classes, unless they change Alacrity giving +66% regen to ini.

I think it’s fair that alacrity doesn’t work for thieves seeing how chill doesn’t work

Thieves bring two things to raids.

1) Smoke Fields/Stealth

2)Active mitigation

Now really depending on how “tanking” ends up being in GW2 Daredevil has the potential to be the best tank class in the game through sheer amount of evades and blocks. From what we saw of Vale Guardian during beta that specific fight doesn’t necessitate tanks having high survivability but we might see later bosses that do heavy damage to tanks and have multiple tank killer abilities requiring something like Daredevil/Guard/Rev/Scrapper as a tank.

Both druid and engineer have a smoke field.

rotten.9753:

Both druid and engineer have a smoke field.

Mesmers can give aegis why bring a Guardian?

Mallis.4295:

rotten.9753:

Both druid and engineer have a smoke field.

Mesmers can give aegis why bring a Guardian?

For stealth, you only really need a single smokefield. Engineer and druid get it without any investment (smokescale is a good pet imo, Engi already runs bomb kit for the other bombs.) Mesmer’s acces to aegis is restricted and not ‘automatically’ build in.

Mallis.4295:

rotten.9753:

Both druid and engineer have a smoke field.

Mesmers can give aegis why bring a Guardian?

Mesmer is flat-out awful at providing aegis, that’s not really something we can do.

Mallis.4295:

Thieves bring two things to raids.

1) Smoke Fields/Stealth

2)Active mitigation

Now really depending on how “tanking” ends up being in GW2 Daredevil has the potential to be the best tank class in the game through sheer amount of evades and blocks. From what we saw of Vale Guardian during beta that specific fight doesn’t necessitate tanks having high survivability but we might see later bosses that do heavy damage to tanks and have multiple tank killer abilities requiring something like Daredevil/Guard/Rev/Scrapper as a tank.

thiefs dont make good tanks at least for the boss we were shown. evade tanking means you are forced to move around which lowers overall dps (not standing in dmg/combo fields/melees not hitting all their skills)
this against an enrage timer —> no evasion tanking

Raithwall.8201:

Mallis.4295:

Thieves bring two things to raids.

1) Smoke Fields/Stealth

2)Active mitigation

Now really depending on how “tanking” ends up being in GW2 Daredevil has the potential to be the best tank class in the game through sheer amount of evades and blocks. From what we saw of Vale Guardian during beta that specific fight doesn’t necessitate tanks having high survivability but we might see later bosses that do heavy damage to tanks and have multiple tank killer abilities requiring something like Daredevil/Guard/Rev/Scrapper as a tank.

thiefs dont make good tanks at least for the boss we were shown. evade tanking means you are forced to move around which lowers overall dps (not standing in dmg/combo fields/melees not hitting all their skills)
this against an enrage timer —> no evasion tanking

How about dodging directly through the boss? If he only turns around he’ll stay in the fields.

Tldr; thief is garbage for raids

Raithwall.8201:

Mallis.4295:

Thieves bring two things to raids.

1) Smoke Fields/Stealth

2)Active mitigation

Now really depending on how “tanking” ends up being in GW2 Daredevil has the potential to be the best tank class in the game through sheer amount of evades and blocks. From what we saw of Vale Guardian during beta that specific fight doesn’t necessitate tanks having high survivability but we might see later bosses that do heavy damage to tanks and have multiple tank killer abilities requiring something like Daredevil/Guard/Rev/Scrapper as a tank.

thiefs dont make good tanks at least for the boss we were shown. evade tanking means you are forced to move around which lowers overall dps (not standing in dmg/combo fields/melees not hitting all their skills)
this against an enrage timer —> no evasion tanking

You can just dodge through. them. Also for that boss you don’t need a tank with active mitigation. It doesn’t do a lot of damage to its aggro target.

Also as engis smoke field the problem I was pointing out is that it isn’t reliable and on demand. If there’s a boss fight or something that requires a lot of stealth you will need a thief.

Raithwall.8201:

thiefs dont make good tanks at least for the boss we were shown. evade tanking means you are forced to move around which lowers overall dps (not standing in dmg/combo fields/melees not hitting all their skills)
this against an enrage timer —> no evasion tanking

Ever heard of this Skill?

yea, please show me all that thief tanks. they seem to be so viable i’ve actually never seen one yet.
you might be able to tank as thief, its just other classes do it better while bringing support to the group

roelvanesch.2817:

Mesmer: alacrity (that should be enough), quickness, boonstripping, soft cc

Engi: DPS, fields+finishers

Ranger: DPS

Thief: DPS

Necro: DPS, Boonstripping, soft cc

Ele: DPS, fields & finisher

All classes have the potential to tank.

FTFY

Raithwall.8201:

yea, please show me all that thief tanks. they seem to be so viable i’ve actually never seen one yet.
you might be able to tank as thief, its just other classes do it better while bringing support to the group

Crusher + Hunter Arah p3… You wont find a better “tank” cause thief never need to move
Melandru Arah p4 is some kind of afk check too.
Leurant TA, when you want to carry pugs, just go PW and all the others can do dmg while you stand there.
Just 3 examples

rotten.9753:

Galandil.9641:

And yes, under Alacrity, teef’s dps goes down the drain compared to most other classes, unless they change Alacrity giving +66% regen to ini.

I think it’s fair that alacrity doesn’t work for thieves seeing how chill doesn’t work

And this is the perfect example of why thief, more than other classes, needs a split between PvP and PvE skills behaviour.