Guild Wars 2

Raids is next week, however, it’s been proven time and again that ArenaNet can make amazing PvE and well as painfully bad PvE design.

So I’m making a quick list of things I don’t (and I’m sure many others) don’t want to see.

1. DPS Checking.
During the beta weekend event, the Vale Guardian was nothing more than a DPS check. Granted, it already has some pretty strong and deadly mechanics that required team play. There was one issue that should never show up in PvE, that was the bosses “Rage Timer”
You see, if you don’t deal enough damage, the boss will deal x5 the amount of damage and can easily wipe your entire team instantly. Unless he had 4% of his health bar left, it was GG.

The Rage Timer only encourages players to go full zerker and full condi, any sort of defense can mean defeat, which ironically goes completely against ArenaNets raid mantra of exploring builds.

The lesson: Do NOT have a DPS check! Seriously, if you want to reward teams that are fast and effective you give actual rewards! Speaking of…

2. Only 1 chest per boss/event/room.
What’s wrong with 1 chest? Nothing, but it hinders design. If you want players to take the challenge to the next level, give them next level challenges. Reward those groups that are effective and are at their absolute best.

Beat this boss in just 5 minutes?! Well, that bolds a 3 chest rewards. Tripling the chance at those rare items.

This is where you can apply those stat checks or add even extra challenge. You could run through this trap filled room with your team, or you could do it naked with your team.

The lesson: Eventually players will find the dominant strategy, something that can never fail, fast and is easy to do. It doesn’t matter how hard you make something, if it is designed to be beaten, it will be beaten then it will start to be beaten effectively. This is where you should apply those challenges.

3. Lack of audio and visual.
You know that the Hero Point in Auric Basin with Balthazar? His one attack he casually raises his arm and then make everything explode? REALLY?! Does that mean I can have a meteor shower that is very quiet? NO?!

I have no idea why ArenaNet just loves powerful, deadly and quiet explosions of death. If there is a super charged mega attack, I better kitten well hear and see it!

The lesson: Finish the combat. If everyone blows up and dies, I better feel like it was because we fail to react, NOT failing to see it in the chaotic attack animations from the players.

4. Stupid boss mechanics that makes no sense.
Remember the Vale Guardian? It wasn’t bad but brings up so many bad designs. First off, you needed 5 players to stand on a circle that randomly spawns around to prevent a whip.
Okay, so, what the kitten? Why does the Vale Guardian have that? Who is casting it? Why does it require 5 people? Why does the key to his defeat just randomly appears?

Just like Mai Trin, she is technically unbeatable, but she has a friend that holds to key to her defeat.

This is what you call, stupid mechanics. Why not have players beat Horis, take his cannon and shoot Mai Trin, reducing her shield?

Why not have an artifact that you drag around to protect you in the Vale Guardian fight? Players that pick it up or drop it, till provide the AoE safe shield that requires 5 players to stand in. But it’s not so simple, while it does provide a shield, picking it up will slowly kill the holder. Not only that, the artifact will lose it’s protective charges the longer it is not held. Meaning that you HAVE to keep it held as much as possible meaning that you cannot just leave it laying around.

The lesson: If it seems dumb in design, it probably is dumb design. Put some extra thought into it.

5. Bugs.
Be sure doors WILL open.
Be sure events WILL trigger.
Be sure bosses WILL follow the rules.
Be sure items WILL spawn.

That is all from me.

Who wants to add #6?

I’m cool with #1, with a caveat.
Don’t reward the full-nomad group with an easy win. Yes, it takes a different set of skills to win an attrition fight, but that fight should still get harder over time, forcing players to balance offense and defense strategies.

I’m a little baffled with #2. I wouldn’t mind seeing challenge motes a group could trigger to make the fight harder to get more loot chances though. Especially if the challenge is “Survive this fight for 7 minutes before defeating.” :P
Rewarding fast-clears is just going to push a Zerk/Sinister meta you just nipped at in #1.

Apply #3 across the entire game, gdangit. Stunmurder frogs and a list of other too-subtle, muddy-looking creatures don’t broadcast obviously enough, especially in audio.
Be sure to add text/icons for things that are affecting the fight, so we have time to notice/read them.

Relevant to #4, limit the BS mechanics that deny me use of my build. If I must use a kit, give me time with it before a clutch encounter to read/test the abilities.

New item, #5: Knockdown spam =/= “Challenge”

Dps checks should and always will be apart of games.

I am totally fine with a DPS check and here is why…. if the dps of the group is not pulling their weight then we need to know about it. You cant go into battle with pool noodle and expect to be effective.

here is what GW2 does not. DPS meter leetness to call out players. the failure of a group is be pinned on the group not performing. Not just a few players. Everyone should be expected to pitch in and push what ever they can.

We should have a way to check DPS. If you are running healing power when you should be running dps specs we should know about it.

Why shouldn’t there be damage checks when one of the three pillars of the game is damage? (Damage, support, control)

People.

But jokes aside, severe dps/gear checks, really bad RNG mechanics, poor drop rates, cheesy mechanics like “blink and you die”, large amounts of trash mobs, huge time investment requirements, etc. You know all the reasons I gave up raiding in other games, excluding stereotypes of players that make raiding … less than pleasant.

Coyote.7031:

People.

But jokes aside, severe dps/gear checks, really bad RNG mechanics, poor drop rates, cheesy mechanics like “blink and you die”, large amounts of trash mobs, huge time investment requirements, etc. You know all the reasons I gave up raiding in other games, excluding stereotypes of players that make raiding … less than pleasant.

So, basically…

“No to every raid mechanic ever”? :P

Granted, ANet can stuff their one-hit KO fetish where the Mordrem don’t grow. That’s another thing that pushes the full-damage meta. If you can’t survive it anyway, why gear for it?

On trash mobs, less trash groups on the way to the boss, but mob management during a boss fight should totally be a thing for some of them. Up until the break bar, monoliths were bad-bad design for GW2, and now they’re reasonably tolerable.

PS: Can I just bring 9 of my alts with me? At least they can all get ready in under half an hour. :P

I think there are better ways to do DPS checks than binary enrage timers.

The problem with enrage timers are that they heavily encourage “all damage” without granting the option of “less damage, but you still can’t cheese if via autoattacks”

In stead of a single timer that increases damage 5x, a better dps check that would still prevent cheese would be scaling damage over time in increments. This would allow tankier comps to still succeed, but it would still require them to work the DPS in stead of cheesing it all in healing/reflect balls while dealing almost no damage. Their fight would take a little longer, and for that reason the gradually scaling damage would be mitigated by their extra defenses, still keeping the fight challenging but also rewarding their strategy and requiring them to play it well.

So, in stead of a 15 minute timer that then increases damage 5x, have the damage start scaling up in smaller amounts every minute past the first five, with no cap on the scaling. This lets tankier comps and zerky comps both succeed the fight, but both have to play well and to the respective strengths of their comps rather than cheese it with so much offense or defense it breaks the fight.

6. Extreme time requirments, even for good play and good coordinated groups.
They MUST not take more than 2h to complete.

White Hunter.3416:

6. Extreme time requirments, even for good play and good coordinated groups.
They MUST not take more than 2h to complete.

I don’t have any hope for this since we spent 10 hours in Beta fighting 1 boss and still couldn’t take him down.

I disagree with your first point. We already did some quick math on that. I may not remember that correctly but.

The boss have 22 millions HP and the timer is 8min. 22 millions/8min/60sec mean the group need to do 45k dps or each member need to do 4.5k dps.

A full buffed meta zerker do between 12 and 20k dps, which is far more than needed. I think that this timer is perfect since if you want to do a record you need to be good to play full zerker. But for most people they gonna need either all have hybrid build with some build in defense, or a mix of zerker and support character. 4.5k dps is very low, so the main focus here is to know the mechanic and to stay alive to do the dps.

Now you could be right if the timer needed us to do like 10k dps. In that case we would all need to have zerker gear and a minimum dps build to achieve that, while some profession could just not cut it. But at 4.5k? It’s just perfect.

At the same time, this make sure that a lazy group don’t take 1 hour to do the boss in full cleric or minstrel for an easy mode kill.

I agree completly with point 2

3) You lose me partially. I don’t want only telegraphed attack where the boss scream at you that he’s gonna attack. Lupi kick is hard to master at first and if you lose attention you gonna have it in the face and I like that. I want the first to drain me physically and psychologically. I want to be proud that I beat him with my friends because I had reflex and was in the zone, not because I remember all the timing. What I don’t want is random attack or attack with no sign to at all to prepare yourself. Those kind of attack don’t have any counter. I’m not dead because I wasn’t good enough, I’m dead because RNG. Which is what they gave us in a lot of fractal (random fear/immobilize, i’m looking at you).

4) Opinion there. For exemple, I love the Vale mechanic. You need to pay attention. The position are random true, but if you pay attention you will know when to move. As long as RNG won’t make appear all the spot far from everybody or all on one side, I’m ok with it and I find it fun. For mai trin, the only thing that I dislike is when she suddenly teleport on the other side of the map on nobody while the electric AoE is cast. The goal here is to put your team in a position so if she teleport, she teleport still in the Electric AoE. If she can teleport randomly, it’s a bad design because you can’t counter it. But i think that it’s a bug.

5) Of course there will be bugs and of course nobody want them. I guess we gonna have to live with reality. The big thing is not if there will be bugs or not, but will they have staff to fix those bug with a quick enough response.

Celtic Lady.3729:

White Hunter.3416:

6. Extreme time requirments, even for good play and good coordinated groups.
They MUST not take more than 2h to complete.

I don’t have any hope for this since we spent 10 hours in Beta fighting 1 boss and still couldn’t take him down.

That,s not the same thing. Taking 10 hours because you are learning and getting better is one thing. It’s a learning curve and if you don’t want that, then you can wait for a guide and follow it to reduce this learning time. The 3 first mini boss can be kill in 20-30min easy, while the boss himself need to be killed in 8min.

What White Hunter was referring too was high hp damage sponge. A boss that take 20min to take down only because he have so much hp/toughness. So far the first boss have 22 millions HP. A high number, but we have 10 person and since day one the power creep is so real, so for now the first boss is ok in that category IMO.

Rauderi.8706:

Coyote.7031:

People.

But jokes aside, severe dps/gear checks, really bad RNG mechanics, poor drop rates, cheesy mechanics like “blink and you die”, large amounts of trash mobs, huge time investment requirements, etc. You know all the reasons I gave up raiding in other games, excluding stereotypes of players that make raiding … less than pleasant.

So, basically…

“No to every raid mechanic ever”? :P

Granted, ANet can stuff their one-hit KO fetish where the Mordrem don’t grow. That’s another thing that pushes the full-damage meta. If you can’t survive it anyway, why gear for it?

On trash mobs, less trash groups on the way to the boss, but mob management during a boss fight should totally be a thing for some of them. Up until the break bar, monoliths were bad-bad design for GW2, and now they’re reasonably tolerable.

PS: Can I just bring 9 of my alts with me? At least they can all get ready in under half an hour. :P

More or less :P it’s why I stopped raiding in other games. I’ll never raid in GW2 so my opinion is really moot. But I thought I’d be a jerk and give it anyway. Although you can have raids without all the stuff I mentioned. And agreed, adds in a boss fight is a perfectly find mechanic. Spending 30 minutes just clearing trash to to the boss, is less of a fun mechanic.

They at least have this going for them though, which might be the most important detail, individual loot. Yes it can be awesome to trade or give gear to certain players who you know deserve it, but is that really worth all the drama caused by looting and loot systems? I personally think not, but I’m sure some opinions differ.

1) Disagreeing: You need some sort of DPS Check just to make sure that you can’t cheese a Boss with 10 Man Nomads Gear. Also the DPS Check for the Guardian itself is pretty low. Math says that 4.5k DPS is enough. I would add some DPS to it because of the intermission Phases. So about 6k DPS? Still low enough. And of course DPS Classes will go Glass to push their DPS. It is in their Job but you also have other Roles to fulfill, so not everyone is going full Glass.
And to be clear. Someone who is min-maxing but doesn’t play with the Mechanics will be a greater DPS Loss than someone who isn’t min-maxing but plays the Mechanics to a Perfection.
2) Like the Idea of giving more Loot to the ones who did it better, having a few Challenges makes Fights a bit more interesting.
3) Audio could use some tuning but what needs to be done is to reduce the Particle Effects. It isn’t good if your Particle Effects make it hard to impossible to see some Mechanics.
4) Mechanic isn’t Stupid. 5 Players that run to a Circle to avoid Damage? Why not. It is there so more People are responsible for a smooth run. And it isn’t completely Random. You can manipulate where it is spawning a bit. The Area is split up into 3 Parts and this thing can spawn in every Area the Players are, so if everyone is just in Area Blue this Thing will only spawn in Blue.
5) Bugs will happen, just hope that we will see not many Bugs.

7. Too high mastery requirements
Locking players out through a questionable mastery system is not my definition of fun. The raids should help the player to reach masteries beyond the basics that may be needed to complete the raid (I’m fine with the basics of jungle movement).

8. A lack of information about what is the next step to do
A problem that is not only a problem regarding raids. Well too often problems occur and questions arise because there is a severe lack of game feedback to the player. A dangerous place like a raid dungeon should hint some important information toward the player to help him on his already difficult way.

9. Safe spots…
… like they build literally in every other dungeon-like environment (fractals of the mist and dungeons) that bring up stupid loopholes that allow skipping the mechanic of a fight/event/room. If there is a mechanic and if this mechanic is well thought out, players should be forced to adapt to it. That should not exclude different solutions to a situation as long as it is given by the game and not the lack of testing.

Nova Stiker.8396:

1. DPS Checking.

2. Only 1 chest per boss/event/room.
What’s wrong with 1 chest? Nothing, but it hinders design. If you want players to take the challenge to the next level, give them next level challenges. Reward those groups that are effective and are at their absolute best.

Beat this boss in just 5 minutes?! Well, that bolds a 3 chest rewards. Tripling the chance at those rare items.

This is where you can apply those stat checks or add even extra challenge. You could run through this trap filled room with your team, or you could do it naked with your team.

The lesson: Eventually players will find the dominant strategy, something that can never fail, fast and is easy to do. It doesn’t matter how hard you make something, if it is designed to be beaten, it will be beaten then it will start to be beaten effectively. This is where you should apply those challenges.

I’m all for giving extra rewards to players who go beyond what is needed to beat a boss or dungeon. But i don’t think it should be a time limit, because that would be the same as a DPS check/rage timer.
If you think about, no one likes the idea of getting less rewards for anything, ( just ask the dungeon community right now :P ) So almost everyone will try to go for the extra rewards, not just people that want the challenge.

My idea for something like that would be a boss that bouncing around all over the place, and you got to break the bar while it’s over a pit or something or have those bone breakers that run around smash into each other a few times

No Timers Timers Timers.

Fail Timers like TT wurm have to go.

The guy above said “we don’t want ppl to cheese with nomads”. What game is he playing? One of the reasons for the Berzerker meta is 1HkO mechanics that kill through nomads.

At this point, nomads would be welcome. Groups that could beat a boss with Nomads could beat it faster with better gear.

BobbyT.7192:

Nova Stiker.8396:

1. DPS Checking.

2. Only 1 chest per boss/event/room.
What’s wrong with 1 chest? Nothing, but it hinders design. If you want players to take the challenge to the next level, give them next level challenges. Reward those groups that are effective and are at their absolute best.

Beat this boss in just 5 minutes?! Well, that bolds a 3 chest rewards. Tripling the chance at those rare items.

This is where you can apply those stat checks or add even extra challenge. You could run through this trap filled room with your team, or you could do it naked with your team.

The lesson: Eventually players will find the dominant strategy, something that can never fail, fast and is easy to do. It doesn’t matter how hard you make something, if it is designed to be beaten, it will be beaten then it will start to be beaten effectively. This is where you should apply those challenges.

I’m all for giving extra rewards to players who go beyond what is needed to beat a boss or dungeon. But i don’t think it should be a time limit, because that would be the same as a DPS check/rage timer.
If you think about, no one likes the idea of getting less rewards for anything, ( just ask the dungeon community right now :P ) So almost everyone will try to go for the extra rewards, not just people that want the challenge.

My idea for something like that would be a boss that bouncing around all over the place, and you got to break the bar while it’s over a pit or something or have those bone breakers that run around smash into each other a few times

There is nothing wrong with a time limit concept, it becomes an issue when it reaches 0 and that means you lose.

What happens is players feel like they lost because X player didn’t do enough damage or their gear isn’t optimized for damage. While that is the players fault, it’s also the fault of the design as it fully punishes players that use the not ideal stats that they invested a lot of time and money into. It’s not like people hop into a raid thinking, “which gear stats should I use?” That’s just not possible, do not punish players for the hundreds of gold they invested into their gear.

If you truly want to challenge players to get the most out of good teamwork is rewards. You will have hardcore groups going for the gold. You can still reward the group that took 20 minutes to beat the Vale Guardian but ideally you want to give the most reward to the group that beat it in 4 minutes.

The fact that you contradict yourself by the second point is pretty indicative of your level of understanding on what should be included.
No timers, but reward people more for beating timers? come on now.
Enrage timers are fine, they don’t encourage full dps compositions. Quiet the opposite, they allow for comps to carry things other then DPS.
The devs who made the encounters are the same devs who put those enrage timers on them. And we know, for a fact, that the devs want groups to contain people who run things other then full dps builds.
The enrage timers don’t contradict their mantra, they support it. These bosses have been explicitly designed to be possible to defeat in X time without having a full dps comp.
The fact that there’s an enrage timer doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It’s a part of the design as a whole.
So when the boss has a 10min enrage, that’s great, because now we know definitively that the boss can be defeated within 10 minutes without bringing full dps. So we can allow ourselves to do so.

Your philosophy for rewards, on the other hand, is something that works against their mantra for raids, and encourages people to run nothing but DPS in order to maximize their rewards.

Point 3 is obvious to the point of redundancy. It goes without saying.
Point 4 I once again disagree with. Those mechanics are not stupid, you just have your priorities backwards. Those mechanics are good fight mechanics which make things interesting. The fact that they don’t make sense from a realism-perspective is irrelevant. Game mechanics trump realism.
For example, bows and guns in this game completely ignore the concept of ammo and reloading. But their fun to play, so there’s no reason to adhere to such limitations as realism.
What your proposed for the Vale Guardian is a complete redesign of the mechanic. It might also be fun that way, but that doesn’t mean the current implementation is un-fun or badly designed. Just different.
Paint 5 is, once again, obvious to the point of redundancy. It goes without saying. It’s not like the devs purposefully leave something in a buggy state.

I wouldn’t mind the dps meter if it was done correctly.
A lot of DPS comes from people who stacked might/fury, applied voun.
Even giving regeneration and protect to someone and saving them from death means DPS because there is still player alive to contribute. What about spotter/assassin’s presence and stuff like that.

If there is a meter which would put all of this in account I wouldn’t mind it. Actually I would support it 100%

Also they could always add statistics like you have after PVP match

Bugs.

And I don’t mean the squishy kind.

Arewn.2368:

The fact that you contradict yourself by the second point is pretty indicative of your level of understanding on what should be included.
No timers, but reward people more for beating timers? come on now.
Enrage timers are fine, they don’t encourage full dps compositions. Quiet the opposite, they allow for comps to carry things other then DPS.
The devs who made the encounters are the same devs who put those enrage timers on them. And we know, for a fact, that the devs want groups to contain people who run things other then full dps builds.
The enrage timers don’t contradict their mantra, they support it. These bosses have been explicitly designed to be possible to defeat in X time without having a full dps comp.
The fact that there’s an enrage timer doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It’s a part of the design as a whole.
So when the boss has a 10min enrage, that’s great, because now we know definitively that the boss can be defeated within 10 minutes without bringing full dps. So we can allow ourselves to do so.

Your philosophy for rewards, on the other hand, is something that works against their mantra for raids, and encourages people to run nothing but DPS in order to maximize their rewards.

Point 4 I once again disagree with. Those mechanics are not stupid, you just have your priorities backwards. Those mechanics are good fight mechanics which make things interesting. The fact that they don’t make sense from a realism-perspective is irrelevant. Game mechanics trump realism.
For example, bows and guns in this game completely ignore the concept of ammo and reloading. But their fun to play, so there’s no reason to adhere to such limitations as realism.
What your proposed for the Vale Guardian is a complete redesign of the mechanic. It might also be fun that way, but that doesn’t mean the current implementation is un-fun or badly designed. Just different.

As a counter argument,

1. Enrage Timers or any timer that is “kill this before this reaches 0” will only encourage people to spec into as much damage as possible because it will be the safest way to victory.
This is exactly why if you want NO DPS checks, if it takes a team 1 hour to beat something, let them, they fought the kitten thing for a whole hour and achieved victory.

But that should not be the end of it, if you really desire to get the most out of high end play is increasing rewards for increased effectiveness. If players cannot achieved that gold reward, so be it, at least they will still get something for their hard efforts. For those that want the bang for their time and efforts, those expert teams, they will get the extra rewards. The DPS check can easily be the rewards.

Beat this in under 4 minutes with a coordinated glassy team? kitten , triple the prize! You deserve it!
Beat this in 30 minutes with a rag-tag group of PuGs? Well, you get something for your efforts, after all, you beat it.

Want the gold reward? Well, you need to do better. You need to optimize your gear, build and team.

Why is this important? It will cheat the players that don’t have optimized stats. The same stats they spend time and hundreds of gold achieving.

As for point 4 I am defending my point.

It is NOT an argument of mechanics vs. realism.
It IS an argument of mechanics vs. logic.

Why does Mario grow bigger when he eats a mushroom? Realistically, that makes 0 sense but logically it’s designed help the players understand the mechanics. As those power-up are not only everywhere in the game but there are also good items to grab.
While you can make some logical arguments against it, the fact is it’s a crucial part of the ENTIRE game.

In the Vale Guardians case, logically it makes no sense. So the blue circle appears from no where, is summoned by nothing, needs 4 people because? And you will never see that safety blue circle ever again, anywhere else.

It shows you nothing, teaches you nothing and only by trial and error you can see what to do. That is stupid design. There is no justifying that.

As I said with Mai Trin and Horris, logically, there is no reason for Horris to make his captain vulnerable. Realistically it is very possible! Logically, Horris is helping you defeat himself and his captain; which makes no sense.

If something makes no logical sense in a boss fight, it’s bad design. Period. You can do better and you should do better.

What DON’T I want in the raids?

1. Pity.

2. Mercy.

3. Survivors.

I think that sums it up pretty well.

Nova Stiker.8396:

BobbyT.7192:

Nova Stiker.8396:

1. DPS Checking.

2. Only 1 chest per boss/event/room.
What’s wrong with 1 chest? Nothing, but it hinders design. If you want players to take the challenge to the next level, give them next level challenges. Reward those groups that are effective and are at their absolute best.

Beat this boss in just 5 minutes?! Well, that bolds a 3 chest rewards. Tripling the chance at those rare items.

This is where you can apply those stat checks or add even extra challenge. You could run through this trap filled room with your team, or you could do it naked with your team.

The lesson: Eventually players will find the dominant strategy, something that can never fail, fast and is easy to do. It doesn’t matter how hard you make something, if it is designed to be beaten, it will be beaten then it will start to be beaten effectively. This is where you should apply those challenges.

I’m all for giving extra rewards to players who go beyond what is needed to beat a boss or dungeon. But i don’t think it should be a time limit, because that would be the same as a DPS check/rage timer.
If you think about, no one likes the idea of getting less rewards for anything, ( just ask the dungeon community right now :P ) So almost everyone will try to go for the extra rewards, not just people that want the challenge.

My idea for something like that would be a boss that bouncing around all over the place, and you got to break the bar while it’s over a pit or something or have those bone breakers that run around smash into each other a few times

There is nothing wrong with a time limit concept, it becomes an issue when it reaches 0 and that means you lose.

What happens is players feel like they lost because X player didn’t do enough damage or their gear isn’t optimized for damage. While that is the players fault, it’s also the fault of the design as it fully punishes players that use the not ideal stats that they invested a lot of time and money into. It’s not like people hop into a raid thinking, “which gear stats should I use?” That’s just not possible, do not punish players for the hundreds of gold they invested into their gear.

---

If you truly want to challenge players to get the most out of good teamwork is rewards. You will have hardcore groups going for the gold. You can still reward the group that took 20 minutes to beat the Vale Guardian but ideally you want to give the most reward to the group that beat it in 4 minutes.

To a lot of people, not getting the max reward is a loss.

And I agree with arewn on this one,
It’s possible to set a boss enrage timer so that a group with average distribution of stats could beat it, with out any extra dps stats.
Does that screw over a group with a tanker comp? Yeah, but to play devils advocate and this is my opinion, I don’t think the devs want the players doing one thing for too long.
Could a group in full soldier complete it without the enrage timer? Yeah
Would it take a long time? Yeah.
Will that be really boring for them? Yeah.
“Its taking forever to beat this thing, this game is really boring, lets play something else”
“This game sucks, I’ve been in this dungeon for over an hour and I got nothing to show for it”

Of course in terms of getting extra rewards, I still believe any kind of timer is a bad way of doing it. That one thing I hated in GW1 factions >_<.
It just enrage timers on bosses is the dev’s way of saying " okay guys move it along" and not necessarily a bad thing.

Thaddeus.4891:

I disagree with your first point. We already did some quick math on that. I may not remember that correctly but.

The boss have 22 millions HP and the timer is 8min. 22 millions/8min/60sec mean the group need to do 45k dps or each member need to do 4.5k dps.

A full buffed meta zerker do between 12 and 20k dps, which is far more than needed. I think that this timer is perfect since if you want to do a record you need to be good to play full zerker. But for most people they gonna need either all have hybrid build with some build in defense, or a mix of zerker and support character. 4.5k dps is very low, so the main focus here is to know the mechanic and to stay alive to do the dps.

Now you could be right if the timer needed us to do like 10k dps. In that case we would all need to have zerker gear and a minimum dps build to achieve that, while some profession could just not cut it. But at 4.5k? It’s just perfect.

At the same time, this make sure that a lazy group don’t take 1 hour to do the boss in full cleric or minstrel for an easy mode kill.

I agree completly with point 2

3) You lose me partially. I don’t want only telegraphed attack where the boss scream at you that he’s gonna attack. Lupi kick is hard to master at first and if you lose attention you gonna have it in the face and I like that. I want the first to drain me physically and psychologically. I want to be proud that I beat him with my friends because I had reflex and was in the zone, not because I remember all the timing. What I don’t want is random attack or attack with no sign to at all to prepare yourself. Those kind of attack don’t have any counter. I’m not dead because I wasn’t good enough, I’m dead because RNG. Which is what they gave us in a lot of fractal (random fear/immobilize, i’m looking at you).

4) Opinion there. For exemple, I love the Vale mechanic. You need to pay attention. The position are random true, but if you pay attention you will know when to move. As long as RNG won’t make appear all the spot far from everybody or all on one side, I’m ok with it and I find it fun. For mai trin, the only thing that I dislike is when she suddenly teleport on the other side of the map on nobody while the electric AoE is cast. The goal here is to put your team in a position so if she teleport, she teleport still in the Electric AoE. If she can teleport randomly, it’s a bad design because you can’t counter it. But i think that it’s a bug.

5) Of course there will be bugs and of course nobody want them. I guess we gonna have to live with reality. The big thing is not if there will be bugs or not, but will they have staff to fix those bug with a quick enough response.

Not on a moving target you won’t. The direct damage meta is going to be in for a rude awakening when bosses refuse to stand still and allow stacking.

I’m all for gear checks, this is raiding and it’s meant to be taken seriously. I will be running hybrid direct/condition as it allows better DPS uptime, something the stack on boss crowd will soon learn about. On a moving target hundred blades, fire fields, and most AOE will be be ineffective once the boss moves, but conditions on the boss remain effective and contribute to DPS. Hybrid also provides solid though not superior direct damage burst and with a few tweeks to traits and gear can allow for greater survivability as downed players do no DPS.

Play time is over, new Meta incoming.

“Druid or kick.”

Linear pathing.

I’m a fan of multiple options to get the result done. I’d like GW2 to use some of its mechanics wisely and allow for parts of the dungeon to encourage or actively use under utilized tools (shadowsteps, portals, etc….)

HP Sponge bosses:
Bosses that take 30 minutes to kill with 100,000,000,000,000,0000 hp, and 100,000,000,000,000,000 toughness. Yet they hit like a wet noodle and have easily predictable and avoidable mechanics. Its like me handing you a sledge hammer, a wet sponge, and a wood block and telling you “break the sponge with the sledge” probably not going to happen. A good boss fight should last 5-10 minutes with a balanced party and be deadly when cornered and hit by but one that doesn’t one shot players with some reasonable defenses.

Bosses with break bars and perma stability:
Tried the volcano fractal lately? Its like fighting a boss with double break bars not fun.

What I don’t want?
Easy fights and/or lenient timers.

The reason enrage timers are there are so you can’t just stack 10 nomads and AFK the challenging group content. The problem with number 4 is it hinders design. GW2 doesn’t make sense in so many areas there isn’t really a reason to try. For example, why aren’t rifles 100x better than all swords in the game? For balance. It will never be realistic. It’s a game.

Here is why you need enrage timers and dps checks:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/What-to-expect-A-Fractal-100-run/first#post5744220

So groups like that aren’t rewarded.

What I don’t want.

1. Meaningful story content. I like the lore and I like challenges, but I like lore more. If meaningful story content is going to be in the super challenging content, there needs to be a story mode that allows players to experience their character’s exploits in that story without the huge rewardsgranted to those who complete challenge mode.

2. Timers as DPS checks. I dislike timers, they are immersion breaking and don’t make much sense. A boss has that power, but is just waiting to use it? Doesn’t make much sense. Take a cue from Vinewrath and Marionette. If you don’t DPS the enemies fast enough, they reach an objective and harm it. If that objective takes enough damage bad stuff happens. I prefer countering objectives to fighting a ticking clock. Both are DPS checks, one makes a bit more sense. There are all sorts of implementations of this that can be made that don’t rely on something as trivial as the boss becoming bored and then unleashing its full potential.

3. Raids to be the end game. Other content should not suffer because raids are Arena Net’s new bauble. I don’t want this game to be WoW where everyone shuffles into ten man instances only to appear in town later to show off their shinies. The open world becomes a hub and at that point you might as well not be playing an MMO, but a cooperative RPG.

" Timers as DPS checks. I dislike timers, they are immersion breaking and don’t make much sense."

The whole game is immersion breaking. I agree, if there is a opportunity to do something like you suggested, go for it. However, there isn’t a big need to go out of your way and do something. Raids are challenging group content, not living story.

My god. You mean they are introducing bosses that require you to…

1. Play good builds.
2. Know the mechanics.
3. Coordinate with your teammates.

???

SAY IT AINT SO THE GAME IS RUINED!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Do not want easy fights – I want to feel like I earned the win and be rewarded for it.
2. Do not want to be blinded by particle effects – This can happen with 5 man parties.
3. Do not want Soulbound Rewards – I’d like to be able to sell the drops to make gold.
4. Do not want to only run once a week. – Allow for rewards to be given every time this is completed with a separate list of items that can only be earned once a week.
5. Do not want to waste time doing nothing. – please limit the amount of events where it just requires standing around or waiting.

This guy is mad about DPS Checks but is okay with, and actually suggests, that teams that “defeat a boss in under 5 minutes are triple rewarded”. Are you seriously that naive?

You know what will happen? Exactly what you tried to foolishly stop on your first point.

No one wants to get 1/3 of the rewards.

Another fundamental flaw in your logic: by adding 3x the rewards if the boss is completed in <X minutes, that means your Boss is already nerfed by default.

A raid boss should be extremely difficult to kill. The challenge shouldnt lie in killing him in less that X time. Thats just downleveling yout encounter that was supposed to be extremely hard in the first place.

Actually i didn’t want raids altogether i expected more world boss fights like teq or triple wurm

The problem with DPS checks in gw2 is that dps is simple.

1) Know what your highest dps weapons are.
2) Use them
3) Know what your highest dps skills on said weapons are
4) Prioritize highest dps skills first when dpsing

Utility > DPS when necessary, but often it’s not necessary. So it’s burn and done. It’s not like in WoW or FFXIV where an optimal dps rotation might be quite complicated and require maintaining stacks of a buff. It’s just stack might and spam.

So dps checks are pointless and, in my view, the focus should be on group mechanics.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

This guy is mad about DPS Checks but is okay with, and actually suggests, that teams that “defeat a boss in under 5 minutes are triple rewarded”. Are you seriously that naive?

You know what will happen? Exactly what you tried to foolishly stop on your first point.

No one wants to get 1/3 of the rewards.

Another fundamental flaw in your logic: by adding 3x the rewards if the boss is completed in <X minutes, that means your Boss is already nerfed by default.

A raid boss should be extremely difficult to kill. The challenge shouldnt lie in killing him in less that X time. Thats just downleveling yout encounter that was supposed to be extremely hard in the first place.

No one wants to get 1/3rd of the rewards. Get your friends, get your guild and coordinate for maximum efficiency.
Then again, no one wants to be kicked from every raid group because they don’t think your condi-trap ranger is viable.

They are two entirely different entities.

The issue with combat design and difficulty is you must design it to be beaten, if the conditions of victory is to strict, it becomes to hard. Another reason why DPS checking is just an artificial difficulty, adding a strict condition to a challenge because it can be beaten with good coordination.

Eventually, people will fall into dominant strategy when a raid meta is not only born but mastered quickly. If you want to prevent that, you want challenges that can beaten in any timely manor but also reward the groups that preform the best.

This is where DPS checking fails on many levels, they are just pointless.

The more room you allow for error, the more people can join in a raid and in contrast, the more mistakes that can be made and the less of a chance for a firm meta to be born.

This does NOT mean things will not be hard.
___________________________________________________________

Fun note: I actually got infracted for posting this in the wrong forum, I knew there was a dungeon forum but not for raids. Still though, I really hope ArenaNet isn’t looking at this and heavily disagreeing with everything being said here.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

This guy is mad about DPS Checks but is okay with, and actually suggests, that teams that “defeat a boss in under 5 minutes are triple rewarded”. Are you seriously that naive?

You know what will happen? Exactly what you tried to foolishly stop on your first point.

No one wants to get 1/3 of the rewards.

Another fundamental flaw in your logic: by adding 3x the rewards if the boss is completed in <X minutes, that means your Boss is already nerfed by default.

A raid boss should be extremely difficult to kill. The challenge shouldnt lie in killing him in less that X time. Thats just downleveling yout encounter that was supposed to be extremely hard in the first place.

No one wants to get 1/3rd of the rewards. Get your friends, get your guild and coordinate for maximum efficiency.
Then again, no one wants to be kicked from every raid group because they don’t think your condi-trap ranger is viable.

They are two entirely different entities.

---

The issue with combat design and difficulty is you must design it to be beaten, if the conditions of victory is to strict, it becomes to hard. Another reason why DPS checking is just an artificial difficulty, adding a strict condition to a challenge because it can be beaten with good coordination.

Eventually, people will fall into dominant strategy when a raid meta is not only born but mastered quickly. If you want to prevent that, you want challenges that can beaten in any timely manor but also reward the groups that preform the best.

This is where DPS checking fails on many levels, they are just pointless.

The more room you allow for error, the more people can join in a raid and in contrast, the more mistakes that can be made and the less of a chance for a firm meta to be born.

This does NOT mean things will not be hard.
___________________________________________________________

Fun note: I actually got infracted for posting this in the wrong forum, I knew there was a dungeon forum but not for raids. Still though, I really hope ArenaNet isn’t looking at this and heavily disagreeing with everything being said here.

People will be kicked no matter how hard or easy the content is, not much is going to change that fact. People get kicked from AC groups just because they are a certain class, so that doesn’t give me much hope with raid groups. If a group does have good coordination, then they should be able to beat any enrage timer, seeing that proper builds and group composition is also part of of it. There will still be a meta with your idea, because everyone will still want max rewards, and not everyone will have friends or guildies to help with that. Finally I think we shouldn’t be leaving that much room for error, I still want it to be a challenge to actually complete it, with a little extra for the completely insane people out there.

BobbyT.7192:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

This guy is mad about DPS Checks but is okay with, and actually suggests, that teams that “defeat a boss in under 5 minutes are triple rewarded”. Are you seriously that naive?

You know what will happen? Exactly what you tried to foolishly stop on your first point.

No one wants to get 1/3 of the rewards.

Another fundamental flaw in your logic: by adding 3x the rewards if the boss is completed in <X minutes, that means your Boss is already nerfed by default.

A raid boss should be extremely difficult to kill. The challenge shouldnt lie in killing him in less that X time. Thats just downleveling yout encounter that was supposed to be extremely hard in the first place.

No one wants to get 1/3rd of the rewards. Get your friends, get your guild and coordinate for maximum efficiency.
Then again, no one wants to be kicked from every raid group because they don’t think your condi-trap ranger is viable.

They are two entirely different entities.

---

The issue with combat design and difficulty is you must design it to be beaten, if the conditions of victory is to strict, it becomes to hard. Another reason why DPS checking is just an artificial difficulty, adding a strict condition to a challenge because it can be beaten with good coordination.

Eventually, people will fall into dominant strategy when a raid meta is not only born but mastered quickly. If you want to prevent that, you want challenges that can beaten in any timely manor but also reward the groups that preform the best.

This is where DPS checking fails on many levels, they are just pointless.

The more room you allow for error, the more people can join in a raid and in contrast, the more mistakes that can be made and the less of a chance for a firm meta to be born.

This does NOT mean things will not be hard.
___________________________________________________________

Fun note: I actually got infracted for posting this in the wrong forum, I knew there was a dungeon forum but not for raids. Still though, I really hope ArenaNet isn’t looking at this and heavily disagreeing with everything being said here.

People will be kicked no matter how hard or easy the content is, not much is going to change that fact. People get kicked from AC groups just because they are a certain class, so that doesn’t give me much hope with raid groups. If a group does have good coordination, then they should be able to beat any enrage timer, seeing that proper builds and group composition is also part of of it. There will still be a meta with your idea, because everyone will still want max rewards, and not everyone will have friends or guildies to help with that. Finally I think we shouldn’t be leaving that much room for error, I still want it to be a challenge to actually complete it, with a little extra for the completely insane people out there.

" If a group does have good coordination, then they should be able to beat any enrage timer, seeing that proper builds and group composition is also part of of it."
That is exactly the problem and is exactly why DPS checks are utterly pointless.

In a sense, anyone can beat it with the right build and group. So why make a DPS check in the first place? If anything it just rewards bad team comps.

Against the Vale Guardian, you can easily bring 9 bearbow rangers and 1 revenant for boon removal. 5 condi, 5 power and just poked the guardian to death while the pets tank everything. If the pets truly hold aggro, it would make for the safest and most effective way to successfully beat the boss with little chance of failure.

A team of bearbow rangers would be more optimized for success vs. a rage timer than a team of mixed matched professions. DPS checks are just bad design, period.

This is where reward challenges should be considered in my point 2, something is already really hard but for the uber hardcore, for the teams that completely optimize for the best results should get the best rewards.

If you complain about not getting the most rewards, tough. Optimize your build or find the right team.

I dont want to say anything about 2-5, but #1 it’s just lol. Dps check always needed and in any game dd role filled with people with min-max gear and build. No stupid nomad, tanky build or any other reaper shi~ . Full dps, metazerk – it’s all u need.

Nova Stiker.8396:

The more room you allow for error, the more people can join in a raid and in contrast, the more mistakes that can be made and the less of a chance for a firm meta to be born.
This does NOT mean things will not be hard.

The more room you allow for error, the easier the raid is.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Team of bearbows, it would make for the safest and most effective way to successfully beat the boss with little chance of failure.

Dude are you trolling?

Effective doesnt mean what you think it means.

DPS Checkers exist exactly for that reason: to prevent kittened builds that are braindead to play and extremely safe and tanky to be able to just afk or chill through a raid encounter.

DPS check keeps them on their toes. Let me remind you that the main objective in PvE is to kill the enemies. Not to outlast them and see who dies first from old age.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

DPS check keeps them on their toes. Let me remind you that the main objective in PvE is to kill the enemies. Not to outlast them and see who dies first from old age.

The new fractals tend to disagree.

What I don’t want :

• Being unable to use gliding and mushroom jump.
• The addition of a DPS meter. DPS is not everything. However, a solo fight, checking if someone have enough DPS & Survival for raiding, gating the access to raids is a thing.

I seriously doubt a bowbear team would even have the mental capacity to even enter a raid or tie their shoes, let alone beat a boss.

If you complain about not getting the most rewards, tough. Optimize your build or find the right team.

That’s how a meta is made, because anything that doesn’t give full rewards is a waste of time

BobbyT.7192:

I seriously doubt a bowbear team would even have the mental capacity to even enter a raid or tie their shoes, let alone beat a boss.

If you complain about not getting the most rewards, tough. Optimize your build or find the right team.

That’s how a meta is made, because anything that doesn’t give full rewards is a waste of time

Yet we still have no problems skipping certain champion bosses or events in dungeons.

Are you really sure you believe your own words? I can name numerous champions and even chests that are skipped in dungeon paths.

Also, the way the DPS checking is setup with the Vale Guardian, a competent bearbow team can safely and easily beat the boss and even beat it faster than most teams.
They have the damage, they have the condi from shortbow, the only thing missing is boon removal but 1 Revenant can fix that.

Let that sink in.

Then question why even bother with a rage timer when a bearbow team can pass the DPS check.

Without a DPS check this is what the new raid will look like. So a simple answer is needed. Do you want raids to look like this or no? Just a yes or no is needed.

“Also, the way the DPS checking is setup with the Vale Guardian, a competent bearbow team can safely and easily beat the boss and even beat it faster than most teams.
They have the damage, they have the condi from shortbow, the only thing missing is boon removal but 1 Revenant can fix that.

Let that sink in.

Then question why even bother with a rage timer when a bearbow team can pass the DPS check."

If this is true then the DPS timer needs to be lower, but I don’t think it is. All your doing is proving our point.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Without a DPS check this is what the new raid will look like. So a simple answer is needed. Do you want raids to look like this or no? Just a yes or no is needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0anv1XswfIc

“Also, the way the DPS checking is setup with the Vale Guardian, a competent bearbow team can safely and easily beat the boss and even beat it faster than most teams.
They have the damage, they have the condi from shortbow, the only thing missing is boon removal but 1 Revenant can fix that.

Let that sink in.

Then question why even bother with a rage timer when a bearbow team can pass the DPS check."

If this is true then the DPS timer needs to be lower, but I don’t think it is. All your doing is proving our point.

What is your point? Nothing you said justified DPS checking. NOTHING. Try actually saying something good about DPS checking before claiming not having it is bad.
You can attack my point, but you utterly fail to defend yours.

Raids to look like what? You asked a question with a hour long video, just explain it.

I just stated, a bearbow team can beat the DPS checking. It’s not like they are running clerics. No, these rangers are running sinister and zerkers, spirit and trap utilities, swapping pets as soon as they get low, you got a recipe for easy success.

If anything, lowering the timer would make it even WORSE for teams and even more rewarding for a complete cheese comp. Punishing everyone carrying soldiers, knights, shaman or any stat that isn’t pure, raw damage.

Heres the fact: The Vale Guardian, as in the beta, DPS checking mechanic can be beaten effectively by a bearbow team.

As stupid as that is, it’s completely true.

So, I ask again, why bother with a DPS check?

Why bother with a DPS check?

Because I don’t want to play with YOU in my group!

Edit If it can be beaten by a full bear bow team, I look forward to seeing your Day 1 Kill Video of the Vale Guardian… Don’t worry, I’ll wait.

A DPS check set’s a standard that can be measured against. If you don’t measure up then you don’t get the rewards. With this in place they can more aggressively reward those who can complete it. I feel a DPS check encourages better gameplay by nudging you to see how far you can push your damage and still be able to complete the content. It’s common knowledge to wear gear with no defensive stats requires more skill than playing with defensive gear (ie soldiers, clerics, dire) Dealing more damage means the enemies will die quicker and thus you can complete content quicker. Without a DPS check it would allow builds that don’t risk anything to be rewarded in content that is supposed to reward skillful play.

Just as an example
a while back a I believe RT did a no dodge Arah dungeon run which showed 5 players in full cleric gear beating an end game dungeon without using dodge. We can all agree that dodging key skills requires some amount of skill. It did take them considerable longer to clear the dungeon and they risked less by playing with a defensive gear set. This should not be a viable setup for content encouraging skillful like raids. Skillful play should be required since we have been asking for difficult content.

Link to the video here https://youtu.be/b2VhmwLwvrM