Guild Wars 2

I know a thief is viable in dungeons, and I’m not really wanting a discussion of ‘should they go or not. Kick thieves or not.’

I have 4 lvl 80s so far, and my Thief is as close to a ‘main’ as I get. I love my thief for open world play and WvW. Just not so much in dungeons.

In CM, when I find myself tossing out smoke screen to deal with snipers and the like, I keep missing my guardian’s wall of reflection.

I felt like I had found a niche in boss DPS, but frankly, my warrior hits harder.

I’ve started taking my mesmer to dungeons, and I feel like I offer more group utility from the mesmer….

So, I went back and asked myself: What can my thief bring to dungeons that I can’t offer as well or better from another platform?

The biggest utility I see in the theif is Shadow Refuge, which is really only useful if you skip stuff, and as a stealth res or for a life steal combo field…. it’s a great skill, but the thief has to offer more than one great skill.

Really interested in input, seriously looking for reasons to dust off my thief!

I honestly can’t think of any. Thief brings smokescreen and some spammable blast finishers to the field, but also very poor sustained damage until a boss gets to < 50% health, and at that point it’s simply ‘doable’ damage. I don’t like rangers on my team for the same reason, their single target is mediocre, their AoE is doable, and their support is nearly nonexistent (healing spring is the only thing of value they have, and maybe frost spirit – I can’t confirm if the 10% is constant or not). And most engineers (as much as I love being one, don’t tell me that you’ve never seen an engineer use a flamethrower in a dungeon – for those who don’t know, it’s our worst DPS option next to using our mainhand pistol) as well, I’ve only found 1 other who smartly plays the class, most others rub themselves in elixirs and pretend might has a notable impact on flamethrower damage. Truthfully, compared to even the best thief/rangers, you get a lot more mileage from an ele spamming blast finishers into his own fire field, a guardian running WoR (especially if traited, dear god!), any half-intelligent warrior given the skill ceiling to the class (push 1, 2, 3 if they’re against the wall, and make sure that banner of discipline and FGJ is always on cooldown), or an engineer stacking up the vulnerability, crowd control, and heal fields for everyone to enjoy (not to mention eating up 70-100% of the bleed cap with one trait, varying from no bleed runes to all bleed runes).

Shadow Refuge is pretty spiffy. I’d welcome any Thief who brought that on their skill bar.

1. Easy, spammable blast finisher
2. AoE projectile block (smoke screen)
3. Shadow Refuge ressing

Yes, you listed classes do specific things better than a Thief, but which class brings everything to the table? You can’t compare thief to some aggregate of 5 different other classes: that’s just not fair.

Ursan.7846:

1. Easy, spammable blast finisher
2. AoE projectile block (smoke screen)
3. Shadow Refuge ressing

Yes, you listed classes do specific things better than a Thief, but which class brings everything to the table? You can’t compare thief to some aggregate of 5 different other classes: that’s just not fair.

Jack of All Trades / Master of None? Single platform to cover any gaps left by other people in the group?

When I go dungeon crawling with a thief, I expect two things. One: you butt better be hot! I don’t care of you’re male or female. You wear leather armor! You best be working it! Two: spam those poisons! If you see a spider, poison it! If you see a dragon, poison it. If you see Jack Thompson, backstab, bleed and then poison! I don’t care if it is a stone wall, poison it!

On a serious note, being able to spam attacks with little concern for cooldown may make thieves the best class for interrupts. It’s just a theory but if thieves can stop bosses from doing 1-hit kills, they could be the best support class ever.

CassieGold.7460:

Ursan.7846:

1. Easy, spammable blast finisher
2. AoE projectile block (smoke screen)
3. Shadow Refuge ressing

Yes, you listed classes do specific things better than a Thief, but which class brings everything to the table? You can’t compare thief to some aggregate of 5 different other classes: that’s just not fair.

Jack of All Trades / Master of None? Single platform to cover any gaps left by other people in the group?

I won’t say Jack of All Trades. There are many things Thieves can’t do well at all.

But I just have to point out it’s an exercise in futility if you want to compare one class to the best parts of several other classes.

Warriors can’t

Reflect projectiles like Guard/Mesmer/Ele
Bring party-wide damage mitigation/healing like Guard/Ele
Don’t do as much condition damage as Necro/Ranger
Have no easy access to combo fields like Ele/Necro/Ranger

Does that mean Wars are inferior? No, they enjoy certain advantages. Again, comparing one class to an agglomerate of 4-5 other different classes is pretty pointless! Learn what your class does well, and stick with it!

EDIT: oh yea, as poster before me mentions, easy removal of Defiant stacks, which in organized groups is HUGE.

The feeling of thieves as not so useful is mostly in my opinion a problem of perception, both from thief players and others.

Usually thieves focus on direct damage in PvE. While both their single target and multi-target dps are respectable, they can’t really compete for the top in either category give or take a few specific scenarios. I honestly think that thieves has some of the best support abilities in the game. The problem is that these support are a lot more subtle, compared to more conventional support such as block or heal. Most noticeable amongst which are blind, interrupt and vulnerability. You definitely notice that aegis that guardian gives you, those might stacks a warrior gives you, or the heal an elementalist gives you. But those vulnerability stacks or all those misses from mobs attacks players don’t really realize they come from a thief. Needless to mention blast finishers and stealth, but I think they get enough attentions already.

It’s hard to appreciate a thieve in most instances, simply because people don’t play to their strength in general PvE. This is a direct problem with most of the PvE content being so trivial that this was simply never called for. But you’ll notice it if you ever play with a good thief. I have to come to know a few in fractals. They are not bad in anyway, they are just less easy to comprehend.

P.S: blast finishers are good, but the true strength of a thief are in the #4 skills, with any weapon.

P.P.S : if anyone is truly interested in this topic, I would point you to this post:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/78598-usage-of-a-thief-in-higher-fractals-and-dungeons/page__st__30
this post contains all the reasons you need, and also some bad misconceptions about thieves.

I had a thief come into my TA run and when I asked if he could stealth us, he replied: “I don’t have stealth in my build.”

The only thing that a thief is really good for is that stealth which is becoming more and more useless with the stealth kits (10s and the 3s spyskits)

Ursan.7846:

But I just have to point out it’s an exercise in futility if you want to compare one class to the best parts of several other classes.

That’s what I’m looking for: The best part of thief in dungeons. If I want a strong defensive and support character, I grab my guardian. If I need to pour damage out the end of a sharp implement, I grab my warrior. What is the situation that should be crying out to me: “Go grab your thief!”

For me, the strongest part of thief has always centered around sustained mobility. The class is slippery as all get out, very good for hit and run, and getting quickly where it needs to go. In open world, and WvW, that’s a huge asset…. not so much in more confined dungeon areas.

Poison: Poison I like, and it is a condition I see lacking in many dungeon groups… lots of people stack bleed, and several classes can stack duration on burning, but Poison is frequently neglected.

I feel pretty self contained on the Thief. I’ve tried leeching venoms and a few other things to focus more on party benefit, but I tend to feel that the thief brings an ability to be independant that isn’t as needed in the dungeon group.

If dungeon design focused more on splitting, I think thief would be huge, but how often do you split your team to cover two objectives simultaniously?

CassieGold.7460:

That’s what I’m looking for: The best part of thief in dungeons. If I want a strong defensive and support character, I grab my guardian. If I need to pour damage out the end of a sharp implement, I grab my warrior. What is the situation that should be crying out to me: “Go grab your thief!”

If you want to do a little bit of both?

I do admit Thieves are one of the weaker dungeons classes, because though they do contribute some, they don’t contribute as much as say, a Guardian.

Still, a thief played by a smart player will be pretty effective and will contribute to the party. In the end, everything comes down to the player. Not everyone is worried about being the ABSOLUTE most EFFECTIVE class. If you enjoy the Thief playstyle, stick with it, and you can be effective in Dungeons. If not, don’t bother.

From what I see, thief can do 3 things more or less exclusively :
- Shadow Refuge but it’s kind of a crutch when you need it
- AoE Weakness up 100% of the time but I’m not sure it works that well on bosses anyway
- Best spamable blast finisher in the game
- Single target daze spam with S/D which is one of the best sustainable ways to drain a boss defiant stacks again and again (Headshot spam uses initiative too quickly)

Also, I guess, Basilisk Venom works on Abomination bosses and resets their frenzy stacks.

stof.9341:

- AoE Weakness up 100% of the time but I’m not sure it works that well on bosses anyway

This is pretty much THE defining benefit of having a Thief aside from Shadow Refuge. It definitely does work on bosses, because shooting through the poison field (weakness on poison) applies weakness at such a fast rate that the boss will never be able to shake it off.

Auesis.7301:

stof.9341:

- AoE Weakness up 100% of the time but I’m not sure it works that well on bosses anyway

This is pretty much THE defining benefit of having a Thief aside from Shadow Refuge. It definitely does work on bosses, because shooting through the poison field (weakness on poison) applies weakness at such a fast rate that the boss will never be able to shake it off.

Skale venom, 100% uptime on weakness if your whole party uses it. No need to ever have a class just for it.

Ioflux.4369:

Auesis.7301:

stof.9341:

- AoE Weakness up 100% of the time but I’m not sure it works that well on bosses anyway

This is pretty much THE defining benefit of having a Thief aside from Shadow Refuge. It definitely does work on bosses, because shooting through the poison field (weakness on poison) applies weakness at such a fast rate that the boss will never be able to shake it off.

Skale venom, 100% uptime on weakness if your whole party uses it. No need to ever have a class just for it.

No, it’s not. Skale Venom is a chance on crit, and I’ve yet to find what that chance actually is. This is guaranteed 100% weakness, always. The consumable is also removed when downed and most parties will forget to reapply it even if they have it. Be honest, how many groups have you seen actually use that consumable? I’ve found myself to be quite literally the only one in over 1000 hours of dungeoneering.

Auesis.7301:

Ioflux.4369:

Auesis.7301:

stof.9341:

- AoE Weakness up 100% of the time but I’m not sure it works that well on bosses anyway

This is pretty much THE defining benefit of having a Thief aside from Shadow Refuge. It definitely does work on bosses, because shooting through the poison field (weakness on poison) applies weakness at such a fast rate that the boss will never be able to shake it off.

Skale venom, 100% uptime on weakness if your whole party uses it. No need to ever have a class just for it.

No, it’s not. Skale Venom is a chance on crit. This is guaranteed 100% weakness, always, no gamble. It’s also removed when downed and most parties will forget to reapply it even if they have it. Be honest, how many groups have you seen actually use that consumable? I’ve found myself to be quite literally the only one in over 1000 hours of dungeoneering.

Skale Venom, the thief venom ability, not the consumable item.

On itself, 3 attacks, 5 seconds each, stacks in duration. If using venom aura, it’ll be 100% uptime.

1 question : do you want thief > all ? You said its your main in pvp and wvw so that means thiefs are good there … so.. you want them to be better than all classes at all things ?

Thieves have the best access to blind in the game(followed shortly by guardians). A good corner pull with a thief’s constant blind makes groups of mobs melt with ease. More black powder and more smoke screen please thieves.

Jzl.8715:

Auesis.7301:

Ioflux.4369:

Auesis.7301:

stof.9341:

- AoE Weakness up 100% of the time but I’m not sure it works that well on bosses anyway

This is pretty much THE defining benefit of having a Thief aside from Shadow Refuge. It definitely does work on bosses, because shooting through the poison field (weakness on poison) applies weakness at such a fast rate that the boss will never be able to shake it off.

Skale venom, 100% uptime on weakness if your whole party uses it. No need to ever have a class just for it.

No, it’s not. Skale Venom is a chance on crit. This is guaranteed 100% weakness, always, no gamble. It’s also removed when downed and most parties will forget to reapply it even if they have it. Be honest, how many groups have you seen actually use that consumable? I’ve found myself to be quite literally the only one in over 1000 hours of dungeoneering.

Skale Venom, the thief venom ability, not the consumable item.

On itself, 3 attacks, 5 seconds each, stacks in duration. If using venom aura, it’ll be 100% uptime.

Right, when Venomous Aura has the range of my toenail. Unless you’re all in voice communication and you shout STACK every time you want to apply the venom, you won’t have anywhere close to 100% uptime. Plus, using Choking Gas + 15 Deadly Arts, you have absolutely no need to waste a utility slot and a Grandmaster trait just for the same end result.

Auesis.7301:

Jzl.8715:

Auesis.7301:

Ioflux.4369:

Auesis.7301:

stof.9341:

- AoE Weakness up 100% of the time but I’m not sure it works that well on bosses anyway

This is pretty much THE defining benefit of having a Thief aside from Shadow Refuge. It definitely does work on bosses, because shooting through the poison field (weakness on poison) applies weakness at such a fast rate that the boss will never be able to shake it off.

Skale venom, 100% uptime on weakness if your whole party uses it. No need to ever have a class just for it.

No, it’s not. Skale Venom is a chance on crit. This is guaranteed 100% weakness, always, no gamble. It’s also removed when downed and most parties will forget to reapply it even if they have it. Be honest, how many groups have you seen actually use that consumable? I’ve found myself to be quite literally the only one in over 1000 hours of dungeoneering.

Skale Venom, the thief venom ability, not the consumable item.

On itself, 3 attacks, 5 seconds each, stacks in duration. If using venom aura, it’ll be 100% uptime.

Right, when Venomous Aura has the range of my toenail. Unless you’re all in voice communication and you shout STACK every time you want to apply the venom, you won’t have anywhere close to 100% uptime. Plus, using Choking Gas + 15 Deadly Arts, you have absolutely no need to waste a utility slot and a Grandmaster trait just for the same end result.

First of all, we are talking about a very specific situation of where it is possible. Venomous Aura has a 300 range, 15 seconds for each person applied, 30 seconds cooldown, 24 if traited. Which means as long as 1 person is within your 300 range it’s 100% uptime.

Again, we are talking very specific situation regarding a few claims and ambiguities made by other posts. Yes, I understand that it’s more of a PvP thing, yes I understand that it takes coordination for best effectiveness, and yes I understand that since release it is generally viewed as not so effective in PvE because you have to trait heavily into venom and the situation generally don’t call it. Any other questions?

EDIT: Also I want to point out that I wasn’t intending in quoting you in the first place the person I intended to quote possibly deleted him post. In any case..

5 people with skale venom gives 100% uptime on weakness. Only really need it for bosses.

When I do dungeons on my Thief, I recognize that I can die at the drop of a hat, and must play accordingly. By not dying and still outputting awesome ranged DPS with my shortbow or pistols, I contribute to my dungeon groups.

Proper shortbow usage is key to dungeoning with a Thief. It’s fine to have a melee weapon, but know when to use it. You WILL die if you don’t dodge, and shortbow not only keeps you at range, but it gives you a dodge with the 3 skill. Also, shortbow has fantastic AoE damage, and even good single target damage with clusterbomb(when you blow it up just as it hits so the target gets 3 stacks of bleed and 3 hits of damage). Poison, mobility, blast finishing, bouncing shots, the shortbow does it all for a Thief in a dungeon. And to survive, you dodge. You don’t tank. If you live, you deal damage and don’t slow the team down.

Thieves bring a LOT of utility to dungeons, and can do things other classes cannot. The amount of stealth they have lets them sneak past groups with their entire party better than even a mesmer can do, and more easily. They can use their shadowstep skills(utility, sword, shortbow, etc) to trivialize some dungeon puzzles or fights. They can res downed people easily with stealth skills. And with proper traits, they can dodge tank forever, cripple enemies permanently, apply weakness 100% of the time in an aoe, steal important boons from enemies, and interrupt crucial bosses.

You guys underestimate what a Thief can do. Thieves underestimate what thieves can do. But the average thief will not live up to their dungeoning potential, unlike how easy it is to thief in wvw.

For a dungeoning thief, knowledge is power. Know what weaponsets to use on what boss, know what you can do to easily pass a puzzle, know what trivializes a boss fight, know how to make it so your party can fly through the dungeon due to your unique skillset.

Bring every weapon type in your inventory as a thief. There are encounters that work best with Dual Pistols, Encounters that work best with Dual Daggers, and yes, even encounters that work best with Flanking Strike. Or Dagger/Pistol. Or Sword/Pistol. Or Pistol/Dagger. Everything has its place.

Examples: A thief is the only class that can rapidly burn defiance charges with multiple headshots. Built right, you can headshot 4 times, shadow refuge yourself, wait 3-4 seconds, then headshot 4 times again. This is if you HAVE to burn the defiance charges to prepare for a stun, not to just spam headshot willy-nilly. Some bosses require stuns, like the Dredge Machine or Ice Elemental in the Dredge Fractal(If they don’t get hit by the molten metal, you can interrupt their heal super easily with headshot while moving to the next bucket).

Flanking Strike allows you to stay up in Subject Alpha’s face in Cruciable of Eternity. You can autoattack all day, and when the AoE of death pops up, just flanking strike before the earth ring pops up. You dodge it automatically and keep doing damage to alpha without missing a beat. Save steal for breaking out of his crystal prison(keep shadowstep on your bar for breaking out too). The dodge trick works for Death Blossom and Shortbow’s D-Shot as well, not so well for Pistol Whip due to the timing involved.

In Caudecus Manor, for the centaur boss, you can go under the raft underwater, go directly under him, and spear him to death. Do it at max range and you’ll autoattack him without being pushed back(you will have to manually hit 1). Since your spear applies poison on the third hit, if you trait properly you will apply weakness all fight without ever being hit, making the fight easier for your party and doing great sustained damage nonstop.

Again in CM, against the guardian boss, you can spam headshot to burn defiance, then use scorpion wire to pull her out of her retaliation symbol, making the fight so much faster for your team.

In CoE, you can shadowstep past the laser grid with the shortbow and/or the utility skill. Same for any dungeon with traps.

In the crazy cat golem fractal, at the stairs that send electric waves down, a thief can go up and shadowstep to deactivate all 3 by himself, shadowstepping after each one is deactivated.

There’s so many other tricks one can learn to master the dungeon as a thief. I bend the dungeons to my will, and so should you.

dani.1956:

1 question : do you want thief > all ? You said its your main in pvp and wvw so that means thiefs are good there … so.. you want them to be better than all classes at all things ?

Not looking for better than all classes in all things. Struggling with what strengths to bring to dungeons from a thief platform.

When I play games, I tend to work my way up to a max level character in each profession, then bring whatever character is best suited to the situational need.

I want to say a huge thank you to those who have mentioned some of the condition pressure (blind, poison, vulnerability, weakness.) I had left P/P and S/D behind in my early days of mostly open world PvE and I think I may have gotten myself into a D/D & SB rut without realizing some of the opportunities I’d left by the wayside as AoE seemed to be king in Orr and elsewhere.

Back to the drawing board I go on my thief, and thanks for the advice!

There’s no reason to have a thief at all. Every class can do something they can but better, except stealth. Not really a big need for that in any dungeon. Thief = WvW, sorry but that’s all they shine at.

I really try not to but, whenever a thief joins my party to do a dungeon I always sigh. Personally, I just feel thieves don’t bring anything to the table. I’ll never kick them, but I don’t like it especially considering they are ALWAYS the first ones to go down constantly.

Thieves can out-dps warriors in a cleave, but thieves also die twice as fast. They’re effectively just squishy warriors in terms of their role in PvE.

I main thief, I love it. However I couldn’t really justify to anyone why I should do a dungeon on my thief other than I enjoy it.

I don’t mind if I do fractals past 30, I’m happy getting to the twenty range since I’m a collector who enjoys ascended rings and such. That being said, I want to be as useful to my group as humanly possible.

I know how to dodge and rarely die on fights, I know how to use black powder on groups when it’s needed, I know how to apply weakness with daggers and poison, I know how to shadow refuge to stealth my group and revive the downed, I’m learning how and when to use Smoke Screen properly; I use Dagger Storm to repel projectiles when needed, etc…

Anyone have any fractal suggestions then? What should I do, and where? Ways I can help the group out on specific fights, and in specific fractals? Even if I’m not the most useful group member, I at least want to help the group as much as I can.

Why bring a thief? Cause they can shadow step around and look bad kitten doing it! Need I say more?

My thief easily maintains 15+ aoe bleeds at ~100damage on its own, is extremely durable, and gives aoe might 4 stacks, swiftness, fury, vigor, (at around 45% up time) on top of the usual capabilities of smokescreen and refuge.

Want me?

Thief? the one who always sleep on the floor first? Yeah that one. Either they output too high dps, in turn get aggro, and then die, or they are negligible. In dungeon, or fotm, unless it’s farming like COF, the key is to survive. After all, no matter how hax your dps is, if you are always dodging or running away, you are not actually attacking.

Let’s put it this way, most dungeons can be skipped safely even without group stealth. For mobs that are too hard and people die, chances are the thief will die very soon too, so stealth ressing is a gimmick. So for those reasons, it’s always easier to bring, say a guardian, which prevents people from dying in the first place.

Most dungeons are about sustained dps (not burst). Many people play dungeons like they are all meant to be played across the board like COF. They don’t work the same way.

As someone who recently mained a Thief, I bring:

- Permablinds (Black Powder)

- Anti-Defiant (A thief can consistently chip away stacks using Headshot. It’s the Warrior’s fault he isn’t using this opportunity.)

- Shadow Refuge

- SUSTAINED DPS (Pistol whip in a Glassy initiative regen build should not be underestimated.)

- Spammable blast finishers

- Perma weakness or poison

- Boon stripping

Honestly, I don’t see why it is people hate thiefs. We have tons of survivability options, and if people are still dying, they must be playing like shadowstepping assassin “narutards” from GW1.

We have tons of survivability, including an on-demand reflect. However, with each Unload and Pistol whip, we regain 900 HP using Signet of Malice MINIMUM! And that’s WITHOUT life-steal!

I wouldn’t call myself a pro, but I wonder what those PUGs are doing wrong to die as a Thief? We’re pretty comparable to a Guardian in that we make up for our low HP with all our survivability options.

Kain Francois.4328:

As someone who recently mained a Thief, I bring:

- Permablinds (Black Powder)

- Anti-Defiant (A thief can consistently chip away stacks using Headshot. It’s the Warrior’s fault he isn’t using this opportunity.)

- Shadow Refuge

- SUSTAINED DPS (Pistol whip in a Glassy initiative regen build should not be underestimated.)

- Spammable blast finishers

- Perma weakness or poison

- Boon stripping

Honestly, I don’t see why it is people hate thiefs. We have tons of survivability options, and if people are still dying, they must be playing like shadowstepping assassin “narutards” from GW1.

We have tons of survivability, including an on-demand reflect. However, with each Unload and Pistol whip, we regain 900 HP using Signet of Malice MINIMUM! And that’s WITHOUT life-steal!

I wouldn’t call myself a pro, but I wonder what those PUGs are doing wrong to die as a Thief? We’re pretty comparable to a Guardian in that we make up for our low HP with all our survivability options.

To say that you are survivable is one thing, but to claim that you are “pretty comparable to a Guardian .. in terms of survivability options” is laughable at best. Not to underestimate a thief or any other profession, but a guardian’s survivability is unrivalled in PVE.

I think thief has:

- Strong DPS, probably a bit less than warriors, but comparable.
- Strong damage mitigation with blinds, interrupts, weakness, anti-projectile wall
- Great for cutting down defiant stacks
- Shadow refuge is great for res
- Decent survival with life on hit/life steal, mobility, and plentiful stun breaks

abelooi.9156:

Kain Francois.4328:

As someone who recently mained a Thief, I bring:

- Permablinds (Black Powder)

- Anti-Defiant (A thief can consistently chip away stacks using Headshot. It’s the Warrior’s fault he isn’t using this opportunity.)

- Shadow Refuge

- SUSTAINED DPS (Pistol whip in a Glassy initiative regen build should not be underestimated.)

- Spammable blast finishers

- Perma weakness or poison

- Boon stripping

Honestly, I don’t see why it is people hate thiefs. We have tons of survivability options, and if people are still dying, they must be playing like shadowstepping assassin “narutards” from GW1.

We have tons of survivability, including an on-demand reflect. However, with each Unload and Pistol whip, we regain 900 HP using Signet of Malice MINIMUM! And that’s WITHOUT life-steal!

I wouldn’t call myself a pro, but I wonder what those PUGs are doing wrong to die as a Thief? We’re pretty comparable to a Guardian in that we make up for our low HP with all our survivability options.

To say that you are survivable is one thing, but to claim that you are “pretty comparable to a Guardian .. in terms of survivability options” is laughable at best. Not to underestimate a thief or any other profession, but a guardian’s survivability is unrivalled in PVE.

It isn’t laughable at all. DB caltrops is untouchable in the cheapest way possible and sword/dagger can easily disengage from combat whenever the thief chooses. I outlive guardians all the time in fractals. Thats not to say me being the only one alive does much for the rest of the dead party members, but thieves are easy to be ‘tanky’ if people get out of the glass cannon roles.

Derk.3189:

abelooi.9156:

Kain Francois.4328:

As someone who recently mained a Thief, I bring:

- Permablinds (Black Powder)

- Anti-Defiant (A thief can consistently chip away stacks using Headshot. It’s the Warrior’s fault he isn’t using this opportunity.)

- Shadow Refuge

- SUSTAINED DPS (Pistol whip in a Glassy initiative regen build should not be underestimated.)

- Spammable blast finishers

- Perma weakness or poison

- Boon stripping

Honestly, I don’t see why it is people hate thiefs. We have tons of survivability options, and if people are still dying, they must be playing like shadowstepping assassin “narutards” from GW1.

We have tons of survivability, including an on-demand reflect. However, with each Unload and Pistol whip, we regain 900 HP using Signet of Malice MINIMUM! And that’s WITHOUT life-steal!

I wouldn’t call myself a pro, but I wonder what those PUGs are doing wrong to die as a Thief? We’re pretty comparable to a Guardian in that we make up for our low HP with all our survivability options.

To say that you are survivable is one thing, but to claim that you are “pretty comparable to a Guardian .. in terms of survivability options” is laughable at best. Not to underestimate a thief or any other profession, but a guardian’s survivability is unrivalled in PVE.

It isn’t laughable at all. DB caltrops is untouchable in the cheapest way possible and sword/dagger can easily disengage from combat whenever the thief chooses. I outlive guardians all the time in fractals. Thats not to say me being the only one alive does much for the rest of the dead party members, but thieves are easy to be ‘tanky’ if people get out of the glass cannon roles.

Difference is that a guardian can stay in the fight and do damage while they’re absorbing damage. You’re disengaging and evading, which causes drops in DPS, as well as you aren’t being a damage sponge for your team. I’m aware you’re condition damage, so you probably always have bleed stacks ticking away, but what you’re referring to as survivability on your thief is different to that of a guardian.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Derk.3189:

abelooi.9156:

Kain Francois.4328:

As someone who recently mained a Thief, I bring:

- Permablinds (Black Powder)

- Anti-Defiant (A thief can consistently chip away stacks using Headshot. It’s the Warrior’s fault he isn’t using this opportunity.)

- Shadow Refuge

- SUSTAINED DPS (Pistol whip in a Glassy initiative regen build should not be underestimated.)

- Spammable blast finishers

- Perma weakness or poison

- Boon stripping

Honestly, I don’t see why it is people hate thiefs. We have tons of survivability options, and if people are still dying, they must be playing like shadowstepping assassin “narutards” from GW1.

We have tons of survivability, including an on-demand reflect. However, with each Unload and Pistol whip, we regain 900 HP using Signet of Malice MINIMUM! And that’s WITHOUT life-steal!

I wouldn’t call myself a pro, but I wonder what those PUGs are doing wrong to die as a Thief? We’re pretty comparable to a Guardian in that we make up for our low HP with all our survivability options.

To say that you are survivable is one thing, but to claim that you are “pretty comparable to a Guardian .. in terms of survivability options” is laughable at best. Not to underestimate a thief or any other profession, but a guardian’s survivability is unrivalled in PVE.

It isn’t laughable at all. DB caltrops is untouchable in the cheapest way possible and sword/dagger can easily disengage from combat whenever the thief chooses. I outlive guardians all the time in fractals. Thats not to say me being the only one alive does much for the rest of the dead party members, but thieves are easy to be ‘tanky’ if people get out of the glass cannon roles.

Difference is that a guardian can stay in the fight and do damage while they’re absorbing damage. You’re disengaging and evading, which causes drops in DPS, as well as you aren’t being a damage sponge for your team. I’m aware you’re condition damage, so you probably always have bleed stacks ticking away, but what you’re referring to as survivability on your thief is different to that of a guardian.

The original post is talking about survival options anyways, not tank support capabilities, which is what I assume the guy I was replying to is debating. I might not be ‘sponging’ damage for a team, but if you throw a thief and guardian of equal skill into a group, special circumstances aside, they will both come out surviving easily.

Derk.3189:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Derk.3189:

abelooi.9156:

Kain Francois.4328:

As someone who recently mained a Thief, I bring:

- Permablinds (Black Powder)

- Anti-Defiant (A thief can consistently chip away stacks using Headshot. It’s the Warrior’s fault he isn’t using this opportunity.)

- Shadow Refuge

- SUSTAINED DPS (Pistol whip in a Glassy initiative regen build should not be underestimated.)

- Spammable blast finishers

- Perma weakness or poison

- Boon stripping

Honestly, I don’t see why it is people hate thiefs. We have tons of survivability options, and if people are still dying, they must be playing like shadowstepping assassin “narutards” from GW1.

We have tons of survivability, including an on-demand reflect. However, with each Unload and Pistol whip, we regain 900 HP using Signet of Malice MINIMUM! And that’s WITHOUT life-steal!

I wouldn’t call myself a pro, but I wonder what those PUGs are doing wrong to die as a Thief? We’re pretty comparable to a Guardian in that we make up for our low HP with all our survivability options.

To say that you are survivable is one thing, but to claim that you are “pretty comparable to a Guardian .. in terms of survivability options” is laughable at best. Not to underestimate a thief or any other profession, but a guardian’s survivability is unrivalled in PVE.

It isn’t laughable at all. DB caltrops is untouchable in the cheapest way possible and sword/dagger can easily disengage from combat whenever the thief chooses. I outlive guardians all the time in fractals. Thats not to say me being the only one alive does much for the rest of the dead party members, but thieves are easy to be ‘tanky’ if people get out of the glass cannon roles.

Difference is that a guardian can stay in the fight and do damage while they’re absorbing damage. You’re disengaging and evading, which causes drops in DPS, as well as you aren’t being a damage sponge for your team. I’m aware you’re condition damage, so you probably always have bleed stacks ticking away, but what you’re referring to as survivability on your thief is different to that of a guardian.

The original post is talking about survival options anyways, not tank support capabilities, which is what I assume the guy I was replying to is debating. I might not be ‘sponging’ damage for a team, but if you throw a thief and guardian of equal skill into a group, special circumstances aside, they will both come out surviving easily.

Yes and no. Effective-survivability has to be measured based on whether or not you are contributing while surviving (sorry didn’t make this clear). Hell, I can take any toon and do zero dps and survive, that doesn’t mean nothing. Just like what the above poster said, a thief disengages frequently if they want to stay alive, take nothing away from that, but it’s a massive loss in dps or whatever support. Guardian on the other hand, survives and take it for the team. So you cannot effectively compare the survivability of the two, which I meant by laughable. Try tanking a mob while dishing out respectable damage like a guardian. It is different from say, guardian, or any other class really, can disengage like a thief and survive.

15 in deadly arts for lotus poison = MUST

shortbow 4= AOE perma poison+ weaknes alone worth the spot.

blast finishers on demand+smoke screen +shadow refuge + scorpion wire
on thief who know his role (i.e. not jumping under the boss legs with dagger/dagger) are invaluable.
10 in trickery for ‘thrill of the crime’ on steal also a great group buff every ~30 seconds.

the problem with (some of the ) thieves is that they think they are uber DPS with dagger/dagger and end up decorating the floor for most of the fights.

abelooi.9156:

Derk.3189:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Derk.3189:

abelooi.9156:

Kain Francois.4328:

As someone who recently mained a Thief, I bring:

- Permablinds (Black Powder)

- Anti-Defiant (A thief can consistently chip away stacks using Headshot. It’s the Warrior’s fault he isn’t using this opportunity.)

- Shadow Refuge

- SUSTAINED DPS (Pistol whip in a Glassy initiative regen build should not be underestimated.)

- Spammable blast finishers

- Perma weakness or poison

- Boon stripping

Honestly, I don’t see why it is people hate thiefs. We have tons of survivability options, and if people are still dying, they must be playing like shadowstepping assassin “narutards” from GW1.

We have tons of survivability, including an on-demand reflect. However, with each Unload and Pistol whip, we regain 900 HP using Signet of Malice MINIMUM! And that’s WITHOUT life-steal!

I wouldn’t call myself a pro, but I wonder what those PUGs are doing wrong to die as a Thief? We’re pretty comparable to a Guardian in that we make up for our low HP with all our survivability options.

To say that you are survivable is one thing, but to claim that you are “pretty comparable to a Guardian .. in terms of survivability options” is laughable at best. Not to underestimate a thief or any other profession, but a guardian’s survivability is unrivalled in PVE.

It isn’t laughable at all. DB caltrops is untouchable in the cheapest way possible and sword/dagger can easily disengage from combat whenever the thief chooses. I outlive guardians all the time in fractals. Thats not to say me being the only one alive does much for the rest of the dead party members, but thieves are easy to be ‘tanky’ if people get out of the glass cannon roles.

Difference is that a guardian can stay in the fight and do damage while they’re absorbing damage. You’re disengaging and evading, which causes drops in DPS, as well as you aren’t being a damage sponge for your team. I’m aware you’re condition damage, so you probably always have bleed stacks ticking away, but what you’re referring to as survivability on your thief is different to that of a guardian.

The original post is talking about survival options anyways, not tank support capabilities, which is what I assume the guy I was replying to is debating. I might not be ‘sponging’ damage for a team, but if you throw a thief and guardian of equal skill into a group, special circumstances aside, they will both come out surviving easily.

Yes and no. Effective-survivability has to be measured based on whether or not you are contributing while surviving (sorry didn’t make this clear). Hell, I can take any toon and do zero dps and survive, that doesn’t mean nothing. Just like what the above poster said, a thief disengages frequently if they want to stay alive, take nothing away from that, but it’s a massive loss in dps or whatever support. Guardian on the other hand, survives and take it for the team. So you cannot effectively compare the survivability of the two, which I meant by laughable. Try tanking a mob while dishing out respectable damage like a guardian. It is different from say, guardian, or any other class really, can disengage like a thief and survive.

Lately I’ve been running a DB caltrops build. The DPS is constant (higher DPS during DB, lower during caltrops spam, constant with bleed) and yes, I can tank a mob while doing respectable damage, like a guardian. You won’t run out of endurance, and the bleeds easily amount to 1500+dps per second. As I stated earlier, its actually quite cheap.

I have a guardian mind you, and I’ve made hilariously tanky builds but they are low on damage, and high damage builds that are low on survivability. The builds that are in between, can tank for a good amount of time, but will eventually run out of steam.

why don t bring a thief to dungeons…..:

i have yet to understand why 99,99% of thieves players dies continuosly at shaman in fractal (and at any challenging boss).

Well i know they use glasscannon builds…..but i use those too on light character…..and i don t die as much :| neither does any other glass cannon class.

Its not that i kick thieves usually, but for sure i m not happy when i see one for that reason……

Possibly i’ve been unlucky…..i found few competent thief players in pve but not often..

Derk.3189:

abelooi.9156:

Derk.3189:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Derk.3189:

abelooi.9156:

Kain Francois.4328:

As someone who recently mained a Thief, I bring:

- Permablinds (Black Powder)

- Anti-Defiant (A thief can consistently chip away stacks using Headshot. It’s the Warrior’s fault he isn’t using this opportunity.)

- Shadow Refuge

- SUSTAINED DPS (Pistol whip in a Glassy initiative regen build should not be underestimated.)

- Spammable blast finishers

- Perma weakness or poison

- Boon stripping

Honestly, I don’t see why it is people hate thiefs. We have tons of survivability options, and if people are still dying, they must be playing like shadowstepping assassin “narutards” from GW1.

We have tons of survivability, including an on-demand reflect. However, with each Unload and Pistol whip, we regain 900 HP using Signet of Malice MINIMUM! And that’s WITHOUT life-steal!

I wouldn’t call myself a pro, but I wonder what those PUGs are doing wrong to die as a Thief? We’re pretty comparable to a Guardian in that we make up for our low HP with all our survivability options.

To say that you are survivable is one thing, but to claim that you are “pretty comparable to a Guardian .. in terms of survivability options” is laughable at best. Not to underestimate a thief or any other profession, but a guardian’s survivability is unrivalled in PVE.

It isn’t laughable at all. DB caltrops is untouchable in the cheapest way possible and sword/dagger can easily disengage from combat whenever the thief chooses. I outlive guardians all the time in fractals. Thats not to say me being the only one alive does much for the rest of the dead party members, but thieves are easy to be ‘tanky’ if people get out of the glass cannon roles.

Difference is that a guardian can stay in the fight and do damage while they’re absorbing damage. You’re disengaging and evading, which causes drops in DPS, as well as you aren’t being a damage sponge for your team. I’m aware you’re condition damage, so you probably always have bleed stacks ticking away, but what you’re referring to as survivability on your thief is different to that of a guardian.

The original post is talking about survival options anyways, not tank support capabilities, which is what I assume the guy I was replying to is debating. I might not be ‘sponging’ damage for a team, but if you throw a thief and guardian of equal skill into a group, special circumstances aside, they will both come out surviving easily.

Yes and no. Effective-survivability has to be measured based on whether or not you are contributing while surviving (sorry didn’t make this clear). Hell, I can take any toon and do zero dps and survive, that doesn’t mean nothing. Just like what the above poster said, a thief disengages frequently if they want to stay alive, take nothing away from that, but it’s a massive loss in dps or whatever support. Guardian on the other hand, survives and take it for the team. So you cannot effectively compare the survivability of the two, which I meant by laughable. Try tanking a mob while dishing out respectable damage like a guardian. It is different from say, guardian, or any other class really, can disengage like a thief and survive.

Lately I’ve been running a DB caltrops build. The DPS is constant (higher DPS during DB, lower during caltrops spam, constant with bleed) and yes, I can tank a mob while doing respectable damage, like a guardian. You won’t run out of endurance, and the bleeds easily amount to 1500+dps per second. As I stated earlier, its actually quite cheap.

I have a guardian mind you, and I’ve made hilariously tanky builds but they are low on damage, and high damage builds that are low on survivability. The builds that are in between, can tank for a good amount of time, but will eventually run out of steam.

Well maybe I am wrong, but I have yet to team up with a thief who can tank as well as a guardian. Time to get my thief up. Unfortunately, even in the normal process of levelling up, the disparity between the survivability of thief and guardian is so apparent. I’ve never breezed through the content the like of guardian.

abelooi.9156:

Well maybe I am wrong, but I have yet to team up with a thief who can tank as well as a guardian. Time to get my thief up. Unfortunately, even in the normal process of levelling up, the disparity between the survivability of thief and guardian is so apparent. I’ve never breezed through the content the like of guardian.

Pistol offhand makes tanking as thief a trivial task, and that’s with glass cannon build. Your “tanking” guardian needs a “tanking” gear.

haviz.1340:

abelooi.9156:

Well maybe I am wrong, but I have yet to team up with a thief who can tank as well as a guardian. Time to get my thief up. Unfortunately, even in the normal process of levelling up, the disparity between the survivability of thief and guardian is so apparent. I’ve never breezed through the content the like of guardian.

Pistol offhand makes tanking as thief a trivial task, and that’s with glass cannon build. Your “tanking” guardian needs a “tanking” gear.

Really? I am not kidding – I would love to see a thief tank a champion or mobs. I have never seen a thief that outperforms the guardian in the role of tanking and dishing out damage. Perhaps the pro need to chime in on this.

I don’t know; I think there’s a reason why it’s always the guardian who volunteer to “tank” or “defend” something. Have you ever come across a situation or a group which ask the thief to “hey could you tank this kitten?”

Kain Francois.4328:

As someone who recently mained a Thief, I bring:

- Permablinds (Black Powder)

- Anti-Defiant (A thief can consistently chip away stacks using Headshot. It’s the Warrior’s fault he isn’t using this opportunity.)

- Shadow Refuge

- SUSTAINED DPS (Pistol whip in a Glassy initiative regen build should not be underestimated.)

- Spammable blast finishers

- Perma weakness or poison

- Boon stripping

Honestly, I don’t see why it is people hate thiefs. We have tons of survivability options, and if people are still dying, they must be playing like shadowstepping assassin “narutards” from GW1.

We have tons of survivability, including an on-demand reflect. However, with each Unload and Pistol whip, we regain 900 HP using Signet of Malice MINIMUM! And that’s WITHOUT life-steal!

I wouldn’t call myself a pro, but I wonder what those PUGs are doing wrong to die as a Thief? We’re pretty comparable to a Guardian in that we make up for our low HP with all our survivability options.

-Blind is good, but very temporary. If you use your initiative on blind, thats less for Unload which is your main source of DPS. So your sacrificing damage for a condition defensively which can be OK in some groups but I dont think its OP.

-Not sure as to what dungeon/area the Defiant removal is needed

-Shadow Refuge. I use Ash Legion Spy Kit and Order of Whispers Spy Kit. Entire professions specific skill in a consumable.

-Perma weakness or poison. Weakness I could see being used as I didnt know thiefs can but poison, not so much. Its like saying my Warrior can perma bleed. Neat, now what. Im not sure how you do the weakness bit but the thing about thiefs is when you do these it takes away from your main attacks, while lets say warriors, can just Shout in addition to doing 100b at the same time, not one or the other

-Boon Stripping. It seems most areas/dungeons when mobs have a boon, they will regain it within seconds of it being stripped. There is rarely a mob that will regain a boon, lets say every 20 seconds, leaving a downtime. Most is created by nearby enemys which are alot and even if mesmer uses null field, the enemys seem to put the boon back up.

Thiefs are one of the better squisher classes but they are far from perfect.

" the thing about thiefs is when you do these it takes away from your main attacks, while lets say warriors, can just Shout in addition to doing 100b at the same time, not one or the other"

the above is true, notice it even in my mid-level thief.

abelooi.9156:

Really? I am not kidding – I would love to see a thief tank a champion or mobs. I have never seen a thief that outperforms the guardian in the role of tanking and dishing out damage. Perhaps the pro need to chime in on this.

I don’t know; I think there’s a reason why it’s always the guardian who volunteer to “tank” or “defend” something. Have you ever come across a situation or a group which ask the thief to “hey could you tank this kitten?”

Which champ needs “tanking”, because that only works on mobs? And whenever I see guardian “tanking” it itches me to kick him immediately. There’s a reason why I write “tank” instead of tank.

1. Cluster Bomb
The best blast finisher. Combine with Fire-Fields before each battle to start encounters with 25 might stacks on the entire group.

2. Unload
Incredibly high sustained DPS during boss fights. No risk compared to Pistol Whip, since you can keep your distance. In Fractals, you can hit the Legendary Dredge mining Suit for as much as 98.000 damage with ONE unload, while still being able to move and dodge the bombs! No other class can even begin to compare to that.

haviz.1340:

abelooi.9156:

Really? I am not kidding – I would love to see a thief tank a champion or mobs. I have never seen a thief that outperforms the guardian in the role of tanking and dishing out damage. Perhaps the pro need to chime in on this.

I don’t know; I think there’s a reason why it’s always the guardian who volunteer to “tank” or “defend” something. Have you ever come across a situation or a group which ask the thief to “hey could you tank this kitten?”

Which champ needs “tanking”, because that only works on mobs? And whenever I see guardian “tanking” it itches me to kick him immediately. There’s a reason why I write “tank” instead of tank.

On another note, I have only seen people generally wanting to kick thiefs, not guardians. To an extreme even if the guardian is bad there is always something he brings to the team. Same cannot be said of thiefs. Have you ever been in a team and wished you had a thief instead of a guardian? Or said out aloud that “hey we have too many guardians, let’s get us some thiefs”.

Coz you know, if we want dps we just go for warriors, and if we want support and survivability and semi-“tank” (we use this term loosely now) we opt for guardians.

abelooi.9156:

On another note, I have only seen people generally wanting to kick thiefs, not guardians. To an extreme even if the guardian is bad there is always something he brings to the team. Same cannot be said of thiefs.

That’s because guardian is very low skill cap proffesion with a lot of passive effects. Thief needs active gameplay. And before you ask me if I have it, yes I have both guardian and thief.

Have you ever been in a team and wished you had a thief instead of a guardian? Or said out aloud that “hey we have too many guardians, let’s get us some thiefs”.

When I’m team with low dps I wish we had more glass cannons, not just thieves.

Coz you know, if we want dps we just go for warriors, and if we want support and survivability and semi-“tank” (we use this term loosely now) we opt for guardians.

Warrior glass cannon (as almost all glass cannons) works only if you know how to dodge – CoF is excluded from it, unless someone thinks that 4 mobs is a lot to handle (and even then, most pugs need stability)

We’ve four manned every explorable except two paths of AC and Arah (we haven’t tried yet, we’ve been three manning CM). Our team consists of a thief, ranger, warrior, and guardian. I really don’t have a problem with a competent thief at all.