Guild Wars 2

Did my first night dungeon last night, had shadow refuge sig agility and smoke screen on my bar and equipped pp and sb, for mobs I used sb with all the blast finishers, aoe weakness bla bla and for bosses used pp… Now with bosses, my unloads hit very hard.. So the end result is high sustained dmg, without ever dying, and some nice team focussed utilities… How is that bad? Am I missing something? Note I’m a pvp player hence my inexperience in dungeons

A lot of people here don’t know how Shadow Refuge works.

The strength comes not from being stealthed yourself, but from stealthing (and healing) a downed ally.

When you are down, Ash kits do not work.

As for P/D perma-blinds… Really? People think Sword Autoattack+Black Powder is bad? It can deal about 8-9k dmg in one chain+weakness and cripple and PERMABLIND from Black Powder, and people still think it’s bad?

I really dont think the people posting have played warriors, as I was a disbeliever before I got mine to 80. I never really wanted one, but after I made it, other DPS looked like a joke. Id perfer to play a thief, I loved gw1, I was an assassin to the core, but it is what it is.
As for that 8-9k damage in one chain, in PVT gear thats about my end burst for 100blades, not to mention, the 8 or so hits before that doing up to the 9k end burst. So yes 9k damage is actually great, few classes can hit that number, but in the end, theres always another class that can do it better

JJBigs.8456:

I really dont think the people posting have played warriors, as I was a disbeliever before I got mine to 80. I never really wanted one, but after I made it, other DPS looked like a joke. Id perfer to play a thief, I loved gw1, I was an assassin to the core, but it is what it is.
As for that 8-9k damage in one chain, in PVT gear thats about my end burst for 100blades, not to mention, the 8 or so hits before that doing up to the 9k end burst. So yes 9k damage is actually great, few classes can hit that number, but in the end, theres always another class that can do it better

There is one flaw in 100b that other similiar attacks (Pistol Whip, Blurred Frenzy) don’t have, namely you’re vulnerable while using it.

to the OP: simple, you don’t bring a thief to dungeons
2xguards,1 warr, 1 ele and 1 mesmer …. all is in perfect harmony

Why bringing thief to dungeon? For Daily Healer achievement! (yea i know you can heal NPC)

JJBigs.8456:

I really dont think the people posting have played warriors…

Don’t need to play one because there are so many around, and have seen enough to know that I would sooner take a thief into a dungeon than a warrior, any day ..

You need a much higher player skill set to run a thief. I cannot imagine a bad or mediocre thief having much fun dying all the time and racking up repair costs. They would either re-spec and/or L2P, or go do something else. So, odds are a player regularly running dungeons with a thief is pretty kitten good. You can say the same about rangers as well, another misunderstood class.

On the other hand, warrior class seems to attract the speed-levelers who jump into dungeons without bothering to learn the class, let alone tactics. These are the same players with glass cannon builds, kitted out with MF and say “I can tank anything” then promptly get 1-shotted.

Not saying all warriors are like this, and I have played with some decent ones, however, I have seen a lot more warriors on dungeon floors than thieves, and a downed warrior contributes 0 DPS …

Sovta.4719:

Why bringing thief to dungeon? For Daily Healer achievement! (yea i know you can heal NPC)

That can be said about every unaware player playing glass cannon. The issue is that, for instance, most thieves play glass cannons giving them bad reputation (floor thieves) while most guardians play faceroll “tanks” with 2000 toughness rarely dying while being completely unaware of their surroundings.

bri.2359:

Not saying all warriors are like this, and I have played with some decent ones, however, I have seen a lot more warriors on dungeon floors than thieves, and a downed warrior contributes 0 DPS …

One of the rookie mistake. Downed players still do damage and downed glass cannon warrior/thief does more damage than alive tanky guardian.

haviz.1340:

Sovta.4719:

Why bringing thief to dungeon? For Daily Healer achievement! (yea i know you can heal NPC)

That can be said about every unaware player playing glass cannon.

This is true, but other thing for guardian its not. Guardian doesn’t need so much defence as long as he knows what to do. Good guardians bring 2 or more gears anyway, just see AH trait +
giving might to allies on EVERY critical.
I’m just saying in dungeons like Ascalon fractal, Shaman fractal and so on (20+) i would rather have bad guardian than ok thief.

Sovta.4719:

This is true, but other thing for guardian its not. Guardian doesn’t need so much defence as long as he knows what to do. Good guardians bring 2 or more gears anyway, just see AH trait +
giving might to allies on EVERY critical.
I’m just saying in dungeons like Ascalon fractal, Shaman fractal and so on (20+) i would rather have bad guardian than ok thief.

You don’t need so much defense because guardian has a lot of passive defense (passive virtues for instance) while thieves depend on active dodging and using skills with built-in dodge.

Next thing, I don’t run AH anymore (it’s too faceroll-ish), but when I did I knew that Empowering might had 1s ICD.

haviz.1340:

bri.2359:

Not saying all warriors are like this, and I have played with some decent ones, however, I have seen a lot more warriors on dungeon floors than thieves, and a downed warrior contributes 0 DPS …

One of the rookie mistake. Downed players still do damage and downed glass cannon warrior/thief does more damage than alive tanky guardian.

Then replace ‘downed’ with ‘dead’ …

As for a ‘rookie mistake’, been playing since game launch, mate ..

bri.2359:

Then replace ‘downed’ with ‘dead’ …

Then it’s completely different

As for a ‘rookie mistake’, been playing since game launch, mate ..

It’s a phrase, you know.

Well, you could bring a thief to dungeons, but there are better options (heavy gear – guardians, warriors).

JJBigs.8456:

I really dont think the people posting have played warriors, as I was a disbeliever before I got mine to 80. I never really wanted one, but after I made it, other DPS looked like a joke. Id perfer to play a thief, I loved gw1, I was an assassin to the core, but it is what it is.
As for that 8-9k damage in one chain, in PVT gear thats about my end burst for 100blades, not to mention, the 8 or so hits before that doing up to the 9k end burst. So yes 9k damage is actually great, few classes can hit that number, but in the end, theres always another class that can do it better

This right here. I was very excited by some of the crit numbers I could pull off my thief, the damage that looked significant. It took work, stealth, maneuver, burst…. but I could pile on some serious damage…. Then I finally finished leveling the warrior I had discarded because it felt slow and clunky compared to my thief…. and promptly started seeing damage numbers I’d never managed to achieve on my thief.

Unload feels godly, but it’s single target, vs things like 100b that are multi target. Down the boss hard, or down the boss and sweep up his adds at the same time?

One of the things that got me off my thief was the lack of access to 1200 range for encounters that required (or are easier with) ranged attacks. Pistols and SB bring you in close, and while CB has 1200 range, at that range, it is slower than snot due to the high arc.

In terms of ‘tankyness’, I will admit, I never run out of dodges on my thief, and I drop caltrops on every dodge, so I can hang in melee range for long, sustained periods without having to drop out, and it maintains bleeds + cripple. I feel like a bouncing betty some times, but the DPS is sustainable while hanging in melee range.

The more I look through the responses, it feels like the answer for thief really is centered around things like Black Powder, Headshot… using Smoke Screen as a means of applying blind….

Lots to think on. The class is viable without a doubt, and frankly anyone who’s got a thief with their face in the dirt all the time…. it’s not the fault of the class. The class has plenty of survivability, and SoM is godly.

Thanks so much everyone for the feedback, lots of food for thought.

Brennus.1435:

I really don’t have a problem with a competent thief at all.

This is the problem. I’m amazed at how many aren’t competent at all. I’ve had so many bad thieves in parties that we may as well just have 4 manned it. Now I won’t even take the chance with them.

Why bring X class to a dungeon? I’ll tell you why, cause I dont suck and could care less what class you are as long as you dont suck either.

I’m not going to sit there for 10 minutes looking for the perfect group composition.

Auesis.7301:

stof.9341:

- AoE Weakness up 100% of the time but I’m not sure it works that well on bosses anyway

This is pretty much THE defining benefit of having a Thief aside from Shadow Refuge. It definitely does work on bosses, because shooting through the poison field (weakness on poison) applies weakness at such a fast rate that the boss will never be able to shake it off.

Hmm, if only want to apply weakness on the boss, isn’t an engineer a better option?
See http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_gun
And http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tranquilizer_Dart
It has both weakness and bleed on its auto attack. You get 1200 range with rifled barrels trait.
The weakness actually lasts much longer time than the wiki page says. Easily 4 seconds. I can confirm that you can easily keep permanent weakness on a boss with it. In fact you can even swap weapons to e.g. grenade kit, rifle, pistols and then back fast back to elixir gun and still have the weakness applied on the boss if you have fast fingers. I use it to solo bosses alone.

Today I was soloing Southsun Cove. Yes, I know it is freaking empty void and has crappy drop. I just wanted to see if those big veteran karkas, which lay those tiny karkas all over, can be soloed. They can.
Funnily I saw a greatsword warrior + dual dagger thief there. They died.

I know engineers suck, but…

BACK to the main topic. I think thieves could be very viable in dungeon if played well. Even a glass cannon could be great assuming the player knows how to time his/her dodges and knows how and when to retreat from danger. Thief and mesmer have the best tools of disengangement in the game. They decide when they leave the combat. Shadow refuge is super useful group utility. And thieves can actually do comparable dps to warriors, just spec them differently.

Deniara / Ayna

there isnt any point and I think all thieves should be banned from doing dungeons.

Please make monthlies for thieves that dont include Dungeons as a part of above. 3 months in a row is ridiculous that forced dungeon runs or be left behind without ascend gear is enough.

JJBigs.8456:

As for that 8-9k damage in one chain, in PVT gear thats about my end burst for 100blades, not to mention, the 8 or so hits before that doing up to the 9k end burst.

Is 100blades your autoattack? Can you move while using it? AND weakness+cripple? Can your other weapon skills evade, daze, and permablind?

I find Hundred Blades to be a risky skill because it pins you in place and unlike other similar attacks, it has no evade or other helpful effects. It’s just DPS.

Also, what the heck is with all the Thief hate? One minute people call it overpowered, the next they say it’s worthless! I wish the community could make up their kitten minds whether the Thief is good or not because this thread is another case of schizophrenia in the community.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Hmm, if only want to apply weakness on the boss, isn’t an engineer a better option?
See http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_gun
And http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tranquilizer_Dart
It has both weakness and bleed on its auto attack. You get 1200 range with rifled barrels trait.
The weakness actually lasts much longer time than the wiki page says. Easily 4 seconds. I can confirm that you can easily keep permanent weakness on a boss with it. In fact you can even swap weapons to e.g. grenade kit, rifle, pistols and then back fast back to elixir gun and still have the weakness applied on the boss if you have fast fingers. I use it to solo bosses alone.

Oh sure, I wasn’t claiming that Thieves are the best at single-target weakness. They are the best, however, at multi-target weakness. That method I outlined above can weaken entire groups at a moment’s notice, as one poison field will pulse multiple times and auto-attacks through it are just icing on the cake. It’s not even taking away from ranged DPS, as it is pretty much instant cast and can fit in to a Cluster Bomb rotation with absolutely no problem.

D/D auto-attack also applies weakness with the same trait, so if the Thief knows how to play well, they can deal much higher DPS than at range while keeping up useful conditions, and they have sacrifice absolutely nothing to do so (the poison/weakness trait is in a power tree). The main concern is the player’s ability (the skill floor is a lot higher for Thieves to meet equal performance of other professions). I acknowledge that many people find this a problem, but the Thieves I’ve got to know and play with regularly are easily some of the most reliable players I’ve met due to this elevation in input requirement.

Auesis.7301:

Oh sure, I wasn’t claiming that Thieves are the best at single-target weakness. They are the best, however, at multi-target weakness. That method I outlined above can weaken entire groups at a moment’s notice, as one poison field will pulse multiple times and auto-attacks through it are just icing on the cake. It’s not even taking away from ranged DPS, as it is pretty much instant cast and can fit in to a Cluster Bomb rotation with absolutely no problem.

D/D auto-attack also applies weakness with the same trait, so if the Thief knows how to play well, they can deal much higher DPS than at range while keeping up useful conditions, and they have sacrifice absolutely nothing to do so (the poison/weakness trait is in a power tree). The main concern is the player’s ability (the skill floor is a lot higher for Thieves to meet equal performance of other professions). I acknowledge that many people find this a problem, but the Thieves I’ve got to know and play with regularly are easily some of the most reliable players I’ve met due to this elevation in input requirement.

Thief’s cluster bomb is amazing. I think it is the biggest damage spammable 1200 range AoE skill in the game.

I have all 8 professions. I would say engineer is the most difficult to play effectively due lack of damage, lots of quirks and just broken down implementation and design. Thief is among the easier to professions to play effectively in any game mode. I mean what is difficult about playing a thief?

I have been playing a lot of warrior lately, which is my other main besides engineer, simply to give rest to my hands. Warrior is the easy mode in pve, guardian and thief come close. Grenadier engineer with 2 other kits requires so much key and mouse button presses that it is crazy. In order to solo group events at Orr or be effective in WvWvW you need to be able to move, kite, dodge and do ground targeting at same time. Yet, thief can do more damage just pressing few buttons in similar repeated patterns. And if anything goes wrong just hit shadow refuge, hide in shadows or shadow step to safety and back again to remove 3 conditions. I wouldn’t call that difficult. I am sure my 4-year-old son could soon learn to play a thief if I would let him use computer instead of Nintendo.

Thief is Anet’s easy points for anybody profession in WvWvW or pvp. Mesmer comes 2nd. By they way both of those professions can also solo group events. Stealth + short range teleportation combined with high damage output is extremely powerful combination.

Deniara

Deniara Devious.3948:

Thief’s cluster bomb is amazing. I think it is the biggest damage spammable 1200 range AoE skill in the game.

I’ve always felt that it’s less spamable at long range due to the high arc, and using it as a blast finisher at long range is difficult for the same reason. Takes forever for the CB to get where it’s going. At close range, CB is very spamable, but at the range limit…. not so much.

I think Warrior Long Bow > Thief Short Bow for long range encounters, because only CB has 1200 range, while the entire warrior longbow (if traited) becomes a 1200 range weapon.

don’t get me wrong, thief SB is mobility and damage and conditions all in one potent tool kit, but for times when you need 1200 range, it lacks a bit.

Granted, a thief may not be particularly useful in explorable mode dungeons or low level fractals (these are typically not the toughest of encounters anyway, so group compilation shouldn’t be a major concern). However, having a thief becomes very useful in high level fractals due to the following:

- Scorpion wire. This enables the thief to perform single target pulls on a regular basis and is particularly useful in the Ascalon, Dredge and Cliffside fractals (+60). AOE is typically the preferred option, however, when you breach the 60s mark the monsters hit VERY hard and it is advantageous to be able to extract veteran mobs (say in a group of dredge) before pulling the remaining group of normals for AOE attacks.

- Smoke screen. We typically chain this: Wall of reflection > Smoke screen > Feedback > repeat.

- Stealth for a variety of incremental benefits at higher level. E.g. mass stealth for door bombing, console stealth, stealth res.

- Various evade skills for dodging agony and other big hitting attacks (a good thief will typically avoid all agony attacks in the lava or dredge fractal using shortbow evade skill + dodges).

If ANET release more dungeons where careful single target mob pulls is useful, a thief will become a very valuable addition to the group.

Leo.2850:

If ANET release more dungeons where careful single target mob pulls is useful, a thief will become a very valuable addition to the group.

Good to know that scorpion wire works in high level fractals. I gave up on it when I tried to do this sort of thing to break key mobs out of groups in CM and saw ‘immune’ to every pulling skill the group had (tried the necro pull too, got the same result, and I think someone else had one, but i can’t remember what…. don’t think it was guardian GS#5, but I can’t think of what else it might have been.)

I had come to the conclusion that A-net was forcing those packs to be dealt with as packs.

no. i don’t see a point in taking a thief for dungeon runs other than a fill in to an empty slot..
don’t think ill ever pick a thief over a warrior for dungeons.
most of the attacks are avoidable, yes, but not all of em are.
(those multiple homing projectiles) in this case, thiefs will go down much faster than a warrior when hit.
while they both dish good mele dmg, warrior share boons to the whole group, and have the benefit to stay at mele range longer due to its high health and defense pool.
while weakness can be applied from thief, but a axe/mace warrior can also apply weakness + vulnerability + self sustained might and fury! bring 2 of em and you can have sustained weakness without having to bring thiefs..
bring more with a shout + heals and elite banners, than you practically have a res on a button and can heal constantly + give 5 stacks of might to the whole group during the whole duration!
they gives much more group benefit than a thief ever will..
you could say that a skilled thief can stay alive forever, dodging everything that comes around, but an equally skilled player of any class could do the same, while giving more support to the group as whole
PS: a mesmer can do the stealth part to help skip mobs as good as a thief can. and do more pluses to the group with their utility,

Folk.2093:

Why bring X class to a dungeon? I’ll tell you why, cause I dont suck and could care less what class you are as long as you dont suck either.

I’m not going to sit there for 10 minutes looking for the perfect group composition.

This ^. Generally people don’t care what class you bring if they are regulars and are skilled and experienced in dungeon. Having said that, if given a choice between two equally skilled players, one playing thief and the other any other class, i think i’ll go for anyone but thief. Really.

Auesis.7301:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Hmm, if only want to apply weakness on the boss, isn’t an engineer a better option?
See http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_gun
And http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tranquilizer_Dart
It has both weakness and bleed on its auto attack. You get 1200 range with rifled barrels trait.
The weakness actually lasts much longer time than the wiki page says. Easily 4 seconds. I can confirm that you can easily keep permanent weakness on a boss with it. In fact you can even swap weapons to e.g. grenade kit, rifle, pistols and then back fast back to elixir gun and still have the weakness applied on the boss if you have fast fingers. I use it to solo bosses alone.

Oh sure, I wasn’t claiming that Thieves are the best at single-target weakness. They are the best, however, at multi-target weakness. That method I outlined above can weaken entire groups at a moment’s notice, as one poison field will pulse multiple times and auto-attacks through it are just icing on the cake. It’s not even taking away from ranged DPS, as it is pretty much instant cast and can fit in to a Cluster Bomb rotation with absolutely no problem.

D/D auto-attack also applies weakness with the same trait, so if the Thief knows how to play well, they can deal much higher DPS than at range while keeping up useful conditions, and they have sacrifice absolutely nothing to do so (the poison/weakness trait is in a power tree). The main concern is the player’s ability (the skill floor is a lot higher for Thieves to meet equal performance of other professions). I acknowledge that many people find this a problem, but the Thieves I’ve got to know and play with regularly are easily some of the most reliable players I’ve met due to this elevation in input requirement.

Thing with applying weakness is, while great and all, the bigger question is WHY bother with something so trivial as applying weakness to stuffs other than the boss, cause if you bring in another class such as a warrior the trashes are cleared with ease anyway?

I like having a thief in group that uses pistol #5 against trash in fractals.

Ouh. Form a 5 warriors group and you win?

My party love my thief especially for stealth-rezzing. With recent additions to rezzing system when you are not able to resurrect when fight is on, this ability feels very overpowered.
As for thief I also could kite out far-far away 1-2-3 mobs when one is still rezzing others.

Have S/P and have no problems in dungeons. Basically could fast solo normal or veteran mob or disable him for a moments while my party kill another target. I like to shut off necromancer or ranger for example —> they couldn’t do almost any damage.
My target rarely could even make a step out of my control.

In my opinion warriors are good but in my expereince I’m just a babbysitter for that warriors cos they are dying too much if compared to me.
I have almost all toons 80 or near it and my thief most enjoyable one. Never have problems to form party as thief.

I have an 80 Thief and 80 Guardian (just started leveling a Mesmer).

Dungeon wise, there’s nothing special that Thief’s bring. Yeah, we got Shadow Refuge, but it’s only useful for saving a downed person (which an Ash legion key can do). We’re just straight up DPS — which isn’t a bad thing because we can do a lot. We don’t have much in terms of group buffs or anything.

My 80 Guardian on the other hand has HUGE group support. In FOTM if there’s 2-3 Guardian’s in the group we can trivialize many of the fights or make them significantly easier!!

Basically, in instances, thieves are kings of trash mitigation and burning defiance. A lot of dungeons have extremely easy trash, so you don’t need the thief as you can just burn down all of it before it can do anything remotely approaching dangerous. When you ramp up to harder content, you quickly learn to love the guy that can perma-blind, perma-cripple, and perma-weakness endless fields of trash while packing the single best ressing skill in the game. When you’re staring down bosses, a single thief playing extremely well can fizzle every 1HKO the thing throws at you.

Big damage thieves aren’t as useful in instances as big damage warriors, but supportive thieves in instances tend to actually make things easier when paired with a guardian than just getting another guardian.

just to balance out the anti-thief sentiment in this thread: in my guardian, i was once in a group with 2 thieves, a mesmer and one other person i can’t remember (probably ele or warrior). it was one of the faster runs i did on fractals 10.

sure, people went down every now and again (and i’ve got a level 4 thief, so i’m not terribly familiar with the class yet), but i think as long as thieves stay away from glass-cannon builds and play smart, they can be viable and give a lot of damage mitigation (avoidance?) and conditions in dungeons.

noobs can unfortunately come in any profession, so i think pve thief hate is not justified.

I didn’t read the whole thread, mostly the top half of the first page, but here’s my answer: Because its fun.

Sometimes I don’t like being a ranged clone factory, so I play Guardian because it’s fun, not because it’s more effective. I say having fun is leagues more important than looking at what you lack.

abelooi.9156:

Thing with applying weakness is, while great and all, the bigger question is WHY bother with something so trivial as applying weakness to stuffs other than the boss, cause if you bring in another class such as a warrior the trashes are cleared with ease anyway?

Because incoming damage is reduced by a hilarious amount in doing so and it’s a much bigger net gain than bringing a brute obsessed with big numbers who thinks he’s a brick wall and falling on his kitten every 10 seconds.

Pardon me if I’m stereotyping, but there’s pretty decent ground for me to do so, because I’ve found my Thief to be a babysitter for all kinds of classes, Warrior being the most common.

warrior hits harder

Then you suck with your thief…

Xaaz.8472:

There’s no reason to have a thief at all. Every class can do something they can but better, except stealth. Not really a big need for that in any dungeon. Thief = WvW, sorry but that’s all they shine at.

I suggest you read a bit more. It’s clear from this that you have no clue about the thief class whatsoever.

Actually I think its the player more than the class that is more important.

If there is a profession that I really dislike it has to be the ranger. Name me one thing that ranger brings to the table that other professions do not in PVE (water fields can be provided via healing pods). More importantly pets CANNOT be desummoned, aggroes when u dont want it to. I dont play PVP at all but I seriously doubt its popular there. In WvW ranger becomes slightly more useful but other professions are even better eg the much maligned necromancers and engineers.

The reason why rangers doesnt get so much flak is because bad / inexperienced players can get away with playing a ranged character.

PS: Edited because I tot OP said mesmer brought less utility than a thief.

A couple of thieves can stun lock many of the mini-bosses so they never get a hit off.

Personally my group benefits from my shortbow ability (hits 1 target and bounces to others), scorpion wire which is great for separating mobs, smokebomb which will help drop aggro on a player real quick. thieves guild for extra DPS and aggro, whirling blades for large spawn of NPC’s. Theres too much to list. Gotta run more than one dungeon to see the endless amounts of possibilities.