Guild Wars 2

Currently agony punishes people with high vitality, since agony takes a percentage of health. This makes you take more damage per tick and thus makes your healing skills less effective in return.
Same could be said about toughness, does nothing and would be better off getting more damage stats so the boss dies faster and has less time to use agony.
I am a max vitality guardian and I take almost twice the damage from agony as a full berserker guardian, that doesnt seem right or fair.

It’s a fail concept anyway. It doesn’t belong in a game that is supposed to be about player skill.

You do take twice the damage as the guardian due to your lack of Agony Resistance.

Every 5 points makes a HUGE difference. The guardian you speak of is running 5 more agony resistance than you.

Plus, you end up being the better guardian unless you fail at all your rolls and he ends up tanking in berserkers.

I made a Jade Maw gear set for the higher difficulties of Jade Maw. I still haven’t been blessed with an infused ring, so instead I made a gear set that has full healing power and no vitality. It’s the only way I can survive taking 250% of my hp over 8 seconds.

What difficulty are you on, Rabbit?

30+

More characters.

Yeah, I was thinking between either full squishy or healing on my secondary armor set, but I haven’t gotten around to it. Maybe I should go healing so I can save my teammates as well if I get them to group on me. (Mantra heal build, lul)

I usually run a kinda support (shouts) build with full cleric gear anyway, but I have to say cleric gear is pretty good vs agony. On something like a jade maw transition you just immediately hit virtue of resolve and other heals as needed and, hopefully, keep one or two people up through the agony ticks.

+Healing isn’t always the greatest stat, but against the dubious mechanic of agony it’s better than most. I recommend it.

I’m so happy to be a Warrior with naturally high health.

Esplen.3940:

You do take twice the damage as the guardian due to your lack of Agony Resistance.

Every 5 points makes a HUGE difference. The guardian you speak of is running 5 more agony resistance than you.

Plus, you end up being the better guardian unless you fail at all your rolls and he ends up tanking in berserkers.

Nope, I got almost 22k health on my guardian, where as a full beserker guardian has about 13k.

It’s a percentage of your total health, no? So X% is X% it’s hurting your equally resistant friend the same regardless of your max HP. So although your numbers may be higher, it still effects the both of you equally with regard to your survivability.

I fail to see the issue.

SteepledHat.1345:

It’s a percentage of your total health, no? So X% is X% it’s hurting your equally resistant friend the same regardless of your max HP. So although your numbers may be higher, it still effects the both of you equally with regard to your survivability.

I fail to see the issue.

Let’s say agony does 33% of your max hp as dmg per tick.
If you have 22k hp, you get hit by 7.26k a tick.
If you have 13k hp, you get hit by 4.29k a tick.

Your healing power works seperately from your vitality/hp.

If you still can’t see why having high hp is harmul, you’re beyond hope.

Assuming no other damage source than agony, they’re both equally likely to die. But the issue is healing back up again afterwards. If one guy has 22k max HP and is reduced to 10%, he has nearly 20k HP he has to heal back up again. The other guy with 13k max HP only has to heal less than 12k HP to be full.

Aldred.9345:

Assuming no other damage source than agony, they’re both equally likely to die. But the issue is healing back up again afterwards. If one guy has 22k max HP and is reduced to 10%, he has nearly 20k HP he has to heal back up again. The other guy with 13k max HP only has to heal less than 12k HP to be full.

the difference between taking 8k dmg a second as opposed to 4k, is that you can outheal the 4k dmg a second.

How is this so hard to understand?

And healing power scales like crap. Even a full set of healing power equipment wont even make up the double agony damage in any way.

i understand what unanimous is saying. lol its not a hard concept….the more hp u have the more damage u have, independent of how much you can actually heal. so vitality builds will take way more dmg than non vitality, so much so that they cant possibly heal their hp enough to survive another burst of agony.

Unanimous.1486:

Aldred.9345:

Assuming no other damage source than agony, they’re both equally likely to die. But the issue is healing back up again afterwards. If one guy has 22k max HP and is reduced to 10%, he has nearly 20k HP he has to heal back up again. The other guy with 13k max HP only has to heal less than 12k HP to be full.

the difference between taking 8k dmg a second as opposed to 4k, is that you can outheal the 4k dmg a second.

How is this so hard to understand?

I… don’t know? I’m not the one that has trouble with it – I was trying to explain to the poster above you. Hence my post about healing and how max HP affects how much you have to heal.

Sounds like some folks here never played the 55hp Monk… when your health is lower % damage to health pool can be mitigated better by heals.

Stamen.9240:

Sounds like some folks here never played the 55hp Monk… when your health is lower % damage to health pool can be mitigated better by heals.

Having more health should never be a disadvantage.

Malediktus.9250:

Stamen.9240:

Sounds like some folks here never played the 55hp Monk… when your health is lower % damage to health pool can be mitigated better by heals.

Having more health should never be a disadvantage.

Tell that to the gw2 game designers.

Out of curiosity, what do you guys propose as an alternative?

I’m sure the immediate reaction is to have agony do a static amount of damage, but the problem with that is it disproportionately harms those with low HP. If you set the damage too high, anyone with a low health pool is virtually guaranteed to die. If you set the damage too low, anyone with a high health pool can mostly ignore the mechanic. This would be less of an issue if there wasn’t such a huge disparity in base health pools, but we have what we have.

As a designer I would have created a different system.

The boss in question could have a library of 30 abilities.
Some would be offensive and some defensive.

difficulty 1-9 = boss has 1 ability
difficulty 10-19 = boss has 2 abilities
difficulty 20-29 = boss has 3 abilities
difficulty 30-39 = boss has 4 abilities

As the difficulty scales from 1 through 9, NPC health and damage is increased.

I don’t understand how the agony mechanic makes it challenging. Please help me understand this. An unavoidable attack that kills me because I don’t have the gear to resist it. This has nothing to do with skill. Absolutely nothing.

ATMAvatar.5749:

Out of curiosity, what do you guys propose as an alternative?

I’m sure the immediate reaction is to have agony do a static amount of damage, but the problem with that is it disproportionately harms those with low HP.

And what is wrong with that? As opposite as harming those with high HP? Everywhere else, if you got hit with 5k damage and have only 4k life you are dead. And the one with 20k life would just laugh and heal himself.

Vitality builds suck anyways. Berserker or GG

for the same reason that condition damage punishes toughness builds i suppose…

BadHealer.3608:

ATMAvatar.5749:

Out of curiosity, what do you guys propose as an alternative?

I’m sure the immediate reaction is to have agony do a static amount of damage, but the problem with that is it disproportionately harms those with low HP.

And what is wrong with that? As opposite as harming those with high HP? Everywhere else, if you got hit with 5k damage and have only 4k life you are dead. And the one with 20k life would just laugh and heal himself.

But you do realize that different professions got different amount of base hp? Why should professions with low base hp be punished for something they can’t even change.

Milennin.4825:

It’s a fail concept anyway. It doesn’t belong in a game that is supposed to be about player skill.

if you have skill you don’t need agony resistance and you won’t get it. soo actually agony resistance and the concept of agony actually punishes those who don’t have the skill because they need the resistance to go on

Despite that is not true…because some attacks rotation are skill proof…(they kills you no matter what forcing you into triple dodge you don t have).

cool but if you have AR, agony becomes laughable..

So Equip >>>>> Skill again…

By a player that facetank bosses with due to high AR (cannot do the same in normal dungeons <.<).

Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the healing signet healing with % too? When I used to roll as vitality guardi it did heal me for around 70. Now that I’m all knighty it gives me the same heal rate (think)

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

Milennin.4825:

It’s a fail concept anyway. It doesn’t belong in a game that is supposed to be about player skill.

if you have skill you don’t need agony resistance and you won’t get it. soo actually agony resistance and the concept of agony actually punishes those who don’t have the skill because they need the resistance to go on

Yes, you will still need it, unless you’re a robot that never (NEVER) makes any mistakes. A human player will not dodge 100% of all agony attacks thrown at him. So good luck with with your 0 resistance at higher Fractals. Also Jade Maw would like to speak with you.

Conclusion: Bad player with enough resistance can just go kitten around and not die.
Skilled player will still be heavily damaged / die due to lack of resistance at high Fractals.

don t forget dredge….
He can throw his agony attack followed by bombs
Can you roll 3 or 4 times in a row? no? dead.

ATMAvatar.5749:

Out of curiosity, what do you guys propose as an alternative?

I’m sure the immediate reaction is to have agony do a static amount of damage, but the problem with that is it disproportionately harms those with low HP. If you set the damage too high, anyone with a low health pool is virtually guaranteed to die. If you set the damage too low, anyone with a high health pool can mostly ignore the mechanic. This would be less of an issue if there wasn’t such a huge disparity in base health pools, but we have what we have.

They should make it first that the level 80 player health pool in exotics doesn’t range from 10k to 30k depending on class and gear.

The GW1 way with everyone at the exact same max HP except for armor runes which didn’t add that much in total was the best.

If you have low base stats then your survivability probably comes from something else.
Maybe I’m missing something but when I get hit by agony on my Warrior I’m pretty much forced to get out-of-combat regen. Where as some classes seem to heal through it just fine.

For skill, how do you evade the legendary imbued shaman? That’s the hardest one in all of Fractals to me. As a shout warrior build with knights armor, I’m all kinds of squishy that I do not like at all. Needing pretty much a complete retooling of my build to advance any further.

I see it as, Squishy + Gear Grind = Gold Sink.
More money for Anet makes them happy.

Unanimous.1486:

the difference between taking 8k dmg a second as opposed to 4k, is that you can outheal the 4k dmg a second.

How is this so hard to understand?

Every opinion is equally valuable in the eyes of the clueless who thus cannot refrain to comment on issues revolving around numbers despite their complete lack of mathematical understanding.

Agony punishes groups who fail to avoid it.
I’m not saying this in a sarcastic way, but I think the main goal of every group after level 20 should be to work on a strategy to avoid agony.

Agony works like everything else in the game, avoid it and you don’t even need that resist and unlike some other attacks, agony attacks are very predictable and avoidable.

Most of the time, I forget to equip my rings and it doesn’t make a difference until Jade Maw which is the only exception.

A group strategy can be a heavy use of reflecting or negating skills, or that guardian tome to heal everyone (works wonder on maw), or the simple “pay attention and dogdge when the boss faces you”.
Anything that negates the attack that agony is linked to completely negates the agony.

I understand it affects people with high hp more as they have more to heal afterward before the next agony attack hits but even then I don’t see it as something you have to take in the first place. Except for Jade Maw, there’s no unavoidable attack/agony in Fractals.

There’s a sweet spot for the amount of HP a guardian has. 22k isn’t it. At some point more HP is pointless if you can’t heal back to full health.

KyleQuest.4639:

For skill, how do you evade the legendary imbued shaman? That’s the hardest one in all of Fractals to me.

Stay at his back/sides as much as possible. When he is getting ready to hit you with his agony attack, he’ll turn to face you. If you’re fighting him from range, you also get the visual cue of a purple streak headed towards you – it’s a reasonably slow projectile.

Agony is not adding anything meaningful to the gameplay, other than added pressure to dodge certain attacks. For which you do not need agony, more damage would have sufficed. At the same time, the resistance makes Agony sort of pointless, or at least defers the issues to higher fractals.

The Harpies getting a skill to push you off the platforms is pretty much the same concept, minus all the community whining. Why? Because it is better integrated into the fight and does not appear as bolted on as agony does.

chaos.3098:

There’s a sweet spot for the amount of HP a guardian has. 22k isn’t it. At some point more HP is pointless if you can’t heal back to full health.

It just fine for normal pve, just agony pushishes it horrible. Especially when I want to play with 0 agony resist at factals difficulty 20-30+. Not even dieing much with 0, but at jade maw is unavoidable (stupid idea from anet), because its undodgeable and auto applies again if you run back from waypoint. What a great mechanic!

Personally I think a reasonable flat amount against all classes would be the best.

Bad players usually get berserker gear and not stuff like ptv armor. Changing agony to flat damage would cause more complains than now. Smart players that go for Vitality and Toughness knowing that they get hit/want to play tank or smart berserker geared people will continue to be smart and deal with the percentual damage caused by agony.

JackSlate.8450:

Bad players usually get berserker gear and not stuff like ptv armor. Changing agony to flat damage would cause more complains than now. Smart players that go for Vitality and Toughness knowing that they get hit/want to play tank or smart berserker geared people will continue to be smart and deal with the percentual damage caused by agony.

Good players avoid damage, bad players destroy their DPS to absorb the damage.

stof.9341:

JackSlate.8450:

Bad players usually get berserker gear and not stuff like ptv armor. Changing agony to flat damage would cause more complains than now. Smart players that go for Vitality and Toughness knowing that they get hit/want to play tank or smart berserker geared people will continue to be smart and deal with the percentual damage caused by agony.

Good players avoid damage, bad players destroy their DPS to absorb the damage.

I want to disagree with this so much, but this statement is actually true.

The Jade Maws Agony can not be dodged, and it is the one that punishes Vitality builds more then any other since it lasts the longest and thus does the most damage. That is not a matter of skill, that is a matter of healing through it, and Vitality builds have an extremely rough time doing that.

Aside from that, the other tough one to avoid is the Legendary Imbued Shaman, who’s Agony attack is the fire bolt that puts the pulsing aoe on you, which can’t be dodged with the usual strafing back and forth method due to it’s rapid speed to its target, thus relying solely on your ability to evade dodge it and again, it moves extremely fast and evade dodging that is rough.

Regardless, Agony severely punishes high Vitality builds who simply don’t have the ability to heal through the damage.

Aldred.9345:

Assuming no other damage source than agony, they’re both equally likely to die. But the issue is healing back up again afterwards. If one guy has 22k max HP and is reduced to 10%, he has nearly 20k HP he has to heal back up again. The other guy with 13k max HP only has to heal less than 12k HP to be full.

Lol, how are you not getting this.

If person A has 20k HP and is taking 1000 damage/second
If person B has 10k HP and is taking 500 damage/second

And both heal 500 hp/second, what’s going to happen?

Ahlen.7591:

Aldred.9345:

Assuming no other damage source than agony, they’re both equally likely to die. But the issue is healing back up again afterwards. If one guy has 22k max HP and is reduced to 10%, he has nearly 20k HP he has to heal back up again. The other guy with 13k max HP only has to heal less than 12k HP to be full.

Lol, how are you not getting this.

If person A has 20k HP and is taking 1000 damage/second
If person B has 10k HP and is taking 500 damage/second

And both heal 500 hp/second, what’s going to happen?

The same way your not getting this

Person A has 24k HP and loses 70% health – 7.2k HP
Person B has 12k HP and loses 70% health – 3.6k HP

Both players can burst heal for 6k (more vitality does not mean more healing)

Person A now has 13.2k HP
Person B now has 9.6k HP

If both players are again hit for 70% of their max health, not their current, who lives? (Hint: Not the one with higher health)

An official answer about why the chose this kind of agony implementation is here. I can understand why there is agony, but why percentage base and why have undodgeable agony encounters.

Malediktus.9250:

An official answer about why the chose this kind of agony implementation is here. I can understand why there is agony, but why percentage base and why have undodgeable agony encounters.

If it wasn’t percentage based, it would destroy 10k HP players while barely registering for 30k HP players. Thus making it the opposite that happens right now : making it far easier for high HP high vitality builds to resist.

The undodgeable agony encounters are here because without them, infusion items wouldn’t be a barrier at all since they’d all be optional.

Yep, Jade Maw is a gating mechanism.

Fun fact: Jade Maw 50 hits for 1172% of your health every second.