Guild Wars 2

CuRtoKy.8576:

Star Ace.5207:

While I do not hate Berserker’s gear, I bet that you have no evidence that 100% of players that use Soldier’s for whatever reason do not know how to dodge or just want to “mindlessly facetank.” Insulting generalizations like these not only don’t help your case, but perpetuate the irrational hate on both sides of the coin.

Just play, don’t hate.

First off in what statement did I say that people who run PTV don’t know how to dodge. I’m stating that people who want/use PTV tend to equate Toughness and Vitality as survivability while disregarding things like a well timed Aegis or dodge as survivability. In fact if you read the forums you will see that people complain about dodging and that Anet should design dungeon bosses that require passive defensive stats instead of being able to dodge everything to survive. On top of that I am not even making a generalization in my post. I stated “some people” not “everyone” which would have been a generalization. I referred to the person who made the argument that zerker doesn’t require survivability which I disagree since they use active defenses a lot rather than passive defenses which is the only thing this person equates with survivability.

As for evidence there is no such thing as 100% evidence since it is impossible for me to play with everyone that plays gw2 at least once across both NA and EU. What I can say is that based on my PuG experiences for dungeons I am not impressed by the level of skill over a time period of 6 months. I can say with confidence that when I get a thief, ranger, engi that 90% of them don’t play well at all. And my pug is open to any profession. Further, a lot of Eles and Guardians I encounter run odd utilities or builds that doesn’t fit the situation they would encounter in a dungeon. I seen my fair share of people not dodging running tanky stats. I run full PTV in WvW at one point and I find that it is pretty mindless there. Since I could care less about positioning and where the damage was at on the field since I could tank with my group and quickly heal up to sustain. Whereas on a more damage tanky spec I had to pay attention to AoEs and my positioning. For dungeons it is more scripted so to me it is mindless. Based on the arah p2 vid posted above really doesn’t require that much effort to run tanky using no dodge and not dying.

Cases have already been made for many months and nothing changed. Do I hate people who play PTV or PTH. No, I just think they are contributing absolutely nothing to the team. So iono how it incites other people to hate other people. I mean no where do I give methods or strategies to deal with these people in negative ways on the LFG tool or when they are in a party. In fact nobody knows what a player’s build, traits, utilities are until they are in a group anyways and by that time people already have preconceived thoughts about PTV and such already.

Beyond that if say someone with PTV can dodge as well as another person with zerk then why run PTV? This is the question that comes to mind all the time. The only thing I can think of are two things: The person can’t dodge everyone well so they run PTV. Then again they should be moving towards zerk as they learn but most don’t (knights + zerk for example). Or the person is greedy and doesn’t want to contribute since they know the build is subpar and they refuse to change or modify it to make it better. Based on my experiences when I tell PuGs to say change one utility or just to next run for them to time the reflect a little better I get cursed out or called whiny kitten among other things.

Just play is fine but not when you get pugs like these. Now before you say make your own lfg I will say this: people don’t read what you write. And if people gear check they are called elitists on these forums.

I knew all your arguments before you said them. Your post IS why people hate Berserker’s gear users. You give them a bad name. No reason to get this angry over people playing whatever, much less attack them and make irrational “90% are bad” generalizations.

They are “greedy”, “selfish”, etc., if they don’t play your way. :P How more insulting can you get? You hate THEM, seeing them as “lowly”, as much as they supposedly hate you.

Hate the jerk, not the zerk.

(You do know that sometimes speedrunners ALSO join casual runs and complain, right? Unless they take for granted that every run is a speedrun, which isn’t true. Perhaps players know how to read more than what you are giving them credit for. Perhaps they made a mistake, or just want to annoy.)

I dont believe you actually read his post Star Ace. I consistantly see you attacking meta players and accusing them of being toxic and rude when in actual fact they arent. They are expressing a valid opinion and their frustration due to players not reading their lfg posts.

I can only assume you have a have a serious vendetta against all meta players and use any slightly emotional post as a tool in which you can attack them and make it clear how much you hate these “elitist jerks”. Really it just makes you look like intolerant and ignorant. Because the toxicity goes both ways and ive seen far more non meta players being abusive, toxic and intolerant than I have meta players doing the same.

I don’t know Spoj. I find the last post of Star Ace pretty reasonable. He don’t accuse any of the two sides. There is hate (for a lot of reason) on both sides.

Some Zerker call the other selfish, bad, lazy, L2P, etc. Other will kick rangers only because they are rangers(there is good ranger with good DPS). Not every zerker will make a post asking for zerker, some will just ask for a path and then talk kitten to the non zerker guys that join. Some are ‘’elitist jerks’‘. Some don’t really even know what they are doing and if they wipe it can only be because someone is not zerker, because i no way i can be wrong if i run zerker.

Don’t get me wrong. I run full zerker on all my character in dungeon. But there is hate on both side, because there is jerks on both sides (I hope not too much), there is troll on both sides and there is misinformed people on both sides.

Zerker or not, they are both two good choice for whatever reason. One is better if you have the skill to back it up and that is something you want, the other is better if you are new, don’t really give a crap or just want to relax and enjoy the game with friends.

Spoj The Second.7680:

I dont believe you actually read his post Star Ace. I consistantly see you attacking meta players and accusing them of being toxic and rude when in actual fact they arent. They are expressing a valid opinion and their frustration due to players not reading their lfg posts.

I can only assume you have a have a serious vendetta against all meta players and use any slightly emotional post as a tool in which you can attack them and make it clear how much you hate these “elitist jerks”. Really it just makes you look like intolerant and ignorant. Because the toxicity goes both ways and ive seen far more non meta players being abusive, toxic and intolerant than I have meta players doing the same.

I assume you don’t know me, but I oppose intolerance. No matter where it comes from. Mocking, being sarcastic against people that do not go meta IS the reason why the mutual hate persists. Read all my posts and see where I have ever favored the " all zerks do is eat dirt" comments. They are as silly as his hateful rant above. And if you don’t see his hate for others, you may have been used to the forum norm by now. I hate hate on both sides-immature and childish.

It’s actually offensive that you deem me “toxic” for this community, actually. I am “toxic” towards close-mindedness and insulting others.

Meta players have all the right in the world to play how they want. Just not be an arrogant, mocking jerk towards others. I know plenty of nice people who speedrun. You don’t have to be a jerk to others to be “elite”, ever. It’s rather obvious to me how offensive gear gives better results for PvE in this game, but that doesn’t mean that other players are selfish, idiots, baddies for playing with whatever-it IS insulting when they are called names for not playing meta builds, and there’s no hate that is justified or rational, save that against hate itself.

If you think it’s OK to mock others for not doing things your way, be my guest, but that’s where true toxicity lies. Blaming such toxicity on me is preposterous, especially since I don’t mind about the way others choose to play, nor criticize them for anything, “zerk” or otherwise.

If his post would not have been offensive, I wouldn’t have replied to it. It’s no anti-meta crusade, but more a call to respect others, people that you know nothing about, even when they choose to play GW2 in a different manner than you do. Which doesn’t mean you have to accept them in your groups, but calling them names, mocking them, judging their skill without knowing one bit about the way they play is not only irrational but wrong.

Spoj The Second.7680:

I dont believe you actually read his post Star Ace. I consistantly see you attacking meta players and accusing them of being toxic and rude when in actual fact they arent. They are expressing a valid opinion and their frustration due to players not reading their lfg posts.

I can only assume you have a have a serious vendetta against all meta players and use any slightly emotional post as a tool in which you can attack them and make it clear how much you hate these “elitist jerks”. Really it just makes you look like intolerant and ignorant. Because the toxicity goes both ways and ive seen far more non meta players being abusive, toxic and intolerant than I have meta players doing the same.

I think he was reacting to his opinion of players who are skilled enough to run zerk and meta builds but don’t. The second last paragraph.

I don’t know about other non-meta players, but when I do dungeons, I do put in all the effort I can for the run with whatever I bring to the run. I imagine many other players have this mentality of doing their best to contribute in their own way, and if that’s the case, I think it’s only natural that they get offended when despite their best effort, someone tells them they’re being lazy and slowing the team down.
In short, no one who honestly tries, likes to be told that they’re being a burden. (Go figure)

If this negative view of non-meta players didn’t exist, I imagine Zerker-hate wouldn’t exist.

If non-meta runners just accepted that they don’t care about efficiency then all would be fine.

But instead, we get people telling that we don’t know what we are talking about and their build is also efficient, just in a different way. Or how they carry everyone and res noob zerkers. Or how their build is really good.

Also if people respected party descriptions… But no, instead we get people telling how we are evil and toxic because we want to play our own way. Oh, and how evil we are when we try to force our way on everyone else. Yeah right…

Im well aware Star Ace’s posts look reasonable. Ive seen his replies a number of times now. Its just cleverly disguised.

You might claim to be against intolerance but you seem to be very biased. Sometimes your posts really irritate me because you call someone out for being rude when they really werent just so you can have another go. Atleast thats what it seems like. And its always a meta or zerk player.

No offense to you. But you genuinely come off as very biased and anti meta in my eyes simply because of who you consistantly respond to and how you mention something which is completely reasonable but it implies they do the opposite (this is rude whether you intend it to be or not).

Example:

If you think it’s OK to mock others for not doing things your way, be my guest, but that’s where true toxicity lies.

This sentence implies that you are accusing me of thinking its ok. I know thats not what you meant to do, but it seems that way and it was an unnecessary sentence to begin with. Your posts often include these implications.

Wethospu.6437:

Also if people respected party descriptions… But no, instead we get people telling how we are evil and toxic because we want to play our own way. Oh, and how evil we are when we try to force our way on everyone else. Yeah right…

This man speaks the truth.

My LFG ads for speedruns go as it follows:

Speedrun|ºZerk gearº|ººXPºº|Know your stuff|<Observation>|P<number>|

By <observation> I mean any extra requirement, such as “Melee Lupi” and other variables.
P<number> is, obviously, the path I’m willing to run.

This way they must have had to read the ad and hover their cursor over it to know what path that ad is for, but what do I get? PVT Warriors, Cleric’s Guardians, Condi Necros/Engis.
These days I am forced to add “Ping gear” to that already long list just to be sure, which doesn’t always really help.

Is reading seriously that hard?

Edit: Inb4 my groups get flooded with PVT anti-elitists.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Wethospu.6437:

Also if people respected party descriptions… But no, instead we get people telling how we are evil and toxic because we want to play our own way. Oh, and how evil we are when we try to force our way on everyone else. Yeah right…

This man speaks the truth.

My LFG ads for speedruns go as it follows:

Speedrun|ºZerk gearº|ººXPºº|Know your stuff|<Observation>|P<number>|

By <observation> I mean any extra requirement, such as “Melee Lupi” and other variables.
P<number> is, obviously, the path I’m willing to run.

This way they must have had to read the ad and hover their cursor over it to know what path that ad is for, but what do I get? PVT Warriors, Cleric’s Guardians, Condi Necros/Engis.
These days I am forced to add “Ping gear” to that already long list just to be sure, which doesn’t always really help.

Is reading seriously that hard?

I think some people think gear doesn’t matter much. They don’t realize how much their builds are hurting the party mostly because of the misinformation going on. People making “ultimate paladin build” with wrong information.

I try to not hate because not everyone has access to the right information, I try to teach them but if they don’t want to listen I just don’t bother. For some people it’s hard to get away from the Trinity they had been using for 10 years +.

One thing that would help a lot would be a class related tutorial, that would be a requirement.

I pick guardian, the tutorial ask me things like " Archer are shooting arrows at you, use your Wall of Reflection" or “This guy hits hard, use an aegis to block when he winds up”

This would teach new players that active defense is important, that they don’t have to rely on HP, Healing power, Toughness to stay alive.

I’ve actually found the non-meta community to be very rude. Some time ago I drew the line to no longer PuG anything for fun. The decision came on the heels of posting an LFG requiring AR, Berserker’s set, and a somewhat DPS oriented setup. After 8 rude PMs and people joining the party to tell me what a horrible person I am, I decided to throw in the towel and really just shut off completely from the PuGs and that whole community.

I applaud the folks who still do try to reach out and help. I don’t play to deal with kittens, and that’s pretty much the experiences I’ve had those players.

Wethospu summed it up pretty well so I won’t really touch on that again.

If I want to be restrictive I just include “only dps, ping gear or kick”.

I say “hi” and wait 10 seconds.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Im well aware Star Ace’s posts look reasonable. Ive seen his replies a number of times now. Its just cleverly disguised.

You might claim to be against intolerance but you seem to be very biased. Sometimes your posts really irritate me because you call someone out for being rude when they really werent just so you can have another go. Atleast thats what it seems like. And its always a meta or zerk player.

No offense to you. But you genuinely come off as very biased and anti meta in my eyes simply because of who you consistantly respond to and how you mention something which is completely reasonable but it implies they do the opposite (this is rude whether you intend it to be or not).

Example:

If you think it’s OK to mock others for not doing things your way, be my guest, but that’s where true toxicity lies.

This sentence implies that you are accusing me of thinking its ok. I know thats not what you meant to do, but it seems that way and it was an unnecessary sentence to begin with. Your posts often include these implications.

To be fair, you were defending an insulting post. Thus it’s not clear whether you think it’s fine to mock others for not going meta. Since you were defending his post, by association one could read “he agrees with his insulting tone.”

I am sorry for hurting your feelings if in fact you disagree with his biased generalizations and judgments against people that choose to play another way. Only you know yourself, and it would be wrong of me to imply you are a jerk without the necessary evidence.

If I look “anti meta” (which isn’t the case, though I am not pro meta, but more pro whatever makes you happy) is because the game indeed would benefit from more diversity. Has nothing to do with opposing those who choose to play as efficient as possible.

Easy to think about it this way. Attack incoming, it does 5k. I can blind/aegis and take 0 damage. Or I can take 5k and need to heal. But if you take the hit your heal only does 4k, unless you toss on some cleric gear, which is going to take away from your potential damage as your power and crits will be weaker due to the tradeoff.

Then there’s also the idea that a blind/aegis either doesn’t take any time, or the ones that do are also attacks doing damage. Where your heals are going to prevent you from attacking while they channel through their cast time. Again, another loss in damage.

Now, thing is there’s many more options for heals, and they’re globally acceptable. IE things don’t always blind, and some stuff won’t be fully prevented with aegis. And the many more options, as a guard I can roll for heals, Virtue, healing skill, regen boon, staff, mace, shield, etc. Lots of heals, lots and lots and lots of heals, most aren’t big, but you can do a LOT of healing if you set yourself up to.

But again, we’re back to the, sacrificing offense for defense. It’s an option, it works, but it’s slower. But the offensive option using active defense, well, we only have so much active defense and a lot of it is on longer reuses.

I have 2 Aegis options, virtue which is a 60-90s reuse with renewed focus on a 2-3min(? i forget) recharge that allows a second use. And Retreat, 60s (48s with trait). So if the fight lasts so long that you run out of those…. not good. So that’s why non zerk guys hurt the group, it’s that they extend fights, make people use up their skills, and let bosses execute more deadly attacks.

A good example is the Destroyer in COE p3, zerk group, easy kill in one round, guard uses retreat to block the first tooth, and courage to block the next, should have it dead by then, but if not the guard could have renewed focus and aegis again. But say you get to that point and it’s not down… THen everyone has to remember to jump out, something they probably aren’t use to if they are use to running zerk groups, that’s the first likely cause of death. Then if no one has died (you’d be lucky) you can start the guns again and go, but doing so will leave the guard with limited if any Aegis available… which can be deadly when you get back in there.

So by not having the damage to take him out in one round you’ve at least doubled the duration as you have to go for a whole other round, and that’s assuming you don’t have people dead because they didn’t jump out in time, rezzing them, even more time. Then lack of Aegis could lead to mroe deaths and more time taken and so on and so forth.

The meta works, it makes sense, but it depends on applying it correctly. People who get into zerk group and are more tanky than damage focused ARE hurting the group. Now that’s not to say the meta is the only way to play.

Personally I play a support guard for my guild group, and we can casually walk through dungeons and destroy them in perfectly fine time, but that’s because we are organized. When I PUG I prefer to jump to the meta side as it’s quick while not being as organized. But I’m not really a huge fan of the meta as it’s difficult and easy to screw up. And screw ups can pretty quickly turn into wipes, and wipes ruin all the time advantage the meta has =).

It’d be nice if people just respected other peoples play style choices and would read the LFG notes. Or at the very least took the time to actually understand the playstyle in which they hate /shrug.

Well thats where the problem lies. His post wasnt insulting unless you are the most easily insulted person on the planet in which case even saying hello to you would be considered an insult. I guess we interpret posts differently.

But you’ve just confirmed my point by admitting you were trying to be rude to me by implying something based on an assumption with no real evidence. The difference between you and him is that you were intentionally being rude and he was simply stating his opinion which some people may take offense from. You cant please everyone with an opinion so i dont consider opinionated posts as “insulting posts”.

Wethospu.6437:

If non-meta runners just accepted that they don’t care about efficiency then all would be fine.

But instead, we get people telling that we don’t know what we are talking about and their build is also efficient, just in a different way. Or how they carry everyone and res noob zerkers. Or how their build is really good.

Also if people respected party descriptions… But no, instead we get people telling how we are evil and toxic because we want to play our own way. Oh, and how evil we are when we try to force our way on everyone else. Yeah right…

They would be silly each and every time they would do that. However, it’s also non true that non meta builds “bring nothing to the group”-a more accurate claim would be that they aren’t as efficient for a speed run (not that you claimed the latter, but it’s a frequently made inflammatory statement.)

You should indeed play your own way in the end, as long you understand and accept that 100% of players shouldn’t necessarily play the same way, regardless their skill level.

I’m only gonna start mocking people when they refuse to read the LFG notes. There’s jerks on either side, and jerks deserve to be insulted, that’s what insults are for!

I’ve had multiple people join groups I’m in that have posted “zerk” and they come in with PVT gear, we kick them, they rejoin, we kick them, they rejoin, and we end up putting them on ignore so they can’t rejoin. On occasion this has broken the LFG thing so we have to start the instance over to have a full group.

DOn’t like the Meta, that’s fine, don’t run it, just don’t join groups that ask for it! I don’t generally run it either, but when I join “zerk” groups I go in full zerk.

Star Ace.5207:

I knew all your arguments before you said them. Your post IS why people hate Berserker’s gear users. You give them a bad name. No reason to get this angry over people playing whatever, much less attack them and make irrational “90% are bad” generalizations.

They are “greedy”, “selfish”, etc., if they don’t play your way. :P How more insulting can you get? You hate THEM, seeing them as “lowly”, as much as they supposedly hate you.

Hate the jerk, not the zerk.

(You do know that sometimes speedrunners ALSO join casual runs and complain, right? Unless they take for granted that every run is a speedrun, which isn’t true. Perhaps players know how to read more than what you are giving them credit for. Perhaps they made a mistake, or just want to annoy.)

Funny you should say that because I predicted this response already.

You know your post is the reason why people dislike non zerk users. You act like you know something but you don’t. Which I find funny.

Go to any PuG group and tell them the smallest change in the nicest way. Ranger run x please. Can you stack. etc etc. See how they respond. Most of the time it is a negative response or an excuse. Like we kill it just fine so we don’t have to change (getting carried?) or stop whining when it was just one comment about say getting frost spirit, stack tighter, or swapping out a movement speed signet during battle. It is all about teamwork but if you ask in a PuG group to do this it won’t happen or negativity comes from it even if you say it nicely.

Play how you want is the most toxic attitude that is perpetuated on these forums. It is about playing as a team. If some day Zealot becomes the best stat since healing power matters. I would run it instead of Zerk. Why? I’m want to contribute to the team. Not doing so means you are selfish and only thing about yourself. Why should use play how you want and ruin the experience for 4 other random people. You shouldn’t that is the definition of selfishness. Now if you are with 4 friends then that is a different story.

I love how you read beyond what I wrote. How do I think they are as you called them “lowly”. I have a feeling you are one of these people that think other people think of you as X because you fall under this category of individuals that people talk about on these forums. In fact my gripe is simply these “play how you want” individuals I encounter do nothing to contribute to the team. Even when they run like subpar gear and you ask them to carry just one utility to help the team they refuse to do so.

Speed runs do pugs all the time. I do coordinated speed runs with my guild and I have seen DnT members in my Arah pugs so it is nothing new to me. Just because someone doesn’t complain publicly doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it on TeamSpeak or other voice comms. That is the problem when people are like “nobody complains about me wearing x subpar gear.”

Uhhh iono what game you have been playing. But it isn’t just me that said people don’t read LFGs. Other people have said it on this forum. So either you are delusional or you are arguing for the sake of arguing. For example, if you put like say p1 you some times get people who ask you “what path is this” when it is the first thing people would read. For those that say make your own group but if you put full zerk there are people who join that doesn’t match that even when asked for gear checks. Then again gear checkers are elitists based on these forums.

As for 90%. Why do pugs dislike rangers. Is it because they are bad in dungeons? Nope as proven already over and over. The reason is that if you get a ranger in your group you can expect that the ranger won’t play well or won’t contribute to the team. Or what would you say “perhaps they don’t know”. Well if you suggest something to them nicely most of the time they’ll respond negatively to you or they will refuse to do it and contribute to the team.

Star Ace.5207:

Wethospu.6437:

If non-meta runners just accepted that they don’t care about efficiency then all would be fine.

But instead, we get people telling that we don’t know what we are talking about and their build is also efficient, just in a different way. Or how they carry everyone and res noob zerkers. Or how their build is really good.

Also if people respected party descriptions… But no, instead we get people telling how we are evil and toxic because we want to play our own way. Oh, and how evil we are when we try to force our way on everyone else. Yeah right…

They would be silly each and every time they would do that. However, it’s also non true that non meta builds “bring nothing to the group”-a more accurate claim would be that they aren’t as efficient for a speed run (not that you claimed the latter, but it’s a frequently made inflammatory statement.)

You should indeed play your own way in the end, as long you understand and accept that 100% of players shouldn’t necessarily play the same way, regardless their skill level.

So the big question is how is say PTV contributing equally or more than zerk build? There are people on these forums that say PTV is contributing cause they res dead zerk players. I find that is more of a skill problem. If both PTV and zerk player dodged perfectly then what is the point of running PTV. What does it contribute? Since you claim that the statement “bring nothing to the group” is inaccurate I want you to state specifically how they are contributing. My argument is that they aren’t because the toughness and vitality are wasted if you dodge/aegis/active defense your way to avoid damage.

Beyond stats for traits lets look at say guardian. If they run shielded mind or indomitable courage. Now is that contributing or bring anything to the team? What if you don’t encounter any CC in a dungeon is shielded mind good or contributing? I would say no. You can say indomitable courage bring stability but isn’t there a better alternative like hallowed ground. So are you contributing by bring indomitable courage. I would say very little due to how often you can use it and the duration of that stability.

GW2 is an MMO aka a team based game. I expect people to contribute and play as a team. Not play however you want. It isn’t about understanding that there will be people who don’t play a specific way. My gripe is simply they do not contribute or unwilling to play as a team which is problematic in a team based game like GW2. Sure they run subpar armor that is fine but when I ask for them to run a specific utility or possibly trait to at least contribute something or help out the team. A person’s refusal or inaction tells me a lot about.

^^ Very good posts. And the answer to many of your questions are simply “well it’s nice if you screw up”

Stability on courage, it’s nice if you blew your stand your ground for whatever reason and need a second stability. Good example is I usually run stand your ground during the spider in AC, I dont need to use it, but sometimes I do out of shear stupidity. But then we move on the gravelings where I wanted that stability, and the reason I keep it traited at that part, but now I don’t have it… unless I’m traited for indomitable courage.

Heals in general aren’t needed, unless people screw up, then of course it’s nice, but the meta is a “go big or go home” mentality, they have no intentions of screwing up.

The more defensive options have their uses, but the play styles are simply different. A good meta group shouldn’t be taking much damage, so healing is not needed. With proper timing and quick fights boon duration, or second abilities to give more coverage of things, just isn’t necessary.

So these non meta players do bring useful tools, they just aren’t really useful to the meta groups.

Jerus.4350:

^^ Very good posts. And the answer to many of your questions are simply “well it’s nice if you screw up”

Stability on courage, it’s nice if you blew your stand your ground for whatever reason and need a second stability. Good example is I usually run stand your ground during the spider in AC, I dont need to use it, but sometimes I do out of shear stupidity. But then we move on the gravelings where I wanted that stability, and the reason I keep it traited at that part, but now I don’t have it… unless I’m traited for indomitable courage.

Heals in general aren’t needed, unless people screw up, then of course it’s nice, but the meta is a “go big or go home” mentality, they have no intentions of screwing up.

The more defensive options have their uses, but the play styles are simply different. A good meta group shouldn’t be taking much damage, so healing is not needed. With proper timing and quick fights boon duration, or second abilities to give more coverage of things, just isn’t necessary.

So these non meta players do bring useful tools, they just aren’t really useful to the meta groups.

I agree with this. Some playstyles are not compatible, but it doesn’t mean one is more valid than the other. For the fastest speed run you wouldn’t ever bring a full healing build-however that doesn’t mean those players are selfish, bad, or dumb.

And to the other poster, I have never in my life stated that Soldier’s is more damaging than Berserker’s. :P You are confusing me with other people. They have the right to use Soldier’s nonetheless, and you the choice not to play with them.

I enjoy playing with my Berserker’s gear Elementalist, but I also enjoy many other things.

(Also, I am 100% sure that ANet doesn’t agree that playing how you want is “toxic” to the game. Aren’t meta people playing how they want to? It’s their right. Play with people that share your views, and stop insulting those that do not.)

Star Ace.5207:

that doesn’t mean those players are selfish, bad, or dumb.

I agree, until they join my groups, paying no regard to the extremely explicit requirements I listed on my ads. That makes me assume that they’re either selfish or too distracted.

Star Ace.5207:

I agree with this. Some playstyles are not compatible, but it doesn’t mean one is more valid than the other. For the fastest speed run you wouldn’t ever bring a full healing build-however that doesn’t mean those players are selfish, bad, or dumb.

And to the other poster, I have never in my life stated that Soldier’s is more damaging than Berserker’s. :P You are confusing me with other people. They have the right to use Soldier’s nonetheless, and you the choice not to play with them.

I enjoy playing with my Berserker’s gear Elementalist, but I also enjoy many other things.

(Also, I am 100% sure that ANet doesn’t agree that playing how you want is “toxic” to the game. Aren’t meta people playing how they want to? It’s their right. Play with people that share your views, and stop insulting those that do not.)

Let me quote you:
“They would be silly each and every time they would do that. However, it’s also non true that non meta builds “bring nothing to the group”-a more accurate claim would be that they aren’t as efficient for a speed run (not that you claimed the latter, but it’s a frequently made inflammatory statement.)”

So my question is how do they bring something or contribute equally or more than zerker. That is my question since you as quoted say it is not true that non meta builds bring nothing. So I want to know what exactly does PTV bring compared to say meta aka Zerker.

People don’t have a right to choose whatever they want. They should use what is best for a team and/or group. GW2 is a team based game your actions aren’t isolated. They affect other people. If you play say Skyrim or FF then sure use whatever you want. It is like going to the movies and you discuss what is happening with your friend next to you. And someone tells you to quiet down because they personally can’t hear and/or enjoy the movie. The excuse you use is that I want to watch this movie however I want since of course I paid for it. Is this right? Of course not. So then why are games an exception? As you can see in both cases your action of “doing whatever you want” has an effect on other people.

Again how do we choose not to play with them when they join up anyways (not reading LFG). On top of that people are called elitists if they kick or gear check. The expectation based on forum posts is that if you want to run dps, get people to contribute their 20% to a group/party/team then either they are elitists or they need to suck it up and let people play how they want. Nobody ever tells “play how you want” that they need to also suck it up and contribute a lot more to their team’s success. In fact if you make such a suggestion it is considered elitism.

I’m sure at some level Anet will agree that what is toxic is people not playing as a team or being team players. Their track record shows that they release a bunch of things relating to team play more so than solo play or “play how you want” .

More support options for different professions.
Tequ, Living Story, Wurm all require a lot of team work and coordination.
The AC changes and TA Aetherblade path all involve a bit more team work/coordination than their previous paths.
Just to name a few including all the changes in WvW and PvP. I can’t think of something that Anet added that wasn’t team based. Do we have solo challenges/instances/dungeons like other MMORPGs? Nope. What we have mostly is game modes that by nature require us to coordinate and play as a team together. Not play how you want. How can you run PTH in a dungeon and knowing full well the heals aren’t helping or contributing to a group and be like “I just want to play how I want” and then go “I’m not greedy” and “I’m a team player” . That just doesn’t work.

CuRtoKy.8576:

Star Ace.5207:

I agree with this. Some playstyles are not compatible, but it doesn’t mean one is more valid than the other. For the fastest speed run you wouldn’t ever bring a full healing build-however that doesn’t mean those players are selfish, bad, or dumb.

And to the other poster, I have never in my life stated that Soldier’s is more damaging than Berserker’s. :P You are confusing me with other people. They have the right to use Soldier’s nonetheless, and you the choice not to play with them.

I enjoy playing with my Berserker’s gear Elementalist, but I also enjoy many other things.

(Also, I am 100% sure that ANet doesn’t agree that playing how you want is “toxic” to the game. Aren’t meta people playing how they want to? It’s their right. Play with people that share your views, and stop insulting those that do not.)

Let me quote you:
“They would be silly each and every time they would do that. However, it’s also non true that non meta builds “bring nothing to the group”-a more accurate claim would be that they aren’t as efficient for a speed run (not that you claimed the latter, but it’s a frequently made inflammatory statement.)”

So my question is how do they bring something or contribute equally or more than zerker. That is my question since you as quoted say it is not true that non meta builds bring nothing. So I want to know what exactly does PTV bring compared to say meta aka Zerker.

People don’t have a right to choose whatever they want. They should use what is best for a team and/or group. GW2 is a team based game your actions aren’t isolated. They affect other people. If you play say Skyrim or FF then sure use whatever you want. It is like going to the movies and you discuss what is happening with your friend next to you. And someone tells you to quiet down because they personally can’t hear and/or enjoy the movie. The excuse you use is that I want to watch this movie however I want since of course I paid for it. Is this right? Of course not. So then why are games an exception? As you can see in both cases your action of “doing whatever you want” has an effect on other people.

Again how do we choose not to play with them when they join up anyways (not reading LFG). On top of that people are called elitists if they kick or gear check. The expectation based on forum posts is that if you want to run dps, get people to contribute their 20% to a group/party/team then either they are elitists or they need to suck it up and let people play how they want. Nobody ever tells “play how you want” that they need to also suck it up and contribute a lot more to their team’s success. In fact if you make such a suggestion it is considered elitism.

I’m sure at some level Anet will agree that what is toxic is people not playing as a team or being team players. Their track record shows that they release a bunch of things relating to team play more so than solo play or “play how you want” .

More support options for different professions.
Tequ, Living Story, Wurm all require a lot of team work and coordination.
The AC changes and TA Aetherblade path all involve a bit more team work/coordination than their previous paths.
Just to name a few including all the changes in WvW and PvP. I can’t think of something that Anet added that wasn’t team based. Do we have solo challenges/instances/dungeons like other MMORPGs? Nope. What we have mostly is game modes that by nature require us to coordinate and play as a team together. Not play how you want. How can you run PTH in a dungeon and knowing full well the heals aren’t helping or contributing to a group and be like “I just want to play how I want” and then go “I’m not greedy” and “I’m a team player” . That just doesn’t work.

The answer lies in Jerus’s post, which I agreed with. You are living in a bubble where only your speed run style matters. Plenty of team workers in less efficient builds. They are just not speed running builds.

Star Ace.5207:

Jerus.4350:

^^ Very good posts. And the answer to many of your questions are simply “well it’s nice if you screw up”

Stability on courage, it’s nice if you blew your stand your ground for whatever reason and need a second stability. Good example is I usually run stand your ground during the spider in AC, I dont need to use it, but sometimes I do out of shear stupidity. But then we move on the gravelings where I wanted that stability, and the reason I keep it traited at that part, but now I don’t have it… unless I’m traited for indomitable courage.

Heals in general aren’t needed, unless people screw up, then of course it’s nice, but the meta is a “go big or go home” mentality, they have no intentions of screwing up.

The more defensive options have their uses, but the play styles are simply different. A good meta group shouldn’t be taking much damage, so healing is not needed. With proper timing and quick fights boon duration, or second abilities to give more coverage of things, just isn’t necessary.

So these non meta players do bring useful tools, they just aren’t really useful to the meta groups.

I agree with this. Some playstyles are not compatible, but it doesn’t mean one is more valid than the other. For the fastest speed run you wouldn’t ever bring a full healing build-however that doesn’t mean those players are selfish, bad, or dumb.

And to the other poster, I have never in my life stated that Soldier’s is more damaging than Berserker’s. :P You are confusing me with other people. They have the right to use Soldier’s nonetheless, and you the choice not to play with them.

I enjoy playing with my Berserker’s gear Elementalist, but I also enjoy many other things.

(Also, I am 100% sure that ANet doesn’t agree that playing how you want is “toxic” to the game. Aren’t meta people playing how they want to? It’s their right. Play with people that share your views, and stop insulting those that do not.)

There is nothing wrong with a non optimal play style. I personally just wish people would accept that it isn’t optimal though. That’s all. The meta is the meta because it’s the most efficient way to play. But it’s stressful, it’s hard, and it takes more effort than many (including me) want to put into the game on a daily basis.

My group usually posts for a zerk when we look to fill a slot. It’s probably close to half the time we get someone who clearly isn’t zerk, and a lot of the time we just ignore it and go, but if they die or fall behind we just leave them, and other times we’ll kick them. I’m sorry but read the description, please!

I think that’s at least a bit what CuRtoKy is getting at with calling the “play your way” attitude toxic. We have these people jumping into groups being selfish pricks and ignoring the notes that are honestly very reasonable and clear. The zerk Meta depends on damage, someone not holding up their end will cause the whole group more stress. That’s being a selfish lazy jerk to do that to other people so that you can survive easily while they carry you through the dungeon. They don’t need or want your heals or whatever you may be getting as the alternative, they want your damage, they asked for your damage and you decided you know better(note that’s a you, the people like that, not a you star). The people who can’t recognize this as wrong ARE bad and dumb. Those who don’t want to deal with zerk people telling them what to do, that’s perfectly fine, but when you join their groups you’re entering that world, so shut up and listen if you don’t know what you’re doing.

But then again, there’s absolutely no point in complaining about those people on a forum because they just don’t care. So on the forums we have people who defend people’s choices because what they experience is the few idiot zerkers who join non meta groups and start acting like fools. And we have the meta folks who deal with the jerks who just don’t care. So everyone here is dealing with jerks of some kind because we all can read, so we all know to not join the groups that aren’t posted as our play style =).

CuRtoKy.8576:

So my question is how do they bring something or contribute equally or more than zerker. That is my question since you as quoted say it is not true that non meta builds bring nothing. So I want to know what exactly does PTV bring compared to say meta aka Zerker.

Just for information sake, while I 100% agree it’s a lazy play style, i mean that’s why I choose to play it, it is very solid still, we finish dungeons in only a couple minutes behind the zerk builds, if that. It’s fun though, relaxing, and just a lot less work, so me and the guys I play with go with that.

We run 4 zerks and a pvt/cleric support guard. I run it as 0/0/10/30/30. And we go boon duration food/runes. What this allows us to do is have constant stability almost. That just makes things easy, not having to time it, and have the freedom to miss a dodge without getting stunned or what not. Again, lazy, yes, but it’s less stressful!

Also the fight does last longer, but with the full range of heals and damage prevention that a support guard can provide is very nice. And the reason PVT gear is nice is because it allows the guardian to more freely use what he has as he doesn’t have to worry about himself. Where zerk guard you are quite squishy and can’t have all the tools, they aren’t as powerful, and sometimes you have to save things for potential bigger dangers instead of blowing as you know you have more. The last one kinda focusing on the condi cures on shouts, that’s a nice thing beinga ble to strip a single condition with one of those and still have your bigger virtue or purging flames cures available still.

There are other examples. In TA the wurm fight, if I’m in enough toughness gear the wurms will target me with that spit stuff (the bunch of red circles). I can use htat to just sit at range with my staff destroying the poison things and keeping almost all the damage off the group, all they have to do really is avoid the big swing they do, which I’ll usually have them loaded with aegis and stability anyways, and heals to back them up if they screw up. There are other situations that use that same kind of thing, like later in TA when we have the archers in bubbles. Or CoF, tanking the big swarm before the end of 2, keeping them stationary for easy and fun mass slaughter. And CoF1 before the end while the guy destroys the one thing to open the door I can pull agro and tank 3-4 of the other spawns sets of charr.

I can also turn back in runs and help people with stability/aegis/heals/swiftness. I can play completely unselfishly with everything except my damage/passive defense, that’s where I take my thing in order to take pressure off of everyone else. It makes life easier on the rest of the group,but does it make it faster, or more efficient? it basically just depends on if you’re wiping when you go zerk.

But again, I call it as I see it and I call it lazy, but that’s why I play it. I get home from work, I don’t always want to be on the top of my game, this allows me and my group to play lazy and make mistakes and still get through quite quickly as the overall damage loss isn’t that bad with just one of us going PVT.

Just throwing this out there as an viable situation in which PVT is nice to have. But we are an organized group, and we do our best to optimize in every other way. I still PUG zerk, because with as many mis-ques as you have in a PUG it’s kinda nice to be able to just power through with DPS and good play.

Jerus.4350:

CuRtoKy.8576:

So my question is how do they bring something or contribute equally or more than zerker. That is my question since you as quoted say it is not true that non meta builds bring nothing. So I want to know what exactly does PTV bring compared to say meta aka Zerker.

Just for information sake, while I 100% agree it’s a lazy play style, i mean that’s why I choose to play it, it is very solid still, we finish dungeons in only a couple minutes behind the zerk builds, if that. It’s fun though, relaxing, and just a lot less work, so me and the guys I play with go with that.

We run 4 zerks and a pvt/cleric support guard. I run it as 0/0/10/30/30. And we go boon duration food/runes. What this allows us to do is have constant stability almost. That just makes things easy, not having to time it, and have the freedom to miss a dodge without getting stunned or what not. Again, lazy, yes, but it’s less stressful!

Also the fight does last longer, but with the full range of heals and damage prevention that a support guard can provide is very nice. And the reason PVT gear is nice is because it allows the guardian to more freely use what he has as he doesn’t have to worry about himself. Where zerk guard you are quite squishy and can’t have all the tools, they aren’t as powerful, and sometimes you have to save things for potential bigger dangers instead of blowing as you know you have more. The last one kinda focusing on the condi cures on shouts, that’s a nice thing beinga ble to strip a single condition with one of those and still have your bigger virtue or purging flames cures available still.

There are other examples. In TA the wurm fight, if I’m in enough toughness gear the wurms will target me with that spit stuff (the bunch of red circles). I can use htat to just sit at range with my staff destroying the poison things and keeping almost all the damage off the group, all they have to do really is avoid the big swing they do, which I’ll usually have them loaded with aegis and stability anyways, and heals to back them up if they screw up. There are other situations that use that same kind of thing, like later in TA when we have the archers in bubbles. Or CoF, tanking the big swarm before the end of 2, keeping them stationary for easy and fun mass slaughter. And CoF1 before the end while the guy destroys the one thing to open the door I can pull agro and tank 3-4 of the other spawns sets of charr.

I can also turn back in runs and help people with stability/aegis/heals/swiftness. I can play completely unselfishly with everything except my damage/passive defense, that’s where I take my thing in order to take pressure off of everyone else. It makes life easier on the rest of the group,but does it make it faster, or more efficient? it basically just depends on if you’re wiping when you go zerk.

But again, I call it as I see it and I call it lazy, but that’s why I play it. I get home from work, I don’t always want to be on the top of my game, this allows me and my group to play lazy and make mistakes and still get through quite quickly as the overall damage loss isn’t that bad with just one of us going PVT.

Just throwing this out there as an viable situation in which PVT is nice to have. But we are an organized group, and we do our best to optimize in every other way. I still PUG zerk, because with as many mis-ques as you have in a PUG it’s kinda nice to be able to just power through with DPS and good play.

I don’t think it’s necessarily lazy, but indeed it’s not suited for speed runs, in which we all can agree. You are employing teamwork and tactics with your mates-it just won’t be the fastest runs ever.

There are anti speed run jerks to be sure (the reason this thread was made)-the prejudice can sadly be mutual.

CuRtoKy.8576:

Star Ace.5207:

I knew all your arguments before you said them. Your post IS why people hate Berserker’s gear users. You give them a bad name. No reason to get this angry over people playing whatever, much less attack them and make irrational “90% are bad” generalizations.

They are “greedy”, “selfish”, etc., if they don’t play your way. :P How more insulting can you get? You hate THEM, seeing them as “lowly”, as much as they supposedly hate you.

Hate the jerk, not the zerk.

(You do know that sometimes speedrunners ALSO join casual runs and complain, right? Unless they take for granted that every run is a speedrun, which isn’t true. Perhaps players know how to read more than what you are giving them credit for. Perhaps they made a mistake, or just want to annoy.)

Funny you should say that because I predicted this response already.

You know your post is the reason why people dislike non zerk users. You act like you know something but you don’t. Which I find funny.

Go to any PuG group and tell them the smallest change in the nicest way. Ranger run x please. Can you stack. etc etc. See how they respond. Most of the time it is a negative response or an excuse. Like we kill it just fine so we don’t have to change (getting carried?) or stop whining when it was just one comment about say getting frost spirit, stack tighter, or swapping out a movement speed signet during battle. It is all about teamwork but if you ask in a PuG group to do this it won’t happen or negativity comes from it even if you say it nicely.

Play how you want is the most toxic attitude that is perpetuated on these forums. It is about playing as a team. If some day Zealot becomes the best stat since healing power matters. I would run it instead of Zerk. Why? I’m want to contribute to the team. Not doing so means you are selfish and only thing about yourself. Why should use play how you want and ruin the experience for 4 other random people. You shouldn’t that is the definition of selfishness. Now if you are with 4 friends then that is a different story.

I love how you read beyond what I wrote. How do I think they are as you called them “lowly”. I have a feeling you are one of these people that think other people think of you as X because you fall under this category of individuals that people talk about on these forums. In fact my gripe is simply these “play how you want” individuals I encounter do nothing to contribute to the team. Even when they run like subpar gear and you ask them to carry just one utility to help the team they refuse to do so.

Speed runs do pugs all the time. I do coordinated speed runs with my guild and I have seen DnT members in my Arah pugs so it is nothing new to me. Just because someone doesn’t complain publicly doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it on TeamSpeak or other voice comms. That is the problem when people are like “nobody complains about me wearing x subpar gear.”

Uhhh iono what game you have been playing. But it isn’t just me that said people don’t read LFGs. Other people have said it on this forum. So either you are delusional or you are arguing for the sake of arguing. For example, if you put like say p1 you some times get people who ask you “what path is this” when it is the first thing people would read. For those that say make your own group but if you put full zerk there are people who join that doesn’t match that even when asked for gear checks. Then again gear checkers are elitists based on these forums.

As for 90%. Why do pugs dislike rangers. Is it because they are bad in dungeons? Nope as proven already over and over. The reason is that if you get a ranger in your group you can expect that the ranger won’t play well or won’t contribute to the team. Or what would you say “perhaps they don’t know”. Well if you suggest something to them nicely most of the time they’ll respond negatively to you or they will refuse to do it and contribute to the team.

OMG everything you said is top noch.And about rangers you couldn’t be more right.In general i don’t mind to have ranger in the group the problem starts when 90% of the people don’t know how to play the class properly.They are neither buffing the group nor are helping with the dmg.Only 10% of the rangers know how to play.About the rest i just don’t have words…
When i see a bear/bow ranger it is an instant kick.Those don’t contribute to the party with anything and are being boosted and that is something that i don’t tolerate and don’t like at all.

Purple Miku.7032:

I have been kicked from a solo Arah p3 before while streaming it, when I was giving it out for free at the end to people that were watching and wanted it. The last two people were waiting for that moment and justified kicking me because I was “using the zerker build and encouraging toxic gameplay by discouraging build diversity, exploiting with consumables that weren’t intended to be used in dungeons and skipping past mobs”

oh man /o\
take a cookie

ppl hate zerks, but loves when they are in their party. is this some kind of paradox? if someone can explain it, well, here i am, listening you.

Star Ace.5207:

CuRtoKy.8576:

NoTrigger.8396:

Axelwarrior.9084:

The problem isn’t caused by the stat, it’s caused by the dungeon imbalance.

Currently, Berserker’s is ALWAYS the best solution to everything (well, maybe with rare exceptions, usually being Assassin’s) because we can bypass the difficulty by stacking/skipping etc.

If “exploits” weren’t possible, then we’d need more survivability in dungeons and thus Berserker’s wouldn’t always be the best option.

from this post alone i can say you dont know what you are talking about and you should spend your time to l2p the game instead of writing nonsense.

Agreed. I guess to some people dodging, timing aegis correctly, or evades isn’t surviving but mindlessly tanking something with PTV is survivability.

While I do not hate Berserker’s gear, I bet that you have no evidence that 100% of players that use Soldier’s for whatever reason do not know how to dodge or just want to “mindlessly facetank.” Insulting generalizations like these not only don’t help your case, but perpetuate the irrational hate on both sides of the coin.

Just play, don’t hate.

Actually, I have talked to people (I can’t name them because of forum rules) that have specifically said they run soldiers gear because they suck at dodging. That’s not a generalization. That’s fact. I’ve seen their DPS in dungeons. They are running soldiers gear and they are bad at dodging. At least the ones I have played with were upfront about it.

moiraine.2753:

CuRtoKy.8576:

Star Ace.5207:

I knew all your arguments before you said them. Your post IS why people hate Berserker’s gear users. You give them a bad name. No reason to get this angry over people playing whatever, much less attack them and make irrational “90% are bad” generalizations.

They are “greedy”, “selfish”, etc., if they don’t play your way. :P How more insulting can you get? You hate THEM, seeing them as “lowly”, as much as they supposedly hate you.

Hate the jerk, not the zerk.

(You do know that sometimes speedrunners ALSO join casual runs and complain, right? Unless they take for granted that every run is a speedrun, which isn’t true. Perhaps players know how to read more than what you are giving them credit for. Perhaps they made a mistake, or just want to annoy.)

Funny you should say that because I predicted this response already.

You know your post is the reason why people dislike non zerk users. You act like you know something but you don’t. Which I find funny.

Go to any PuG group and tell them the smallest change in the nicest way. Ranger run x please. Can you stack. etc etc. See how they respond. Most of the time it is a negative response or an excuse. Like we kill it just fine so we don’t have to change (getting carried?) or stop whining when it was just one comment about say getting frost spirit, stack tighter, or swapping out a movement speed signet during battle. It is all about teamwork but if you ask in a PuG group to do this it won’t happen or negativity comes from it even if you say it nicely.

Play how you want is the most toxic attitude that is perpetuated on these forums. It is about playing as a team. If some day Zealot becomes the best stat since healing power matters. I would run it instead of Zerk. Why? I’m want to contribute to the team. Not doing so means you are selfish and only thing about yourself. Why should use play how you want and ruin the experience for 4 other random people. You shouldn’t that is the definition of selfishness. Now if you are with 4 friends then that is a different story.

I love how you read beyond what I wrote. How do I think they are as you called them “lowly”. I have a feeling you are one of these people that think other people think of you as X because you fall under this category of individuals that people talk about on these forums. In fact my gripe is simply these “play how you want” individuals I encounter do nothing to contribute to the team. Even when they run like subpar gear and you ask them to carry just one utility to help the team they refuse to do so.

Speed runs do pugs all the time. I do coordinated speed runs with my guild and I have seen DnT members in my Arah pugs so it is nothing new to me. Just because someone doesn’t complain publicly doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it on TeamSpeak or other voice comms. That is the problem when people are like “nobody complains about me wearing x subpar gear.”

Uhhh iono what game you have been playing. But it isn’t just me that said people don’t read LFGs. Other people have said it on this forum. So either you are delusional or you are arguing for the sake of arguing. For example, if you put like say p1 you some times get people who ask you “what path is this” when it is the first thing people would read. For those that say make your own group but if you put full zerk there are people who join that doesn’t match that even when asked for gear checks. Then again gear checkers are elitists based on these forums.

As for 90%. Why do pugs dislike rangers. Is it because they are bad in dungeons? Nope as proven already over and over. The reason is that if you get a ranger in your group you can expect that the ranger won’t play well or won’t contribute to the team. Or what would you say “perhaps they don’t know”. Well if you suggest something to them nicely most of the time they’ll respond negatively to you or they will refuse to do it and contribute to the team.

OMG everything you said is top noch.And about rangers you couldn’t be more right.In general i don’t mind to have ranger in the group the problem starts when 90% of the people don’t know how to play the class properly.They are neither buffing the group nor are helping with the dmg.Only 10% of the rangers know how to play.About the rest i just don’t have words…
When i see a bear/bow ranger it is an instant kick.Those don’t contribute to the party with anything and are being boosted and that is something that i don’t tolerate and don’t like at all.

I’ve played with rangers that themselves do fanstastic. but those pets… I swear any dungeon no matter how well the ranger is doing, the pet will find a way to screw something up. Popping the poison pods in TA while we are all stealthed…Ruining stacks…just likes to screw things up.

If rangers could simply suspend their pets during combat I’d like them a lot more.

Jerus@

Yea can’t they put it on passive or something?

moiraine.2753:

Jerus@

Yea can’t they put it on passive or something?

If I understand it correctly, they can do a lot of control, but in the end, it will be out during combat, and even if on passive it has the potential to screw things up because the entire system is FUBAR.

Really should (and i’ve been told they said they were going to initially) have something that allows them to suspend the pet and in return get a buff to make up for the damage loss.

Tying a class to terrible AI sucks. Mesmer is “ok” because they’re temp pets that you can shatter, and at least act somewhat predictably. But Rangers, no, you have to have that little piece of crud sitting next to you anytime you’re in combat, you can suspend it, but he automatically pops out if you are put in combat apparently (i don’t play one, I just get frustrated watching them).

It’s just unacceptably bad. Most rangers simply don’t understand the dungeon mentality hearing things like “I don’t know what people are talking about melee being better, I do better range” ugh, but then ther are those few that actually try and do something good, and that stupid freakin AI screws them over. It’s not even ranger’s faults but I hate them with a passion because they’re class is so kittenty due to poor design.

Sorry to rant, but like… really? this game is how old and that’s still an issue? A feature pack is coming and as far as I know a solution to this problem isn’t in it. ugh.

Pet AI is fine. People don’t understand how to control them.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Pet AI is fine. People don’t understand how to control them.

That’s cool. like I said, I don’t play one. But EVERY ranger i’ve played with has had their pet pull agro and draw something out of the stack back to the middle of the room. They’ll say it was on passive or something, glad to hear it’s possible, but still yet to meet a ranger who can do it.

thefantasticg.3984:

Star Ace.5207:

CuRtoKy.8576:

NoTrigger.8396:

Axelwarrior.9084:

The problem isn’t caused by the stat, it’s caused by the dungeon imbalance.

Currently, Berserker’s is ALWAYS the best solution to everything (well, maybe with rare exceptions, usually being Assassin’s) because we can bypass the difficulty by stacking/skipping etc.

If “exploits” weren’t possible, then we’d need more survivability in dungeons and thus Berserker’s wouldn’t always be the best option.

from this post alone i can say you dont know what you are talking about and you should spend your time to l2p the game instead of writing nonsense.

Agreed. I guess to some people dodging, timing aegis correctly, or evades isn’t surviving but mindlessly tanking something with PTV is survivability.

While I do not hate Berserker’s gear, I bet that you have no evidence that 100% of players that use Soldier’s for whatever reason do not know how to dodge or just want to “mindlessly facetank.” Insulting generalizations like these not only don’t help your case, but perpetuate the irrational hate on both sides of the coin.

Just play, don’t hate.

Actually, I have talked to people (I can’t name them because of forum rules) that have specifically said they run soldiers gear because they suck at dodging. That’s not a generalization. That’s fact. I’ve seen their DPS in dungeons. They are running soldiers gear and they are bad at dodging. At least the ones I have played with were upfront about it.

It is a generalization and anecdotal bias. In any case, just don’t play with them if you despise Soldier’s gear this much. Dodging is not attached to gear at all, even if in the case of those “bad players” (in your view, seemingly) it is the case.

Isn’t it inappropriate to assume that people are bad at dodging just because of the gear they have chosen to use? Either “zerk” or “you don’t know how to dodge”?

I’ll give you an scenario of people who are good at dodging but still get downed occasionally-one shotters with lightning fast tells to no tells (there are a few). In those cases SOMETIMES Soldier’s or Knight’s make you resist instant downed mode. Still won’t be ideal for speedruns, but Soldier’s is not a seal of “baddiness” unless you are biased in that way. People saying “I use Soldier’s so I don’t need to dodge” are just expressing their own views, not everyone else’s, as everybody benefits from dodging in this game, not only “zerkers”.

As much hype as zero dodges videos get, dodging is part of the game and refusing to do so is bad for casual and/or relaxed runs too, not only speedruns. Soldier’s isnt’ an excuse to “unbind” your dodge key. :P The claim makes no logical sense to me.

Just as in life, things must not be that black and white in this game. No offense intended at all.

Jerus.4350:

I’ve played with rangers that themselves do fanstastic. but those pets… I swear any dungeon no matter how well the ranger is doing, the pet will find a way to screw something up. Popping the poison pods in TA while we are all stealthed…Ruining stacks…just likes to screw things up.

If rangers could simply suspend their pets during combat I’d like them a lot more.

“Suspending” their pets during combat would actually be worse. :P Don’t let the bias get to you, well-played Rangers are actually good “even with the pet.”

I think Ranger Profession is misleading, because it seems “easy to play” but there are some nuances that people need to practice and master. That doesn’t mean, however, that every Ranger pug is horrible (IME-and yes, also anecdotal-the “bad” Rangers have actually never been the majority, so I think many people are just biased against them, when all is said and done.)

Pffft. Pug rangers are a disgrace to their team so often that I’d advise anyone of the “efficient run” type to take them only after checking extensively their weapons, utilities and gear, or even better – not at all. Depends on your confidence.
Even if I play ranger myself, yeah.
It’s not a bias, it’s just that people who play well are a minority.
And the pet isn’t broken, that’s true. Unresponsive maybe, but… It’s yer fault if you fail.
^
This doesn’t apply when [I’m] you’re raging like a little kid because [I] you died. [I’m] You’re absolutely entitled to blame the pet, anet, any deity of your choice and [my] your cat if it please [me] you.

And yeah, rangers aren’t doing fantastic if their pet screws up. They’ve just kitten ed. You can kitten often as a ranger, just don’t run around saying you’re a great player. Sometimes I aggro stuff and my team struggles…
…it’s because I suck. I just can’t blame Debby
Whatever.
Pig how you want… just stop being stubborn, you and your nonsensical builds. Respect your pug team. They’re strangers, they’re not your friends, they don’t have to withstand your whimsical desire to feel special with your sword/axe healway warrior. If they ask you to bring something specific, make sure to do so.
My [victims] team, on the other hand… Bwahahaha. Fear the No Stacking and Mortadella the pig!
Sorry but not sorry.

Raven.3248:

I dont get it! Why all the hate? Is it jealousy, ignorance or just something to complain about?

Why do you care what other ppl do? Just do your thing with ppl like you!

caused most people who play zerker don’t know how to play zerker and drop dead. Causing squad to wipe or watch others slowly kill the boss. And yes most people who play zerkers die fairly quickly. O an they don’t retrait to fight bosses they can’t crit.

Build you use should be conditional. And mostly based on party design to optimize the groups efforts.

Anet made it prity cheap to get multiple sets of gear. zerker isn’t op at everything. However one hit kill mechanics really do support zerker builds. but ultimately weather a zerker lives to deal damage is based on party support or there own individual skill.

And to the zerkers who try to tank for the party will just die quickly. I bet you hate crit damage and crit chance are being separated.

Critical chance and damage has always been separate.

Fafnir.5124:

Raven.3248:

I dont get it! Why all the hate? Is it jealousy, ignorance or just something to complain about?

Why do you care what other ppl do? Just do your thing with ppl like you!

caused most people who play zerker don’t know how to play zerker and drop dead. Causing squad to wipe or watch others slowly kill the boss. And yes most people who play zerkers die fairly quickly. O an they don’t retrait to fight bosses they can’t crit.

Build you use should be conditional. And mostly based on party design to optimize the groups efforts.

Anet made it prity cheap to get multiple sets of gear. zerker isn’t op at everything. However one hit kill mechanics really do support zerker builds. but ultimately weather a zerker lives to deal damage is based on party support or there own individual skill.

And to the zerkers who try to tank for the party will just die quickly. I bet you hate crit damage and crit chance are being separated.

So you start off by being a zerkest and then you generalise.

And your argument is stupid ’ O an they don’t retrait to fight bosses they can’t crit’, what about non zerkers? Do they retrait? Correct me if im wrong but you can crit all bosses, its structures you cant crit.

And im actually looking forward to the patch just so things get spiced up a bit.

Raven.3248:

And im actually looking forward to the patch just so things get spiced up a bit.

/sigh
I hope that, one day, people will grasp the fact that the patch won’t change anything other than making efficient runs uh… take 30-60 seconds slower than they are now.
You’re still going to get kicked if you join such a party in soldier gear.
I don’t think much will change in WuWuWu either.
In case someone missed this part, I’ll remind everyone that the patch isn’t going to hit berserker the most. Cavalier, Valkyrie, Celestial, even knight in a way: they’re all getting hit harder, much harder.
Just sayin’.
Since when is slightly reducing damage a way to spice things up? I’ve never heard of it. When I hear “spicing up” I think of new mechanics, new zones, new weaponsets, new skills…If people enjoy doing little damage and hitting hp bags, why isn’t everyone farming HotW?
There, the only thing I look forward is the wardrobe. Yeah, double sigils on 2h weapons is ok; still, it will just be a matter of adding another damage modifier. In brief, nothing. It will make the change to crit damage even more stupid: reduce damage somewhere, increase it somewhere else. A complete joke.
Owell. Do go on.

NoTrigger.8396:

Axelwarrior.9084:

The problem isn’t caused by the stat, it’s caused by the dungeon imbalance.

Currently, Berserker’s is ALWAYS the best solution to everything (well, maybe with rare exceptions, usually being Assassin’s) because we can bypass the difficulty by stacking/skipping etc.

If “exploits” weren’t possible, then we’d need more survivability in dungeons and thus Berserker’s wouldn’t always be the best option.

from this post alone i can say you dont know what you are talking about and you should spend your time to l2p the game instead of writing nonsense.

Do you even know what I’m referring to as exploits? I’d like you to elaborate on why I need to l2p and how my post inspired you to say so.

P.S. By exploits, I mean:

• Doing certain actions (stacking) to prevent enemy attacks. (for example, Spider Queen at AC)
• Stacking on a corner to gather enemies there, taking advantage of their dumb AI and LoS.
• FGS Fiery Rush (This is a bit of a sensitive issue, but I personally consider it an exploit. Though, I understand why some people wouldn’t.)

/desadefacepalm

Oh no, not the spider queen again, I beg you.
E: Lol. Thanks for making my day brighter Lindbro.

Axelwarrior.9084:

Doing certain actions (stacking) to prevent enemy attacks. (for example, Spider Queen at AC)

Go in melee range on the open field, it won’t do the aoe poison on close targets. Stop spreading misinformation.

Stacking on a corner to gather enemies there, taking advantage of their dumb AI and LoS.

LoS works in every game, just unneeded due to tanks.

FGS Fiery Rush (This is a bit of a sensitive issue, but I personally consider it an exploit. Though, I understand why some people wouldn’t.)

The FGS glitch is really questionable, but i think it’s an unintended use of the skill which developers found fun. Any official statment about the behavior of FGS?

Nope, other than the blink trick being fixed with the upcoming patch.

Dalanor.5387:

Go in melee range on the open field, it won’t do the aoe poison on close targets. Stop spreading misinformation.

Doesn’t change anything. You’re still doing certain actions to prevent attacks. It’s just easier when stacking.

LoS works in every game, just unneeded due to tanks.

I don’t remember saying otherwise. Your point? (Though I do recall someone saying that it didn’t work in GW1 and I also doubt you’ve played every game in existence, so it’s invalid anyway.)

The FGS glitch is really questionable, but i think it’s an unintended use of the skill which developers found fun. Any official statment about the behavior of FGS?

I’m not sure about the general use of Fiery Rush against a wall, without a target, but the FR + LF glitch is getting patched, AFAIK. I also think it’s a fun “mechanic”, but I really doubt the developers are OK with its extreme damage.
I’m assuming they’re letting it slide because it’s a big part of the meta and particularly the Elementalist’s role in PvE.

P.S. In case anyone’s taking it personally: I’m not blaming the players in any way. I think the enemy AI needs improvement.

So tell us more about how ranging prevents her from using her melee attack, which incidentally applies weakness and 6 bleed stacks. Or Lupicus’ kick/doubleslash of doom.
Or any melee attack for that matter.

Go on, tell us it’s an exploit.

1. Kaiser made a good point in that topic.

2. Indeed, but it’s not a big think, it happens in other games, just don’t bother white knights, because tanks can pack up mobs.

3. If they aren’t ok with the damage, they could reduce it, but nothing happened. Since there is no official statement about the unintended behavior, we can assume more or less FGS works as intended.

If someone finds it “cheap”, their problem, players already has an upper hand due to gear and intelligence against mobs so … yeah, don’t try to find excuses. Nothing personal against you.

Kaiser.8504:

So tell us more about how ranging prevents her from using her melee attack, which incidentally applies weakness and 6 bleed stacks. Or Lupicus’ kick/doubleslash of doom.
Or any melee attack for that matter.

Go on, tell us it’s an exploit.

I don’t understand. Do you think (or wish) this game was designed for players to stand still in one position, at a certain distance from the enemy, never moving or dodging, so they can DPS the enemy while it sits still and uses one kind of attack?

As as I mentioned in my edit, the fact that you can do that is bad enemy design. And players are exploiting that bad design. See how I correctly used that word in bold there?

I don’t accept that developers in GW2 intended for such a boring game, especially considering the awesome mechanics they have implemented.

And, yes, you can stand at a certain distance from the Spider so that she stands in place, misses her web, doesn’t move closer and only throws poison fields you can easily dodge. Was that intended? Did they design all her attacks and AI so that players can just trick her into not using them?