Guild Wars 2

Axelwarrior.9084:

Kaiser.8504:

So tell us more about how ranging prevents her from using her melee attack, which incidentally applies weakness and 6 bleed stacks. Or Lupicus’ kick/doubleslash of doom.
Or any melee attack for that matter.

Go on, tell us it’s an exploit.

I don’t understand. Do you think (or wish) this game was designed for players to stand still in one position, at a certain distance from the enemy, never moving or dodging, so they can DPS the enemy while it sits still and uses one kind of attack?

As as I mentioned in my edit, the fact that you can do that is bad enemy design. And players are exploiting that bad design. See how I correctly used that word in bold there?

I don’t accept that developers in GW2 intended for such a boring game, especially considering the awesome mechanics they have implemented.

And, yes, you can stand at a certain distance from the Spider so that she stands in place, misses her web, doesn’t move closer and only throws poison fields you can easily dodge. Was that intended? Did they design all her attacks and AI so that players can just trick her into not using them?

You clearly don’t understand the mechanics of that boss fight. Educate yourself and please stop spreading misinformation.
http://gw2dungeons.net

If you range it (aka easy mode afk pew pew), it punishes you.
If you melee it, it applies weakness (aka less deepz from you) and does hard pressure with bleeds.

That would be less exploity when a tanks holds agro to DPS it without any issue and a healer heals you when you make a mistake, right?

Dalanor.5387:

1. Kaiser made a good point in that topic.

2. Indeed, but it’s not a big think, it happens in other games, just don’t bother white knights, because tanks can pack up mobs.

3. If they aren’t ok with the damage, they could reduce it, but nothing happened. Since there is no official statement about the unintended behavior, we can assume more or less FGS works as intended.

If someone finds it “cheap”, their problem, players already has an upper hand due to gear and intelligence against mobs so … yeah, don’t try to find excuses. Nothing personal against you.

2. Again. Your point? ANet clearly doesn’t want a holy trinity in this game, therefore they don’t want mobs not attacking the players hitting them.

3. Since it’s a sensitive topic, I think there’s no point discussing it. But, since they haven’t said anything about it working as intended, I wouldn’t assume that either.

“Upper hand” because of “gear” and “intelligence”? wut?
By bad enemy design, I’m mainly referring to their lack of reactions and variety in skills. They’re predictable, too.

1. Don’t dodge the first point.

2. You answered yourself. If you want to make sure every mob hits you, thus you can cleave / aoe dps them down, you want to get agro and drag them to a los spot, since you know, you don’t have a tank to pull them together with a threat mechanics.

3. Indeed. Don’t use it if you don’t want it is the easiest solution.

I mean players are already superior to mobs, due to intelligence (players aren’t that stupid as AI) and gear (players can adapt to encounters, finding the least resistance aka meta builds).
That what PvE is in every MMO. Scripted, predictable and has less variety.

Too many predictable attacks. We need more unavoidable damage. So people would have to bring healers. And tanks.

Dalanor.5387:

Axelwarrior.9084:

Kaiser.8504:

So tell us more about how ranging prevents her from using her melee attack, which incidentally applies weakness and 6 bleed stacks. Or Lupicus’ kick/doubleslash of doom.
Or any melee attack for that matter.

Go on, tell us it’s an exploit.

I don’t understand. Do you think (or wish) this game was designed for players to stand still in one position, at a certain distance from the enemy, never moving or dodging, so they can DPS the enemy while it sits still and uses one kind of attack?

As as I mentioned in my edit, the fact that you can do that is bad enemy design. And players are exploiting that bad design. See how I correctly used that word in bold there?

I don’t accept that developers in GW2 intended for such a boring game, especially considering the awesome mechanics they have implemented.

And, yes, you can stand at a certain distance from the Spider so that she stands in place, misses her web, doesn’t move closer and only throws poison fields you can easily dodge. Was that intended? Did they design all her attacks and AI so that players can just trick her into not using them?

You clearly don’t understand the mechanics of that boss fight. Educate yourself and please stop spreading misinformation.
http://gw2dungeons.net

If you range it (aka easy mode afk pew pew), it punishes you.
If you melee it, it applies weakness (aka less deepz from you) and does hard pressure with bleeds.

That would be less exploity when a tanks holds agro to DPS it without any issue and a healer heals you when you make a mistake, right?

I CLEARLY said that it DOESN’T PUNISH you when you range it at a certain distance. Did you not read, or just didn’t get that part?

At least when you have a DPS/tank/healer that each commit to their role, you don’t have to trick enemies into not attacking you or into grouping up so you can clean them up easily and without a threat.
When you do have them, you’re accepting the boss’s mechanics and you find ways to counter them/overcome them by replacing some DPS.

What do you think it the most logical approach? Tricking enemies and avoiding most of their mechanics, or using a right combination and strategy to beat them fair and square?

Admittedly, the tank/DPS/healer trinity is brainless skill spamming in most cases. That’s why GW2 doesn’t need it. However, that doesn’t change anything. Normally, you should still use the right strategy and not just bring Zerker to DPS everything down while they can’t do any significant damage to you because you’re stacking.
I agree that, when it comes to skillful, organized groups, max DPS would often be ideal, since they could burst enemies down effectively without exploits while dodging enemy attacks.

noobgood.8762:

Too many predictable attacks. We need more unavoidable damage. So people would have to bring healers. And tanks.

I’m not sure that supposed to be sarcasm or not …

Dalanor.5387:

noobgood.8762:

Too many predictable attacks. We need more unavoidable damage. So people would have to bring healers. And tanks.

I’m not sure that supposed to be sarcasm or not …

Take a guess.
E: By the way, can we direct the topic to something else that isn’t the spider queen, for the 100th time? It’s sooo boring.
What about… abomination, arah p2. Is meleeing it and preventing it from using the ranged 1hit-ko rock an exploit? Let’s hear.

Dalanor.5387:

1. Don’t dodge the first point.

2. You answered yourself. If you want to make sure every mob hits you, thus you can cleave / aoe dps them down, you want to get agro and drag them to a los spot, since you know, you don’t have a tank to pull them together with a threat mechanics.

3. Indeed. Don’t use it if you don’t want it is the easiest solution.

I mean players are already superior to mobs, due to intelligence (players aren’t that stupid as AI) and gear (players can adapt to encounters, finding the least resistance aka meta builds).
That what PvE is in every MMO. Scripted, predictable and has less variety.

1. I didn’t, I replied to Kaiser, since you passed the ball to him.

2. …Or skillfully kill them while dodging their attacks or using CC to get them where you want? Clearly, mobs shouldn’t just LET you gather them in one place so you can get done with them quicker. That’s the whole point. They need to be smarter.

Obviously players are always gonna be smarter than AI, but it’s ridiculous at this point. The enemies are not adapting or reacting to the player’s strategy or skills, making them way too predictable.
As mentioned in my first post, I don’t have a particular problem with meta builds. I just think it’s boring to have one acceptable kind of stat comb. If conditions were on par with power in PvE, I would be happy.

Why would you just accept that? That’s why I’m trying to persuade you into my way of thinking. It’s more fun imagining things this way, trust me.

I’d love to keep discussing another time, people, but I have to go. I hope this thread doesn’t die before I come back.

EDIT: Just noticed your post, deSade. Read everything I wrote in other posts above. It doesn’t just apply to Spider Queen.

Honestly, you can use a tank in this game, but it doesn’t make the encounter easier or faster necessarily.

I’ve seen that used on the last boss in HotW p1. It doesn’t make the encounter more interesting, though.

Or like you can have that one person ranging the Wurm in TA. How is that more fun seriously

xallever.1874:

Honestly, you can use a tank in this game, but it doesn’t make the encounter easier or faster necessarily.

There are some places (fractals especially) where being a tank is far more advantagous then being a zerker.

Tim.6450:

xallever.1874:

Honestly, you can use a tank in this game, but it doesn’t make the encounter easier or faster necessarily.

There are some places (fractals especially) where being a tank is far more advantagous then being a zerker.

Like the Snowblind one? I don’t think Obal had to change his gear there.

Axelwarrior.9084:

At least when you have a DPS/tank/healer that each commit to their role, you don’t have to trick enemies into not attacking you or into grouping up so you can clean them up easily and without a threat.

You don’t have to, but you still should because it’s faster to AoE down enemies than it is to single target them individually. It’s also not “without a threat”, if your party is grouped up as well, then that also means they can be AoE’d down by the enemy as well. It’s all about effeciency.

What do you think it the most logical approach? Tricking enemies and avoiding most of their mechanics, or using a right combination and strategy to beat them fair and square?

Tricking enemies is used in many MMOs, they are usually creative strategies that can make a fight easier in some ways, harder in other ways. A term for it is “creative use of game mechanics.”

Admittedly, the tank/DPS/healer trinity is brainless skill spamming in most cases

This is definitely not true in high end PvE in other MMOs.

anabasis.7346:

Axelwarrior.9084:

The problem isn’t caused by the stat, it’s caused by the dungeon imbalance.

P.S. By exploits, I mean:

• Doing certain actions (stacking) to prevent enemy attacks. (for example, Spider Queen at AC)

So if stacking prevents the spider queen from attacking you, why don’t you just record yourself stading still in the corner? According to your logic you should be able to survive there forever because you are not taking any damage due to the spider being unable to attack you.
Oh wait! The anti-stacking and anti-zerker crowd have never ever given any videos that support their statements.

Btw, you still have to answer the question about meleeing the risen abomination in arah.

Clerics OP and promotes unskilled gameplay. Oh the irony …
I still love this video. =]

xallever.1874:

Like the Snowblind one? I don’t think Obal had to change his gear there.

Just because a player doesn’t change it’s gear doesn’t mean that the build is edually good in that situation.

Tim.6450:

xallever.1874:

Like the Snowblind one? I don’t think Obal had to change his gear there.

Just because a player doesn’t change it’s gear doesn’t mean that the build is edually good in that situation.

How does that work?

If he didn’t need to add any toughness or vitality, how do you argue that it would’ve been better that he used some?

xallever.1874:

How does that work?

If he didn’t need to add any toughness or vitality, how do you argue that it would’ve been better that he used some?

If he did add vitality or toughness, he could have used less dodges/heals/blocks/… and used more attacks and finished the fractal faster.

More vitality / toughness → less offensive stat → less damage → slower killing times.

Dalanor.5387:

More vitality / toughness -> less offensive stat -> less damage -> slower killing times.

correct but only if you can crit. If you can’t then you can take soldier with equal damage.

You can crit the ice elemental adds

Tim.6450:

xallever.1874:

How does that work?

If he didn’t need to add any toughness or vitality, how do you argue that it would’ve been better that he used some?

If he did add vitality or toughness, he could have used less dodges/heals/blocks/… and used more attacks and finished the fractal faster.

Uh, I’m talking about this part 0:39+

Would you care to provide us with a specific case where using PVT/Cleric’s gear would speed up an encounter because less dodges/heals/blocks are being used?

If you’re talking about people wiping so many times because they’re on zerk gear, then the answer would be, of course.

We’re not talking about whether zerk gear results in the fastest clear every single time in all situations. We’re talking about how it’s the most optimum gear to use if used accordingly, backed with coordination, strategies and the skills accordingly.

Axelwarrior, the point of the thread is, however, why are “Zerkers” hated? I say that they aren’t really hated, but what’s hate-worthy is the arrogance towards non-“zerkers”, which in turn encourages the “hate” towards “zerk”.

Gear should have no relation to personal character. One could be a player with Soldier’s and not using “exploits” and still be as much of a jerk than a bored speedrunner bully who complains about gear and builds and only plays for gold per hour. On the same token, there ARE many nice players who speedrun on full “zerk” gear, do the so-called “exploits” but will never call you an idiot for playing whatever way you want. Hating on zerkers is just misplaced bias and generalizations against a group of people, much as the all-too-common hate on “casuals” for refusing to go meta.

Finally, to be honest the Spider melee thing is not an exploit (I do not mean to offend you.) It may come off as one, but if you study the specifics, it’s just simpler to stack on top of it (and yes, I know killing it the other way can be fun, but it does take more time and is less failproof.)

Stacking is a result of how the AI works in this game. It’s not an exploit, as much as I wish it was less common, for variety’s sake. You could choose not to stack if you want to as well-just make your groups with that note attached, to give players a fair notice.

I think the “fair” exploits in this game are those where you can attack the enemy and they can’t attack you back, but those are rare, though noteworthy. Spider/Alpha/the others can still attack while being stacked on, and sometimes the stack can fail and be wiped if sufficiently unorganized and/or ignorant of the encounter, so it’s not just 100% “EZ mode, with no dodges”-just simpler and faster, especially for those who want to do things fast (and yes, you do need to dodge for many of them.)

Axelwarrior.9084:

Kaiser.8504:

So tell us more about how ranging prevents her from using her melee attack, which incidentally applies weakness and 6 bleed stacks. Or Lupicus’ kick/doubleslash of doom.
Or any melee attack for that matter.

Go on, tell us it’s an exploit.

I don’t understand. Do you think (or wish) this game was designed for players to stand still in one position, at a certain distance from the enemy, never moving or dodging, so they can DPS the enemy while it sits still and uses one kind of attack?

As as I mentioned in my edit, the fact that you can do that is bad enemy design. And players are exploiting that bad design. See how I correctly used that word in bold there?

I don’t accept that developers in GW2 intended for such a boring game, especially considering the awesome mechanics they have implemented.

And, yes, you can stand at a certain distance from the Spider so that she stands in place, misses her web, doesn’t move closer and only throws poison fields you can easily dodge. Was that intended? Did they design all her attacks and AI so that players can just trick her into not using them?

So basically you think that rendering a monster unable to use an attack is exploiting in a game that revolves around not taking damage. You want to get hit. Well, I have news for you, brother: you can. Stacking on the Spider Queen makes it no less dangerous when it comes to avoiding her attacks. I have yet to see a single pug who stacks and dodges her melee attack.

Make your own anti-stacking group if you don’t want to have to deal with all this. And for the record, there hasn’t been an official stance on stacking since Hrouda left.

Still trying to define ‘fun’ for us, I see. Because we’re uninteresting exploiters.

Yes, I am Kaiser.

Kaiser.8504:

Axelwarrior.9084:

Kaiser.8504:

So tell us more about how ranging prevents her from using her melee attack, which incidentally applies weakness and 6 bleed stacks. Or Lupicus’ kick/doubleslash of doom.
Or any melee attack for that matter.

Go on, tell us it’s an exploit.

I don’t understand. Do you think (or wish) this game was designed for players to stand still in one position, at a certain distance from the enemy, never moving or dodging, so they can DPS the enemy while it sits still and uses one kind of attack?

As as I mentioned in my edit, the fact that you can do that is bad enemy design. And players are exploiting that bad design. See how I correctly used that word in bold there?

I don’t accept that developers in GW2 intended for such a boring game, especially considering the awesome mechanics they have implemented.

And, yes, you can stand at a certain distance from the Spider so that she stands in place, misses her web, doesn’t move closer and only throws poison fields you can easily dodge. Was that intended? Did they design all her attacks and AI so that players can just trick her into not using them?

So basically you think that rendering a monster unable to use an attack is exploiting in a game that revolves around not taking damage. You want to get hit. Well, I have news for you, brother: you can. Stacking on the Spider Queen makes it no less dangerous when it comes to avoiding her attacks. I have yet to see a single pug who stacks and dodges her melee attack.

I’ve seen pugs lack the damage to kill her and get obliterated.

Oh right, I forgot about the abysmal wipes too.

Still trying to figure out if they have more examples of exploited bosses other than the queen.

Oh boy, so much stuff to reply to.

@ deSade: I don’t have enough experience with that fight to comment on it specifically (by that I mean that I’ve only done it a few times and only without stacking etc), but I’m guessing the same things apply.

@ TurtleDragon: I realize you’ve missed the entire point. When you stack to gather enemies in one spot, at melee range, it’s so that they DON’T use their AoE and your AoE hits everything (At least in the case of the Spider Queen). Read my previous posts.
I don’t see how staying still in a corner and oversimplifying a fight is creative. Care to elaborate?

@ Anabasis: I never said it prevents her from attacking at all, only said it prevents her from using certain attacks, in this case her AoE. Read more carefully, please. I don’t have time to repeat myself constantly.

@ Star Ace: I’ve clearly stated that I don’t blame the players or the Berserker’s stat combo, but the game design.

@ Kaiser: No, I want to avoid getting hit with my abilities, not because the meta forces me to stack. Or, if I can’t avoid getting hit, I should be encouraged to compensate by not going glasscannon and not by tricking the enemy instead.
Whether the PuGs you’ve seen don’t dodge her melee attack because they can’t (or don’t have to) has nothing to do with this discussion.
You’ll be glad to know I’m already in a friendly guild and we do dungeons (almost) regularly, without stacking or skipping. Unfortunately, I still have to PuG most of the time.

Phew, that was all. This is getting tiresome.

@Axelwarrior

Do you range exploit Lupi to avoid one of his attacks or kill him in melee at phase 1?

You can have all you party members in melee but not stacked during our beloved-spider-queen-example fight and she still won’t use her AoE.

Heck, just go solo. Meeleing her should be forbidden. /s

You can actually fight her in melee range, without stacking in the corner. It’s just that stacking, while legal under the bounds of the game, might seem illegal to you because mobs aren’t programmed to recognize positional changes that you or they do, and you think that they should probably do so.

Axelwarrior.9084:

@ TurtleDragon: I realize you’ve missed the entire point. When you stack to gather enemies in one spot, at melee range, it’s so that they DON’T use their AoE and your AoE hits everything (At least in the case of the Spider Queen). Read my previous posts.
I don’t see how staying still in a corner and oversimplifying a fight is creative. Care to elaborate?

When you stack to gather the spider queen in one spot at melee range, she has two AoEs. 1 is a bite that applies weakness (also a giant DPS loss if not cleansed), and a channelled breath attack that applies immobilize and bleeds. I might have mixed up the conditions, but the point is that you are also at risk of being AoE’d down by the boss..
It’s not oversimplifying it if it has different mechanics to deal with, especially when they can easily kill bad groups.

This case is in particular isn’t a “creative use of game mechanics”, but it’s also not an exploit. An example for the former is using tomes, pets or summons to body block Old Tom’s poison bolts.a But the whole point of mentioning that was that players trick enemies or use creative tactics in trinity MMOs as well.

xallever.1874:

Uh, I’m talking about this part 0:39+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92asaE6NDsY

Would you care to provide us with a specific case where using PVT/Cleric’s gear would speed up an encounter because less dodges/heals/blocks are being used?

If you’re talking about people wiping so many times because they’re on zerk gear, then the answer would be, of course.

We’re not talking about whether zerk gear results in the fastest clear every single time in all situations. We’re talking about how it’s the most optimum gear to use if used accordingly, backed with coordination, strategies and the skills accordingly.

ty for the video but looking at the video , I can see that they spent a lot of time killing the mobs in the elemental part. If they were wearing pvt then maybe they didn’t need to kill all those mobs and could just attack the elemental. Since the elemental cannot be crit you will do equal damage to the elemental.

An experience where I personally saw improvement was in the may trin fractal where we could facetank her so that she was always inside a blue circle.

I would love to see a facetanking video from the snow fractal at lvl49/50.

PVT won’t allow you to tank those eles. At least do the content before you try give advice on how to do it.

There are cases where PVT/Knights gear can be used to optimal effect, but that is not one of them.

This entire thread is stupid and I don’t know why it just doesn’t get locked. People hate ‘zerkers’ because the stereotypical pug zerker is toxic and terrible. Once you’ve got a bad image, it is very easy to generalize and view all zerkers in that light. It is the exact same for non-zerkers. Not all people who don’t wear zerker are ‘play how you want carebear no-dodgers’; but the extreme cases are, so again it is very easy to generalize.

Axelwarrior.9084:

Oh boy, so much stuff to reply to.

@ deSade: I don’t have enough experience with that fight to comment on it specifically (by that I mean that I’ve only done it a few times and only without stacking etc), but I’m guessing the same things apply.

You’re guessing? It seems to me like you have tons of experience in game design and overall dungeons in all previous mmo; you seem to claim to know what is unintended by anet and what isn’t, what is an exploit and what isn’t. After all, if all other games don’t include stacking and los’ing and bosses using attacks based on distance, then it must be unintended. Just wondering, isn’t it that maybe you were guessing with the other example too?
Alright, nevermind. Let’s hear. More examples.
What about Lupicus, phase 1, 2 and 3? Mind sharing your observations and results on that fight with us?
Or… hm… The archers in the TA room, f-f. Is their behaviour specifically unintended by anet, therefore is ranging at a certain distance an exploit?

Why people hate zerkers? Well it’s their attitude plain and simple-not to mention that the more vocal ones have only a passing understanding of what they’re talking about. They want people to play EXACTLY how they play and actually become really really offensive the moment people don’t comply. How in the world can you honestly expect people to not be sickened by such attitudes?

An example? Was in coe not too long ago-2 thieves (one of them being myself), a guardian, engi and something else idk. They nearly wiped on the first encounter, they nearly wiped on the second encounter, quite a few got downed on the champ wolves, wiped on 1st alpha, a couple went down repeatedly at the golem boss-the engi in particular NEVER dodged the purple laser so I was always cleaning him off the ground. One of these godsends aggroed the champ abomination and all ran out almost immediately after I case SR…needless to say we died at the 2nd alpha. And died again and again and again…one point only myself and the other thief were alive (2nd alpha) I was near the boss, he was encased in crystal….idk somewhere…then he said the only died because there wasnt’ enough dps to break the crystal. With 3 people dead….and him being God knows where (logic flows strongly through this one). Then of course you have the ‘is anyone even wearing zerkers?’….I left at that point, disabled whispers because I know their type-but one got through. ‘We beat alpha without you-seems you were holding us back’-from the thief. For the record, only that thief and a guardian were zerker. I was assassin trinket, valkyrie armor, zerker weapons (assassin for trinket because zerker is just too expensive and doesn’t offer enough to justify the cost), trait distribution is 25/30/0/0/15 with the fury+dmg traits and sigil of night (didn’t have the potion up) -sure it’s not optimal but still able to pump out nice damage. So yes, that was me….and because I had the audacity to say ‘hey, stop trying to force everyone to play the way you saw someone else play and copied’ I’m being touted as the reason we failed (I refer to the numerous floor kissing the majority of the party did leading up to and including 2nd alpha because most didn’t know how to dodge apparently) and apparently do less dmg than the non-zerker engineer who stuck with rifle? I’ve never gotten into engi, but if I recall aren’t their kits capable of outputting good damage-not their rifle?

That’s what most players experience from ‘zerkers’-the vocal ones anyway. Unable to assess/adapt to the situation, childish, offensive and ready to lay blame-oh and don’t forget trying to force everyone to play exactly how they play. I’m not saying everyone should run clerics and build a healbot-far from it, whenever people ask for advice I always tell them to focus on damage and use dodging, positioning and skills to mitigate damage and explain why the more passive/defensive set ups don’t work too well in pve. But I do not berate others for not playing exactly how I play to save 10s from a boss, nor do I bring a super squishy glass cannon to a pug where who knows what you’ll get (I’m starting to respect those who at least say ‘zerker only’ now) and unless it’s something grossly sup-optimal (like a mesmer/ranger using gs/lb at point blank range) I shut the hell up and let them play. The self proclaimed pro zerks do the exact opposite of all these things and as a result quite a few people find them…abrasive.

In closing, I would like to remind you that I said two players ran zerks-a guardian and the other thief, yet only one of them would draw the ire of other players. The way I see it the hate towards zerk is similar to the hate toward rangers-the bearbows cause people to loathe all rangers and the vocal dictator zerkers cause people to hate all zerks even though there’s nothing wrong with running a zerk set and there are non-abrasive people who do.

deSade.9437:

Axelwarrior.9084:

Oh boy, so much stuff to reply to.

@ deSade: I don’t have enough experience with that fight to comment on it specifically (by that I mean that I’ve only done it a few times and only without stacking etc), but I’m guessing the same things apply.

You’re guessing? It seems to me like you have tons of experience in game design and overall dungeons in all previous mmo; you seem to claim to know what is unintended by anet and what isn’t, what is an exploit and what isn’t. After all, if all other games don’t include stacking and los’ing and bosses using attacks based on distance, then it must be unintended. Just wondering, isn’t it that maybe you were guessing with the other example too?
Alright, nevermind. Let’s hear. More examples.
What about Lupicus, phase 1, 2 and 3? Mind sharing your observations and results on that fight with us?
Or… hm… The archers in the TA room, f-f. Is their behaviour specifically unintended by anet, therefore is ranging at a certain distance an exploit?

I’m “guessing” because the things I’ve mentioned apply to how the game works in general and not the specific enemy. I wouldn’t know how the abomination reacts to stacking, so I can’t talk about it specifically.
Your sarcasm won’t work on me. It only makes me less willing to take you seriously and continue this conversation.
I’d like you to be more specific with your examples.
But while we’re mentioning examples, do you mind telling me YOUR take on Arah’s P1 ooze? Specifically, the fact that you can conveniently stack on a specific coral, making the boss unable to attack you while you can simply pound away with absolutely no threats.

TurtleDragon.3108:

When you stack to gather the spider queen in one spot at melee range, she has two AoEs. 1 is a bite that applies weakness (also a giant DPS loss if not cleansed), and a channelled breath attack that applies immobilize and bleeds. I might have mixed up the conditions, but the point is that you are also at risk of being AoE’d down by the boss..
It’s not oversimplifying it if it has different mechanics to deal with, especially when they can easily kill bad groups.

This case is in particular isn’t a “creative use of game mechanics”, but it’s also not an exploit. An example for the former is using tomes, pets or summons to body block Old Tom’s poison bolts.a But the whole point of mentioning that was that players trick enemies or use creative tactics in trinity MMOs as well.

I’m asking you which one of the examples I mentioned, which I consider exploits, are creative. Obviously, I’m not denying that creative strategies exist, nor did I ever say that the one at Old Tom is an exploit. It’s not interfering with the boss in any way, you’re using your own abilities to protect yourself.

About the spider queen, you can indeed die while stacked, but that doesn’t change anything. You’re still basically crippling her damage output and she can’t do anything to react to it. The players shouldn’t be the ones controlling the boss and its attacks simply by stacking.

Nobody is stupid or deluded enough to think that the coral in Arah P1 is not an exploit.

The ooze has nothing to do with stacking. Thats just a safe spot. Using a safe spot is exploiting. All the other examples are different.

All the others are simply stack spots so players can burn the boss faster with fgs/ww. There is no exploiting of mechanics because those bosses are designed to only use certain attacks in melee and certain attacks when ranged. Most bosses work like this. By your logic no matter what you do you are exploiting because you will bypass either a ranged or melee attack at all times. When in reality its how the bosses are designed and how they are supposed to work.

Spoj The Second.7680:

The ooze has nothing to do with stacking. Thats just a safe spot. Using a safe spot is exploiting. All the other examples are different.

All the others are simply stack spots so players can burn the boss faster with fgs/ww. There is no exploiting of mechanics because those bosses are designed to only use certain attacks in melee and certain attacks when ranged. Most bosses work like this. By your logic no matter what you do you are exploiting because you will bypass either a ranged or melee attack at all times. When in reality its how the bosses are designed and how they are supposed to work.

Your point has already been raised and answered.

So you agree with us then?

Spoj The Second.7680:

So you agree with us then?

I meant someone already made that point and I already answered to him.

I know and im saying that because your response completely ignored the point that thats how those bosses are designed and how they are supposed to work.

Spoj The Second.7680:

I know and im saying that because your response completely ignored the point that thats how those bosses are designed and how they are supposed to work.

and how they should work.

The fact that bosses use different attacks depending on its range is the way it should be.
That’s like a Ranger using a longbow in melee range, completely ineffective.

And there is no “fix” to LoS’ing mobs, every possible fix would have a flaw just as “bad”.

I’m just trying to figure out what you think ISN’T an exploit. As for skipping, why isn’t it ok? In video games and real life combat, if you don’t want to fight an enemy combatant, you move around him. This is my first mmo, so maybe you can explain this whole “anti-skip/no stack” argument for me. Stacking is a strategy that makes it easier to survive in this game, the original mmo (d&d) and in real life (ancient example: phalanx formation. Squad based combat is regularly used in the army. Dear jeebus, you get your rear end chewed in bct if you’re more than a few feet away from your battle buddy during training).

If you want to play a certain way, great. Just because you want to play this way, however, doesn’t mean that the game wasn’t meant to be played this way, however, or give you right to try to make others play the way you do.

Axelwarrior.9084:

I’m asking you which one of the examples I mentioned, which I consider exploits, are creative. Obviously, I’m not denying that creative strategies exist, nor did I ever say that the one at Old Tom is an exploit. It’s not interfering with the boss in any way, you’re using your own abilities to protect yourself.

About the spider queen, you can indeed die while stacked, but that doesn’t change anything. You’re still basically crippling her damage output and she can’t do anything to react to it. The players shouldn’t be the ones controlling the boss and its attacks simply by stacking.

The only boss you keep mentioning is spider queen, and maybe ooze (that one is a safe spot exploit). Old Tom was just an example of creative strats, I never said you thought it was an exploit. Might not have been the best example, but I can name trick enemies into not attacking you strats in trinity MMOs (Which you said people don’t need to do in it). The immobilze strat for Tar in Arah p1 is pretty creative and is within bounds of the boss’ mechanics.

It does change things because you said we don’t get AoE’d while stacked

When you stack to gather enemies in one spot, at melee range, it’s so that they DON’T use their AoE and your AoE hits everything

she can’t do anything to react to it

She does react by using a different move set, at this point you’re asking for improved AI which is too much work to implement in this game.As of right now, the boss is working as intended with how they choose what moves to use.

Sooooo you basically have no clue about what they want to do and how most mobs in dungeons work [not even the 3 most relevant attacks of archers in TA, my god]; you’re clueless about the skills they use. At the same time, you claim to know what is unintended [by anet!!!] and an exploit and what isn’t.
Booooring.
And yeah, the fact that you compare stacking on the spider queen with the ooze exploit tells me enough about your “experience” in dungeons and with this game in particular. Nevermind…
I’ll “exploit” this thread…

I just want to add the following:

In a Live-Stream the Devs mentioned that fiery rush against a wall is no exploit but they will keep an eye on it!

Soo…its not an exploit Atleast not as of now!

the reason i avoid most zerker LFG becuase most zerker players (that i enountered) are elitist pricks

this doesnt stop me from having some zerker alt-sets for my characters (even though i like PVT better becuase i feel the room for error is greater, specially on my ele who i feel in full zerker is WAY to squishy for my liking)

honestly i dont care how long it takes as long as it gets done so zerker is more along the lines of “meh, its DPS whatever” for me

edit: oh and people on the forums always acting like its the best ever stat. cutting down some egos, NO its not, its best DPS armor not best for surviving (que the “L2Dodge huehue” elitism crud). its even gone so far that people are making posts about it in the form of a prayer. seriously? im sorry but thats just stupid fanaticism