Guild Wars 2

crosknight.3041:

the reason i avoid most zerker LFG becuase most zerker players (that i enountered) are elitist pricks

this doesnt stop me from having some zerker alt-sets for my characters (even though i like PVT better becuase i feel the room for error is greater, specially on my ele who i feel in full zerker is WAY to squishy for my liking)

honestly i dont care how long it takes as long as it gets done so zerker is more along the lines of “meh, its DPS whatever” for me

Lots of the zerkers are jerks because they simply don’t understand the game or really games as a whole. They can’t see that the Meta is not the “Best build”, It’s the one built to be the best for speed clears. Which if that’s all you care about, sure it’s the best.

But I think many of us working folks like to come home and relax playing a video game. We aren’t looking to spend time optimizing, or looking at efficiency, we’re looking at what can get us through dungeons smoothly and in a way that’s fun. Those aren’t factors in the Meta, while the meta might be fun to play that is not factored in when creating the builds. They are build for speed and speed only, which again can be fun, but it’s simply a set of builds ,stripped down, removing anything that doesn’t promote speed.

That’s why, while honestly I do enjoy going full zerk when I do it, I do hate the term “meta”. It implies that it’s the best, hands down, no arguments, which simply isn’t true. Best is a subjective thing, the current "meta"s are the best if you’re looking for speed clears, which can be fun. But there are many other viable options that fit their situations better.

I know for my group we run a tanky support guard, as it lets everyone make a few extra mistakes and we’re all still ok, while only losing like 10-15% damage. In full zerk we might have a few wipes in our full tour, where with that simple change on one guy we basically can’t wipe lol. So we get stress free runs.

There are plenty of bad builds, not being full zerk doesn’t make a build bad though. It just makes it a build not built for speed runs.

I feel conflicted.

First of all, I want to say that I don’t understand why so many people that I know are taking shots at Axelwarrior. They made it pretty obvious that they weren’t implying that you can avoid being attacked by Spider Queen, yet so many people just assumed otherwise. While he probably shouldn’t have used the word “exploit” as it causes many people to get all defensive and riled up, he makes valid points about how many of the encounters we find in dungeons are really out of date and are easily trivialized by standing still in a corner. Taking advantage of line of sight isn’t a bad thing, but mobs doing nothing to attempt to defend themselves is. I agree with Axel— I’d prefer more engaging group fights in dungeons similarly to what’s found in FotM. Because of this, I tend to solo dungeons so that they aren’t as trivial (though since the patch it seems as if CM TA AC etc are insanely easier now?).

As for me personally and in regards to the topic of the thread being about berserker users, I don’t have fun playing on any game if I hit bullsh__ damage in the combat. In
any game that had a trinity I’d never ever be a healer or a tank or something like that.

A few examples from my own experience:
-Warlock mage > Conjurer mage, Barbarian > Knight in Regnum Online when I tried that.
-Wizard was way WAY more fun than Priest or Sorcerer for Realm of the Mad God, and this was a permadeath game too lol.
-Being the hybrid when mage bank pking on Runescape was way WAY more fun than being the designated tber (teleblocker) that would typically just scout worlds and cast teleblock before the rest of the team logged in.

If I’m not on the full-out offensive, I’m bored. The best defensive strategy for me has always been the best offense so I knew coming into GW2 when reading though the different classes that “Warrior” seemed to suit my playstyle the most, along with Elementalist.

Here are the descriptions that I remember reading when deciding at first:

“Warriors are masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle. Adrenaline fuels their offensive power—the longer warriors stay in a fight, the more dangerous they become.”

“Elementalists are multi-faceted spellcasters that channel elemental forces, making fire, air, earth, and water do their bidding. What they lack in physical toughness, they make up in versatility and the ability to inflict massive damage in a single attack.

Compare those descriptions to ones like this, for example:

“Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.”

It’s little things like this that I used to determine what would be most likely to please me. I feel like I’m beginning to ramble a bit too much, better stop here.

I was really to lazy to read all your replies. I unterstand that 99% of all Guild Wars 2 Players are not able to play 100% with berserker gear and survive. It´s a pity, but…..
Seriously, learn to play, with skilled movement an the use of some DODGES (default setting push “V”) i see no problem here.

2 kind of players with zerker set in dungeon :

1) die very quickly = bad players.
2) knows how to survive = good players.

most of the time i meet bad players.

azizul.8469:

2 kind of players with zerker set in dungeon :

1) die very quickly = bad players.
2) knows how to survive = good players.

most of the time i meet bad players.

But running non zerk doesn’t change this anyways. Bad will still be bad and good will still be good. Then again if someone is good why wouldn’t they run better gear (zerk), utilities, or traits.

CuRtoKy.8576:

But running non zerk doesn’t change this anyways. Bad will still be bad and good will still be good. Then again if someone is good why wouldn’t they run better gear (zerk), utilities, or traits.

There are many good players out there not using zerker. The reason they don’t use it is because it doesn’t compliment their traits. If you are a condition build or survival type of build, why use zerker?

As you say, bad players will be bad and good players will be good. As long as everyone has fun playing, everyone is a winner in their own right.

Snuckerpooks.2019:

CuRtoKy.8576:

But running non zerk doesn’t change this anyways. Bad will still be bad and good will still be good. Then again if someone is good why wouldn’t they run better gear (zerk), utilities, or traits.

There are many good players out there not using zerker. The reason they don’t use it is because it doesn’t compliment their traits. If you are a condition build or survival type of build, why use zerker?

As you say, bad players will be bad and good players will be good. As long as everyone has fun playing, everyone is a winner in their own right.

Because why do you need toughness or vitality to survive when active defenses are significantly better. And for a good player wouldn’t they use active defenses better. So in that case why do you need to build toughness or vitality if you can dodge well, time aegis and evades well.

You use zerker because the stats power, precision, ferocity is the best in PvE. Toughness and Vitality aren’t good simply because active defense > passive defense. Condition Damage isn’t good in PvE for other reasons like how often you can apply max condis for max dps and take out threats (condi bombs) and how useful it is if your condi skills are on CD. Zerk has AA at the very least that takes full advantage. Can you say the same with condis? Healing power isn’t good for other reasons. So that is why Zerk is good.

Is 1 person’s fun > than 4 people’s. Instead of saying fun I say bring whatever is best for a team and that means traits, utilities, and stats. At the end of the day people say zerk is only dps but look at say Obal’s guardian build it has a lot of support in it too and if you compare that to say AH you see an AH build is very lacking in both offense and support.

When I feel bored I simply change traits to something different and the gameplay is completely different. You still have zerker gear but the gameplay, utilities, weapons and overall tactics is completely different. Why can’t people understand that swapping gear changes absolutely nothing?

Go 0/0/5/6/3 or something like that for a warrior for instance and now you can support your team as well as get those controls. There’s virtually no difference if you play this build with zerker or with settlers.

CuRtoKy.8576:

Because why do you need toughness or vitality to survive when active defenses are significantly better. And for a good player wouldn’t they use active defenses better. So in that case why do you need to build toughness or vitality if you can dodge well, time aegis and evades well.
You use zerker because the stats power, precision, ferocity is the best in PvE. Toughness and Vitality aren’t good simply because active defense > passive defense. Condition Damage isn’t good in PvE for other reasons like how often you can apply max condis for max dps and take out threats (condi bombs) and how useful it is if your condi skills are on CD. Zerk has AA at the very least that takes full advantage. Can you say the same with condis? Healing power isn’t good for other reasons. So that is why Zerk is good.
Is 1 person’s fun > than 4 people’s. Instead of saying fun I say bring whatever is best for a team and that means traits, utilities, and stats. At the end of the day people say zerk is only dps but look at say Obal’s guardian build it has a lot of support in it too and if you compare that to say AH you see an AH build is very lacking in both offense and support.

But why is there this need to “take it to the max?” Why should the rule of thumb be zerker is best for dps. If someone enjoys playing a condition build, zerker just doesn’t compliment the traits.

Even IF the person is using conditions, is he really making the run less fun for the other 4? IF someone is using P/V/T gear, is he really a rainy cloud in the parties instance?

With relation to changing traits, there isn’t always that luxury with LFG. The best you can do is swap out weps and skills once you get there and hope for the best. There is much more group synergy with a guild group.

Snuckerpooks.2019:

CuRtoKy.8576:

Because why do you need toughness or vitality to survive when active defenses are significantly better. And for a good player wouldn’t they use active defenses better. So in that case why do you need to build toughness or vitality if you can dodge well, time aegis and evades well.
You use zerker because the stats power, precision, ferocity is the best in PvE. Toughness and Vitality aren’t good simply because active defense > passive defense. Condition Damage isn’t good in PvE for other reasons like how often you can apply max condis for max dps and take out threats (condi bombs) and how useful it is if your condi skills are on CD. Zerk has AA at the very least that takes full advantage. Can you say the same with condis? Healing power isn’t good for other reasons. So that is why Zerk is good.
Is 1 person’s fun > than 4 people’s. Instead of saying fun I say bring whatever is best for a team and that means traits, utilities, and stats. At the end of the day people say zerk is only dps but look at say Obal’s guardian build it has a lot of support in it too and if you compare that to say AH you see an AH build is very lacking in both offense and support.

But why is there this need to “take it to the max?” Why should the rule of thumb be zerker is best for dps. If someone enjoys playing a condition build, zerker just doesn’t compliment the traits.

Even IF the person is using conditions, is he really making the run less fun for the other 4? IF someone is using P/V/T gear, is he really a rainy cloud in the parties instance?

With relation to changing traits, there isn’t always that luxury with LFG. The best you can do is swap out weps and skills once you get there and hope for the best. There is much more group synergy with a guild group.

Many people said it already but there is 2 kinds of Berzerker people.

I personally don’t care what gear people are running when I PuG (so do a lot of good player) what I do care is, what kind of utilities people bring, what kind of weapons they use. When a Necro fear the badly stacked mob (they didn’t stack because he was ranging) I care a lot. When the guardian doesn’t bring Wall of Reflection in CoE at the beginning, I care, when the ranger using frost spirit and Spotter at 1200 range while the rest of the party melee, I care. That list goes on forever.

I much rather have a player that know what to use and when to use it with Dire gear, than someone who doesn’t know using Berzerker.

I think the problem right now is that people associate Berzerker with good player. They expect people to be aware of the “meta” and know how to survive if they are using Berzerker.

haviz.1340:

When I feel bored I simply change traits to something different and the gameplay is completely different. You still have zerker gear but the gameplay, utilities, weapons and overall tactics is completely different. Why can’t people understand that swapping gear changes absolutely nothing?

Go 0/0/5/6/3 or something like that for a warrior for instance and now you can support your team as well as get those controls. There’s virtually no difference if you play this build with zerker or with settlers.

There are many builds that gear can overlap. But if you go from a build where the source of the damage is from crit/power and change to a build where it is through confusion or other conditions, are you carrying stats that don’t compliment the build? There are never wasted stats, but there could be better choices for stats.

Sure, changing traits and weapons changes how you play, but changing the stats makes those builds with different damage sources shine brighter than they normally would have.

Trice.4598:

When a Necro fear the badly stacked mob (they didn’t stack because he was ranging) I care a lot. When the guardian doesn’t bring Wall of Reflection in CoE at the beginning, I care, when the ranger using frost spirit and Spotter at 1200 range while the rest of the party melee, I care. That list goes on forever.

I much rather have a player that know what to use and when to use it with Dire gear, than someone who doesn’t know using Berzerker.

Excellent statement.

Snuckerpooks.2019:

There are many builds that gear can overlap. But if you go from a build where the source of the damage is from crit/power and change to a build where it is through confusion or other conditions, are you carrying stats that don’t compliment the build? There are never wasted stats, but there could be better choices for stats.

Sure, changing traits and weapons changes how you play, but changing the stats makes those builds with different damage sources shine brighter than they normally would have.

Your gear doesn’t compliment your build but the gameplay-wise there’s is a lot of difference. And that’s what people want, right? Different gameplay, not stack&100b.

The problem with zerkers has nothing to do with armour. Its got to do with a bad attitude that has set in.

Why is it so hard for people to see that a mixed group is generally better overall? Not eveyone has the same weaknesses. Everyone can contribute something to off-set anothers weaknesses. Everyone gets their time to shine! Some damge here, some toughness there, some ranged, some melee, some healing, some mitigation…

A Broken Mindset

A broken mindset has set in, in the community. It says,

Damage = skilled play. Fast = skilled play

Ever read the tortoise and the hare? Sometimes its simply smarter to spend maybe a total of 3-4mins longer in the dungeon and do it right, rather than wiping and wiping then blaming everyone else for it.

I have been in many many PuGs where the elitist zerker jerk raged quit, and after they left the group, we went on to complete the dungeon without any hiccups.

A Good Player

A good player is someone who understands thier class throughly, is able to adapt to the NEEDS of HIS TEAM and can contribute more than simple DPS. A good player doesn’t expect to be carried, but does what he can to make it easier on others.

If someone understands that they “aren’t a great” player and comes with something more than zerker gear, aren’t they a good player because they recognise thier own weaknesses and adjust account for them?

Good players are quick to learn and slow to judge.

A Bad Player

A bad player is a player who constantly puts down, rages, blames, creates a threatening atmosphere, belittles or “back seat drives” another player. People don’t want to please this type of player, and simply don’t try very hard after being exposed to this players attitude.

A bad player rarely notices or acknowledges his own mistakes and stuff ups. Frequently points out other peoples mishaps. They have an expectation that others should think and play as they do.

They are slow to learn and quick to judge.

Myst.9182:

Ever read the tortoise and the hare?

So it has come to this.
You’re kinda lacking new ways to get your point across, aren’t you guys.

Well, Myst has some valid points.
Attitude can kill a run, but if you don’t write your advice like a 10 year old kid (lol, xd and such) pugs take it offensive and blame you for everything for the whole run.
Being bad is not gear dependent, indeed BUT …
Mixed groups are better overall? Nope, nope, all of my nope.
If you mix zerker and non-zerker (i mean full pvt/cleric/etc.) it will be a big mess.

Of course, you can mix those players in a party, but a full zerk benefits from the higher damage more, than the facetank ability of a pvt character and vica versa. A pvt group won’t have any benefit if (IF!) the zerker licks the floor and they 4 man it. Get it?

Myst.9182:

Good players are quick to learn and slow to judge.

Ones attitude towards others has no bearing on their skill level.

A good player is someone who learns fast, generally thinks up the next level builds/tactics and is usually going to be the one leading a run. It’s the good players jobs to teach and guide the reliable players, which are essentially the majority of competent players. There are not many good players, there are many reliable players.

I just don’t see any logical connection. If someone has an attitude, is immature and/or has rage issues he’s… a bad player? I don’t get it. It doesn’t make much sense; it does only if you bend your words to your will and distort them as to make “bad player” a synonym for “bad leader” or “person that isn’t likeable and therefore everyone in the team performs worse because of emotional distress”. It’s not about “playing” anymore, if we take a person’s behaviour and use that to judge their skill. Judge, yeah… ironic.

You don’t complete dungeons with good feelings, either. They don’t cut.

good player knows how to survive and not make others have to babysit his kitten in dungeons.

most of the time, when i meet player with zerker set , he whine a lot about how others not rezzing him when he is down. well, if he is wearing a zerker he is suppose to be a pro, right ? how come he went down so fast ?

azizul.8469:

good player knows how to survive and not make others have to babysit his kitten in dungeons.

most of the time, when i meet player with zerker set , he whine a lot about how others not rezzing him when he is down. well, if he is wearing a zerker he is suppose to be a pro, right ? how come he went down so fast ?

going glass cannon doesn’t mean you’re a good player, it just means you probably know what the meta is (or have simply been blindly following guides and videos). so no, wearing berserker gear doesn’t = “pro”.

Snuckerpooks.2019:

But why is there this need to “take it to the max?” Why should the rule of thumb be zerker is best for dps. If someone enjoys playing a condition build, zerker just doesn’t compliment the traits.

Even IF the person is using conditions, is he really making the run less fun for the other 4? IF someone is using P/V/T gear, is he really a rainy cloud in the parties instance?

With relation to changing traits, there isn’t always that luxury with LFG. The best you can do is swap out weps and skills once you get there and hope for the best. There is much more group synergy with a guild group.

I think you aren’t understanding my question. I’m saying if a good player can dodge and stuff then what is the point of vitality or toughness?

Myst.9182:

Sometimes its simply smarter to spend maybe a total of 3-4mins longer in the dungeon and do it right, rather than wiping and wiping then blaming everyone else for it.

Myst, the difference between a full zerk party and a non-zerk party is a lot bigger than “a total of 3-4mins longer in the dungeon.” A full-zerk party with complementary builds that coordinates in TeamSpeak will finish 17 dungeon paths in 3hr 45 mins (I do this every night). If it’s not a good night and we wipe a few times, it’ll be between 4 hr and 4hr 15 mins.

Now Myst, tell me, how long would it take a non-zerk, non-meta-build party to finish 17 dungeon paths (Arah 2/3 included in that 17)? … You don’t know? OK, I’ll tell you, since I tried it with both: 1) a non-zerk guild with voice chat; and 2) pugs. It was 6 hrs with the non-zerk guild, 8 hrs with the pugs. That’s 50% and 100% longer than a zerk group, respectively. And btw, yes, I wasted my time doing dungeons with non-zerkers and pugs specifically to provide a case study in why zerk is optimal and a justification for requiring certain gear and builds in guild runs.

Myst.9182:

I have been in many many PuGs where the elitist zerker jerk raged quit, and after they left the group, we went on to complete the dungeon without any hiccups.

Stop using zerk pugs for your examples. They are not representative of the optimal way in which zerker gear should be used. Zerk works best when the entire team is using it and running meta builds, and when tactics are coordinated in TeamSpeak. If you take away that foundational coordination, the efficacy of a single zerk player in a non-zerk, noob-build, no-voicechat pug drops exponentially.

A proper comparison is what I did earlier:
1) Full-zerk, meta-build, voice-chat group: 4 hours for 17 paths
2) Non-zerk, noob-build, voice-chat group: 6 hours for 17 paths
3) Non-zerk, noob-build, non-voice-chat group: 8 hrs for 17 paths

That there shows you both the importance of zerk and the importance of voice-chat.

Myst.9182:

A good player is someone who understands thier class throughly, is able to adapt to the NEEDS of HIS TEAM and can contribute more than simple DPS. A good player doesn’t expect to be carried, but does what he can to make it easier on others

A zerk player DOES make it “easier for others.” He DOES “contribute more than simple DPS.” Why do you think I tell the Guard in my group for SE/TA/CM/HotW to use HG > WoR > Aegis Rotation? Because HG and Aegis rotations increase our DPS by 1000%? No, of course not! Because they are the VERY DEFINITION of “adapting to the NEEDS of HIS TEAM!” The team needs stability, reflects, and aegis – therefore, the Guard provides them. And he does so perfectly well as a full zerk, meta-build Guard.

Us zerkers “play to win,” and we have fun doing it. If you don’t what that means, read this

Finally, I have to quote Cookie for truth:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Myst.9182:

Good players are quick to learn and slow to judge.

Ones attitude towards others has no bearing on their skill level.

A good player is someone who learns fast, generally thinks up the next level builds/tactics and is usually going to be the one leading a run. It’s the good players jobs to teach and guide the reliable players, which are essentially the majority of competent players. There are not many good players, there are many reliable players.

I thought games where for fun, if people like spending their timer perfecting every little thing let them, if they find fun in not doing that, let them.

These threads only make this crap a perpetual motion machine.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Myst.9182:

Good players are quick to learn and slow to judge.

Ones attitude towards others has no bearing on their skill level.

A good player is someone who learns fast, generally thinks up the next level builds/tactics and is usually going to be the one leading a run. It’s the good players jobs to teach and guide the reliable players, which are essentially the majority of competent players. There are not many good players, there are many reliable players.

But “Good” doesn’t necessarily mean “highly skilled” it’s a more general term. I’d have to agree with Myst on this one. If you’re a kitten, no one will think of you as a good player, just someone who’s really skilled at the game, but a kitten.

I want to play with good players, players who are not only highly skilled but patient, good people willing to teach if the people are willing to learn. Granted no one should be expected to teach in a run marked “experienced” or some such thing…

It’s the difference between being that really good player people like, and being that elitist kitten who does speed runs that no one cares about because they’re an elitist kitten =).

And to add, I liked her comment about people running non optimal options. As someone who was a total newb not all that long ago, it takes time to get the timing on a lot of things down. Once you master fights you can go through them unscathed much of the time, but it takes time to master. So I liked that comment because a good player will realize their weaknesses and find an option that can fill that gap, when they find they don’t need it, they’ll be smart enough to change it.

There’s more to being a “Good” player than just being skilled.

Jerus.4350:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Myst.9182:

Good players are quick to learn and slow to judge.

Ones attitude towards others has no bearing on their skill level.

A good player is someone who learns fast, generally thinks up the next level builds/tactics and is usually going to be the one leading a run. It’s the good players jobs to teach and guide the reliable players, which are essentially the majority of competent players. There are not many good players, there are many reliable players.

There’s more to being a “Good” player than just being skilled.

No. If we are talking about someone as a player, it is entirely about their ability to play/manipulate the game. You are talking about whether or not someone is good as a human being. The two are not mutually related.

Khandarus.2738:

I thought games where for fun, if people like spending their timer perfecting every little thing let them, if they find fun in not doing that, let them.

Fun has several different meanings, including, but not limited to:

• enjoyable
• pleasant
• entertaining
• amusing
• lively
• boisterous
• convivial
• merry
• witty
• diverting

Efficiency is fun.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Khandarus.2738:

I thought games where for fun, if people like spending their timer perfecting every little thing let them, if they find fun in not doing that, let them.

Fun has several different meanings, including, but not limited to:

• enjoyable
• pleasant
• entertaining
• amusing
• lively
• boisterous
• convivial
• merry
• witty
• diverting

Efficiency is fun.

Ok, I don’t find speed running a dungeon fun so I don’t do it.

You seem to want to make an argument where there is none to be had, cause I am sure fun is different for everyone.

I was actually agreeing with you. Jerk.

I like speedruns, so I usually ask for zerk gear and XP. If others prefer to run differently, that’s none of my business.

According to my observations, your tankiness and the quality of your defensive support pretty much depend only on your skills and traits, not the stats of your gear. Mobs do a lot of damage and more often than not you cannot tank them nor outheal them (especially since healing power scales so badly); you can evade/block their damage or kill them before they kill you though. Zerker excels in both, which makes it strictly the best option for doing dungeons efficiently (= fast).

I don’t think the fact that I prefer full zerker parties makes me a bad player or a bad person. I enjoy playing with people with similar mindset and knowledge of the game. I don’t mind helping beginners from time to time, but I don’t want to spend my entire time in the game doing that. Oh, and the reason I kick people from dungeons is usually their lack of support (e.g. a guardian not using consecrations or a mesmer with no feedback), not the lack of DPS .

TurtleDragon.3108:

Axelwarrior.9084:

At least when you have a DPS/tank/healer that each commit to their role, you don’t have to trick enemies into not attacking you or into grouping up so you can clean them up easily and without a threat.

You don’t have to, but you still should because it’s faster to AoE down enemies than it is to single target them individually. It’s also not “without a threat”, if your party is grouped up as well, then that also means they can be AoE’d down by the enemy as well. It’s all about effeciency.

What do you think it the most logical approach? Tricking enemies and avoiding most of their mechanics, or using a right combination and strategy to beat them fair and square?

Tricking enemies is used in many MMOs, they are usually creative strategies that can make a fight easier in some ways, harder in other ways. A term for it is “creative use of game mechanics.”

Admittedly, the tank/DPS/healer trinity is brainless skill spamming in most cases

This is definitely not true in high end PvE in other MMOs.

Just asking where do the moss man exploits fall under all this:
-Stand in tree
-stand under bridget
-fight him under water
probably where more
I think anet fixed him but if you did any of these before you took no damage. Wouldn’t this fall under exploit. So saying you are playing the game as it is designed wont really save you. look at people who converted karma to gold selling food and got there acount band. Or people who made snowflake jewelry. What is and what is not an exploit is entirely what anet says it is.

-If you are skilled enough to play zerker you are fine = knowing mechanics and having skills to dodge damage you are probably fine. if you are not then you are just going to drop dead.slight faster then if you had different gear. In a party there is way to optimize design of members to optimize dps and surviability this is infinetly more important than an individuals build. Most people have multiple character I have a berserk ele because with low health you might as well have high damage output.I split builds up across multiple characters and use them as i see fit. The viability of a build is based soly on how you want to play.

Fafnir.5124:

TurtleDragon.3108:

Axelwarrior.9084:

At least when you have a DPS/tank/healer that each commit to their role, you don’t have to trick enemies into not attacking you or into grouping up so you can clean them up easily and without a threat.

You don’t have to, but you still should because it’s faster to AoE down enemies than it is to single target them individually. It’s also not “without a threat”, if your party is grouped up as well, then that also means they can be AoE’d down by the enemy as well. It’s all about effeciency.

What do you think it the most logical approach? Tricking enemies and avoiding most of their mechanics, or using a right combination and strategy to beat them fair and square?

Tricking enemies is used in many MMOs, they are usually creative strategies that can make a fight easier in some ways, harder in other ways. A term for it is “creative use of game mechanics.”

Admittedly, the tank/DPS/healer trinity is brainless skill spamming in most cases

This is definitely not true in high end PvE in other MMOs.

Just asking where do the moss man exploits fall under all this:
-Stand in tree
-stand under bridget
-fight him under water
probably where more
I think anet fixed him but if you did any of these before you took no damage. Wouldn’t this fall under exploit. So saying you are playing the game as it is designed wont really save you. look at people who converted karma to gold selling food and got there acount band. Or people who made snowflake jewelry. What is and what is not an exploit is entirely what anet says it is.

-If you are skilled enough to play zerker you are fine = knowing mechanics and having skills to dodge damage you are probably fine. if you are not then you are just going to drop dead.slight faster then if you had different gear. In a party there is way to optimize design of members to optimize dps and surviability this is infinetly more important than an individuals build. Most people have multiple character I have a berserk ele because with low health you might as well have high damage output.I split builds up across multiple characters and use them as i see fit. The viability of a build is based soly on how you want to play.

Not sure why you’re responding to me, but I agree with most of what you said. No one on this forum is going to argue that glitching Mossman, Simin or the TA champions in the tree aren’t exploits. That’s just silly. Anet also hasn’t exactly been consistent with their definition of their definition of bannable exploits.

There’s a pretty distinct difference between safe spotting, stacking, glitching and using boss/game mechanics to your advantage.

The viability of a build is based soly on how you want to play.

I don’ think viability is the right word for that. If you just want to complete content, anything is viable. Completing content efficiently is a completely different story. I may want to play a Longbow ranger in a speed run, but that doesn’t mean it’s viable or appropriate for that situation. Play how you want only means so much without context, but if the people around you are okay with it, then that’s cool. Don’t force the way you want to play onto other people.

In my old guild, I used to say “Play however you want, just don’t join my groups if you’re not going to play with a meta build.”

Why can’t zerkers play how they want and non-zerkers play how they want?
Water don’t mix with oil.

rainynoble.6531:

Why can’t zerkers play how they want and non-zerkers play how they want?
Water don’t mix with oil.

Because:

See second and third responses on this thread.

CuRtoKy.8576:

I noticed this:
PvE: People want to run PTV even though zerk is better.
WvW: People want to run zerk instead of ptv/tanky dos

I find this funny

What do you mean by “better”?

nelzack.7205:

CuRtoKy.8576:

I noticed this:
PvE: People want to run PTV even though zerk is better.
WvW: People want to run zerk instead of ptv/tanky dos

I find this funny

What do you mean by “better”?

Short answer: http://thesaurus.com/browse/better

Long answer: Because it’s more desirable and efficient considering game mechanics. If someone can time their dodges well enough and use their active defenses properly to make stats such as Vitality and Toughness trivial, that person might as well get rid of them and focus purely on offensive stats.
Now, given that conditions have a limit of 25 stacks and the bizarrely high HP pools most bosses sport, that kind of gear is nowhere near to Berserker gear in terms of damage (Condis are godly in PvP, though).
Healing Power’s usefulness is rendered null if people time their dodges and active defenses, too.

I hope that’s clear enough.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

nelzack.7205:

CuRtoKy.8576:

I noticed this:
PvE: People want to run PTV even though zerk is better.
WvW: People want to run zerk instead of ptv/tanky dos

I find this funny

What do you mean by “better”?

http://thesaurus.com/browse/better

Why is zerker build better?

FenrirSlakt.3692:

nelzack.7205:

CuRtoKy.8576:

I noticed this:
PvE: People want to run PTV even though zerk is better.
WvW: People want to run zerk instead of ptv/tanky dos

I find this funny

What do you mean by “better”?

Short answer: http://thesaurus.com/browse/better

Long answer: Because it’s more desirable and efficient considering game mechanics. If someone can time their dodges well enough and use their active defenses properly to make stats such as Vitality and Toughness trivial, that person might as well get rid of them and focus purely on offensive stats.
Now, given that conditions have a limit of 25 stacks and the bizarrely high HP pools most bosses sport, that kind of gear is nowhere near to Berserker gear in terms of damage (Condis are godly in PvP, though).
Healing Power’s usefulness is rendered null if people time their dodges and active defenses, too.

I hope that’s clear enough.

That makes Zerker faster, but it does not necessarily make it better. If speed and efficiency aren’t all you’re after then you have to consider other things. How stressful is it playing zerker compared to the other options? Yes you can actively defend most everything, but if you make a mistake a lot of the time it’s poof dead. So there is merit in the other options if you simply don’t want to play to that level and prefer a nice easy game.

That’s one of the things that bugs me about the zerker meta. Lots of people who do it fail to look at any other factors in play other than speed. That or they don’t even look for the benefits and instead just play how a youtube video told them to.

Zerker isn’t necessarily “Better” because that’s a very subjective term and zerker isn’t the best in every way, it’s much more stressful, and I’m sure I’m not the only one that doesn’t always want to be playing at that level after working all day =) Zerker is the fastest, but it’d just be nice if people could accept that there are other options with their benefits as well. Might not want those people in your group, but they are completely valid options and very well may suite those players better than zerker would making it better for them.

All that said, I’m running zerker more and more because it is fun playing with that stress when I feel up to it =)

Zerker is better. Fact.
It serves well between the rules of the game. Anything beyond this is just personal preference, lack of skill or nitpicking as we have seen here and in other threads too.

ps: If you made a mistake, you go down. Poof, rally or you get ressed.

Dalanor.5387:

Zerker is better. Fact.
It serves well between the rules of the game. Anything beyond this is just personal preference, lack of skill or nitpicking as we have seen here and in other threads too.

ps: If you made a mistake, you go down. Poof, rally or you get ressed.

So you’re saying zerker is better as a fact, except if you lack the skills/experience, prefer something else, or just like to nitpick the downsides.

Seems like enough exceptions to make that “fact” not so objectively factual.

Its the better gearset. That doesnt mean its most suitable for everyone. Dont be pedantic. :P

Spoj The Second.7680:

Its the better gearset. That doesnt mean its most suitable for everyone. Dont be pedantic. :P

THat’s the problem though, people are constantly telling others they should be using zerker gear. But what if it simply doesn’t suite them?

That’s all I’m trying to say, is that not everyone approaches the game the same way. In different situations, with different people, what is best for someone may not be the best for someone else.

And the reason zerkers get so much hate is because A LOT of them can’t grasp that concept.

I will write it again, maybe you can grasp the concept.
Zerker is the best option. End of story.
If the player aren’t good enough or have actual issues like lag or slow reflexes, than it’s a user problem. Mechanic wise berserker stats with an optimized build are the best for every intanced pve content. Okay, some classes benefits more from assassin, but you get it.

It’s like you state a Ferrari isn’t faster than your bicycle because you can’t drive it …

Dalanor.5387:

I will write it again, maybe you can grasp the concept.
Zerker is the best option. End of story.
If the player aren’t good enough or have actual issues like lag or slow reflexes, than it’s a user problem. Mechanic wise berserker stats with an optimized build are the best for every intanced pve content. Okay, some classes benefits more from assassin, but you get it.

It’s like you state a Ferrari isn’t faster than your bicycle because you can’t drive it …

a Ferrari is Faster than a bike, And Zerker is faster than everything else.

But a Bike doesn’t use gas that costs $4+ a gallon.

There’s more than just speed to consider.

Jerus.4350:

Dalanor.5387:

I will write it again, maybe you can grasp the concept.
Zerker is the best option. End of story.
If the player aren’t good enough or have actual issues like lag or slow reflexes, than it’s a user problem. Mechanic wise berserker stats with an optimized build are the best for every intanced pve content. Okay, some classes benefits more from assassin, but you get it.

It’s like you state a Ferrari isn’t faster than your bicycle because you can’t drive it …

a Ferrari is Faster than a bike, And Zerker is faster than everything else.

But a Bike doesn’t use gas that costs $4+ a gallon.

There’s more than just speed to consider.

Okay, take #2526474245235235235.
I’m sure you have seen a lot of speedrun and solo dungeon videos.
What happened there? No one died and they were fast.
Conclusion?
You can survive fine in berserker gear, IF you don’t get hit meanwhile you are faster than any other option.
Oh now you come here and say “but but but zerker licks the floor” etc …. There is where players skill comes in. Objectively, zerker is the best option. End of story. No nitpicking. Stop. Right now. Don’t even think about it. Stop. Good.

If you take into account player skill, this gets a bit problematic.
As i said above, if your internet conncection is laggy or you simply aren’t on that skill level than it is justified to get the “training wheels” on and run in knights, cleric, pvt, whatever.
Every other excuse than this is … well … i will keep this opinion to myself.
Of course, you can get a whole group of pvt guys with decent builds (yeah, surprisingly a few stuff can help) and afk kill almost everything, but it’s soooo lame.

I think a question that has to be asked is, why do people consider things like PVT armour to be ‘training wheels’ while the berserker set is considered something for everybody to aspire towards in PVE.

The fact that it is flat out better than anything else goes beyond just speed clearing. Boons are the same power no matter what, toughness contributes to nothing ability wise, vitality contributes nothing ability wise, healing power scales poorly for many skills, and you have to sacrifice so much in order to get any useful level of healing power, and it isnt even of great benefit because everyone is worrying about their personal survival anyway.

The fact that the game is so easy that you can complete any dungeon with any combination should not blind us to the fact that compared to berserker in pve, there is not much return on investment in other armour sets.

You will always have the same dodge, or the same aegis, or the same wall of reflection, no matter your armor. And how does being a little tougher in PVE contribute, when you are in no position to 100% ensure you will be taking blows for your squishier party members. You all dodge, you all use your utilities, you all do damage, and you triumph.

So yeah, other builds can work, but to me it feels like trying to get something different out of a game that does not support it. And I always felt like a heel when I played my soldier gear guardian in dungeons, because as berserker I had the same type of utility, just dodged everything, and did more damage. I just performed better overall, but I was not enjoying my success.

I have not run into enough jerks to hate the players, but I do have my issues with the game mechanics as they currently are. Which is exactly why I think the berserker nerf was useless. It accomplished nothing. Everything will depend on the followup from Anet

Dalanor.5387:

Jerus.4350:

Dalanor.5387:

I will write it again, maybe you can grasp the concept.
Zerker is the best option. End of story.
If the player aren’t good enough or have actual issues like lag or slow reflexes, than it’s a user problem. Mechanic wise berserker stats with an optimized build are the best for every intanced pve content. Okay, some classes benefits more from assassin, but you get it.

It’s like you state a Ferrari isn’t faster than your bicycle because you can’t drive it …

a Ferrari is Faster than a bike, And Zerker is faster than everything else.

But a Bike doesn’t use gas that costs $4+ a gallon.

There’s more than just speed to consider.

Okay, take #2526474245235235235.
I’m sure you have seen a lot of speedrun and solo dungeon videos.
What happened there? No one died and they were fast.
Conclusion?
You can survive fine in berserker gear, IF you don’t get hit meanwhile you are faster than any other option.
Oh now you come here and say “but but but zerker licks the floor” etc …. There is where players skill comes in. Objectively, zerker is the best option. End of story. No nitpicking. Stop. Right now. Don’t even think about it. Stop. Good.

If you take into account player skill, this gets a bit problematic.
As i said above, if your internet conncection is laggy or you simply aren’t on that skill level than it is justified to get the “training wheels” on and run in knights, cleric, pvt, whatever.
Every other excuse than this is … well … i will keep this opinion to myself.
Of course, you can get a whole group of pvt guys with decent builds (yeah, surprisingly a few stuff can help) and afk kill almost everything, but it’s soooo lame.

Sure, play in a bubble where mistakes can’t happen and what not, suer zerker gear is hands down better, if you remove everything but speed then of course the fastest options is the best.

Problem is you can’t seem to understand that not everyone cares about speed.

Some people value ease of play over speed.

You can disagree if you want, but it doesn’t make their opinion invalid or yours better.

Not everyone wants to power game when they get home from work, some just want a nice relaxing time mass slaughtering enemies. You may find that play boring, and sometimes I’d agree with you, but sometimes it’s nice to get off a long day of work, get the chores done then sit down and just have a nice pleasant easy time playing the game. That’s why I have 3 different gear sets on my main =).

Jerus.4350:

Dalanor.5387:

Jerus.4350:

Dalanor.5387:

I will write it again, maybe you can grasp the concept.
Zerker is the best option. End of story.
If the player aren’t good enough or have actual issues like lag or slow reflexes, than it’s a user problem. Mechanic wise berserker stats with an optimized build are the best for every intanced pve content. Okay, some classes benefits more from assassin, but you get it.

It’s like you state a Ferrari isn’t faster than your bicycle because you can’t drive it …

a Ferrari is Faster than a bike, And Zerker is faster than everything else.

But a Bike doesn’t use gas that costs $4+ a gallon.

There’s more than just speed to consider.

Okay, take #2526474245235235235.
I’m sure you have seen a lot of speedrun and solo dungeon videos.
What happened there? No one died and they were fast.
Conclusion?
You can survive fine in berserker gear, IF you don’t get hit meanwhile you are faster than any other option.
Oh now you come here and say “but but but zerker licks the floor” etc …. There is where players skill comes in. Objectively, zerker is the best option. End of story. No nitpicking. Stop. Right now. Don’t even think about it. Stop. Good.

If you take into account player skill, this gets a bit problematic.
As i said above, if your internet conncection is laggy or you simply aren’t on that skill level than it is justified to get the “training wheels” on and run in knights, cleric, pvt, whatever.
Every other excuse than this is … well … i will keep this opinion to myself.
Of course, you can get a whole group of pvt guys with decent builds (yeah, surprisingly a few stuff can help) and afk kill almost everything, but it’s soooo lame.

Sure, play in a bubble where mistakes can’t happen and what not, suer zerker gear is hands down better, if you remove everything but speed then of course the fastest options is the best.

Problem is you can’t seem to understand that not everyone cares about speed.

Some people value ease of play over speed.

You can disagree if you want, but it doesn’t make their opinion invalid or yours better.

Not everyone wants to power game when they get home from work, some just want a nice relaxing time mass slaughtering enemies. You may find that play boring, and sometimes I’d agree with you, but sometimes it’s nice to get off a long day of work, get the chores done then sit down and just have a nice pleasant easy time playing the game. That’s why I have 3 different gear sets on my main =).

You’re right, in a way. But some people don’t see this as a slaughter all kind of game. Diablo games are slaughter games. Loot tables encourage slaughter. Guild wars 2 has difficultish elite mobs which are difficult to kill (in dungeons). They drop nothing. Developers made it that way to prevent farming, which is something “slaughter” games encourage. This is not that game, in dungeons.

In open world, yes. Definitely.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

You’re right, in a way. But some people don’t see this as a slaughter all kind of game. Diablo games are slaughter games. Loot tables encourage slaughter. Guild wars 2 has difficultish elite mobs which are difficult to kill (in dungeons). They drop nothing. Developers made it that way to prevent farming, which is something “slaughter” games encourage. This is not that game, in dungeons.

In open world, yes. Definitely.

Very true, far from the best game for that. Probably a bad phrasing of what I meant.

Sometimes I like to know that I can mistime a Subject Alpha roll and not splat. It’s as simple as that, sometimes I like to have that stress taken out of the game. My goal those nights isn’t to finish fast, it’s just to get through it, kill stuff and have some fun before I head to bed.

Considering this is a GAME, and it’s played for FUN. Sometimes it’s more fun to take that stress off, making those non zerk optoins better in that regard. Is it being lazy, sure as hell is, but there’s nothing wrong with being lazy in a game that’s supposed to be just played for fun.

Jerus.4350:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

You’re right, in a way. But some people don’t see this as a slaughter all kind of game. Diablo games are slaughter games. Loot tables encourage slaughter. Guild wars 2 has difficultish elite mobs which are difficult to kill (in dungeons). They drop nothing. Developers made it that way to prevent farming, which is something “slaughter” games encourage. This is not that game, in dungeons.

In open world, yes. Definitely.

Very true, far from the best game for that. Probably a bad phrasing of what I meant.

Sometimes I like to know that I can mistime a Subject Alpha roll and not splat. It’s as simple as that, sometimes I like to have that stress taken out of the game. My goal those nights isn’t to finish fast, it’s just to get through it, kill stuff and have some fun before I head to bed.

Considering this is a GAME, and it’s played for FUN. Sometimes it’s more fun to take that stress off, making those non zerk optoins better in that regard. Is it being lazy, sure as hell is, but there’s nothing wrong with being lazy in a game that’s supposed to be just played for fun.

I love these double standards.
Btw aren’t we talked about efficiency of zerker gear previously or this is an intended derail of the topic to win an argument?

I don’t see why you’re continuing to argue semantics. When people refer to a gear set as the ‘best’, it’s in terms of efficiency or overall effectiveness. You can find anecdotal exceptions but that’s all they are; anecdotes.

Most people don’t care if you are unable to perform properly in beserker gear. It’s only when people claim that their non-standard build/gearset is super awesome win that people get salty. You don’t need to try argue that it’s not “the unconditional best”, because frankly it’s just being pedantic.