Why i dislike dungeons, and find them badly designed.
I like the difficulty of the dungeons as they are. I suggest you try NOT to run dungeons with random people, as the general mentality is YOU HAZ TO BE THIS SPEC BECAUSE I PLAYED WOW AND THIS IS HOW WE DID IT THERE AND IF UR NOT SUPER L33T THEN WE DON’T WANT YOU BECAUSE YOU WON’T LET US RUN THIS DUNGEON IN 2 MINUTES OR LESS.
The dungeons are very unappealing to me with randoms. But with friends, it is extremely fun trying to play with our individual builds and our team setups and trying to actually COMPLETE the dungeon as opposed to speed clear it.
I agree that some of the world events make you feel minuscule and unimportant, and really the risk vs. reward proportions are ridiculously imbalanced. The Shatterer is a giant huge dragon champion, but if i stand to his side he can’t even turn and look at me or even send out an AoE to just destroy me. and I could auto-attack him to death along with the rest of the horde. Yet we’d only get a bunch of uncommon items, and maybe a masterwork IF LUCKY. I can go into Citadel of Flame and kill 3 bosses, and only receive uncommon items from all the chests again. Yet I can kill a regular Risen Corrupter and get a rare torch, mostly likely with crappy magic find and healing stats.
I just wish the drop rates/magic find rates were scaled up based on level of difficulty or tier of the chest (the big gold chests should drop better stuff than blues)… people don’t run the dungeons for the dungeon or the treasure. They run it for the tokens for some armor that everyone else is wearing. I feel like the real attraction of the dungeons is completely overlooked because there really ISN’T any attraction. No real reward to trying to clear as much of a dungeon as possible. No real reward in trying to slay a giant dragon champion. No real reward for trying to experiment and coordinate on a level beyond “make sure you have speed buffs so we can do this faster”.
but mouthforwar, the problem is you kinda do have to run those kinds of setups to do a dungeon with any amount of success at not getting creamed into the floor. Just an example but my current spec is power/precision with lots of crit damage, i use staff in dungeons as its safer but i’d actually prefer to use daggers. Now i tried to do dungeons in my present set up but, it doesnt work at all. Yes i do crazy good damage, and while i can avoid things for awhile mobs instantly gun for me, and seek me out no amount of control of my own is going to lock down those adds.
Sad truth is you absolutely need someone running a control spec, someone running a buff spec, at the VERY least. Anyone specs into a pure damage spec because they find it enjoyable is just going to get creamed. Bigger problem is by time you realize this you have sunk hours and lots of cash into your gear…and now have to switch it out JUST for that dungeon… that just seems silly i hated it in other mmos and i hope so to.
Lokai, I’ve noticed you keep saying the holy trinity still exists, but you also keep saying it doesn’t work. Maybe the reason it doesn’t work is because…it doesn’t exist. To most of us, holy trinity is synonymous with one person watching health bars, one person staring at the boss’s rear end, and 3 people happily DPSing while the healer keeps them up. If the game was that easy, people wouldn’t be complaining about difficulty – only boredom.
I also see you mentioning that others have to keep you alive, but you can’t depend on others to keep you up. Yes, having a water ele can help make things easier but ultimately it’s up to you to heal, dodge, kite and pay attention. And that’s the way it’s meant to be.
They didn’t remove the holy trinity so everyone could be one facet of the holy trinity, in this case pure DPS. They removed the holy trinity to bring back personal responsibility so that no one person was responsible for success or failure of the team. That means people have to have more balanced builds.
I ran my first dungeon as a condition/support hybrid mesmer with another condition mesmer, a necro, a ranger and a thief. Pretty sure they were hybrids as well but nobody paid attention to anyone’s health but their own. One of us had experience, but all of us figured out quickly which mobs to target first so the trash fights didn’t last long at all, and weren’t that difficult. And the boss fight mechanics had nothing to do with holy trinities and everything to do with watching what was happening and using the environment to our advantage.
Someone else mentioned that there weren’t any clues to mechanics. They also talked about carrying around boulders. I find this amusing because the very fact that designers put boulders in the instance was a big clue. We’re meant to use them for a couple of the boss fights. Also, NPCs even give clues. I’m pretty sure Rytlock or someone else flat out says to keep the lovers apart, for example.
As for wanting to know how to gear, the dungeon and level 80 karma gear in Orr offer some insight. Ironically people were complaining about a lack of a pure DPS scholar set. Instead the gear is more balanced. I think that’s deliberate and a big clue.
(edited by Aly Cat.9415)
Okay you don’t like Dungeons in GW2, I really don’t mind that, but don’t tell me they are hard or full of one-shot mechanics … this is NOT true.
I’m currently done with 5 dungeons (Ascalon, Caudecus, Twilight, Flamecitadel, Sorrows)
meaning all explorable ways.
I have all storymodes done and currently on Arah explo.
And NO I’m not playing a ranged class, I play D/D Thief and I’m in melee 85% of all fights.
Our team consists of !!!3!!! melee’s.
All my armor is on Power/preci/condi, weapons power/preci/crit and jewels power/vit/condi.
I’m not full def like some guys here think is necessary.
Our Warrior is even full glass canon all Power/Preci/crit with 2h sword.
The ONLY one of our team that is defense is our guardian with a good vit/tough balance.
We avoid waypoint zerging because it’s stupid and I really don’t know why A-net even allows it (they wouldn’t even need to tune most stuff down IMO).
Currently we have maybe 1-2 full deaths during an explorable dungeon we know already and on Arah today we had 2 group wipes (that was the first time we did Arah explo … Giganticus Lupicus is a pain).
Please tell me where all those one-shot mechanics are hidden .. oh i know a few: Crucible story mode Kudu’s killshot, Tazza in Sorrow’s Embrace and her spectral blade attack, Giganticus Lupicus, maybe kudu’s golems in SE story, Nightmare Tree spike on the spider way.
All of these can be avoided with a bit of thinking.
I only know TWO examples of bad ones: last boss in HoW and his stupid birds and one boss in Caudecus Manor that can chain knockdowns till you are dead (can be countered by Stability).
Trashmobs are for the most parts challenging but not unfair in ANY way, focus fire, awareness etc. counter almost all of them.
I don’t get the gripes with the dungeons. All I see are complaints that the overworld stuff is too easy, and that dungeons are too hard. Which is it?
Also here is my FIRST real time in Ascalonian Catacombs (We tried it with 4 in BETA and made it just past the first trap room)
It took less then an hour with around 5 deaths.
I see you only read the first 2 lines of my post before going on yet another tangent, now read the whole thing, here i’ll even provide a link for you to see some more interesting things you can do with other players abilities. (if you can make it past the first few lines anyway)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage
http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/editorials/combo-fields-and-finishers
Using these means you SHOULD be using more than your dps abilities. you have other abilities for a reason.
Yes, I could very possibly be playing a different GW2 than you, Some people play zergfests in Open world, Some people play rez zerging in instances (and mash 1 button dodging), where I play combo fields and find them hugely entertaining.
QFT.
Everyone needs to learn how to take advantage of this and choose their builds and weapons accordingly. There are some classes that can create a ton of fields, and other classes that have a ton of finishers. For example, the necro has 4 abilities that can create dark fields and a trait that can grant protection while using them. Stagger the field drops while dropping blast finishers the entire time for constant aoe blinds and that’s a lot of damage getting mitigated.
People also need to figure out what they can bring to the table along with combo fields and finishers. Going back to the necro, beyond dark fields what unique benefit does the class bring to the group? Condition management? Vulnerability stacking? Special revival abilities and traits? Figure it out and adjust your build accordingly. Don’t expect to bring the build you’ve been soloing with to a dungeon and be successful, odds are it’s not going to work. ANet made it extremely easy to change your build on the fly and a complete respec at 80 is about 4 silver, so take advantage of it before you go decide to go to a dungeon.
(edited by Sartori.6758)
The dungeons are just bad – Why on earth should someone want to play it is beyond my understanding. It has nothing to do with trinity – it has to do with horrible bad design of encounters. Half the time you have absolutly zero idea what is going on cause your own team mates are spamming all sorts of stuff that prevents you seeing what the “boss” is doing.
Can’t belive that a game managed to get this so wrong. Feel so dissapointed that Im not playing GW2 anymore. Designers that get it this wrong dont deserved their game to be played.
Sad truth is you absolutely need someone running a control spec, someone running a buff spec, at the VERY least. Anyone specs into a pure damage spec because they find it enjoyable is just going to get creamed. Bigger problem is by time you realize this you have sunk hours and lots of cash into your gear…and now have to switch it out JUST for that dungeon… that just seems silly i hated it in other mmos and i hope so to.
Or… You could do what my guild does and just have everyone go in with well rounded setups and change what you’re doing on the fly.
And by utilizing combo fields you can easily keep plenty of buffs and debuffs up to minimize incoming damage. I do also recall Anet saying that while you CAN extremely spec for damage or healing in guild Wars 2 your character will suffer in other areas if you do.
I’ve also noticed (at least with my class) that the defensive trees have some major traits that can up damage, and the the offensives tress have defense ones as well. What’s stopping you from utilizing some of these? You won’t have to respec, you can just change them back any time out of combat for free.
Lastly, and please correct me if I’m wrong here, But can’t you heavily alter your stats simply by switching out your accessories?
The dungeons don’t have 1 shot mobs. they have 3 or 4 stacked attack mobs that SEEM one like one shots. When I instantly die in Ac it is because I got his with a firestorm, ranger trap, and mob hit all at the same time.
It is still unforgiving because it is so hard to dodge most of the AE and the enemies just spam them out randomly with less than a half second warning to move.
It’s obvious that they failed at designing dungeons because besides the nice aesthetics (that team nailed the entire game) it’s still a lot of tank n’ spank. Something that surprised me a lot. Instead of adding more content by having fun combat and puzzles etc. it’s all about extremely long and boring fights. Take Honor of the Waves for example. There is a path in which an icebrood oakheart thingie crashes down the gate and starts attacking you. We didn’t drag it that far but i actually resetted TWO times.. With the amount of HP that these bosses have (to make the content longer >.>) this was really frustrating. Also, it was very easy and honestly, not fun at all. After we finally killed it, we walked to the deck of the ship and guess what? Another one of those waited for us! The same cursed boss with the same abilities and extreme high HP. To make it even worse, the endboss was underwater… Blargh!
Something else that i want to adress is the imbalance between paths. It took me literally three days of farming CoF path 2 to get most of my CoF gear (don’t need shoulders and legs because you don’t see them that well anyways and crafting them was easyer). I tried path 1 and 3 aswell with a few people but like people have already said, the boss with the crystals is just stupid. Even if you figure out how to deal with it and do your best, it feels impossible. Also, Sorrow’s Embrace has a path in which you can avoid the patrols, so the enemies won’t search for you and only the bosses are left to kill. Path takes like 17 minutes to do and probably needs attention aswell.
Something else that makes no sense is that even with the tools at hand, it’s sometimes impossible to stay alive. Ok, thanks for giving me the ability to dodge. I’m using “Bountiful Thef” and get vigor, even more dodges available! I can dodge whatever this boss throws at me.. And then the boss starts to throw fiery bolts around in rapid succession, making the dodge ability useless and the fight extremely frustrating because you can barely prevent dying.
Well, enough QQ-ing from my part. The game is amazing but dungeons are easily the worst part of the entire game, I only covered what popped up in my mind while writing this post so take in mind that these problems are just the tip of the iceberg. Dungeons will need a serious overhaul and i’m baffled that you guys failed at creating more fun battles with the combat system that exists in this game. The game is still young so i hope that you guys will figure it out. Show us what you can do!
Just one more thing: While CoF path 2 is easy to farm, it’s quite a lot of fun imo. I like the variety and aesthetics.
Dius Vanguard [DiVa]
Gandara – WvW Warrior
Gandara – WvW Warrior
(edited by IDarko.4709)
Lokai, I’ve noticed you keep saying the holy trinity still exists, but you also keep saying it doesn’t work. Maybe the reason it doesn’t work is because…it doesn’t exist.
But it does exist most just dont realize they are doing it and i’ve explained it before… the thing to remember is, the idea of the trinity is 3 classes are required or highly needed to complete content. They dont have to be old aggro style of mechanic… and they DO exist! and having them makes each encounter much easier. buffer, controller, debuffer these are the trinity and they are core to success.
Buffer: allies boons most of the fight these stop or prevent damage, or boost over all damage.
Debuffer: these apply debuffs that reduce effectiveness of a boss, such as weakness or chill.
Controller: applies abilities that stop or prevent a boss from acting or hitting the target such as blind.
These are three core specs that exist, and to the thief said he went melee and did fine. I bet you did spamming your smoke screen skill that blinds the target and keeping it up constantly. Sounds like a controller to me…
I will agree to one thing though and slowly coming to me and its hard to break the old mmo habbits but, that is that… GW2 must be played like D&D. The idea that i may not be able to escape an enemy who guns for me and have to support myself, this is a concept that harkens back to D&D with spells like mage armor, and protection from evil which are spells EVERY mage will use at some point in D&D game.
Do i like it? kinda… but issue is that in D&D were abilities and skills could be used to insure your safety such as grease or hold person. The issue i have is that in GW2 the controls dont last long enough to make use of them…often only delaying the inevitable. As i am still quite fond of my power/precision build using daggers it still feels like are enemies just impossible to avoid or i have to blow a utility to stop it only the boss in question will do this far more then i can use said utility.
The game is far from balanced and i think anyone that says its fine is a blatant fan boy. Personally dungeons need work… the game is far from perfect. THAT said its also ranks as one of the BEST mmos i have ever played so dont think i am hating on the game because i am loving it! just frustraiting to get 1 shot every encounter or be forced to go ranged when i really hate the ranged weapon sets.
These are three core specs that exist, and to the thief said he went melee and did fine. I bet you did spamming your smoke screen skill that blinds the target and keeping it up constantly. Sounds like a controller to me…
My utilities are caltrops, Shadow Signet and Scorpion Wire (That pulling magic)
Scorpion Wire is the one I switch on demand for the group, sometimes I use Devourer Venom for the Imob, sometimes the normal poison Venom for better poison uptime whatever is needed.
D/D has no mass blind, so to answer your question, NO I’m not a controller I’m borderline glass cannon with a BIT of Vitality on my jewels.
Our Engineer is using Granate kit most of the time for good AoE and stacking up Vulnerabilty almost the whole time.
Our Warrior is a pure Glass Cannon with 2hand greatsword, sometimes full signet stack build for the serious burst, sometimes shout build for good support while damaging.
Our Ranger is longbow user with high burst and good sustained damage.
As I said our guardian is the only one with a defensive build, maybe you would call him a controller or something, his weapons are Greatsword and Staff
You can all believe whatever you want about melee being unviable but our team is going strong with 3 melees since the release without using permablind etc.
Oh to your Trinity:
Debuffs:
Me (Thief) is doing weakness/poison/bleed as debuffs.
Engineer is doing vulnerabilty.
Guardian is applying Burning.
Boons:
Thief/Warrior/Ranger for infinite Fury stack
Guardian/Warrior for Protection uptime
Guardian+Thief with Shortbow for Retaliation stack
Guardian/Warrior for might stack
Can’t really tell who is the Debuffer and Buffer in our team because we all buff and debuff =/
(edited by jindrael.6024)
AC story seems harder than some of the lvl 75+ explorables imo. This is from the perspective of someone who did AC story at lvl 33 and is running other dungeons at lvl 80. However, I think they should tone down AC story more to make it a fun experience for lower levels. It’s the first dungeon new players experience after all.
AC story. frustrated me on day #3 or so with my glass-cannon ele. Frustrated me with my defensive necro. I’m not going there again. And for that matter, I’m not going into any dungeon in GW2 again, ever.
I heard that AC story is an overtuned SOB designed to keep you from ever even trying the other dungeons. Well, it succeeded on me. It just wasn’t fun. Having said that, in ever MMO so far, 5-man-content was what I had most fun in. I was so looking foreward to the dungeons in GW2. Well, kitten that, not going there again.
Now, of course this is my loss, not ArenaNets loss. However, the risk is that if another MMO comes around that mimics many aspects of GW2 but makes dungeons fun, I might just be gone.
1. No one ever said you could run your sister’s HelloKitty spec in a dungeon, ESPECIALLY in explorable modes. You are supposed to switch your skills and adapt.
2. You won’t get oneshot if you figure out the mechanics of the mob, make sure you have defensive cds when going into melee, etc. There is plenty of time to dodge the circles.
3. Fun should be the real reward, not some grind-worthy piece of gear or tons of gold.
4. They may feel zergy to you, but to me it’s like I’m constantly moving from melee to max range (to ensure highest damage) always making sure I have ways to immune possible attacks from mobs while close up, keeping an eye on the boons and using my signet to spread them around if I have plenty on me, watching out for players that need ressing so I can blink towards them or knockback/stun mobs attacking them, watching out for combo fields so I can combo leap through them, keeping an eye on possible conditions and poison clouds so I can use Null Zone, and finally making sure that when I pop my Time Warp it counts and benefits most players.
(edited by Mitlandir.8306)
AC story seems harder than some of the lvl 75+ explorables imo. This is from the perspective of someone who did AC story at lvl 33 and is running other dungeons at lvl 80. However, I think they should tone down AC story more to make it a fun experience for lower levels. It’s the first dungeon new players experience after all.
AC story. frustrated me on day #3 or so with my glass-cannon ele. Frustrated me with my defensive necro. I’m not going there again. And for that matter, I’m not going into any dungeon in GW2 again, ever.
I heard that AC story is an overtuned SOB designed to keep you from ever even trying the other dungeons. Well, it succeeded on me. It just wasn’t fun. Having said that, in ever MMO so far, 5-man-content was what I had most fun in. I was so looking foreward to the dungeons in GW2. Well, kitten that, not going there again.
Now, of course this is my loss, not ArenaNets loss. However, the risk is that if another MMO comes around that mimics many aspects of GW2 but makes dungeons fun, I might just be gone.
Not used to a challenge? Well you’re right, it is your fault. I simply don’t understand how people can fail/get a bad group in one dungeon and then say they never wanna try dungeons again when there are so many other amazing and super-fun dungeons in the game…
Bigger problem is by time you realize this you have sunk hours and lots of cash into your gear…and now have to switch it out JUST for that dungeon… that just seems silly i hated it in other mmos and i hope so to.
Especially in storymode, this is failed design.
Storymode dungeons are supposed to be run at appropriate levels, because the story they’re about ties in with your personal story if you do. However, while out there in PvE leveling, I’m not in a dungeon build and I’m not in dungeon armor. I’m dressed and specced for open world leveling. Therefore, I’m doomed to suck in dungeons (while leveling) and to generally have a very bad, no-fun experience. As I said above, I did AC storymode a few times, I’m not doing any any dungeons again anytime soon.
Not used to a challenge? Well you’re right, it is your fault. I simply don’t understand how people can fail/get a bad group in one dungeon and then say they never wanna try dungeons again when there are so many other amazing and super-fun dungeons in the game…
AC story, in case you’ve forgotten, is the first dungeon you enter in GW2. I did so during headstart. I was not prepared. I did so again, I thought I was prepared (necro in fully defensive build). It still wasn’t much fun. That’s it for me.
AC story (which is what I’m talking about) is the first dungeon of them all you naturally enter. You’re even getting an invitation by mail. Now, let me tell you how this should work if designed well:
The first dungeon is rather easy. It introduces you to certain abilities that bosses have. It introduces you to the fact that you will need certain builds for dungeons. That you might better gear for them unless you like the taste of the floor. But it should not be frustrating you. Boss mechanics should be fairly simple, like AOE-circles that give you 1.5 seconds to evade.
From there, you gradually ramp up the difficulty. You might be introducing new sorts of boss-mechanics. Telegraphing-times might go down significantly. Non-AoE 1-shots with huge, long telegraphs are added to the fight so you learn to keep one eye on the floor and one on the boss.
In subsequent dungeons, you keep adding mechanics like adds, the need not just to kill but to control adds, having to use items like levers at certain times and so on. You add these elements to the fights to your storymode dungeons.
Finally, in the explorables, you bring all the mechanics you’ve taught your players together. The fights can be as hard as you want them to be. You can ask your players to stand on pressure-plates while evading AoE-damage by adds they have to keep controlled. Or whatever.
But: By teaching your players new mechanics gradually, you introduce a learning curve which keeps all content engaging at the level it’s designed to be played at for the first time.
GW2 does everything wrong in this regard. It opens with the hardest storymode, thereby frustrating newcomers. It then fails to gradually ramp up difficulty to keep content engaging. It fails to teach you the mechanics it plans to use and combine in later content. It’s just plain bad design.
(edited by phooka.4295)
Not used to a challenge? Well you’re right, it is your fault. I simply don’t understand how people can fail/get a bad group in one dungeon and then say they never wanna try dungeons again when there are so many other amazing and super-fun dungeons in the game…
AC story, in case you’ve forgotten, is the first dungeon you enter in GW2. I did so during headstart. I was not prepared. I did so again, I thought I was prepared (necro in fully defensive build). It still wasn’t much fun. That’s it for me.
AC story (which is what I’m talking about) is the first dungeon of them all you naturally enter. You’re even getting an invitation by mail. Now, let me tell you how this should work if designed well:
The first dungeon is rather easy. It introduces you to certain abilities that bosses have. It introduces you to the fact that you will need certain builds for dungeons. That you might better gear for them unless you like the taste of the floor. But it should not be frustrating you. Boss mechanics should be fairly simple, like AOE-circles that give you 1.5 seconds to evade.
From there, you gradually ramp up the difficulty. You might be introducing new sorts of boss-mechanics. Telegraphing-times might go down significantly. Non-AoE 1-shots with huge, long telegraphs are added to the fight so you learn to keep one eye on the floor and one on the boss.
In subsequent dungeons, you keep adding mechanics like adds, the need not just to kill but to control adds, having to use items like levers at certain times and so on. You add these elements to the fights to your storymode dungeons.
Finally, in the explorables, you bring all the mechanics you’ve taught your players together. The fights can be as hard as you want them to be. You can ask your players to stand on pressure-plates while evading AoE-damage by adds they have to keep controlled. Or whatever.
But: By teaching your players new mechanics gradually, you introduce a learning curve which keeps all content engaging at the level it’s designed to be played for the first time.
GW2 does everything wrong in this regard. It opens with the hardest storymode, thereby frustrating newcomers. It then fails to gradually ramp up difficulty to keep content engaging. It fails to teach you the mechanics it plans to use and combine in later content. It’s just plain bad design.
The way you just portrayed it it sounds like AC story was insanely difficult… and it was not. It was easy/medium at max.
The way you just portrayed it it sounds like AC story was insanely difficult… and it was not. It was easy/medium at max.
Oh I forgot – you or someone else might be able do it alone, without a group, with no gear except an off-hand warhorn, playing with one hand on your laptop, using the other to drive your car on the way to work. But exactly half the playerbase has a skill that’s below the median. And we’re talking about storymode.
As I said, I didn’t like it much. In fact, I disliked it enough to not even try any other dungeon, so I’m not speaking from personal experience. However, my guild agrees that AC is the hardest or one of the hardest storymode dungeons and it’s too hard for a first dungeon. Many here on the forum seem to share this view.
i do not get why people have problems with ac story mode i just pug it fine…
I like people are claiming to have run AC with out any issues. I am betting they came back 10-20 levels above the required level, had a whole group was spec’d and or designed to do dungeons, and regeared themselves entirely for that situation.
first off… stop assuming i’m some terrible player that doesnt understand how to " gear " myself or how to dodge/avoid damage because i FULLY understand it. The issue i have with the current design is that is no learning curve at all, they THROW you into the fire, with no teaching or training with no hint at how to gear yourself, and absolutely NO idea of what you are walking into.
90% of AC mobs basic attacks will one shot ANYONE who is in a questing spec, secondly EXPECTING people to respec JUST to run a dungeon and regear themselves and then, have to either struggle with a support spec through normal content or, again pay to respec themselves. Wouldnt be as big a problem with we had a dual spec or early gear had some design to it that hinted at way you are suppose to gear.
I get it! need a toughness build, you need to be aware of your enemy, BUT the issue i have is that ANY mechanic that INSTANTLY kills you with out warning or any kind of sign as to why is bad! are plenty of mobs in game that do this, having a " specific animation" that keys into an instant kill in an mmo is poor design for MANY reasons! top reason being latency, followed by mobs being covered in particles and lastly, unclear animations. HAS to be some visual que that a one shot is coming, but most enemies do not have these! anyone that says they do is bold faced lieing to your face!
To end on it i refuse to change my stance, one shot mechanics are terrible in ANY game! idea you cant screw up even a little, idea you MUST be perfect dodge 7-8 attacks, always be watching 3-4 enemies because they can kill you instantly, that i must have 2 specs and pay to swap between them everytime i go into a dungeon, the idea that i have to have 2 gear set ups, and must be a pro player JUST to get anywhere in a game is absurd!
Dungeons right now are only for hardcore players… and thats a bad design you MUST have content that everyone can enjoy, thats why are difficulty modes. Right now dungeons are broken face the facts are way to many cant do them or dont enjoy them this tells you that your content is poorly designed!
Edit: before someone says " lawl it scales you down" better gear/stats still buff you in all content, going back to lvl 5 content in level 60 gear will make you god like.
So what I got from your post is that you’re an extremely lazy and selfish player who’s unwilling to even do the minimum of swapping a few traits, utilities or use weapons that will benefit a group. All I can say is that there’s a lot of solo and outdoor zerg content for you, and in a month or two maybe you can get carried through a dungeon after the majority of the player base adopts successful builds and strategies.
So what I got from your post is that you’re an extremely lazy and selfish player who’s unwilling to even do the minimum of swapping a few traits, utilities or use weapons that will benefit a group. All I can say is that there’s a lot of solo and outdoor zerg content for you, and in a month or two maybe you can get carried through a dungeon after the majority of the player base adopts successful builds and strategies.
Hi mr.troll, no i’m saying that expecting players to respec, and regear themselves for dungeons is bad. Its a staple of mmos today do what they can so that players can have a spec they enjoy in open world, but can easily swap around for group content. For example when i am questing and doing dynamic events i don’t always run utilities for defense or, group support.
Switching utilities is fine, heck i often run out o combat to swap a utility in harder fights such as revive utility that ele’s get. The issue is that…if you arent spec’d and geared a certain way, you probably arent going to be optimal, while in dynamic events is slightly less of an issue(though still an issue for example, if i am spec’d for melee and is a boss that insta kills melee i am now at a disadvantage) so now i have to pay to respec myself, then pay for new gear each level so i have 2 sets… then clutter my inventory with 2 specs.
So can i switch specs and adapt to strategy? OF COURSE! but that doesnt make it ok or alright to expect every player to have 2 builds, or build as a hybrid just to get by. So nice atempt at a troll but =3 fail troll is fail.
So what I got from your post is that you’re an extremely lazy and selfish player who’s unwilling to even do the minimum of swapping a few traits, utilities or use weapons that will benefit a group. All I can say is that there’s a lot of solo and outdoor zerg content for you, and in a month or two maybe you can get carried through a dungeon after the majority of the player base adopts successful builds and strategies.
Hi mr.troll, no i’m saying that expecting players to respec, and regear themselves for dungeons is bad. Its a staple of mmos today do what they can so that players can have a spec they enjoy in open world, but can easily swap around for group content. For example when i am questing and doing dynamic events i don’t always run utilities for defense or, group support.
Switching utilities is fine, heck i often run out o combat to swap a utility in harder fights such as revive utility that ele’s get. The issue is that…if you arent spec’d and geared a certain way, you probably arent going to be optimal, while in dynamic events is slightly less of an issue(though still an issue for example, if i am spec’d for melee and is a boss that insta kills melee i am now at a disadvantage) so now i have to pay to respec myself, then pay for new gear each level so i have 2 sets… then clutter my inventory with 2 specs.
So can i switch specs and adapt to strategy? OF COURSE! but that doesnt make it ok or alright to expect every player to have 2 builds, or build as a hybrid just to get by. So nice atempt at a troll but =3 fail troll is fail.
So what, now your beef is that you can’t make a random build and be “optimal” for everything? If a game has a multi-branching skill tree, there will always be an optimal way to do things. In a mmo, there will always be different builds that are more optimal for the type of content you are doing because of the vastly different dynamics that exist between solo pve and the different types group pve/pvp.
Now having said that, there are plenty of builds for every class that work for outdoor pve and can be made to work in a dungeon with a few trait/utility swaps or switching weapons. ANet has said several times that explore mode dungeons are for groups who are looking for a challenge and that it’ll take group coordination, strategy and build synergy to succeed. There isn’t much else GW2 could have done to make changing builds easier and more convenient than it already is without making builds completely meaningless. And seriously, what mmo out there doesn’t require you to grind out a different set of gear for a different build?
Calling me a troll btw isn’t going to make this thread any less of a fail, especially since you’ve completely ignored anyone who has offered constructive advice.
@Sartori
No one is trying to take away the fun that difficult explorable dungeons provide. What I have a problem with and what Lokai seems to have a problem with and what seems too much of a concept to grasp for some is this:
1) We’re talking about story mode only.
2) We’d like the difficulty in story mode dungeons to increase with every new dungeon you gain access to while leveling.
3) We feel that of all the story mode dungeons out there, the first you’re gaining access to, Ascalonian Catacombs, is (one of) the hardest of them all, which goes against (2).
I’ve given reasons why I think (2) is justified. (a) It teaches you what you need to know rather than expecting you to know everything right from the start. (b) It keeps every dungeon challenging rather than thrashing you in the first and then boring you in the latter dungeons.
Now, one counter argument seems to be that AC isn’t that hard after all. Well, if it isn’t, then what are the others? The ones you gain access to after AC? They’re undeniably easier. So why give us the harder one, first. Note that I wrote harder not hard. It’s about relative difficulty, not absolute difficulty. So even if we disagree about the challenge AC presents, maybe we can agree that in later dungeons, there’s less of a challenge than in AC. And that’s what’s being criticized.
EDIT: And yes, asking for a specific equipment or build for the first dungeon you step in seems a bit unbalanced if you ask me. Dungeons should gradually present you everything you need to learn. I don’t think “have a special build and equipment” needs to be the first lesson. I can only refer you to my yesterday’s post above.
(edited by phooka.4295)
I defy someone to make a video of them clearing CoF Magg EM now. Let’s see how exactly a non-exotic geared group is going to survive that.
I like how people attack others just because they stated an opinion.
It’s annoying when I see people saying “Don’t run the dungeons.” “Don’t play GW2 then.” “Go back to -insert game name here-”
We clearly spent money on GW2 and we clearly care for the game.
It’s why people post their opinions.
:|
I agree with many that the dungeons in this game seem terribly designed.
AC is the first dungeon which clearly means new people are going to group with randoms to try it out.
It shouldn’t be as hard as it is for being the first dungeon.
Not only that, but you can spend about 2-3hrs in AC for your first run and you only get 1 level, some silver, and a few blue and green items. (If you’re lucky to even get greens).
It’s completely absurd that you’d have to put in that much time for a reward like that.
In that time, you could have leveled twice or more, and have gotten so much more items and coins just from questing.
I read alot of posts about “trinity is back”, “i get instashot” etc.
I am really surprised by these comments, because until now, i found my dungeon forays really enjoyable.
I play as a guardian, and as i really like to try new specs, i pretty much go into dungeon with the random spec and stuff i have on.
The difference, i think, is i only play with guildies on Teamspeak. We have tactics. We put field, activate combo, we always have group boon running and we know our weaknesses.
The boss for us are pushovers. Yes, even the lovers, as we have found the boulders stun them, so two of us permastun the male with boulders and the other three ranged shot the female. Oh, you didn’t know about the boulders? Soz to be you.
Really, i think people are approaching dungeon with a WoW mentality. The thing that one person should be able to resist all the mobs that go in his way, from the start of the fight to the end, just by stacking toughness and vitality (better say you’re going tank..) is ridicolous.
I play as guardian, and often have the first pull. I don’t even think for a moment that i should “tank” the boss from start to finish. I often retreat, and leave the work to the mesmer, the thief, the warrior, the elementalist, the pet of the ranger… while i recover and support my friend with boons etc.
Going in dungeons shouldn’t be a trivial fact, a jog around the mobs, while the “tank” gets them, and the DPS shot them. The fact that you can get aggro anytime, and you have to FOCUS them, not AoE, it all gets down to the game specialty… PVP.
Yes, someone told that dungeons are PVP in disguise, i totally agree with them. You have to have tactics and, oh my, think about strategies even for the trash group of two ranger and one warrior that instagibs you. But try combo an area blind… Oh you don’t know how? It takes two players. Yes, two. Difficult? No. Different? Yes.
So, to be less sarcastic and sum up my thoughts, what i really think about this whining about dungeons is that this is caused by bad PUG experiences. Or even parties formed with a WoW mentality. Try thinking lateral for awhile. Hit lovers with boulders. Go damage with your “tank”. Kite with melee. All in all, enjoy the dungeons, but your challenges await you … in the real game… the WvW.
Fabsm
Guardian of Moonlight Shadow [MLS]
Fabsm
Guardian of Moonlight Shadow [MLS]
Guardian of Moonlight Shadow [MLS]
I read alot of posts about “trinity is back”, “i get instashot” etc.
I am really surprised by these comments, because until now, i found my dungeon forays really enjoyable.
I play as a guardian, and as i really like to try new specs, i pretty much go into dungeon with the random spec and stuff i have on.
The difference, i think, is i only play with guildies on Teamspeak. We have tactics. We put field, activate combo, we always have group boon running and we know our weaknesses.The boss for us are pushovers. Yes, even the lovers, as we have found the boulders stun them, so two of us permastun the male with boulders and the other three ranged shot the female. Oh, you didn’t know about the boulders? Soz to be you.
Really, i think people are approaching dungeon with a WoW mentality. The thing that one person should be able to resist all the mobs that go in his way, from the start of the fight to the end, just by stacking toughness and vitality (better say you’re going tank..) is ridicolous.
I play as guardian, and often have the first pull. I don’t even think for a moment that i should “tank” the boss from start to finish. I often retreat, and leave the work to the mesmer, the thief, the warrior, the elementalist, the pet of the ranger… while i recover and support my friend with boons etc.
Going in dungeons shouldn’t be a trivial fact, a jog around the mobs, while the “tank” gets them, and the DPS shot them. The fact that you can get aggro anytime, and you have to FOCUS them, not AoE, it all gets down to the game specialty… PVP.
Yes, someone told that dungeons are PVP in disguise, i totally agree with them. You have to have tactics and, oh my, think about strategies even for the trash group of two ranger and one warrior that instagibs you. But try combo an area blind… Oh you don’t know how? It takes two players. Yes, two. Difficult? No. Different? Yes.
So, to be less sarcastic and sum up my thoughts, what i really think about this whining about dungeons is that this is caused by bad PUG experiences. Or even parties formed with a WoW mentality. Try thinking lateral for awhile. Hit lovers with boulders. Go damage with your “tank”. Kite with melee. All in all, enjoy the dungeons, but your challenges await you … in the real game… the WvW.
Fabsm
Guardian of Moonlight Shadow [MLS]
Ugh..
Again with people like you who just assume everyone came from WoW.
I honestly have never touched the game.
Everyone knows about the boulders.
That’s why the boulders are in the room…
There are guides all over that mention the boulders, but it doesn’t mean that you’ll always succeed.
For AC being the first dungeon, it shouldn’t require that much time to do and compared to the other dungeons, it shouldn’t be that hard.
As for WvW…
I don’t know if you were joking or not, but WvW is a whole lot more fun than these dungeons and WvW is a lot easier as well.
At least it’s not frustrating.
I read alot of posts about “trinity is back”, “i get instashot” etc.
I am really surprised by these comments, because until now, i found my dungeon forays really enjoyable.
Its funny… someone else assuming people are bad and just standing there getting punched in the face. The truth is that a majority of folks understand the concept and are very actively trying to avoid the damage. The truth is that MOST mobs and enemies are either REALLY hard to read, or that some classes just easily killed by these mobs.
First he says that he plays a gaurdian which is one of the better classes in game, have great defenses and a number of skills to buff and or reduce over all damage done to them. Secondly he states he and his team are specing, built, and designed to do dungeons from the get go. He also confrims my earlier statement by saying he and his team are all giving boons(buffer), have a CCer(controller) and are debuffing bosses(debuffer) so they have the trinity i spoke of earlier.
What you need to understand is the people that are coming in and getting wrecked are those that are in a leveling spec, and gear. They had NO idea how harsh these areas would be, and are in the mind set of other mmos specing for damage only because NOTHING in game that tells you otherwise(also not convinced that pure damage should be punished as hard as it is). Further AC is far far far far more punishing then it should be.
Just an example, 5 guildies walked into AC, all of were so excited to do the content. Two of them are lvl 60, all of us are pretty much spec’d for leveling/damage. We had a guard, a thief, an ele and engineer and a warrior so was a nice variety of classes. But because NONE of us were spec’d right, had right gear what happend was the first 2 or 3 pulls just leveled/wrecked us. We tried to dodge/avoid but wasnt enough, at some point one of the adds catching us or a mob getting us from behind. When one died someone would try and rez and the add would just one shot them to.
Basically what i was trying to get at is that this game doesnt teach players how to play there game. In fact almost encourages them to keep playing the way have been in past mmos, since starting gear only allows for a single stat on it, and by the time you reach AC only got 2 stats on it. Nothing that teaches/shows you that you need to have certain stats.
People MAY hate on WoW but if you look at early gear in WoW, it always had stamina on it for extra life. Was very good at showing you that you need these stats on your gear. Further talent trees kind of a guide line for how you wanted to play, while i DONT want talent trees or to be limited in way i can stat myself, and i enjoy some aspects of the game it just DOESNT teach you at all that you need these things before you reach AC.
So by the time you are at the dungeon you are not prepared for it and you just get manhandled, before AC is nothing that prepares you for adds will totally one shot you. even veterns mobs you face in overworld can simply be tanked by standing there(though easier if you dont). So what i was trying to get at is…
GW2 expects you to gear and play a certain way, and does nothing to teach you how exactly they expect that to be. Further i am not so sure i like the idea of being gold i have to play as a hybrid class, or be forced to dirt nap every 30 secs… i don’t know i love GW2 but i just feel like dungeons are a cluster kitten atm.
To be completely honest, I don’t think the lack of the holy trinity is a good thing. Different, yes. Better? I’m starting to think it’s a case of “one step forward, two steps back”. The simple addition of having invincibility frames on a passive regen and “the downed state” has given the ANet dev team a crux to create an artificial difficulty to encounters (ie insta-gib abilities).
I don’t like it and it’s not a preferable alternative to anything we’ve seen before.
Aside running every dungeon once for story mode, I’m steering clear of them completely.
My first dungeon run was an AC story mode pug. Dodging out of circles: easy. The bosses: relatively easy.
But the trash…oh the trash… they ate us, spit us out, and came back for more. We basically beat the trash from the floor of the dungeon.
I see so many posts saying, “oh just dodge the red circles.” That is not the issue. The issue is lack of well designed telegraphed moves for attacks that are not ground targeted (there is no red circle on these attacks), leaving little to no reaction time. The mobs that do telegraph are often obscured by so many particle effects you can’t see the telegraph or only get a glimpse of it too late.
I think some of the difficulty people are having with the dungeons is getting used to new combat mechanics. However, I believe more of the issue is related to poor telegraph design, poor combat visibility particle design (especially for melee), and some issues with burst damage.
A friend of mine and decided to see how nasty CM explore mode was with just two of us. We didn’t expect to do anything but pull a mob or two and see how hard they hit.
We took a guardian and a warrior. We were both 46. The auto attacks from the ranged pistol mobs would take the guardians life to 1/3 or 1/2. These are not red circle attacks, not even telegraphed attacks. Just one mob with one auto attack. Protection (33% less damage) didn’t really reduce that damage at all.
We used LOS to slowly kill the two we pulled from a group of 4. We then switched to as many knock down and stuns as possible. Wall of reflection did great on gun wielding mobs. However, ranged attacks went right through shield of absorption… it absorbed nothing.
Our little experiment leaves me with the belief that for trash, control (stuns, daze, interrupt, knockdowns) is really the only thing that is really effect with how these dungeons are currently designed.
I know that GW 2 PvE combat is basically an experiment, an attempt at something different from the trinity. I just think they could have executed it much better than its current state. Hopefully some of the issues are addressed in the future.
Dungeons are not hard at all.Even for pugs.And i do only such runs,because i don’t have dedicated group to do instances with.
Dungeons need a little more balancing but even without it I find them fine as they are.
TxS – Tequatl Slayer Alliance (EU)
First he says that he plays a gaurdian which is one of the better classes in game, have great defenses and a number of skills to buff and or reduce over all damage done to them. Secondly he states he and his team are specing, built, and designed to do dungeons from the get go. He also confrims my earlier statement by saying he and his team are all giving boons(buffer), have a CCer(controller) and are debuffing bosses(debuffer) so they have the trinity i spoke of earlier.
Sorry for snipping, but this is the point i wish to answer to.
I go in dungeon in my leveling spec. That is, Zeal + Radiance maxed and a little Virtues.
What i do when i go in dungeon is have a plan. I don’t go in dungeon in Sword + Torch (my favorite leveling weapons). I go with Mace + Shield. And have Staff as Secondary.
I always ask my party what fields they have and what finishers they have. We build combos, based on what we face. An Hard hitting boss? I ask people to Leap in my Symbols to spread Retaliation and hit my Virtue of Resolve to give Aegis as soon as i have them. I have no special survival abilities, but i can change my utility slot out of combat, and i often do so. For the trash group, i often ask people to bring out AoE and cripplers, and i prepare my Wall of Reflection for the ranged groups.
We base tactics on what we have. Some of us are 30, some are 80. I have done AC story mode four times now to show them to all my guildies in turn, and every time with a different group.
And, all the classes have this choice in versatility, not only the guardian. As the boss and even some trash do an insanely amount of damage (even to heavy armor types), this brings it to the “you can tank with any class” statement. What you need is Aegis and Protection buff, self-made or brought by your companion. You can take turn in tanking (we always do it, even when we went with me and 4 light armors).
But if people insist in going in dungeon using only the three abilities that works leveling.. well i don’t mind, but don’t tell me this is “speccing”. This is knowing your class, and not only the three-four abilities you use outside.
Ah, last time i checked, every class can buff, every class can debuff, and every class can CC. Any and every of them. Even in leveling spec, you only have to switch weapons. Check it out. I always do before entering the dungeon with my group.
A point to you: i never do Pugs. I always do dungeon with my guildies on vent. So it is easier to coordinate and combo. That could be nearly impossible to do without vent, and bring the frustration you are telling, and the need to be “specialized” so coordinating becomes less important.
But i assure you, speccing is not mandatory. It only helps. What’s really necessary is coordination and a full knowledge of your class, especially the combinations.
Fabsm
Guardian of Moonlight Shadow [MLS]
Guardian of Moonlight Shadow [MLS]
31 I go to the very first instance AC and guess what happens? Its all about rez spam! In what demented designer universe did you come up with the idea that the very first entry level dungeon is to be the single worst gaming experience of any ones life?
Do you people at Anet have some sadistic desire or what exactly?
If this is the entry level instance its no wounder people are asking fro LEVEL 80 IN YELLOW gear or better for STORY MODE level 30!!!
If you want to succeed in ascalon story mode, and you are a level 30 player in moderate gear, you are faced with 2 options:
1. Level up to 80, buy perfect gear and come back with a massive crutch.
2. Play better: dodge better, use better skill sets and weapon choices, make better use of combo fields.
The instances require teamwork and good play, which is more vital than good gear and higher levels.
The third option would be to just skip dungeons all together and leave – and dont buy any expansions for GW2. Cause ANET has made it perfectly clear that they are not changing their stance on this and only few % of ppl will ever bother with these dungeons.
So far my only problem with dungeons has been when things get heated and effects are blinding me. Particularly in CoE, there is so much crap happening on-screen that I can’t detect visual cues to dodge and I get gibbed.
Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief
Resident Thief
Easily doable as a level 30. Simply be better. Done it first time, pug group, 3 days after release.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken.
I’m going to have to go ahead and disagree with pretty much everything you said. I don’t want ANet to nerf the dungeons because you noobs can’t figure out how to dodge.
Me and my friend have had absolutely no problem completing ANY dungeon, explorable or not. The bigger problem in my eyes is the difficulties do not MATCH UP- for instance, explorable path 1 and 3 are on completely different levels of “hard”.
Maybe you need to take a step back, run out of the dungeon, and focus on dynamic events. Dungeons were meant to be hard, and you’re supposed to be good to do them.
Platinum – Guardian
Technical Strength – Engineer
Dungeon Master – FotM 46
Technical Strength – Engineer
Dungeon Master – FotM 46
We run with 5 dps specced people and do just fine in every explorable… I don’t see where this support/control/dps thing fits in. I sure as hell don’t need it to finish a dungeon. The only “support” we have is 1-2 utility skills each person brings that help other members of the group. But you don’t need to spec support to finish any dungeon in this game, story or explorable.
If you’re rez-spamming to finish a dungeon, it isn’t the dungeon’s fault, it is on you. Learn the moves of the bosses/trash that you’re dying on and learn how to avoid their attacks.
Today my warrior hit 30 + so i decided to get random group and go to AC Story guess what they all were sentient beings and we had maybe 1 or 2 deaths trough whole dungeon.
Either play better or uninstall. Story mode dungeons are good as they are.
I agree with what the last two people said. Dungeons should be hard and you actually need to think on your feet to survive and complete it.
It also forces you to find a guild which have people that don’t quit after they died one or two times.
Playing with friends/guild is the way to go in explorable dungeons.
Please nerf bag types instead of class skills!
I tried AC when I was at the correct level and our whole party couldn’t get past the second room!! Everyone left.
I tried it later on but the same happened, everyone left and couldn’t believe it was so difficult.
Just tried the Manor one and again the same. These dungeons have insane difficulty and have zero enjoyment for me, when the rest of the game is such a joy to play.
Why are they so hard? In fact not hard as that would be doable, these are impossible and not fun.
All dungeons need to be rebalanced, they are simply not fun at the moment. Balance is totally out of whack between dungeons too. A perfect example of what is fun is what we saw in GW1, not sure why they messed up big time this time around.
Personally I do not really find them hard, many do. But for both sides on the spectrum, they are not fun to do because every trash mob has a million health. Most bosses are unoriginal auto-attackers with only one unique skill. It’s simply not fun except for those who enjoy grinding, which is exactly against what they said what would be the design principles of this game!
AC is pretty do-able for a lv30, but it’s a mind numbingly grind even to run through it once. People are asking for lv80 geared players so that their boring experience is shorter.
Yeah I agree with others that the best option right now is to simply skip dungeons, because not one of them is remotely worth doing after they broke the rewards for them. Hopefully they’ll fix it, but given their deafening silence on the multitude of issues they just introduced, I don’t hold out much hope of that actually happening.
They seem to really love making sure players don’t get appropriate rewards for effort, to the point where each update makes the game worse.
Yeah, they suck. I have already told at least 8 people who asked me not to buy the game unless they redo the dungeons in its entirety from encounters to rewards. If they want to test their mettle against other people they should play battlefield.