Guild Wars 2

The HotW hole in the wall has been closed. I’m not complaining about that change.

Just when I was thinking you guys had learned that stealth nerfs kill all trust we have in you, you do it again, nerfing the HotW hole in the wall without telling us.

Once again, we’re left wondering “what else have they changed without telling us, because we’d get mad?”.
sigh

If you mean the path 1 exploit at the end, then they don’t HAVE to point out each and every exploit/bug that they fix. The list would probably get very long, very fast.

Auesis.7301:

If you mean the path 1 exploit at the end, then they don’t HAVE to point out each and every exploit/bug that they fix. The list would probably get very long, very fast.

They don’t have to do anything. But they really should.

Honestly the Hole in the Wall exploit was stupid… It got more groups killed than anything and made the last boss un fun. That is all. Stop sucking and exploiting to get past content.

Yeah thanks for your contribution…
Unfortunately the topic is about stealth nerfs, not whether or not the hole in the wall exploit was good or bad.

I would agree that stealth nerfs on the whole may not be a good thing, but I would argue that the example you cite here is inappropriate to your point. It’s not a nerf but a bug/exploit fix. If you think about it, would opening the hole in the wall be a buff to the dungeon? No. It’s just broken. Broken thing got fixed without any fanfare. No problems here. Again, I agree with the spirit of your post, but let’s call it a nerf when it’s a nerf.

Edit: Ok, more on another point I think you’re getting at. What guarantee do we ever have that everything they change is posted? You have to believe that there are metrics they change all the time with the economy that they do not divulge out of necessity or corporate interest. I believe that they already tell us a fair deal and you should keep pushing for accuracy in their posts but I wouldn’t expect them to tell you everything.

Perhaps the developers just wanted to give people a fun surprise in their first HotW run after the patch…

nightwulf.1986:

…but I would argue that the example you cite here is inappropriate to your point. It’s not a nerf but a bug/exploit fix. If you think about it, would opening the hole in the wall be a buff to the dungeon? No. It’s just broken.=

Agreed.

Closing up the hole was a good idea. Closing up the hole without decreasing the butcher’s health was a bad idea.

It’s a very, very easy fight that takes faaaaaaaaaaaaar too long, even if you make sure the protection totem stays down. At least it went a bit quicker when everyone could just lay into him in melee without a care in the world (although even then it was fairly slow because his health is ridiculous).

High health only adds difficulty if the boss is actually challenging (and even then it’s a pretty lame way of doing things). If you gave Lupi more hp, he would be tougher because you’d have to go that much longer without messing up. The butcher? You have no chance of losing to the butcher. His health pool just makes him tedious and sleep-inducing.

They fixed TA too,can no longer get up on the vines and range him.
Then again these were obviously exploits,so it was a fix not a nerf

Clark Skinner.4902:

Yeah thanks for your contribution…
Unfortunately the topic is about stealth nerfs, not whether or not the hole in the wall exploit was good or bad.

It’s not a “stealth” nerf because it’s not a nerf, it’s a fix for a rather obvious exploit and they had no reason or obligation to state that they fixed exploits…

Find a stealth nerf they did for something that should actually BE in the patch notes and then remake your post, then there can be an actual discussion.

Definitely wasn’t a “nerf” was a fix to an exploit method of killing a boss.

I really hope your group tried it and died though!

Yeah…I don’t think I’d call this a stealth nerf. This is a stealth fix. if they said at all on the patch notes “made improvements to dungeons”, this qualifies and stating it.

Keep in mind, you paid for this game, but there’s no monthly fee. They don’t have to tell us anything about what they do to the game. They also don’t have to read our thoughts and arguments on the forum and even chime in to talk to us directly. They also don’t have to read their personal message folder, but they do.

I think this team is doing great work with the community of players. One exploit closed and they didn’t tell anyone about it? Was it really that much of a surprise? Cmon..

I’m okay with this. It means that some developer somewhere at least has eyes on Honor of the Waves.

Clark Skinner.4902:

The HotW hole in the wall has been closed. I’m not complaining about that change.

Just when I was thinking you guys had learned that stealth nerfs kill all trust we have in you, you do it again, nerfing the HotW hole in the wall without telling us.

Once again, we’re left wondering “what else have they changed without telling us, because we’d get mad?”.
sigh

From when Anet dev team begged forgiveness to not release a patchnote full of every single fix and / or exploit removed, together with the current content of the patch? Also, if you don’t trust Anet because of unlisted fix, guess what, Anet is not interested on your opinion too hehe
If this behaviour hurts your feeling as a player, feel free to leave. Some left for this reason too. Nothing wrong, just … unprofessional behaviour.

You know how some game designers decided to mess with pirates by letting them play the copy at first and then doing taking everything away ?

Be glad that Anet didn’t get some inspiration from them.

And it’s rare for Anet to include exploit fixes in their update notes (or it will be extremely vague). One of their excuse is “to not give any new ideas”.

There’s no reason to include exploit fixes since you shouldn’t be exploiting in the first place.

Uhm. I still remember a dev posting on the forum the dev team have fun to let the community discover a bug/exploit (that guy skipped the part “..and we will permaban them too” lol) . I doubt they hide the entire list “to not give any new ideas”. In a few minutes someone will post “Hey, the hole is gone” “Fine, let’s find an other kind of exploit”. A game where the core is how to exploit, i never played an mmo like this one, i swear lol

Honestly, you just sound like angry kids complaining about it like that. There is no reason they should have included a fixed exploit in the patch notes.

roachsrealm.9284:

Yeah…I don’t think I’d call this a stealth nerf. This is a stealth fix. if they said at all on the patch notes “made improvements to dungeons”, this qualifies and stating it.

Exactly, it’s not like the Ranger Shortbow Cross Fire animation glitch fix. When they do stuff that reduces your DPS they come straight out and tell you. They don’t tell you it’s just an animation fix and leave it at that.

Oh wait…on second thought, no they don’t put that sort of thing in notes either.

My bad…carry on.

The fix was necessary and understandable. I just wish they had addressed the core issue at the same time. The Butcher is a mechanically uninteresting fight that goes on way too long, just like the other HP-sponge HotW end bosses.

grrarg.3701:

The Butcher is a mechanically uninteresting fight that goes on way too long, just like the other HP-sponge HotW end bosses.

Supposedly the dungeon team will release updates “soon” (probably in a few months) to enhance the dungeon experience for other places besides AC.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

There’s a couple reasons we tend not to put certain things like exploits into patch notes. I’ll go into them a bit
1. We don’t want to highlight a spot where an exploit existed, since people who would have never found the spot then go and try to find a way around our fix, or can glean something from it that inspires them to try similar things elsewhere.
2. In terms of localization of patch note text into different languages, editing, and writing the patch note up, it costs money and time for multiple people. Dedicating resources to explain we closed a particular exploit just isn’t worth the time/resources for every single one, so we’re okay with cutting it from the notes, especially if we have a lot of patch notes that are much more valuable to disseminate out, like Engineer changes and other such things.

I’m not really attached to calling it a nerf, it’s just the first word that popped into my head. The point is transparency.

1. You could just say “fixed an exploit in HotW path 1” and given no details. Covered.
2. If the translators know how to say “fixed an exploit” for other areas, they know how to say “fixed an exploit in HotW”. It doesn’t take time to write that, I just did. It’s not like there’s a character limit and you have to squeeze lines into the notes. Everything can be included. Quaggan breathing made it in.

There’s a more important cost than those few seconds, to consider in communication with customers. That is trust. Don’t cut corners on trust.

I don’t see why it’s important since it only impacts exploiters. I’d actually prefer them to not announce these fixes so exploiters panic when they realize they have to fight the boss the correct way.

ArenaNet have done good things and questionable things with this patch.
This is not one of them

Killing the statues then the boss makes the fight ultra easier. Why would you bother yourself with going to the buggy spot and let the boss hit your whole team every attack when he is totally buffed?

On the other hand, they should check HotW bosses HP. They have a incredibly huge HP pool, and easy fights, like p2 ice monsters, take forever

Doesn’t the wiki usually end up with notes on changes not included in the patch notes or is that censored?

Isn’t there another well-known exploit in P1 which actually may be longer than fighting him the legit way if you dont have good ranged DPS?

HELLruler.4820:

Killing the statues then the boss makes the fight ultra easier. Why would you bother yourself with going to the buggy spot and let the boss hit your whole team every attack when he is totally buffed?

On the other hand, they should check HotW bosses HP. They have a incredibly huge HP pool, and easy fights, like p2 ice monsters, take forever

Except the boss doesnt hit the whole team and it is still faster with high DPS professions even with protection on to just wail away. Faster still if the party had boon removal professions with them.

The problem is not this exploit, its finding players who like HoTW even at its peak, it is not a popular dungeon at all. Once ppl got all their tokens, they leave.

I liked Hotw initally when I was unsure of the mechanics. The Werewolf boss fight and even Hammertime Fimbul were really fun.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

2. In terms of localization of patch note text into different languages, editing, and writing the patch note up, it costs money and time for multiple people. Dedicating resources to explain we closed a particular exploit just isn’t worth the time/resources for every single one, so we’re okay with cutting it from the notes, especially if we have a lot of patch notes that are much more valuable to disseminate out, like Engineer changes and other such things.

So your saying you don’t have it in you or your staff to go do something as simple as google translate into another language? Which takes all of 60 seconds max per language? Interesting stuff there mate.

?????????60??????

Forums don’t even support Chinese.

AtlasSi.9130:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

2. In terms of localization of patch note text into different languages, editing, and writing the patch note up, it costs money and time for multiple people. Dedicating resources to explain we closed a particular exploit just isn’t worth the time/resources for every single one, so we’re okay with cutting it from the notes, especially if we have a lot of patch notes that are much more valuable to disseminate out, like Engineer changes and other such things.

So your saying you don’t have it in you or your staff to go do something as simple as google translate into another language? Which takes all of 60 seconds max per language? Interesting stuff there mate.

Yes. Let’s have ANet use google translate for their patch notes. That is a terribly intelligent idea.

Clark Skinner.4902:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

There’s a couple reasons we tend not to put certain things like exploits into patch notes. I’ll go into them a bit
1. We don’t want to highlight a spot where an exploit existed, since people who would have never found the spot then go and try to find a way around our fix, or can glean something from it that inspires them to try similar things elsewhere.
2. In terms of localization of patch note text into different languages, editing, and writing the patch note up, it costs money and time for multiple people. Dedicating resources to explain we closed a particular exploit just isn’t worth the time/resources for every single one, so we’re okay with cutting it from the notes, especially if we have a lot of patch notes that are much more valuable to disseminate out, like Engineer changes and other such things.

I’m not really attached to calling it a nerf, it’s just the first word that popped into my head. The point is transparency.

1. You could just say “fixed an exploit in HotW path 1” and given no details. Covered.

Well ye. Not so hard or so long to write “fixed an exploit on HotW” without details. Nor so expensive and resourceful adding 1 line more.
But maybe Robert is scared who didn’t knew the exploit would ask around, learn how was executed and use it somewhere else. Same time, most patch (assuming they fixed them) would have 1/10/50 lines of “exploits fixed on dungeon X”. As i said, this is a game where the core is exploit, lol.
I’m serious, i never played an mmo where the focus of the community and 99% of the pugs are focused on them and use the new one when old are fixed.
So annoying.
I don’t get how and why this game allow them, and how when an exploit is fixed, next pug will show you an other exploit, ruining a sane run again.

AtlasSi.9130:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

2. In terms of localization of patch note text into different languages, editing, and writing the patch note up, it costs money and time for multiple people. Dedicating resources to explain we closed a particular exploit just isn’t worth the time/resources for every single one, so we’re okay with cutting it from the notes, especially if we have a lot of patch notes that are much more valuable to disseminate out, like Engineer changes and other such things.

So your saying you don’t have it in you or your staff to go do something as simple as google translate into another language? Which takes all of 60 seconds max per language? Interesting stuff there mate.

I do not think google translate a proper and professional manner to the notes of the patch to translate. There is often crazy to translations and grammatically incorrect sentence constructions.

Oolune.4357:

Yes. Let’s have ANet use google translate for their patch notes. That is a terribly intelligent idea.

That one made me facepalm too. I just threw his sentence into the translator and the output didn’t even remotely resemble a proper German sentence. His inability to use “your” and “you’re” correctly didn’t help though…

I don’t mind them not posting updates about closing exploits/glitches. Nice to know this information, but I can understand why they don’t.

I am concerned it sounds like they were proud of the Engineer changes and and consider that so important to get out!! I honestly don’t believe anyone up there plays an Engineer on a regular basis. But that is a whole separate topic.

Ginva is a super easy boss anyway. Now you have to actually play instead of alt-tabbing with your auto-attack on. huge nerf I know.. what a tragedy.

Clark Skinner.4902:

There’s a more important cost than those few seconds, to consider in communication with customers. That is trust. Don’t cut corners on trust.

Dramaqueen much.

If they put in every fix (this is just one of them, obviously) then you don’t just have one line that they need to add, they would have a whole list of fixes. Just take a look at the list of fixes for storylines which are a small part of the game in comparison.

Transparency and trust have nothing to do with it here. Why would they need to put it in the patch notes if it was an exploit. I mean, whenever I join a dungeon group that simply says, stand here and stand there. And then defeat the boss a real easy way, then Im like, yeah im going to report this and hope it’s fixed next time because this stuff is dumb.

It’s pathetic you’re making a big deal when you cannot exploit anymore, because that is a given. You shouldn’t exploit and certainly you shouldn’t expect that you can exploit everything. And if it’s fixed then it’s fixed, you can’t do anything about it anyway.

Those of you saying that not being informed about closing an exploit is a breach of trust may want to consider the document you signed allowing you to play this game specifically stating that you wouldn’t use exploits. Trust is a two-way street, exploiters.

I don’t understand how not being informed that the exploit was closed is a big deal. You had to kill the boss the normal way the first time you discovered the exploit was gone. Such a minor inconvenience.

Why the hell do you even care when they don’t tell you they fixed an exploit ?

“Customers trust " ? The same type of customer that breaks the EULA ? Because let’s face it, the only persons who deeply care about that are those who don’t want to run a dungeon like “always” and one day discover that they can’t resort to exploits to gain rewards.

You can wonder why Anet doesn’t include changes that aren’t exploits in the update notes, but asking for them to tell you when they fix an exploit so you don’t waste your time and possibly get killed is a little exaggerated.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

There’s a couple reasons we tend not to put certain things like exploits into patch notes. I’ll go into them a bit
1. We don’t want to highlight a spot where an exploit existed, since people who would have never found the spot then go and try to find a way around our fix, or can glean something from it that inspires them to try similar things elsewhere.
2. In terms of localization of patch note text into different languages, editing, and writing the patch note up, it costs money and time for multiple people. Dedicating resources to explain we closed a particular exploit just isn’t worth the time/resources for every single one, so we’re okay with cutting it from the notes, especially if we have a lot of patch notes that are much more valuable to disseminate out, like Engineer changes and other such things.

We just decided not to put time and energy into a patch note for this particular exploit. Hope that clears things up a bit.
Personally, I don’t consider closing an exploit a “nerf”. I consider it closing a bug that led to player abuse.

Wouldn’t you want to know your fix is effective? I realize it’s the short term problem of having new exploits, but I would think it’d be better to see where the exploits occur and see if a pattern is there.

Plunder.8195:

AtlasSi.9130:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

2. In terms of localization of patch note text into different languages, editing, and writing the patch note up, it costs money and time for multiple people. Dedicating resources to explain we closed a particular exploit just isn’t worth the time/resources for every single one, so we’re okay with cutting it from the notes, especially if we have a lot of patch notes that are much more valuable to disseminate out, like Engineer changes and other such things.

So your saying you don’t have it in you or your staff to go do something as simple as google translate into another language? Which takes all of 60 seconds max per language? Interesting stuff there mate.

Yes. Let’s have ANet use google translate for their patch notes. That is a terribly intelligent idea.

Can you not see any other possible ways this could of been put? Not once did I state it was a smart idea. I was simply trying to imply just how stupidly easy something like this could be. Instead of giving a witty excuse to avoid something simple…

I’m glad they fixed it. Although I can no longer kick back and do some reading while autoattacking the boss, the fight is much, much quicker. Our group just pulls him over to the protection totem and fights him there. The incidential DPS takes down the totem super fast, so the fight ends about 33% earlier than before. The only difference is that every now and then you have to move out of the whirlwind.

Can this thread be closed? People here don’t understand what goes into game production/localization, and the dev already explained all he needs to on this situation. No one here needs (or deserves) any further explanation.