Why would you put important lore in a Raid?

Why would you put important lore in a Raid?

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Posted by: Oldirtbeard.9834

Oldirtbeard.9834

Remember that time when ANet promised that no important lore or plots would be put into raids out side of the main story?

Well first Raid laid the ground work for LW Season 3, that’s sort of like watching a new season while missing the season premier because you’re not cool enough despite the fact you paid the cable bill.

Then in the Second Raid they included some nobody named Sauly D, yeah nobody important at all just one of the most important lore figures in the whole Guild Wars franchise, you know that guy that started a small group of nobodies called The White Mantle.

Tell me again why ANet thinks it is important to screw a filthy casual like me out of important lore?

I think a Dev needs to give a good reason for it other than go to a cleared instance and play forensics files.

If you insist on putting really important storylines in Raids then I insist there better be a storymode that just rewards junk you’d normally get from doing a personal story chapter, no insites, hell no ascended drops unless you do achievements or something.

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Posted by: Fornax.7928

Fornax.7928

Totally agree. Lock the loot, give no achievements but please let casual players have access to the story and lore. Give the raid maps an open world version for exploration and lore. Please stop walling off story content.

“So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by
entropy. I’m spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I’m going
to brush its teeth. So there.”-

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I don’t often agree with you, but I do agree with this one. The story is fractured enough seeing as no new players can play Season 1 at all. They boiled down the entire year and a half into a three minute video.

I’d like to play this stuff too, but I don’t want to raid to do it.

And for those of you who say going into an empty raid instance (which is problematical anyway) is the same thing, I can assure you it’s not.

Nor is watching a video on youtube.

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Posted by: Oldirtbeard.9834

Oldirtbeard.9834

Totally agree. Lock the loot, give no achievements but please let casual players have access to the story and lore. Give the raid maps an open world version for exploration and lore. Please stop walling off story content.

Exactly what I’m saying.

Although I think that there should be achievements that can be inspected by Raiders that show you have learned some mechanics, for those people that want to learn in a stress free environment.

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Posted by: Oldirtbeard.9834

Oldirtbeard.9834

I don’t often agree with you, but I do agree with this one. The story is fractured enough seeing as no new players can play Season 1 at all. They boiled down the entire year and a half into a three minute video.

I’d like to play this stuff too, but I don’t want to raid to do it.

And for those of you who say going into an empty raid instance (which is problematical anyway) is the same thing, I can assure you it’s not.

Nor is watching a video on youtube.

Like a broken clock occasionally I’m right I suppose. How are the Warden folks, do they still think I’m a loose cannon?

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Posted by: fluffdragon.1523

fluffdragon.1523

Well considering how at this point ANet has gone back on just about every promise they have made and the Manifesto (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY) is absolutely dead …?

Yeah, I just … I’ve honestly stopped playing story things anymore, because I missed it all and cannot be kittened to go grind through a slog of nonsense to figure out stuff. And even LS3 has been a remarkable dearth of anything but a drawn out recap.

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Posted by: Baseleader.4128

Baseleader.4128

I’m unsure if they ever said there would be now important story or lore in the raids. Somene should find what they actually said. What they definitely did say was that you wouldn’t have to play raids to enjoy the major LS story and they’ve kept that promise. The raids prove extra lore or backstory, but the LS story itself stands and can be enjoyed without raidknowledge. Maybe just going in a cleared instance and reading all the things, watching the cutscenes and getting the dialogue with Glenna isnt the same as experiencing the raid, but i feel as its a fair way to make the content available for more casual players while giving the raiders a little more of an epic feel.

You get all the story from a cleared instance that a raider gets, the only difference really is that you don’t get the epic experience raiders get. But that experience is epic thanks to the difficulty. Beating Samarog or Deimos really easily would diminish the experience imo. Deimos is supposed to be an insanely strong creature and if you solo him easily it just wouldn’t be the same.

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Posted by: Oldirtbeard.9834

Oldirtbeard.9834

I’m unsure if they ever said there would be now important story or lore in the raids. Somene should find what they actually said. What they definitely did say was that you wouldn’t have to play raids to enjoy the major LS story and they’ve kept that promise. The raids prove extra lore or backstory, but the LS story itself stands and can be enjoyed without raidknowledge. Maybe just going in a cleared instance and reading all the things, watching the cutscenes and getting the dialogue with Glenna isnt the same as experiencing the raid, but i feel as its a fair way to make the content available for more casual players while giving the raiders a little more of an epic feel.

You get all the story from a cleared instance that a raider gets, the only difference really is that you don’t get the epic experience raiders get. But that experience is epic thanks to the difficulty. Beating Samarog or Deimos really easily would diminish the experience imo. Deimos is supposed to be an insanely strong creature and if you solo him easily it just wouldn’t be the same.

No they have not, I did not enjoy LW Season 3 as much as I could have with out the LORE FROM RAIDS.

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Posted by: Baseleader.4128

Baseleader.4128

The lore from the raids is utterly available to you. Just not the sensation and the feel of being a part of the story of the raid.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

The game has always included lore that is gated by type of content. There’s lore in dungeons and as the OP (and others responding) know, even dungeons aren’t “accessible” to everyone (they are much more so today, with HoT builds than originally, but they certainly weren’t for many people the first year or three).

So I would ask, is the lore available in raids important ? Or is it just another example of alternative avenues for people to learn about Tyria?

I’m not against the game offering ‘empty’ instances for people to explore and learn. Neither do I think it’s a good use of ANet’s time; I’d rather see more raids, more new maps, or more just about anything else… and I say that as someone interested in the game’s lore who hasn’t completed a single raid wing.

tl;dr the game has always had gated lore; I am not bothered by some of it being locked within raids.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

While it’s a cool throwback to GW1 lore, will it actually matter to the non-raid story at all? Glenna is going to be keeping this discovery on the DL at the Priory.

And like the first set of raids, anyone can accompany a raider who cleared a raid wing for that week to enter and explore without needing to do the fight. For everyone else who want to learn, there’s always Wooden Potatoes or any of the other YTers who record and share raids or talk about lore.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

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Posted by: MashMash.1645

MashMash.1645

Remember that time when ANet promised that no important lore or plots would be put into raids out side of the main story?

Well first Raid laid the ground work for LW Season 3, that’s sort of like watching a new season while missing the season premier because you’re not cool enough despite the fact you paid the cable bill.

Then in the Second Raid they included some nobody named Sauly D, yeah nobody important at all just one of the most important lore figures in the whole Guild Wars franchise, you know that guy that started a small group of nobodies called The White Mantle.

Tell me again why ANet thinks it is important to screw a filthy casual like me out of important lore?

I think a Dev needs to give a good reason for it other than go to a cleared instance and play forensics files.

If you insist on putting really important storylines in Raids then I insist there better be a storymode that just rewards junk you’d normally get from doing a personal story chapter, no insites, hell no ascended drops unless you do achievements or something.

Ideally, all raid content would be:

1. Completely unrelated to anything in Guild Wars 1.
2. Completely unrelated to anything connected in any way to the Guild Wars 2 story.

Pre-Ordered HoT | Recently started to get what I paid for – may spend $$$

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

The rational thing the devs could have done was to make some type of difficulty settings. Sadly they didn’t, and ended up alienating a portion of their player base in the process.

And before anyone jumps in here about “but its legendary armor! needs to be cray difficult!”… Having to kill 150 bosses, for time gated LI, is a feat for any player, let alone casuals.

The devs bombed raids on many fronts. They didn’t make the content inclusive for all, made players wait 2 years for armor and encourage those who want to experience the story to go into a finished instance or watch a video… None of that was or is professional.

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Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

Obviously I agree with this point of view.

Glad to see people starting to make more noise about the issue, here, on reddit, in articles on sites like massivelyop, etc. Hopefully the management at Anet and on the raid team will start to take more notice and do something.

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Posted by: Mitch.4781

Mitch.4781

All story elements, cutscenes and lore can be found on youtube or wiki. You aren’t missing anything.

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Posted by: Rune.4231

Rune.4231

Been playing Guild Wars since GW1 launch and Saul’s story was one of the bigger mysteries in the series. Having this locked in raids with no story/easy mode to experience that lore it is really messed up. Entering a cleared instance, as I see many people suggest, isn’t a great solution because that isn’t a long-term solution. In a year, it may be very hard to find a cleared instance. Even now I’m told it can be hard to find one unless you play during specific hours.

Self-contained stories that start and end in a raid would have been fine with me personally, but that’s clearly not the way they plan on doing raids so having a story/easy mode is a must in my opinion.

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Posted by: Miellyn.6847

Miellyn.6847

Been playing Guild Wars since GW1 launch and Saul’s story was one of the bigger mysteries in the series. Having this locked in raids with no story/easy mode to experience that lore it is really messed up. Entering a cleared instance, as I see many people suggest, isn’t a great solution because that isn’t a long-term solution. In a year, it may be very hard to find a cleared instance. Even now I’m told it can be hard to find one unless you play during specific hours.

Self-contained stories that start and end in a raid would have been fine with me personally, but that’s clearly not the way they plan on doing raids so having a story/easy mode is a must in my opinion.

But this is a self-contained story in GW2.


The White Mantle in GW2 has nothing to do with the White Mantle in GW1, it is just the name. Caudecus just took the name for his organisation because of the stories from the past. If you would have paid attention in the last story instance you would know this and you wouldn’t complain. The only people who know Saul D’Alessio are GW1 players.

Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
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Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant

(edited by Miellyn.6847)

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

Well considering how at this point ANet has gone back on just about every promise they have made and the Manifesto.

That Manifesto was 7 years ago and most of the people talking in that YouTube video don’t even work there anymore…

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Posted by: ButterPeanut.9746

ButterPeanut.9746

I could maybe understand the argument for w3 as Xera is referenced a bit elsewhere.

W4 lore has absolutely nothing to do with the current LS. That is what they said they’d be careful about. OP you arent upset because the lore is related at all to GW2 LS, but simply because you like the lore from gw1. Two very different things.

(edited by ButterPeanut.9746)

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

All story elements, cutscenes and lore can be found on youtube or wiki. You aren’t missing anything.

All game elements can be found on youtube or wiki. Does that mean that we don’t need to play the game anymore?

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

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Posted by: Tarasicodissa.7084

Tarasicodissa.7084

I wonder how many people complain about this because they’re geniunely interested in the story (and experiencing it first-hand) and how many people only use this as an excuse to get easy rewards for no effort because they’re lazy.

I used to clear dungeons on a regular basis, now I do the same with raids. All this time, I’ve never actually payed any attention to the story in-game, because it’s kinda hard when you have to focus on the mechanics. I find it much more enjoyable and relaxing to experience the story from someone’s video/summary, where I can actually focus on the story aspects. Of course you can feel differently, but I still think most people use “story” as a poor excuse of their laziness.

Also gotta agree with what Illconceived Was Na said, every bit of lore in this game is gated behind some kind of content. Some is in open world, some in personal story, some in raids. Deal with it. There are players who miss out on story because they’re too bad to go through personal story. Do they make insane complaints and demand an easier version? No. They either “git gud” to experience the story on their own, or find someone else to help them experience it (either in-game carry, or uploading a video summary).

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Well, to compare and contrast, let’s look at the GW1 elite areas as precedent.

The Underworld (including the corrupted TotPK) and Fissure of Woe were side stories unrelated to the Prophecies storyline (and have been implied to be cyclical, to boot). Some aspects were picked up in Nightfall, but all you really needed to know was that there were other dark gods that were allied to Abaddon: Dhuum and Menzies never really played an important role in Nightfall except as allies of Abaddon. If the villain of Nightfall had been Dhuum or Menzies, it might have been different, but by using a new villain, elite areas involving Dhuum and Menzies felt more like loose tie-ins than a prologue. Furthermore, the long period of time until Nightfall was released – and the associated power creep – meant that by the time it really mattered, the areas in question were accessible to most players.

Sorrow’s Furnace – and, for that matter, the Titan Quests – essentially acted as ‘epilogues’ to Prophecies. They were an extension to the story, not a vital part of it. Both were referenced in EoTN, but by the time EoTN hit, both were fairly accessible to most players (particularly when heroes were available).

The Factions elite areas were side stories that provided some more context on enemies that were present in the regular zones, but were otherwise entirely self-contained.

The Domain of Anguish was an ‘epilogue’ to Nightfall, similar to Sorrow’s Furnace and the Titan Quests. Events there weren’t referenced elsewhere (except for Mallyx being a revenant legend) and while they did provide a little extra context, the story as a whole doesn’t suffer from their absence. Similar observations apply to the elite dungeon in EoTN.

Regarding the raids…

From what I know of the new raid, I’d actually consider it a suitable target for a raid. There might be some tie-in to future storylines that I don’t know about, but for the time being at least… it does feel more like a side-quest than an important part of the story. It touches on an important point in the world’s history, but as long as it doesn’t become a major plot point in the future, I don’t consider it to be a big deal.

The original wings, though: They’re the prequel to LS3, and it was obvious that they were the prequel to LS3 even before LS3 proper started. They’re an essential part of the story, that people who aren’t in the minority that are in a position to raid are missing out on.

Another consideration in the comparison is that there is a much bigger jump between regular play and raids in GW2 than there was between regular areas and elite areas in GW1. GW1 made it easy to get max gear (or at least pretty close to it – Superior Runes of Vigor were pretty expensive) and most of the elite areas weren’t made with grindy titles in mind – while GW2 raids were explicitly designed with the expectation that anyone planning to go all the way through would have full Ascended. Furthermore, playing in elite areas in GW1, with the possible exceptions of the Factions zones, pretty much felt just like you were playing anywhere else except that the enemies were harder. GW2 raids, however, are quite different to anywhere else: you need a larger group, there’s a greater focus on encounter mechanics, you have enrage counters and DPS checks calibrated so that you need to play almost perfectly, and so on.

I wonder how many people complain about this because they’re geniunely interested in the story (and experiencing it first-hand) and how many people only use this as an excuse to get easy rewards for no effort because they’re lazy.

Most people who’ve advocated for a story mode have suggested having substantially reduced rewards, or even none at all.

You could compare to the story mode dungeons, which were only ever played for the story and to unlock the explorables because the rewards sucked for the time investment.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Pregnantman.8259

Pregnantman.8259

As far as the world was concerned, Saul was dead or gone. We as players knew he was a drunken, gambler, thief etc, showed remorse when his men was killed and got taken away. Raid just showed his prison and added some interesting elements. Its fair to say this wing’s story isnt going be a basis for future stories.

I am in favor of a story mode with the condition that its not just an easier version of raid with less or no rewards – but its a different walkthrough like story dungeons, though I am not sure if its possible to make a mode like this.

My dream raid would be like a dungeon, for example you do a ‘story mode’ in which you clear the defense leading up to each first 3 wings(or paths) and get important information while at it. After clearing story mode, you can now open the raid instance and choose a wing like you do in dungeons.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

I have done LS and raids. I actually don’t see how raid story is that important to LS, it is more of a side story and fancy facts. You get all clues from LS anyway if you actually bother reading dialogs and letters in instances.

Also, if you are really interested about content from raids you can
1. just go raid, it is not THAT hard
2. check wiki and youtube – it is all there (cutscenes, clues, dialogs etc.)

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Lore and story are different things.

While the raid content covers an element of the lore that is quite interesting, its relevance to the story is extremely tangential.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

More lore and story is lost and forever out of reach from Season 1 of the Living World since that content has been removed from the game. The only thing you have accessible at the moment are some summaries, which is way less than what you have for raiding.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

I’m surprised people are upset over this, really. The story told in Bastion of the Penitent is totally tangential to anything that is going on in mainland Tyria, and is really just tying up a loose end from GW1. It’s a cool story, don’t get me wrong, but it has to be. Fighting a bunch of nameless, pointless, loreless encounters in a box devoid of features would be terrible. They have to have something compelling, but they’re being nice by not having it be main encounter stuff. If they had bosses like Caudecus or Lazarus in the raid, then I’d agree with you, but everything we’re seeing here is minor and side-note at best.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

YES they put lore in the raids
YES it’s good lore
NO it’s not exclusive if it’s relevant. Anything that can or will affect the story will be presented outside the raid instance as well. The raid is more of a preview or a ‘meanwhile in the enemies base’ kind of scene

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Posted by: ButterPeanut.9746

ButterPeanut.9746

Wing 4 lore is NOT important lore. It has no effect on any of the gw2 story of the past and LS going forward.

Wing 4 lore is a wrap up from GW1, nothing more. You may like that story, but it doesn’t make it important to gw2.

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Posted by: maxwelgm.4315

maxwelgm.4315

I’m gonna have to agree with both the OP (though I think this is good) and WoodenPotatoes (biggest lore buff on GW since ever) on his last video about the Bastion: Raids are the single best storytelling of the game right now.

They have completely wrecked competition among all playmodes. Fractals are barely tangential Lore and apart from Arkk, we’ve already all grown cold and bored of whatever kind of lore is there behind Swamp, Cliffside, etc. The Living World is getting better and better, but it also feels like they are holding back from concluding anything, and it all feels like some annoying filler before the next episode of a series. Last LW episode was amazing because it had actual closure, and it was extensive enough to make us feel like progressing through it, but it is still not that satisfactory.

The Bastion of the Penitent, on the other hand, completely killed it lorewise. There is even proper blending of story elements with the bosses, and the story actually plays out as the mechanics change during fight. This strictly didn’t happen during the previous wings: you would go into an arena, kill some kitten, and then something else would be triggered to progress the story. This time around things happen as the fight goes on, specially the last fight where you have key elements of lore revealed to you during battle.

Because I can raid myself, I say all of this within a positive view: it is awesome that this content is getting the proper treatment it deserves. I wouldn’t want the founder of the White Mantle to be done with by a silly meta event of sorts, neither by killing some veteran mobs. But I can also identify that it must leave a sour taste on others if the one game mode they [either can’t or] do not want to be associated with, is actually pulling out the most immersion with the lore. It doesn’t matter if the lore presented here is only relevant to the general GW background or if it ties into the main Elder Dragon storyline. What matters is that in raids, it is done the best way possible. Unlike literature, a game is not be experienced second-hand, and Raids definitely nail the RPG part of the GW2 MMORPG.

I also cannot stress this enough, that the new raid is not like the others: it is much more doable to simply pop up an “all welcome, just be patient and bring food” sort of squad in LFG and start learning the first boss face to face. It is in many ways much more forgiving and gives a much higher sense of progression than VG does (VG was, in my opinion, the worst offender when it comes to shunning people way from raids as soon as release).

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Well considering how at this point ANet has gone back on just about every promise they have made and the Manifesto (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY) is absolutely dead …?

Yeah, I just … I’ve honestly stopped playing story things anymore, because I missed it all and cannot be kittened to go grind through a slog of nonsense to figure out stuff. And even LS3 has been a remarkable dearth of anything but a drawn out recap.

Almost every? Really? Have you counted up every promise that they have made and determined whether the fulfilled it or not? You’re also misinterpreted the manifesto. The topics you posted have been discussed to death numerous times, and while some of it had merit to a degree, it largely is just full of opinion than fact.

As far as the OP, I thought that they stated that no raid story aspect would be crucial to the living story. If there was anything, it would be brought into the living story in some manner like they did in episode 1.

Actually, they specifically said that it can and should be tied to lore. The exact opposite of what the OP is claiming.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-Narrative-and-Lore/first#post6195598

(edited by Ayrilana.1396)

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

Well considering how at this point ANet has gone back on just about every promise they have made and the Manifesto (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY) is absolutely dead …?

Yeah, I just … I’ve honestly stopped playing story things anymore, because I missed it all and cannot be kittened to go grind through a slog of nonsense to figure out stuff. And even LS3 has been a remarkable dearth of anything but a drawn out recap.

Almost every? Really? Have you counted up every promise that they have made and determined whether the fulfilled it or not? You’re also misinterpreted the manifesto. The topics you posted have been discussed to death numerous times, and while some of it had merit to a degree, it largely is just full of opinion than fact.

As far as the OP, I thought that they stated that no raid story aspect would be crucial to the living story. If there was anything, it would be brought into the living story in some manner like they did in episode 1.

Actually, they specifically said that it can and should be tied to lore. The exact opposite of what the OP is claiming.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-Narrative-and-Lore/first#post6195598

I actually kind of forgot about that thread. Pretty much answers the OP right there, and as much as I want to discuss something months old, I think the talk’s been done enough times.

Suicidal Warrior.
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Posted by: Randulf.7614

Randulf.7614

I’m surprised people are upset over this, really. The story told in Bastion of the Penitent is totally tangential to anything that is going on in mainland Tyria, and is really just tying up a loose end from GW1. It’s a cool story, don’t get me wrong, but it has to be. Fighting a bunch of nameless, pointless, loreless encounters in a box devoid of features would be terrible. They have to have something compelling, but they’re being nice by not having it be main encounter stuff. If they had bosses like Caudecus or Lazarus in the raid, then I’d agree with you, but everything we’re seeing here is minor and side-note at best.

As a non raider, I agree with this.

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

I’m surprised people are upset over this, really. The story told in Bastion of the Penitent is totally tangential to anything that is going on in mainland Tyria, and is really just tying up a loose end from GW1. It’s a cool story, don’t get me wrong, but it has to be. Fighting a bunch of nameless, pointless, loreless encounters in a box devoid of features would be terrible. They have to have something compelling, but they’re being nice by not having it be main encounter stuff. If they had bosses like Caudecus or Lazarus in the raid, then I’d agree with you, but everything we’re seeing here is minor and side-note at best.

As a non raider, I agree with this.

I remember when the Zhaitan fight used to be fairly difficult with a group, the story instance had actually difficult encounters and Elite mobs. Hell the Legendary Mouth of Zhaitan was a real pain. The only complaint is that we ended such an epic instance with the cannons firing on Zhaitan, but I didn’t have too many issues with that at the time because we had to literally grind through all of his most powerful minions.

Now? I go back and do the story solo, everything is trivialized, it actually hurts to see the story so easy.

No one remembers the easy fights, only the fights where you struggled leave an impact. I do not want Raiding to be trivialized because of what happened with Zhaitan, although I could accept it now since it was a Main Storyline instance. But leave these Side-Story Raids alone.

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

Okay so first of all Anet stated that the lore in the raids is going to be its own thing kind of like a secondary story which it is, our primary focus are the elder dragons while the first raid touched on the white mantle.

At the start of season 3 they brought the lore and the white mantle to the open world and still are with ep 4 but the story is over all pretty cut off from the main plot of gw2 which is the elder dragons. Now raid 2 i’d say hardly even continued the story of the first raid or the lw season 3 in all regards it could be taken as its own thing.

The story took us to a prison where they kept Saul D locked for x reasons (theres cutscenes inside the raid go and view them for more info(the only info honestly)).

Now correct me if im wrong but Saul is in no way connected to the current story of the lw season 3, yes he was a white mantle yes he was the founder of the white mantle but he was never mentioned in game during the season from neither the cast of characters nor the white nantle and the same aplies in the first raid there was hardly like 1 reference to Saul in the entire raid.

Might i add that the conclusion of the raid didnt really impact the gw2 universe yes it gave an answer as to what the hell happened to Saul but in no way does it affect the world nor it leaves heavy ties unconcluded about Saul.

Now do i expect them to take some of the bosses and get them into the open wolrd and tie that with the story in any way? Absolutelly but just as the pc asked at the end of the raid Saul’s death will and should not be botherimg the outside world.

Pls bear in mind that all the Juicy lore can be viewed in a cleared instance by simply joining a cleared instance, talking with the npc there viewing the cutscenes and running around interucting with the inviroment.
Theres really no lore during the actual fights (well 2 lines from saul calling him self drunk thief and that when he was on the bring of death (since he was exciled ) he was found by the Mursaat, which is from gw1 and its nothing we didnt know).

One last thing i might add that for raids to work they need memorable encounters, that is achieved by having a strong character/s (either important lore wise or just how he/she react to stuff, what he/she did and his general character) as well as having hard fight so you get invested in the fight because of the story and you feel satisfied because of the difficulty.
Raids do not provide that through impossible solo challenges simply, they do through the need to coordinate and organise a small group to take on a big bad guy(Anet felt that 10 man would be the sweet spot and i agree not to big and so hard to que not to small so it doesnt lose on the sense of scale).

I get that the game presented it self as a solo friendly experience and im okay with that but you cant give the middle finger to ppl who want something different, after all they are consumers and anet needs to satisfy them.They did that with challenging encounters with little to no lore during the fight and lots of it outside the fight so ppl who dont raid can freely join and experience it. No one forces you to get your hands dirty to experience it.

P.S For all terms and purposes Saul and what happened to the raid as of now are completely irrelevant to the main story(regardless if its better told story or not) also using “filthy casual like me” as an arguement holds no merrit because there have been casual players who raid( dont forget casual means have little time to play, not cant handle challenging content)

EDIT: kitten i forgot to add they basically gave ppl what thy wanted they gave a story (easy mode) to the raid which is the normal raid and its considerably easier than the preivous raid encounters while “hardcore” players got their “hard mode” but not really because its a 1 time thing.

(edited by zealex.9410)

Why would you put important lore in a Raid?

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

I’m surprised people are upset over this, really. The story told in Bastion of the Penitent is totally tangential to anything that is going on in mainland Tyria, and is really just tying up a loose end from GW1. It’s a cool story, don’t get me wrong, but it has to be. Fighting a bunch of nameless, pointless, loreless encounters in a box devoid of features would be terrible. They have to have something compelling, but they’re being nice by not having it be main encounter stuff. If they had bosses like Caudecus or Lazarus in the raid, then I’d agree with you, but everything we’re seeing here is minor and side-note at best.

As a non raider, I agree with this.

I remember when the Zhaitan fight used to be fairly difficult with a group, the story instance had actually difficult encounters and Elite mobs. Hell the Legendary Mouth of Zhaitan was a real pain. The only complaint is that we ended such an epic instance with the cannons firing on Zhaitan, but I didn’t have too many issues with that at the time because we had to literally grind through all of his most powerful minions.

Now? I go back and do the story solo, everything is trivialized, it actually hurts to see the story so easy.

No one remembers the easy fights, only the fights where you struggled leave an impact. I do not want Raiding to be trivialized because of what happened with Zhaitan, although I could accept it now since it was a Main Storyline instance. But leave these Side-Story Raids alone.

I’d honestly prefer to have Zhaitan as a raid fight no matter how bad that sounds at least then i would remember it as this epic encounter where i and 9 other kittenes along with d.e fought hard our way to zhaitan he kicked the crap out of us for the longest time but eventually we killed the motherkittener instead of “oh you mean that instance where i facerolled all the way to find that kitten looking dragon only to find out the ony way to kill him is with glitter?”. Or i dont know have the story as it is but sent the 10 bad kitten to fight him at his nes while he is weakened but stil can through a punch (or a flaming wing or 2)

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

Wing 4 lore is NOT important lore. It has no effect on any of the gw2 story of the past and LS going forward.

Wing 4 lore is a wrap up from GW1, nothing more. You may like that story, but it doesn’t make it important to gw2.

>> Raid 2, NOT wing 4 << does have important lore. it’s not important to the story at hand, but it is valuable lore. It has effect on the World of Guild Wars 2, but not on the campaign against the dragons and secondary antagonists.

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

Wing 4 lore is NOT important lore. It has no effect on any of the gw2 story of the past and LS going forward.

Wing 4 lore is a wrap up from GW1, nothing more. You may like that story, but it doesn’t make it important to gw2.

>> Raid 2, NOT wing 4 << does have important lore. it’s not important to the story at hand, but it is valuable lore. It has effect on the World of Guild Wars 2, but not on the campaign against the dragons and secondary antagonists.

Ppl are gonna call it wing 4 and possibly the next wing5 since the wings are few atm. True its importand lore but dont forget its irrelavant to gw2 current lore so presenting it through a raid is apropriate.

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

>> Raid 2, NOT wing 4 << does have important lore. it’s not important to the story at hand, but it is valuable lore. It has effect on the World of Guild Wars 2, but not on the campaign against the dragons and secondary antagonists.

Sry to disappoint you but your mission’s gonna fail – hard…
Wing4…wing 4…wing 4 it is called!
Take a look at the lfg it has already begun.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I’m surprised people are upset over this, really. The story told in Bastion of the Penitent is totally tangential to anything that is going on in mainland Tyria, and is really just tying up a loose end from GW1. It’s a cool story, don’t get me wrong, but it has to be. Fighting a bunch of nameless, pointless, loreless encounters in a box devoid of features would be terrible. They have to have something compelling, but they’re being nice by not having it be main encounter stuff. If they had bosses like Caudecus or Lazarus in the raid, then I’d agree with you, but everything we’re seeing here is minor and side-note at best.

As a non raider, I agree with this.

I remember when the Zhaitan fight used to be fairly difficult with a group, the story instance had actually difficult encounters and Elite mobs. Hell the Legendary Mouth of Zhaitan was a real pain. The only complaint is that we ended such an epic instance with the cannons firing on Zhaitan, but I didn’t have too many issues with that at the time because we had to literally grind through all of his most powerful minions.

Now? I go back and do the story solo, everything is trivialized, it actually hurts to see the story so easy.

No one remembers the easy fights, only the fights where you struggled leave an impact. I do not want Raiding to be trivialized because of what happened with Zhaitan, although I could accept it now since it was a Main Storyline instance. But leave these Side-Story Raids alone.

An encounter does need to be raid level of challenging (which ArenaNet explicitly said they expected that the majority of players wouldn’t get) in order to be challenging enough to be memorable. We see plenty of cases in the Living World chapters and in dungeons (although dungeons have been affected by power creep).

Heck, you could make an ‘easy mode’ of the raids just by removing or toning down some of the raid-specific mechanics. Remove the enrage timer, allow defeated players to be revived normally, remove or substantially reduce the “DPS check” phases such as seen with Gorseval. This would allow people to go in and learn the mechanics in a more forgiving environment and with builds toned more towards survivability than pure offence (like how people got a handle on explorable dungeons using equipment sets with some survivability before switching to the berserker meta) and switch to full-on raids once they feel comfortable to do so. Heck, you could have this mode provide some feedback as to how the team might have done if it was the real thing, such as showing how their time compared to the enrage timer and how well they did on any DPS-check phases. This could allow new raiding groups to use it as a less demoralising training mode, from which they can transfer into the real thing when they’re ready… and experience the story in the meantime.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Walhalla.5473

Walhalla.5473

>> Raid 2, NOT wing 4 << does have important lore. it’s not important to the story at hand, but it is valuable lore. It has effect on the World of Guild Wars 2, but not on the campaign against the dragons and secondary antagonists.

Sry to disappoint you but your mission’s gonna fail – hard…
Wing4…wing 4…wing 4 it is called!
Take a look at the lfg it has already begun.

And people are using a weird naming for the new raid bosses w4b3 w4b1 etc. I hope that will go away otherwise things are gonna be arkward in the future. " W27B2 1 PS "
They shouldn’t be so lazy to not include the name.

Also there is no wing 4. A wing is a part of a raid and a raid with one wing is a raid with no wing. And Bastion has no wings, its just a small raid with 4 bosses.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

>> Raid 2, NOT wing 4 << does have important lore. it’s not important to the story at hand, but it is valuable lore. It has effect on the World of Guild Wars 2, but not on the campaign against the dragons and secondary antagonists.

Sry to disappoint you but your mission’s gonna fail – hard…
Wing4…wing 4…wing 4 it is called!
Take a look at the lfg it has already begun.

I don’t care, I’m not jumping on a hypetrain that’s gonna crash on three other hype trains on a mountainside.

It’s raid 2, the devs said as much. In a little while there will be a raid 3, and the devs will call it raid 3 and I won’t be responsible when the confusion starts with asking where raid 2 is

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Posted by: Chris McSwag.4683

Chris McSwag.4683

while GW2 raids were explicitly designed with the expectation that anyone planning to go all the way through would have full Ascended. Furthermore, playing in elite areas in GW1, with the possible exceptions of the Factions zones, pretty much felt just like you were playing anywhere else except that the enemies were harder. GW2 raids, however, are quite different to anywhere else: you need a larger group, there’s a greater focus on encounter mechanics, you have enrage counters and DPS checks calibrated so that you need to play almost perfectly, and so on.

Max level gear is easy to get for anyone that plays somewhat frequently or has been playing for a while. You could lose your way to an almost full armor set in pvp, LS3 maps are easy farms for trinkets/backpacks and T4 fractals reward ascended equipment somewhat frequently(I have 12 sets, crafted only one).
Even with that in mind, ascended is in no way a requirement for raids apart from requirements that GROUP COMMANDERS may impose on others. The enrage timers are pretty generous once you get mechanics down, especially in the new wing, and there is no need whatsoever to play perfectly either (Near perfect play typically leaves you with 50-60% of the timers left)

Apart from the possible challenge of finding 9 other people, literally all you need to do is to play decently in terms of dps and mechanics. Now I understand that this may exclude “I got the game last week and used my lvl80 boost” and “i have spent 90% playtime in jumping puzzles”, but this is endgame content and SHOULD require some investment.

On topic:
90% of raid story is in the cutscenes and even then it is pretty limited stuff you get from it. I don’t mind a story mode per se, but i personally think that it would be wasted resources. After all, the amount of players that would raid only for the story can probably be considered very small

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Posted by: Coconut.7082

Coconut.7082

This is getting kittening ridiculous.

What lore are we talking about??
I’ve done every boss of the new raid multiple times already and I don’t see any lore during the fights, and don’t know anything about the “lore” behind the bosses (apart from maybe 2 lines you hear from the “prisoner” at 10% on the last boss).

What is the important lore behind the Giant Red Block of nothing (1st boss)?
What is the important lore behind the Mursaat DPS golem (2nd boss)?
What is the important lore behind the Smashing-Swinging Dark Sould boss guy?
Tell me please, because I really couldn’t figure it by fighting them!

There is literally NOTHING you see (considering you don’t run around and interact with notes while fighting), 99.5% of the lore is all located in the final cut-scene that you can only see once you’ve CLEARED the instance!

Anet chose an old GW1 story ,with a tiny loose end, that does not relate in any way to the current story (Don’t bring the stupid White Mantle argument again, you know it’s not the same While Mantle!) and you still complain!
They could release a raid without a story, then you wouldn’t even be able to see the ending of that GW1 story, and absolutely nothing in the current story wouldn’t change!

At this point I think that some people just look for reasons to complain, no matter how stupid the complaints are.

Unless Anet releases a Raid filled with DPS Golems in a blank area you, guys will just keep looking for reasons to bash on raids.

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Posted by: Miellyn.6847

Miellyn.6847

This is getting kittening ridiculous.

What lore are we talking about??
I’ve done every boss of the new raid multiple times already and I don’t see any lore during the fights, and don’t know anything about the “lore” behind the bosses (apart from maybe 2 lines you hear from the “prisoner” at 10% on the last boss).

What is the important lore behind the Giant Red Block of nothing (1st boss)?
What is the important lore behind the Mursaat DPS golem (2nd boss)?
What is the important lore behind the Smashing-Swinging Dark Sould boss guy?
Tell me please, because I really couldn’t figure it by fighting them!

There is literally NOTHING you see (considering you don’t run around and interact with notes while fighting), 99.5% of the lore is all located in the final cut-scene that you can only see once you’ve CLEARED the instance!

Anet chose an old GW1 story ,with a tiny loose end, that does not relate in any way to the current story (Don’t bring the stupid White Mantle argument again, you know it’s not the same While Mantle!) and you still complain!
They could release a raid without a story, then you wouldn’t even be able to see the ending of that GW1 story, and absolutely nothing in the current story wouldn’t change!

At this point I think that some people just look for reasons to complain, no matter how stupid the complaints are.

Unless Anet releases a Raid filled with DPS Golems in a blank area you, guys will just keep looking for reasons to bash on raids.

And then they will complain that the enrage timer is too tight or the rewards are too low.

Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant

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Posted by: Coconut.7082

Coconut.7082

This is getting kittening ridiculous.

What lore are we talking about??
I’ve done every boss of the new raid multiple times already and I don’t see any lore during the fights, and don’t know anything about the “lore” behind the bosses (apart from maybe 2 lines you hear from the “prisoner” at 10% on the last boss).

What is the important lore behind the Giant Red Block of nothing (1st boss)?
What is the important lore behind the Mursaat DPS golem (2nd boss)?
What is the important lore behind the Smashing-Swinging Dark Sould boss guy?
Tell me please, because I really couldn’t figure it by fighting them!

There is literally NOTHING you see (considering you don’t run around and interact with notes while fighting), 99.5% of the lore is all located in the final cut-scene that you can only see once you’ve CLEARED the instance!

Anet chose an old GW1 story ,with a tiny loose end, that does not relate in any way to the current story (Don’t bring the stupid White Mantle argument again, you know it’s not the same While Mantle!) and you still complain!
They could release a raid without a story, then you wouldn’t even be able to see the ending of that GW1 story, and absolutely nothing in the current story wouldn’t change!

At this point I think that some people just look for reasons to complain, no matter how stupid the complaints are.

Unless Anet releases a Raid filled with DPS Golems in a blank area you, guys will just keep looking for reasons to bash on raids.

And then they will complain that the enrage timer is too tight or the rewards are too low.

Enrage timer lol, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWDvHazI8G4&t=13486s
Did the 1st CM couple days ago with: 1 Healing Tempest, 2 Healing Druids, 1 or 2 Minstrel’s Chronos’, with half the people dead at the end and still had like 2 minutes left. Does it get more forgiving than this?

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Posted by: Miellyn.6847

Miellyn.6847

This is getting kittening ridiculous.

What lore are we talking about??
I’ve done every boss of the new raid multiple times already and I don’t see any lore during the fights, and don’t know anything about the “lore” behind the bosses (apart from maybe 2 lines you hear from the “prisoner” at 10% on the last boss).

What is the important lore behind the Giant Red Block of nothing (1st boss)?
What is the important lore behind the Mursaat DPS golem (2nd boss)?
What is the important lore behind the Smashing-Swinging Dark Sould boss guy?
Tell me please, because I really couldn’t figure it by fighting them!

There is literally NOTHING you see (considering you don’t run around and interact with notes while fighting), 99.5% of the lore is all located in the final cut-scene that you can only see once you’ve CLEARED the instance!

Anet chose an old GW1 story ,with a tiny loose end, that does not relate in any way to the current story (Don’t bring the stupid White Mantle argument again, you know it’s not the same While Mantle!) and you still complain!
They could release a raid without a story, then you wouldn’t even be able to see the ending of that GW1 story, and absolutely nothing in the current story wouldn’t change!

At this point I think that some people just look for reasons to complain, no matter how stupid the complaints are.

Unless Anet releases a Raid filled with DPS Golems in a blank area you, guys will just keep looking for reasons to bash on raids.

And then they will complain that the enrage timer is too tight or the rewards are too low.

Enrage timer lol, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWDvHazI8G4&t=13486s
Did the 1st CM couple days ago with: 1 Healing Tempest, 2 Healing Druids, 1 or 2 Minstrel’s Chronos’, with half the people dead at the end and still had like 2 minutes left. Does it get more forgiving than this?

The only bosses where DPS somewhat matter are Gorseval, Sabetha and Deimos.

My answer was meant to:

Unless Anet releases a Raid filled with DPS Golems in a blank area you, guys will just keep looking for reasons to bash on raids.

I should have deleted the rest of the post.

Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant

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Posted by: Jaidy.1824

Jaidy.1824

Raiding should have a story(easy) mode, where the casual player could also run trough the raid. Give it lesser rewards (no legendary armor etc). This way they can enjoy the story and get the achievements.

It also gives the casual player a taste of the raid and a way to learn the mechanics of the bosses. Its up to them if they want to progress eventually to hard mode.

Not sure if its still the case, but requiring certain play style and builds for a raid is a no go for this game and never should have been added.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Raiding should have a story(easy) mode, where the casual player could also run trough the raid. Give it lesser rewards (no legendary armor etc). This way they can enjoy the story and get the achievements.

It also gives the casual player a taste of the raid and a way to learn the mechanics of the bosses. Its up to them if they want to progress eventually to hard mode.

Not sure if its still the case, but requiring certain play style and builds for a raid is a no go for this game and never should have been added.

If there is ever to be such a mode, they should never get the achievements.

I seriously doubt players would actually use an easy mode to learn the mechanics. What they’re more likely to do is find a way to cheese the encounter which can only be done in that mode.

(edited by Ayrilana.1396)