Guild Wars 2

Easy mode PvE.

The end.

to allow people like you to give birth to interesting posts?

Go solo Lupicus off the wall in berserker gear and post the video here Beast. I’ll wait.

NikeEU.7690:

Go solo Lupicus off the wall in berserker gear and post the video here Beast. I’ll wait.

Unless his poison prison has started tracking again, a more relevant challenge would have been mossman 50 + wolves as he starts throwing some really fast daggers once he gets below that health threshold.

Barrage/pet has been nerfed in GW2.

Windsagio.1340:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yyNT7afVSs

lol

It’s been a while!

/leans back

Yeah, this berserker meta is so easy. I do not understand why they don’t make valkyries gear more viable because it takes much more skill.

LET ME BE YAH TANK BRUUH!

Care to elaborate on this OP?

I don’t get what soloing Lupicus or lvl50 Mossman has to do with the topic.
If the skill requeriment would be at that level for full groups and the majority of the dungeon content, there’s no way we would be talking about a berserker meta.

Vargamonth.2047:

I don’t get what soloing Lupicus or lvl50 Mossman has to do with the topic.
If the skill requeriment would be at that level for full groups and the majority of the dungeon content, there’s no way we would be talking about a berserker meta.

I hear ya, the problem with the zerk meta is that even if you fail and die you can actually speed things up by just banging your head on things and going to the closest respawn. The “risk” for zerker meta is quite slim thanks to the quick regroup thanks to the respawns. It eliminates most risk. If failure in a dungeon meant complete failure or even having to respawns from the start you’d likely see most PUGs opting for more durable setups as being more risky would actually be punished, but currently it is not.

Soloing dungeons in zerk gear can be tough, doing Lupi or mossman solo is quite a feat, it’s something most can’t do, but in a group situation who cares? take 30s or so and get back to Lupi and attempt it again, the risk is hardly a risk it’s just a small bit of extra time, an annoyance more than a risk.

I don’t think waypoints are necessary a bad idea for the casual game that this is, but I can’t help but feel that it’s done everything to allow the zerk meta. I’d love to see a “hard mode” put in where waypoints are disabled, complete death was punished, even limiting it to the starter waypoint would go a long way to discourage it and bring alternative to the frontline of PUG groups. Perfect groups would still be Zerk groups but more risky encounters would demand the consideration of the risk of full wipe and with the punishments it meant.

I’m not really a proponent of the anit-zerk movement but at the same time I think its quite silly that zerk is the obvious (to those who understand) choice. Maybe it’s my oldschool notions but I used to be punished for full wipes on 1/2 hour punishments or even more. I think that’s the right choice for going all out trying to play to perfection. If you fail you should be punished for that choice. If you can pull it off, you are rewarded, if you can’t you’re subject to even more time than what the “perfected” method would result in.

But, this is a casual game, and it’s been dumbed down to allow it easily. I can’t help but feel that it’s casual nature has contradicted itself and welcomed a more hardcore nature by supporting a zerk meta.

Boro.7359:

Barrage/pet has been nerfed in GW2.

D: /hyperventilation

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I’m in no way anti-zerker either.
I strongly believe that, as an action based combat game, surviving through active defenses should be more rewarding than soaking up damage and sustaining through passive/rotationary means. A damage increase, thus faster completion times, looks like a fair reward to me.

The problem is that, if I look at passive defenses as some kind of risk-reward or difficulty slider, most encounters are too easily beatable while taking the theorically hardest approach.
On top of this, as you said, fights are usually so fast that a failure isn’t even that risky. You just respawn and try it again in matter of seconds.

I’m not sure what could be the best solution (in case devs see this as a problem at all). Less waypoinst would be mostly an annoyance and a kick on wipe, while certainly interesting for “elite” content, could be easily a PUG killer.

I think one of the first thing developers should look at are health pools: they are just too small for decent group compositions.
Longer fights would both reduce the impact of some opening tactics/rotations (which is HUGE more often than not) and increase the punishment on failure, and it comes with barely any downcome as long as they design enjoyable enough fights (t’s not like they should apply this on HotW bosses :P).

Its also cuz of no team builds synergy the every man for himself concept.
Normally u have trinity and roles for that reason it goes beyond just trinity.
Also whats the point of stacking armor if u cannot hold aggro anyway u r just dead weight for the team.

There’s actually a kind of interesting background to this; It started as a sort of (not very good) shorthand for ‘they probably know what they’re doing’. Now, with all the arguing, it’s become solidified into a think on its own right.

Vargamonth.2047:

I’m in no way anti-zerker either.
I strongly believe that, as an action based combat game, surviving through active defenses should be more rewarding than soaking up damage and sustaining through passive/rotationary means. A damage increase, thus faster completion times, looks like a fair reward to me.

The problem is that, if I look at passive defenses as some kind of risk-reward or difficulty slider, most encounters are too easily beatable while taking the theorically hardest approach.
On top of this, as you said, fights are usually so fast that a failure isn’t even that risky. You just respawn and try it again in matter of seconds.

This game simply isn’t rewarding enough to be challenging.

Best bait i’ve ever seen in my life.

Worked like a charm :P

Windsagio.1340:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yyNT7afVSs

Oh god I’m dying
I swear I’m gonna post this everywhere

I have to fully agree with OP and his massive amount of arguments, which are steadfast foundations of his point of view on the topic.

biiiiiiiiiiiiiiingo

Vargamonth.2047:

I don’t get what soloing Lupicus or lvl50 Mossman has to do with the topic.
If the skill requeriment would be at that level for full groups and the majority of the dungeon content, there’s no way we would be talking about a berserker meta.

The point is, when people solo those bosses, they do it in berserker. Allow me to connect the dots for you since I guess I was too vague.

OP says berserker is only good because pve is easy.

I respond that even when the difficulty is increased extremely high, berserker is still the optimal choice.

Therefore, the difficulty of the content (or lack thereof) is not a sufficient explanation for why berserker gear is optimal, and other explanations should be sought if you want to make a legitimate point.

NikeEU.7690:

Therefore, the difficulty of the content (or lack thereof) is not a sufficient explanation for why berserker gear is optimal, and other explanations should be sought if you want to make a legitimate point.

Going out on a limb here, but I’m guessing from the OP’s post that he’s not terribly interested in making a legitimate point.

dlonie.6547:

NikeEU.7690:

Therefore, the difficulty of the content (or lack thereof) is not a sufficient explanation for why berserker gear is optimal, and other explanations should be sought if you want to make a legitimate point.

Going out on a limb here, but I’m guessing from the OP’s post that he’s not terribly interested in making a legitimate point.

How would you even dare to take such a guess, you odiferous clay-brained moldwarp? Can’t you see this is a serious thread that requires careful planning in each response? Let the gentlemen enlighten all of us!
/sips tea angrily

(I love the internet, the things you find!)

NikeEU.7690:

Vargamonth.2047:

I don’t get what soloing Lupicus or lvl50 Mossman has to do with the topic.
If the skill requeriment would be at that level for full groups and the majority of the dungeon content, there’s no way we would be talking about a berserker meta.

The point is, when people solo those bosses, they do it in berserker. Allow me to connect the dots for you since I guess I was too vague.

OP says berserker is only good because pve is easy.

I respond that even when the difficulty is increased extremely high, berserker is still the optimal choice.

Therefore, the difficulty of the content (or lack thereof) is not a sufficient explanation for why berserker gear is optimal, and other explanations should be sought if you want to make a legitimate point.

I get your point. We probably disagree on the meaning of “meta” and got a different idea from the original post (which I don’t even know whom is directed to btw).

Vargamonth.2047:

redacted

I think one of the first thing developers should look at are health pools: they are just too small for decent group compositions.
Longer fights would both reduce the impact of some opening tactics/rotations (which is HUGE more often than not) and increase the punishment on failure, and it comes with barely any downcome as long as they design enjoyable enough fights (t’s not like they should apply this on HotW bosses :P).

Fractals already have this. The fights against Archdiviner or Mossman are quite long when compared to dungeon bosses and yet the meta is still pretty much the same.

I am not as eloquent as other more esteemed members of the dungeon community but I think we already established that changing the “zerk meta” without touching the core mechanics that define this game’s combat is a bit of a futile effort. After all, in any game (regardless of trinity y/n), DPS is more or less always king. It’s why other games have enrage timers or DPS checks. It’s about bringing as much defense as necessary while mainting as much DPS as possible.
The reason why “as much defense as necessary” often equals 0 in GW2 (with 0 being the base defense the meta builds offer) is probably because the content allows for it since PvE is too easy for really skilled players (Attention: Personal opinion!). One way of changing this would be for example changing the dodge mechanic. Right now it offers invincibility frames (IF) which allows you to dodge through AoE fields. You could reduce the number of IF or remove them altogether, which would effectively reduce dodging to a means of getting from A to B quickly. Instead of dodging through AoE you’d have to dodge out of it or get hit. Furthermore, by altering some of the core mechanics of the game (locking targets, free aim vs tab target etc) you could put more emphasis on individual aim, mobility and spatial awareness and thereby lower the viability of just looking at your skillbar while performing optimal rotations as long as you have aegis. (Think TERA, although my knowledge of the game is very very limited)
These changes would not empower tankiness, they’d just raise the skill bar thereby making tankiness a bit more enticing.

Ultimately I’d like to mention something that (I think) Nike has stated several times: Why is the current dominance of offensive builds bad?

All of the above are just a couple of quick thoughs and just my personal opinion. It may contain errors, hyperbole or simplification.

deSade.9437:

/sips tea angrily

Trying to picture this, need visual aid.

dlonie.6547:

deSade.9437:

/sips tea angrily

Trying to picture this, need visual aid.

Wait, this is better http://imgur.com/gallery/djTuIN6

The OP is kind of correct. :P

Especially if you consider the berserker meta as referring to the pug meta.

Pfff, you came only for the tea. Just take it and shuddup.
/throws tea

So I have been doing fotm lately with LOD and I have to say, the berserker team comp meta is seriously trivializing the content. Mossman gets nuked past 50% with 1 icebow freeze combo. Archdiviner’s daze with meteor shower precast followed by icebow freeze combo trivialized him. Svanir in snowblind gets nuked and literally die before teleporting up. Imbued grawl shaman icebow freeze after his bubble pops is a little too OP. Mai trin stealth icebow nuke is OP if the warrior or guard can face tank mai.

Veydar.5017:

Fractals already have this. The fights against Archdiviner or Mossman are quite long when compared to dungeon bosses and yet the meta is still pretty much the same.

…

Those are fights A LOT of players have a much harder time with.
While highly organized and/or skilled groups will still stick to meta-ish builds and tactics, it’s way more common to see outliers in this content, from an obvious increase on ranging to plain lame tactics (if not exploits) like underwater Mossman.
An that’s after having filtered a good amount of the playerbase that could be running regular dungeons on meta builds (mostly because of a terrible reward balance, but probably also related to the hop in difficulty).

I wouldn’t put my money on the current meta approach being the common trend if fractals were rewarding enough to cater a much larger playerbase, and I’m fairly sure that most (if not all) anti-meta threads are not created with high level fractals in mind.
I also think there’s still a lot of room for even longer and more interesting fights.

About active defenses, I find that devs probably went too far with the invulnerability window on dodge rolls. When compared with the ridiculous level of survivability attainable by pure passive means it doesn’t look so out of place though.

EcoRI.9273:

So I have been doing fotm lately with LOD and I have to say, the berserker team comp meta is seriously trivializing the content. Mossman gets nuked past 50% with 1 icebow freeze combo. Archdiviner’s daze with meteor shower precast followed by icebow freeze combo trivialized him. Svanir in snowblind gets nuked and literally die before teleporting up. Imbued grawl shaman icebow freeze after his bubble pops is a little too OP. Mai trin stealth icebow nuke is OP if the warrior or guard can face tank mai.

How many times was linecasting involved here? I’m still not sure whether that is an exploit or an innovative use of game mechanics..

Lyphos.1096:

EcoRI.9273:

So I have been doing fotm lately with LOD and I have to say, the berserker team comp meta is seriously trivializing the content. Mossman gets nuked past 50% with 1 icebow freeze combo. Archdiviner’s daze with meteor shower precast followed by icebow freeze combo trivialized him. Svanir in snowblind gets nuked and literally die before teleporting up. Imbued grawl shaman icebow freeze after his bubble pops is a little too OP. Mai trin stealth icebow nuke is OP if the warrior or guard can face tank mai.

How many times was linecasting involved here? I’m still not sure whether that is an exploit or an innovative use of game mechanics..

none, usually the reason way some organized groups can’t nuke bosses is because they fail to get 25vuln/might. Or eles are not traited correctly also guardian tome of wrath helps and most guardians don’t use that.

EcoRI.9273:

So I have been doing fotm lately with LOD and I have to say, the berserker team comp meta is seriously trivializing the content. Mossman gets nuked past 50% with 1 icebow freeze combo. Archdiviner’s daze with meteor shower precast followed by icebow freeze combo trivialized him. Svanir in snowblind gets nuked and literally die before teleporting up. Imbued grawl shaman icebow freeze after his bubble pops is a little too OP. Mai trin stealth icebow nuke is OP if the warrior or guard can face tank mai.

Yes, but, just putting on zerk gear doesn’t get this to happen. Bringing the correct team comp and doing everything right does. As you mention, precasting meteor before hitting the seal. And Facetanking Mai/Archie/Mossman aren’t necessarily the easiest things to do.

So yes, it’s a little silly how fast you can burn some of these guys, but it does hinge on doing everything right and not bringing any safety nets for when you make mistakes. I don’t really see it as a problem because of that fact, that you slip up and you’re going down.

Jerus.4350:

EcoRI.9273:

So I have been doing fotm lately with LOD and I have to say, the berserker team comp meta is seriously trivializing the content. Mossman gets nuked past 50% with 1 icebow freeze combo. Archdiviner’s daze with meteor shower precast followed by icebow freeze combo trivialized him. Svanir in snowblind gets nuked and literally die before teleporting up. Imbued grawl shaman icebow freeze after his bubble pops is a little too OP. Mai trin stealth icebow nuke is OP if the warrior or guard can face tank mai.

Yes, but, just putting on zerk gear doesn’t get this to happen. Bringing the correct team comp and doing everything right does. As you mention, precasting meteor before hitting the seal. And Facetanking Mai/Archie/Mossman aren’t necessarily the easiest things to do.

So yes, it’s a little silly how fast you can burn some of these guys, but it does hinge on doing everything right and not bringing any safety nets for when you make mistakes. I don’t really see it as a problem because of that fact, that you slip up and you’re going down.

It brings back the notion of kill before you get killed. This strategy is so strong that if you know how to execute it, it just makes playing berserker builds so much safer simply because you dodge less due to the fact that the boss is disabled for 50+% of it HP. I am willing to wager that for teams that know these strategies and they do fotm without icebow, they will wipe/die/down a lot more.

EcoRI.9273:

Jerus.4350:

EcoRI.9273:

So I have been doing fotm lately with LOD and I have to say, the berserker team comp meta is seriously trivializing the content. Mossman gets nuked past 50% with 1 icebow freeze combo. Archdiviner’s daze with meteor shower precast followed by icebow freeze combo trivialized him. Svanir in snowblind gets nuked and literally die before teleporting up. Imbued grawl shaman icebow freeze after his bubble pops is a little too OP. Mai trin stealth icebow nuke is OP if the warrior or guard can face tank mai.

Yes, but, just putting on zerk gear doesn’t get this to happen. Bringing the correct team comp and doing everything right does. As you mention, precasting meteor before hitting the seal. And Facetanking Mai/Archie/Mossman aren’t necessarily the easiest things to do.

So yes, it’s a little silly how fast you can burn some of these guys, but it does hinge on doing everything right and not bringing any safety nets for when you make mistakes. I don’t really see it as a problem because of that fact, that you slip up and you’re going down.

It brings back the notion of kill before you get killed. This strategy is so strong that if you know how to execute it, it just makes playing berserker builds so much safer simply because you dodge less due to the fact that the boss is disabled for 50+% of it HP. I am willing to wager that for teams that know these strategies and they do fotm without icebow, they will wipe/die/down a lot more.

The group I run with kind of intentionally mix up our parties (when we have the luxury, its not a full group) for that reason.

Running without that protection engine is of similar effect.

It always feels easy and silly when you get carried. I know from experience, I get carried a lot. Nevermind the fact that things going so smoothly is the result of hundreds of hours in playtime, deep knowledge of encounters and nearly perfect execution.
One wrong aegis might compromise certain strategies at archie and the shaman.
But of course, let’s keep blaming dungeons being too easy and zerk being too op, or bosses not having enough hp, not dungeons being simply OLD.

Well I’ve been singing the same tune in the forums for over a month; Nerf icebow plz. :-D And honestly i feel ice bow is the true carry, not a guardian. Look at the trio tourney there were more eles than guardians.

But but but…

Breaker Bar!

HoT hypehypehype!!

Its funny how people went and took this as “zerk is easy to play!”. That is not at all what im saying. What I am saying is that the meta is pure zerk because the PvE is easy. Why would someone go cleric gear in a dungeon if reflects and dodge is enough to avoid 95% of the dmg.

The boss mechanics are way to simple for the combat system in Gw2. Anet said themselves that when they were working on the combat in Gw2 they were also working on the AI, thats why the PvE is so kitten easy. They didnt know the potential of their own combat system.

Vargamonth.2047:

I don’t get what soloing Lupicus or lvl50 Mossman has to do with the topic.
If the skill requeriment would be at that level for full groups and the majority of the dungeon content, there’s no way we would be talking about a berserker meta.

Exactly! +1

EcoRI.9273:

Well I’ve been singing the same tune in the forums for over a month; Nerf icebow plz. :-D And honestly i feel ice bow is the true carry, not a guardian. Look at the trio tourney there were more eles than guardians.

Just switch it’s slot with FGS >< All the ele elites are lame anyways, and IB has the zing an elite should have.

Ele and Guard are different kind of carries in a way that’s interesting to me.

Ele means if you play absolutely perfectly you probably don’t have to dodge more than once or twice.

Guard means you can miss a dodge here and there and not die.

The interesting thing is that I think icebow(s) is/are more likely to fail a carry at lower skill levels.

EcoRI.9273:

So I have been doing fotm lately with LOD and I have to say, the berserker team comp meta is seriously trivializing the content. Mossman gets nuked past 50% with 1 icebow freeze combo. Archdiviner’s daze with meteor shower precast followed by icebow freeze combo trivialized him. Svanir in snowblind gets nuked and literally die before teleporting up. Imbued grawl shaman icebow freeze after his bubble pops is a little too OP. Mai trin stealth icebow nuke is OP if the warrior or guard can face tank mai.

pretty sure you mean “playing with decent players is trivialising content”.

your random pug in full berserker probably isn’t melting bosses at fractal 50.

They’re probably not melting them, but I’ve never seen a 49 or 50 fractal have serious trouble with any of the bosses (except sometimes the ice source and that one in ten thousand molten duos that decides to suck for some reason)

maha.7902:

EcoRI.9273:

So I have been doing fotm lately with LOD and I have to say, the berserker team comp meta is seriously trivializing the content. Mossman gets nuked past 50% with 1 icebow freeze combo. Archdiviner’s daze with meteor shower precast followed by icebow freeze combo trivialized him. Svanir in snowblind gets nuked and literally die before teleporting up. Imbued grawl shaman icebow freeze after his bubble pops is a little too OP. Mai trin stealth icebow nuke is OP if the warrior or guard can face tank mai.

pretty sure you mean “playing with decent players is trivialising content”.

your random pug in full berserker probably isn’t melting bosses at fractal 50.

Yes, and I would prefer content to be challenging even with decent players which I feel can be accomplished by nerfing icebow and maybe a little on meteor shower.

Safe pug tactics are often more solid than meta groups with riskier strategies. I have a pretty good amount of trust for the people I play with and they’re much better than me… things still go wrong. It takes a few mistakes for people to die. Wipes rarely happen if ever (unless we do stupid stuff like 5 ele), but it’s not uncommon for some fights to be pretty hectic.
You see record runs, but things aren’t always that clean…. Pugs often do it safe.
How can you down while ranging archie?
Unless the staff elly kills you…

Well IB nerf is coming, though at least in fractals I don’t think it’s too bad, to get the burns you’re talking about you have to do a lot of little things right, and if you screw up on one dodge, archie/mossman will make you pay. And picking someone up on either of those fights can be a pain.

I will say I like Windsagio’s idea, keep the damage and all that but just longer reuse and compete with Earth Ele. /shrug likely they’ll just nerf damage and breakbar kill deep freeze.

EcoRI.9273:

maha.7902:

EcoRI.9273:

So I have been doing fotm lately with LOD and I have to say, the berserker team comp meta is seriously trivializing the content. Mossman gets nuked past 50% with 1 icebow freeze combo. Archdiviner’s daze with meteor shower precast followed by icebow freeze combo trivialized him. Svanir in snowblind gets nuked and literally die before teleporting up. Imbued grawl shaman icebow freeze after his bubble pops is a little too OP. Mai trin stealth icebow nuke is OP if the warrior or guard can face tank mai.

pretty sure you mean “playing with decent players is trivialising content”.

your random pug in full berserker probably isn’t melting bosses at fractal 50.

Yes, and I would prefer content to be challenging even with decent players which I feel can be accomplished by nerfing icebow and maybe a little on meteor shower.

except it won’t

we did a 4w/1g dungeon tour months ago and it was just brain afk smash your face on keyboard.

no eles required, content being three years old makes it trivial and boring.

EcoRI.9273:

Yes, and I would prefer content to be challenging even with decent players which I feel can be accomplished by nerfing icebow and maybe a little on meteor shower.

That’s a pretty narrow view. Yup Icebow is a bit overpowered. Meteor Shower? Not so sure since it’s a high burst skill but with a very large area which limit it’s effectiveness.

Anyway, they could cut the dps of everything in the game by half, that would not make content more challenging. Non challenging 3 years old content won’t become magically challenging only because we take longer to kill them. It could help for some particular bosses, but these bosses are not the problem. The problem is with easy mode boss that don’t pressure your active defense so you can spam aegis/dodge/reflect and still do the job done.