Guild Wars 2

Now i dont want a gear treadmill more than anyone else but i have 1 simple question.

I got the look i want on a character, what reason do i have to ever play it again without something to look forward to > progress into

Fun, friends, challange, beating your best times, getting a second armor set for different stats, finding new armor combos you like, loot, trying to never get downed. Since this is in dungeons, I assume you want to do dungeons and not other world areas so those are some of the reasons I play dungeons.

Start an alt, make 8 lvl80 alts, do the dungeons with those alts and/or random pugs, change traits, solo lupicus
wvwvw? pvp? jumping puzzles?

This is the biggest problem with GW2, and is why so many people consider PvE to be “unfinished”.

The only reason to do dungeons is to change your armor or weapon appearances. I would also say that the other reason for doing dungeons is for the challenge of actually doing them, but I can’t even say dungeons are challenging without laughing. Fractals are the only things that are really enjoyable at endgame, but they’re still so riddled with bugs (understandable this early on) and they get so repetitive that they don’t really solve the problem of endgame PvE. They’re a step in the right direction, but we’re not quite there yet.

What GW2 really needs is 10 player Fractals with actual mechanics that do not just involve staying out of red circles. Many people around here hate on raids from other games because of blah-blah-gear-grind, but the fact of the matter is that raids in other games such as EQ2, vanilla WoW, Rift, etc. are fun because they are actually challenging and require teamwork, not just because of the big numbers on the gear. Raids also present long term progression. Unlike dungeons or Fractals where you can complete everything in about an hour, properly formed raids can take anywhere from weeks to months to progress through.

Now many people will look at that statement and find the obvious two problems: 1. Fractals supposedly present long term progression because you can keep leveling up, and 2. People can finish entire raids in one night on other games.
These points are silly when you think about them though. Fractals do not really progress because you are just doing the same content over and over with each level being a bit more difficult than the last (which is basically a grind). And also, the people who steamroll raids in one night in other games can only do so because they outgear the content, which obviously would not happen in GW2 because there is no gear progression.

ANet had a nice idea with giving players the top line gear without the need to grind for it, but they seem to have forgotten that giving the player everything they want very quickly creates boredom.

That being said, there is no subscription for this game and the PvP is actually very well done and is continuously challenging. So until PvE is expanded we have the option of either stepping into WvW/sPvP or just finding another game to play. Obviously these are not great options and ANet really needs to get to work on PvE, but nevertheless there’s your answer.

What GW2 really needs is 10 player Fractals with actual mechanics that do not just involve staying out of red circles.

The game does not need party sizes larger than 5 to have dungeons with mechanics and fights that require group-oriented strategy.

Pinch.4273:

The game does not need party sizes larger than 5 to have dungeons with mechanics and fights that require group-oriented strategy.

You are absolutely right, and if ANet released properly challenging dungeons I would be okay with that. Larger groups simply allow for more in-depth/creative mechanics and higher levels of teamplay. On the flip side they would be much harder to design and balance so it’s a tricky tradeoff.

Do all the JPs with your eyes shut.
Get armor sets for every holiday.
Get all the dyes.
Level alts of each class.
Find places to take gorgeous screenshots.
Join an RP guild.
Start dance parties.
Explore the lowest and highest points of every area.
Legendaries.
Collect 250 of every single collectible.
Max out all achievements.
Experiment with builds.
insert another goal here

There’s a ton to do in this game. I really appreciate the way that ANet steps back and doesn’t force players to upgrade their gear all the time to do more content. You do have to pick your own goals, but there’s so many options to choose that I have a hard time seeing how people can say there’s nothing to do after you get a random full exotic set.

I think it all comes down to fun you’re having playing the game, I don’t have a problem with gear treadmill, some people wont like it.

I had a friend who played GW1 a lot, and he didn’t leave the tutorial place from the origin game until Factions came out, he had fun there, apparently the community was great.

Prism.5649:

Larger groups simply allow for more in-depth/creative mechanics and higher levels of teamplay.

I don’t agree with that either. Large groups dilute player responsibility. There may be more things going on overall in a 25 player fight, but each individual player will matter less. For example, there may be 10 different dangerous abilities in a 25 player fight, but each player is only responsible for a small subset of it, such as, “deal damage, don’t stand in void zone, interrupt this attack when its your turn”, or “buff allies, don’t stand in void zone, kite this mob when it spawns”.

Comparing GW2 and WoW, the way I see it is like this:
GW2 -> Personal Skill > Group Coordination > Gear > Strategy
WoW -> Strategy > Gear > Group Coordination > Personal Skill

The strategy aspect of GW2 certainly needs to be bumped up, but I think player skill being a very important factor is what sets GW2 apart from other MMORPGs, and I’d like them to explore that further. I can think of theoretical 5-man fights that would work in GW2 and be a lot more involved than the majority of WoW bosses, that’s for sure.

On the flip side they would be much harder to design and balance so it’s a tricky tradeoff.

I agree.

I don’t know if you play WoW, but it’s fairly obvious that they’ve had a raid fight formula ever since Wrath, so they can get these “cool designs” in their fights because the vast majority of it is: tank swap mechanic, healer mechanic, dps check, void zone to not stand in, special mechanic that gives an important role to a couple of players.

It’s all an illusion of good raid encounters, anyways. I’m a jaded former hardcore raider though, so take my opinion with a bucket full of salt.

Pinch, you only think larger groups dilute personal roles because you are looking at the later raids in WoW. I invite you to go check out Vanilla/early BC raids and even more importantly EQ/EQ2 raids (even some Rift dungeons/raids have proper mechanics).

These games had proper raids, not the garbage that is in place today. In these raids each player would have specific mechanic-related jobs (not just tank/heal/DPS) where the failure of one player would result in a wipe.

Proper raids would be something more along the lines of:
Strategy > Personal Skill = Group Coordination > Gear

With raids such as these, larger groups absolutely allow for more customization of mechanics because there are more players to be given specific roles.

The problem with GW2 right now is that, as I mentioned, the only true mechanic is getting out of red circles. Sure there are optimal strategies to defeat dungeon encounters, but straight up zerging a boss with players who know how to dodge roll will win the day 9 times out of 10.

I have 4 80s right now. I’ve got them all decked out. The dungeons are not hard, theyre mindnumbingly easy, there is no content in the game that is “hard”. There is no hardcore equivalent to anything and i fail to see any challenge so far short of my first few times through arah…

with skipping / exploiting / and the general easiness of dungeons i fail to see how i could find a challenge.

I honestly would love a gear “unlock” system of clearing dungeons to get into harder and more skill oriented dungeons. right now there is barely any strategy outside of arah or fractals besides ZERG THE ENEMY.

I dunno… challenge and progress are fun to me… nothing after 80 gives me that. Where is the end game?

I love not having to worry about a gear grind. Never ending hurdle to raid for hours a week, every week, to keep up with the current level of stats. I played WoW for 4 years and I was a hardcore raider. There were raids I loved and raids I didn’t like so much. Raids that I just wasn’t in the mood to do or was just sick of farming each and every week for that one item that is an upgrade in stats. I don’t miss the gear grind at all.

But I do miss raiding. I would love to do raiding in this game. I would love it more if the rewards weren’t gear with higher stats, but was instead armor with different looks that could not be gotten anywhere else. I love raiding because it can be challenging and fun. Attaching a gear grind to raiding always made it feel like a job to me and that’s why I quit wow. I just want to do it for fun, when I want to. I don’t want to feel like if I miss a week of raiding I fell behind.

i think there are a lot of people in this game who would love to raid just for the fun and challenge of it, and the reward of having another beautiful armor set/weapon with no increased stats.

Prism.5649:

Pinch, you only think larger groups dilute personal roles because you are looking at the later raids in WoW. I invite you to go check out Vanilla/early BC raids and even more importantly EQ/EQ2 raids (even some Rift dungeons/raids have proper mechanics).

These games had proper raids, not the garbage that is in place today. In these raids each player would have specific mechanic-related jobs (not just tank/heal/DPS) where the failure of one player would result in a wipe.

I raided hardcore in vanilla & TBC, and tried out Rift’s raids for a little while. The specific mechanic related jobs were just “wipe mechanics”. I can’t really think of many examples where a player tasked with dealing with a wipe mechanic had to do much else. The difficulty in those raids still came from hoping that no single player would mess up, more than anything.

With raids such as these, larger groups absolutely allow for more customization of mechanics because there are more players to be given specific roles.

Again, I don’t think you need more players to have more things happen. You just have to make each individual player do more stuff in a 5 man.

For example, I played a Rogue on M’uru, one of the hardest fights in TBC WoW. My job was to: Attack an add, stun it, attack another add, stun it, attack boss, avoid gravity circles. At any given time, I wasn’t actually doing that much.

The problem with GW2 right now is that, as I mentioned, the only true mechanic is getting out of red circles. Sure there are optimal strategies to defeat dungeon encounters, but straight up zerging a boss with players who know how to dodge roll will win the day 9 times out of 10.

Those may be the only mechanics right now, but there are a lot of others that haven’t even begun to be explored. You’ve obviously raided a lot, so you know what I’m talking about.

Things like:

• Boon removal
• Coordinated condition removal
• Interrupts
• Add management, kiting, prioritizing, etc

And I could go on, but you get the point.

Anyways, I totally get what you’re trying to say about how large fights have a lot of stuff going on and need a lot of group coordination and strategies, but I think 5 mans can get very close to emulating it.

The reason I think they should stick to 5 mans is mostly due to the power of ressing. Adding more players would require some questionable mechanics to make fights more difficult (enrage timers, groupwide oneshots to force you to get death penalty so it can kill you for good, etc).

I think we need cross profession combo fields – give a Nec+Eng (or Eng +Ranger Pet) a repeatable combo field that makes a high DPS Warrior blush. If the game is going to be all about DPS, let the ‘less popular’ professions combine their skills into something useful and playable.

However the #1 thing that PUG’s could use at this point (which ALL the FPS games have out of the box) is in game Voicecomm.

Ingame voice-com would not be useful for dungeons. WoW has it, and no one uses it. PvP could use it, though.

Pinch.4273:

Ingame voice-com would not be useful for dungeons. WoW has it, and no one uses it. PvP could use it, though.

Because half the time it doesn’t work right.

Pinch.4273:

The game does not need party sizes larger than 5 to have dungeons with mechanics and fights that require group-oriented strategy.

You win 1 internets.

Hoyvin.3241:

Pinch.4273:

Ingame voice-com would not be useful for dungeons. WoW has it, and no one uses it. PvP could use it, though.

Because half the time it doesn’t work right.

Maybe it’s because everyone had it turned off, like me!

problem with mechanics like boon removal is that the majority of classes dont have it.

defiance and bad telegraphing dont allow for interrupts and because people dont die but go down (dont get me wrong i love the downed system) it is hard to get an interrupt thing to work. Best would be if defiant/unshakable was a 15sec buff that make them immune to CC. No stacks, just 15 sec, then its off and u get 1 cc, then 15 sec. Does the same job, better, and allows for interrupt mechanics without cc locking bosses. Maybe a skill (enemies) that hits everyone after 5 seconds. Purple beams shoot to everyone, in 5 seconds they will be downed, it must be interrupted. Would need a good description under the enemy title.

there is no defined aggro system since every unit has secondary perameters to their “vicinity aggro management” and we can never tell exactly who theyre going to attack or if we can even kite or anything.

the mechanics in this game (pve dungeon wise) are just not that advanced or engaging. Even the dragon fights that are supposed to epic and awesome i literally stood there hitting the dragon and had to react to nothing, do nothing, and worry about nothing. My first experience with the shatterer was the most disappointing boss fight ive ever played in my entire life as a gamer.

I understand about not wanting to be locked into requirements. I was a hardcore raider for since vanilla wow to wrath. I loved raiding, i loved the challenge, the strategy… i did not love the time imput and gear requirement. BUT every new boss and piece of gear felt like an accomplishment where as in GW2 im just checking off items on a list because they are not fun or hard to get (dungeon sets). Theres absolutely no feeling of reward through challenge its just oh you did the required number of runs… here you go.

There is no such thing as “skill based” combat in pve right now. it just doesnt exist.

I would LOVE as i said before an unlock system for dungeons. As in you completed X boss, you can now process to Y dungeon. No gear requirements, no agony, just a really hard encounter that if u can get it down you can move on. Rewards would have to increase in higher set dungeons (more loadstone and T6 mat drops, more rares for ectos, unique super rare and very cool skins that drop ONLY DROP in the dungeon from chests and not from tokens along with a set for tokens as well). How about dye packs that hold 15 dyes you are assured not to have already on that character or a glowing enchantment for your weapon? runes that are etched into pieces of armor to signify you have completed something challenging?

I understand this might segregate the community but honestly… i dont care. You could reset the requirements every week so like this.

Finish each explorable mode of a dungeon unlock the super mode of that dungeon (brand new area). If all super modes are finished you get 1 final dungeon in the mists (sprout off of fractals?) that is extremely hard and challenging. if you finish this there is a high chance of a precursor? Just…something where progression is present please

Sure there are optimal strategies to defeat dungeon encounters, but straight up zerging a boss with players who know how to dodge roll will win the day 9 times out of 10.

^THis is the biggest problem

Rump Buffalo.2594:

problem with mechanics like boon removal is that the majority of classes dont have it.

defiance and bad telegraphing dont allow for interrupts and because people dont die but go down (dont get me wrong i love the downed system) it is hard to get an interrupt thing to work. Best would be if defiant/unshakable was a 15sec buff that make them immune to CC. No stacks, just 15 sec, then its off and u get 1 cc, then 15 sec. Does the same job, better, and allows for interrupt mechanics without cc locking bosses. Maybe a skill (enemies) that hits everyone after 5 seconds. Purple beams shoot to everyone, in 5 seconds they will be downed, it must be interrupted. Would need a good description under the enemy title.

When I say boon removal, I don’t really mean necessary boon removal. The idea was more like, “This boss gains a huge might and fury buff every so often, so parties without boon removal might actually have to do the fight differently than parties with boon removal”.

As for interrupts, just make the interrupt mechanics come from adds that are veterans/silver and don’t have defiant. Problem solved!

There are many solutions to these types of things for a game designer that can use current mechanics appropriately. Like I said, that kind of thing just has to be explored a bit more.

Sure there are optimal strategies to defeat dungeon encounters, but straight up zerging a boss with players who know how to dodge roll will win the day 9 times out of 10.

^THis is the biggest problem

There are counters to that too. Make bosses that move around more making melee a liability. Put mechanics in that aren’t completely avoided by a single dodge or two. Put in abilities that prevent players from stacking up and time-warp zerging. Make fights that last 5+ minutes even with a full Berserker party, in addition to mechanics that don’t let you sit there and zerg. Easy!

both of those things are true(about the future). They are not true about the game we have. Things can be changed but the way the game is = stale

i agree with what you’re saying. I create interesting mechanics and boss fights for my table top group all the time (i am the DM) but they just dont exist in this game right now.

also honestly i think every class should have the option to have some boon removal

Play the game for (are you ready for this?) fun. If you don’t find anything fun, don’t play it. Why did you grind for stuff in a game you don’t like in the first place? I don’t get this mentality of fun in “setting goals and grinding for them”, cosmetics mean literally nothing in a game you don’t play because you don’t like it.

No one is talking about grinding. I love this game. I had tons of fun leveling.

Bottom line is there is no endgame and u can only complete each zone so many times. Without progression of some sense or challenge what is the point in doing anything? What do you find fun if not overcoming that which was difficult or reaching a new peak that was once beyond your reach?

I dont find running around and wasting time towards no end very fun. That would be like… constantly jerking it with no climax… eventually u get chaffing

There is an ‘end game’ moment. Except in an MMO it’s when you no longer have fun playing it.

In other games you finish the story, kill the boss, save the world, etc and that’s it. You shelve it. Some provide DLC or unlock harder difficulties so, if you still enjoy playing it after knowing the ending, you can have something a little different.

GW2, as an MMO, has tonnes of content. When you no longer load it and say “This is gonna be great…”, I’d say you’ve hit ‘end game’ and should buy a new game. Maybe come back after a month or so to see if you just needed a breather.

Scoundrel.2139:

There is an ‘end game’ moment. Except in an MMO it’s when you no longer have fun playing it.

In other games you finish the story, kill the boss, save the world, etc and that’s it. You shelve it. Some provide DLC or unlock harder difficulties so, if you still enjoy playing it after knowing the ending, you can have something a little different.

GW2, as an MMO, has tonnes of content. When you no longer load it and say “This is gonna be great…”, I’d say you’ve hit ‘end game’ and should buy a new game. Maybe come back after a month or so to see if you just needed a breather.

you have a serious misunderstanding about what end game means in an mmo

No, I have a serious misunderstanding about your ‘end game’ moment is.

Obviously it isn’t that point when the game no longer is fun and you feel like you’re plugging away for absolutely nothing. I can only surmise that must be an integral part of the game for you.

“End Game” in an MMO is what you do once you reach maximum level.

IE in wow (and many other things) that’s usually PvP and Raiding.

In gw2 u can pvp from level 1 and once u get your armor set that is visually appealing to you there isnt any more reason to do more(or more likely the same) content seeing as how you can no longer progress(in pve). At least in pvp there are constant evolving challenges as you constantly (hopefully more so now and after feb 26th) face new players and team compositions/player styles.

Unfortunately the content in pve is neither challenging, nor engaging. It is also not inventive or difficult. Since we have no gear treadmill there is no simplistic progression and since we have all dungeons available to us without barrier of entry or levels of skill required (with the exception of certain fights in fractals/arah everything is stupidly easy) there really are no progressive measures in pvp once you reach max gear/level/aesthetic appeal..which happens VERY quickly.

Endgame usually is a progressive setting that allows you to continue facing new challenges after hitting max level. It is not “the end of the game” and/or climactic moment of gameplay after which credits roll and the game is over(ended).

so i say again, you have a serious misunderstanding about what end game means in an mmo

“End game” for any game is when your done with the content. You ether start over with a different toon, (some games have a harder difficulty level) or move onto another title. Period. Just because its “massive multi player online” does not change that. (the new Tomb Raider following that)

I’ve leveled a toon and have not seen the entire map or done all the dungeons. While I may get most of the PvE map, I no longer have any interest in doing the dungeons.

It would appear that the majority of players are ‘grinding’ or ‘farming’ dungeons for gear sets or Gold/mats for a Legendary. Its good to see that some are simply doing it for fun. After all this is a GAME, it should be fun.

I don’t know what the rest of you will be doing but I’ll be playing Crysis3 before the end of the month.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

Now i dont want a gear treadmill more than anyone else but i have 1 simple question.

I got the look i want on a character, what reason do i have to ever play it again without something to look forward to > progress into

WVW

/thread.

I must agree with this thread. I’ve been playing for like a month and a half. Got to 80, got my exotic set, don’t see a reason to bother with a legendary weapon as the stats aren’t any better. Nothing left to do now. Guess I’ll find something else to play.

DeathPanel.8362:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

Now i dont want a gear treadmill more than anyone else but i have 1 simple question.

I got the look i want on a character, what reason do i have to ever play it again without something to look forward to > progress into

WVW

/thread.

WvW is heavily imbalanced, zergy, not all that strategic, definitely not HARD or CHALLENGING, and it doesnt offer progression.

I like wvw… to an extent, but it doesnt answer anything in this thread

the lack of overall progression in this game
sPvP: No ladders *(i know theyre coming)
PvE: No progressive dungeons or gear(not that i want a treadmill). Event chains are VERY short in most places and are very shallow and repetitive (kill the invading centaurs!)

WvW: No progression…