Guild Wars 2

I hadn’t played GW2 in ages and decided to check what’s new and start a new character.

Besides finding that most of the bugs I reported over one year ago are still there (even some typos – how long can it take to fix that?) and that stealth is now seriously broken in PvE, I’ve now leveled my character high enough to do dungeons.

And it seems Arena Net went to the trouble of changing them (AC, at least), but somehow managed to make them even worse.

In AC story:

• The troll is now insanely imbalanced for level 30 players (1-shot kills, attacks that go through walls and ignore stealth, etc.).
• The “punchbag” bosses that just stood there (Kasha, Adelbern, etc.) still do just that (if anything, they seem to have been nerfed; you can now stand inside their AoE for ages). They really highlight the need for a /yawn emote.
• The boulders now magically disappear every time they hit someone (they were the only thing that made the punchbag bosses fun – you know, fun, that thing people play games for?)
• Ralena and Vassar no longer run to each other at 50% (the only part of the fight that required some awareness and tactics – now you just have to keep looking at the UI to see if you have confusion, and make sure someone has a bouncing attack to kill the little ghosts)

In AC explorable:

• Half the encounters are now doable simply by stacking in some corner and casting randomly at the ground (sometimes without even seeing the enemy, due to the way the camera still gets stuck in walls). Blind spam wins the day 9 times out of 10.
• The burrows in paths 1 and 3 are still DPS races, and having an elementalist with a frost bow still means instant win (while having five mesmers still means almost guaranteed fail). No wonder LFG is full of people asking for specific classes and pure DPS builds.
• The only thing that seems to have been made more interesting was the final boss in path 2 (ghost eater / patriarch), but the new mechanics effectively make it into a DPS race as well (because players tend to just charge the three traps before pulling, and restart if the boss doesn’t die before those run out of charge); a much better design would be to have just one trap and encourage players to alternate between damaging the boss and recharging the trap.

I won’t say it’s as bad as what Blizzard did to the Deadmines in Cataclysm (because the original Deadmines were a lot more fun than any GW2 dungeon), but it’s pretty depressing to come back one year later and find that things moved backwards. Maybe the other dungeons have been improved, but I have a feeling that won’t be the case.

In addition to that, players still get booted from dungeons if the first one to enter has to leave (or gets disconnected, or decides to be a jerk), players still get almost no rewards if they leave (or get disconnected, or kicked) before the chest pop-up at the end, and players who join just before that pop-up still get the full reward (even if they don’t participate in the dungeon at all – no wonder LFG is full of people basically selling dungeon tokens).

Even assuming their in-house testing was horrible and they hadn’t spotted any of these things before release, surely they must be aware of them by now. How can it take a year and a half to fix this?

It seems Arena Net spent all this time adding temporary content (which new and returning players can’t even see) and adding a new and incredibly grindy tier of gear (which no one wanted – most people who came to GW2 from other games left those games precisely because they were tired of “stat upgrade” grinds), instead of fixing bugs and design flaws. And when they finally decide to change a dungeon, they make it worse.

How can a company get its pre-release “manifestos” so right and then get the execution so wrong? Were the guys who left to form Undead Labs the ones who had that original (inspired and inspiring) vision? Also, how hard can it be to hire someone with a clue (i.e., imagination and an understanding of fun) about dungeon design?

They made this change months ago. This is why you don’t see many people outside of AC anymore.

Like I said, i didn’t play for a long time (after they decided to add ascended gear and the agony resist grind).

I assume the reason why you don’t see people outside dungeons is they’re using LFG (which, by the way, gives a great picture of how sad dungeons in GW2 have become – it’s just people posting insults and selling supposedly “soulbound” tokens for gold).

Factotum.2093:

Like I said, i didn’t play for a long time (after they decided to add ascended gear and the agony resist grind).

I assume the reason why you don’t see people outside dungeons is they’re using LFG (which, by the way, gives a great picture of how sad dungeons in GW2 have become – it’s just people posting insults and selling supposedly “soulbound” tokens for gold).

Account bound!

Besides, nobody is forcing you to ascalonian catacombs and nobody is forcing you to stack. Without stacking queen spider is a very challenging boss. You should try it

The new AC explo is a lot better than the old one.
Spider queen, kholer and the p2 end boss all have some nice mechanics, just because players have this habit to find ways to cheese bosses (and I know I do) doesn’t mean the boss design is complete kitten.

I’m sorry you missed the part when we were still learning this new dungeon, now it’s all about stacking in corners and charging traps beforehand.

No wonder people are so awful in dungeons, they need to fix this or people become lazy.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Account bound!

Irrelevant distinction (I tend to think of “soulbound” as bound to the player anyway, not the character – which would be “character bound”, although some games do use “soul” to mean the character instead of the player controlling it).

The fact is tokens are supposed to be a reward for fighting your way through the dungeon, but in reality they’re just a reward for being in the party when the final pop-up appears, easily tradable through the LFG system.

Ravenmoon.5318:

nobody is forcing you to stack.

Actually, pretty much every player you meet in LFG these days is forcing you to stack, and guildies aren’t always available or interested in doing the same dungeons you are.

The fact that stacking is so advantageous shows how badly designed some encounters are.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Without stacking queen spider is a very challenging boss. You should try it

I have “tried” it. Dozens (possibly hundreds) of times, over one year ago, before the stackmania kicked in. And no, she’s not a very challenging boss. The only vague “challenge” is seeing which way she’s pointing when she decides to back 80% of her body into a wall.

Make your own group. Do what you want.

FYI attacks that ignore stealth…. umm all of them that require dont require a target aka pretty much most of them?

Factotum, explorable mode dungeons in GW2 are pretty terrible. I came from WoW too, so I understand. Dungeons are pretty much the only part of GW2 that appear blatantly defective. The best you’ll get to an experience you recall is doing the story modes. The explorables do not have nearly the same strength. The bosses really are not that difficult, but in time the correct way has become the cheesy way (simply because it is faster and more foolproof in a PuG setting.) There will be no change from the player until arenanet requires it. I’m sure the developers are well aware of the sad dungeon state. Possibly lacking here is time, manpower, monetary resources, and decisional authority. My understanding is that most of the dungeon team does living story now. Unless there is someone in one of the back room teams are working on major overhauls, these needed changes may take some time to emerge.

Sounds to me like you should be playing wow then…

I did for too long. But I cannot get back into it. I’d prefer seeing a bit more of it leak in to GW2 than go back. Someone in another thread posted about some large-sized talent from Blizzard leaving. Perhaps he can fill the void left by that Hrouda fella. But again, resources may be lacking.

Stacking and LoS is common in all dungeons. not just AC. Along with that, the meta right now is DPS, DPS and more DPS, hence the reason groups look for certain classes and ask for it in lfg.

Fact is people just want to cruise through these dungeons and not risk a wipe so they can quickly get their rewards and I don’t blame them. Who wants to go into an exp path with a group of PUG’s, spend 2 hours, wipe 15 times and then disband and get nothing out of it? Sadly, it’s the PUG life.

get used to stacking or else your in for a rough time of 2 hours for all ac paths

There was at one stage a plan to revise all the dungeons and AC was the first. After seeing the AC revamp the plan was dropped and you probably know why. So yes you spotted the troll from the explorable mode who was inherited in story mode as well. A lot of the fights are no better or worse than the old AC but just different. The revised bosses were potentially more interesting but are beaten by stacking rather than skill. The NPCs are do have a better involvement but your reliance on them is exposed when they get bugged.

Overall it isn’t any more difficult for experienced players but it isn’t more fun either. New players get wiped harder and experienced players use dull stacking instead of skillful play.

cranked.3812:

Stacking and LoS is common in all dungeons.

Yes, I know. And while LoS pulls make perfect sense (to get the enemies in a bunch and maximize your party’s own AoE), what doesn’t make any sense is that standing there (right on top of the enemy) makes things so much easier instead of harder.

Remember when they used to say “you won’t be able to just stand there and tank the enemies” ?

Simply adding some I (intelligence) to the AI, and making them try to move out of player AoE would make things more realistic and a bit less silly.

Gsjlink.4673:

I’m sure the developers are well aware of the sad dungeon state. Possibly lacking here is time, manpower, monetary resources, and decisional authority.

I think you’re right about the latter. I’ve seen lots of people described as “GW2 lead designer”. Too many cooks tend to spoil the broth. Dungeons are somewhat separate so they can have its own “sub designer”, but they do need to be designed / overseen by someone with vision, imagination, and a good notion of fun and fairness.

I get the feeling the actual dungeons where designed by (at least) three separate groups of people (one creating the geometry, another coding the creature behavior, and another deciding where to put each creature), and that those three groups never really communicated with each other, let alone with the playtesters.

A good example of this is all the creatures that just stand in a single spot, and basically behave like turrets, but use humanoid models. It’s as if there wasn’t even any attempt to create the dungeon as a believable whole.

why would ranging mobs after LoSing them be possible? theyd just scatter and fyi tanking =/= dodging
edit: and even if the mobs get better ai and run out of the LoS ball theyll be killed so fast it wont matter

Factotum.2093:

cranked.3812:

Stacking and LoS is common in all dungeons.

Yes, I know. And while LoS pulls make perfect sense (to get the enemies in a bunch and maximize your party’s own AoE), what doesn’t make any sense is that standing there (right on top of the enemy) makes things so much easier instead of harder.

Remember when they used to say “you won’t be able to just stand there and tank the enemies” ?

Simply adding some I (intelligence) to the AI, and making them try to move out of player AoE would make things more realistic and a bit less silly.

When you pull enemies to a stacked position you are not tanking them, you are bursting them down with fast DPS.

I don’t see anet adding any kind of AI. Their idea of harder content is making bigger damage sponges, more of them and silly mechanics that do nothing but make fights longer and more boring.

You know what a good fight is? The Molten Duo. I love that fight

Ascalonian Catacombs was the first instance to be updated in the so-called “Phase 2” of the dungeon revamp one year ago. Phase 1 removed “res-rushing” from all dungeons, and also resulted in massive nerfs to most of the story and explorable mode encounters. “Phase 2” was to rebalance everything once the dust settled.

The Dungeon Team was dissolved some time shortly after AC was released. (We aren’t certain when for sure) This was likely done to put more teams behind their Living World updates instead. It’s safe to say Phase 2 ended with AC and also explains why the other dungeons have only received minor tweaks.

the AC revamp was poor as was the decision to give one of the highest rewards for it.

Now AC is the number 2 source of gold for people who knows how trivialize content.

(number one being arah…)

Ravenmoon.5318:

Without stacking queen spider is a very challenging boss. You should try it

She is easier if you don’t stack.

ranged: possibility of falling asleep and unable to move out of circle
melee: the one with aggro gets hit, the rest do whatever they want
stacked: if you (or your party) are terrible you die

She’s very easy to solo so there’s no reason a group needs to stack.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Without stacking queen spider is a very challenging boss. You should try it

Just the opposite. A party full of lvl 35 new players (that means no alts) can handle the boss better than stacking
Ran AC with new players both in my guild and random PUGs. Not stacking was not as fast as stacking, but we ended up killing the boss without wiping

Even though the poison fields last longer, the spider queen will hardly have more than 3. Then you only need someone to get her attention and kite around so the others won’t take damage from the immobilizing web attack

“Just the opposite. A party full of lvl 35 new players (that means no alts) can handle the boss better than stacking”

I’m guessing you made sure the new inexperienced players had full missile defense as the small spider adds will wipe most groups without that. The corner is amazingly effective since it deals with all the spiders whilst most cc and defense skills cannot affect all the spiders since they are spread all over the room.

Factotum.2093:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Account bound!

Irrelevant distinction (I tend to think of “soulbound” as bound to the player anyway, not the character – which would be “character bound”, although some games do use “soul” to mean the character instead of the player controlling it).

The fact is tokens are supposed to be a reward for fighting your way through the dungeon, but in reality they’re just a reward for being in the party when the final pop-up appears, easily tradable through the LFG system.

Ravenmoon.5318:

nobody is forcing you to stack.

Actually, pretty much every player you meet in LFG these days is forcing you to stack, and guildies aren’t always available or interested in doing the same dungeons you are.

The fact that stacking is so advantageous shows how badly designed some encounters are.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Without stacking queen spider is a very challenging boss. You should try it

I have “tried” it. Dozens (possibly hundreds) of times, over one year ago, before the stackmania kicked in. And no, she’s not a very challenging boss. The only vague “challenge” is seeing which way she’s pointing when she decides to back 80% of her body into a wall.

Obviously from all that stacking you haven’t noticed that the boss has been updated alongside with the dungeon. But yeah, I’ll take your word for it…sure

I don t know things are like they are right know and its good enjoy while u can like in every game sooner or later it changes and then it will become undoable ( or nearly ) in gw1 for example we farmed Gryphons until they changed it then we farmed Trolls thil they changed it so ENJOY till u can :P

cranked.3812:

When you pull enemies to a stacked position you are not tanking them, you are bursting them down with fast DPS.

If that was the case, stacking would be irrelevant; as long as everyone was casting their abilities on the boss (ex., standing around it), they would achieve the same effect. But they don’t. And even a group of unskilled and low DPS players can last for a long time simply through the “magic” of stacking (that’s why so many groups of unskilled players do it).

Stacking does enable you to “tank” (most) enemies much better, because every party member’s short-radius fields affect everyone, giving more boons, clearing conditions faster, etc., and because the boss’s attacks tend to affect only one (more or less random) player of the bunch, so incoming heals and outgoing damage increase, while incoming damage does not (and it also makes reviving faster, etc.).

cranked.3812:

I don’t see anet adding any kind of AI. Their idea of harder content is making bigger damage sponges, more of them and silly mechanics that do nothing but make fights longer and more boring.

Unfortunately, I suspect you’re right.

And they’re also busy adding crippleware-style “upgrades” to the gem store now…

Factotum.2093:

cranked.3812:

When you pull enemies to a stacked position you are not tanking them, you are bursting them down with fast DPS.

If that was the case, stacking would be irrelevant; as long as everyone was casting their abilities on the boss (ex., standing around it), they would achieve the same effect. But they don’t. And even a group of unskilled and low DPS players can last for a long time simply through the “magic” of stacking (that’s why so many groups of unskilled players do it).

Stacking does enable you to “tank” (most) enemies much better, because every party member’s short-radius fields affect everyone, giving more boons, clearing conditions faster, etc., and because the boss’s attacks tend to affect only one (more or less random) player of the bunch, so incoming heals and outgoing damage increase, while incoming damage does not (and it also makes reviving faster, etc.).

Eh, no. The reality is that most bosses, if not all bosses, have cleave-style attacks, which makes stacking actually MORE dangerous because there is far more DPS spread out across the team. Take, for instance since we’re talking AC, the Spider Queen. Her web line damage now hits the entire team because you’re stacked up. Her melee attack now bleeds and weakens the entire team because you’re stacked up. This is why berserkers in groups with others who have low DPS tend to go down frequently, and it is because their single DPS against the entire team’s low DPS doesn’t compensate effectively for the fact that they can’t kill the creature faster when sitting and eating damage. This is especially true of veritable glass cannon builds like LH elementalists.

When you stack, you’re attempting to funnel multiple mobs into corners so that skills like Whirlwind Attack (Warrior GS 3) or Fiery Rush (Ele FGS 4) hit multiple times, and also so that multiple enemy mobs stack exactly on top of each other, magnifying the team’s own cleave damage output. This is all about do more damage to the mobs in the fastest possible way, certainly not tanking them.

All parties don’t care if its more dangerous to stack anymore. If you don’t do it they will blame you for everything.
The spider queen does its aoe splash and wipe everyone because of you.
If you die outside of the stack, they will blame you for not near them to be raised.
If they all die inside the stack they will blame you for not staying there to raise them.
They will blame you for not stacking might or other boons on everyone thus killing mobs slower.
They will blame you for dying in the stack cos you couldn’t see anything and not able to dodge any attack when every particle effect blasted on the whole screen blinding you with odd camera angles with everyone clipping through each other doing hundreds of actions.

The bottom line, if you don’t follow what everybody is doing , you an nuisance , a burden and a troll to bog down the elite team and they do not hesitate kick you by the slightest hiccup .

Also cleric builds are not welcome along with noobs.

I actually find AC to have some of the more interesting bosses, mechanics-wise, than many other dungeons.

Maybe but yet its not the easiest dungeon as it should be, while before it was perfect to introduce players to dungeons.

After the change the first unexperienced friendly dungeon its at level 75 ._.