Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Mightybird.6034:

So super well said from the other thread I had to quote it.

Personally I consider Lupi a great fight and he doesn’t act like a player. I want more fight’s like lupi. If one boss mob; multi stages and patterns of attack. if multiple mobs; synergystic abilities between them that makes a pattern but not player like kiting or snaring or dodging

*ahh had quoted NikeEU but it was too long.

Some people prefer that style, but its not inherrently better.

basically you dislike moving, because dodge isnt different than a skill that gives evasion/blocks or invuln, other than the fact that they change the positioning.

I think players should have to work to have an enemy let them stay in an advantageous position sometimes.

“dislike moving.”

If you’re going to misrepresent a position, please refrain from entering the discussion. If you’ve ever seen a modern raid in a raiding game the players are CONSTANTLY moving. No spot is ever safe for more than a handful of seconds. Modern raid design is all about moving. This has been explained to you before but you keep repeating the same incorrect statement so I assume you’re a troll.

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

Mightybird.6034:

So super well said from the other thread I had to quote it.

Personally I consider Lupi a great fight and he doesn’t act like a player. I want more fight’s like lupi. If one boss mob; multi stages and patterns of attack. if multiple mobs; synergystic abilities between them that makes a pattern but not player like kiting or snaring or dodging

*ahh had quoted NikeEU but it was too long.

Some people prefer that style, but its not inherrently better.

basically you dislike moving, because dodge isnt different than a skill that gives evasion/blocks or invuln, other than the fact that they change the positioning.

I think players should have to work to have an enemy let them stay in an advantageous position sometimes.

“dislike moving.”

If you’re going to misrepresent a position, please refrain from entering the discussion. If you’ve ever seen a modern raid in a raiding game the players are CONSTANTLY moving. No spot is ever safe for more than a handful of seconds. Modern raid design is all about moving. This has been explained to you before but you keep repeating the same incorrect statement so I assume you’re a troll.

So then whats your problem with an enemy that can dodge. or one that snares you when you mess up. Or one that kites?

and content in raids is not universal, refering to content in raids is like saying in books something happens.

most raids i have recently played only have moving at predetermined intervals. do X move now, do z move now, burn, etc.

I already explained why enemies who dodge or snares are bad pve design. Try reading that again and catch up to the discussion and stop trolling.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/General-Dungeon-Discussion-Thread-Part-2/5077603

Chasing kiting enemies is OMG fun.

/s

phys.7689:

Mightybird.6034:

So super well said from the other thread I had to quote it.

Personally I consider Lupi a great fight and he doesn’t act like a player. I want more fight’s like lupi. If one boss mob; multi stages and patterns of attack. if multiple mobs; synergystic abilities between them that makes a pattern but not player like kiting or snaring or dodging

*ahh had quoted NikeEU but it was too long.

Some people prefer that style, but its not inherrently better.

basically you dislike moving, because dodge isnt different than a skill that gives evasion/blocks or invuln, other than the fact that they change the positioning.

I think players should have to work to have an enemy let them stay in an advantageous position sometimes.

I’d rather they approached it from a different direction if the goal is to get us to actively move around the field. Grawl Shaman is a good one. Having unblockable/dodgeable AE’s that simply force you to circle around would be another good option. Heck even repeated attacks that can be evaded/blocked can have us dancing (sureshot saemus).

I think that’d be much better than nullying field damage and the implications that has.

NikeEU.7690:

I already explained why enemies who dodge or snares are bad pve design. Try reading that again and catch up to the discussion and stop trolling.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/General-Dungeon-Discussion-Thread-Part-2/5077603

you keep refering to your own post and ignoring that you basically declare your personal opinions as incontrivertible fact.

PvE mobs that dodge, evade, or kite are inherently annoying.

opinion

When enemy mobs snare you it’s annoying because it very rarely means you’re going to die, it just delays the inevitable

that depends on the design of the encounter.
snare that can be followed by an attack, or change in tactics that causes you to die
Also, this is an action based game, if the snare was unavoidable, you might have a point, but going slower because you got caught/messed up is valid in combat. you also have condition clears, etc for when you do mess up.

By the same token there are plenty of mobs in GW2 that have built in evade (Kohler, CM archers etc) and they are simply annoying rather than fun.

opinion, many people enjoy kholer.

Let’s say a mob dodges 1/3rd of all attacks. OK, well how is that any different from just having 1/3rd more HP when all is said and done? It really isn’t. The end result is the same but it’s much more annoying for a player to miss with his skills than to land with his skills even if kill times are identical. People playing the game like their big flashy attacks and spells. They like seeing big numbers. If my choice was a boss who evaded every third attack and one with 33% more HP I’ll take the second one any day.

if they designed a mob that dodged every 3rd attack that would be odd, but once again you have simplified the game inaccurately.
the mob would have access to a certain amount of dodges per time frame. If he does dodge, you change your tactics with that in mind. If you want to force an offensive push, instead of waiting for the mob to dodge poorly, you make use of CC, or immobilize.
so an enemy that can dodge, now has multiple ways of being dealth with
bait the dodge then use your big attacks at the right time
CC him then use the big attacks.
now this npc is more able to defeated by skillfull use of DPS, than an npc who simply has 33% more HP. Also people playing must actually pay more attention and get greater gains for it.

I get that you like predetermined sequences of events, and all that. Like learning to play a song on the piano. Its cool, fun and exciting.
However, it is not the only type of difficulty. There is also jazz

Mobs that dodge are annoying. Do you remember all the complaints about the dodging inquest at the start of season 2?

Now if a boss is going to heal or do a long channeled block. Thats different. Give the players the chance to interrupt those abilities. That way you have boss counters which can be countered. Dodges have no counter.

dlonie.6547:

Chasing kiting enemies is OMG fun.

/s

poor execution of an idea is poor execution of an idea.
Also some things just wont be liked by certain people, even if well executed. Some people like playing tag, and some people hate it.

MMOs are supposed to be big and varied. They shouldnt be designing content thats the same for everything. Making a couple of encounters play out differently isnt the end of the world

opinion

do you enjoy not landing your spells because RNG decided the mob wanted to dodge?

because i’ll tell you I have never in my life enjoyed eviscerating a mob just for a giant “evaded” to appear.

or how about the CM archers that just spam evades for no reason?

opinion, many people enjoy kholer.

pretty sure “many people” either skip him or just sit in a corner, smash skills, roll their eyes at the “evaded” and just want him to hurry up and die.

CC him then use the big attacks.
now this npc is more able to defeated by skillfull use of DPS, than an npc who simply has 33% more HP. Also people playing must actually pay more attention and get greater gains for it.

so….

ice bow 5 and burst

which is the current state of dungeons now

spoj.9672:

Mobs that dodge are annoying. Do you remember all the complaints about the dodging inquest at the start of season 2?

Now if a boss is going to heal or do a long channeled block. Thats different. Give the players the chance to interrupt those abilities. That way you have boss counters which can be countered. Dodges have no counter.

people complain about things all the time. thats not a reason for something being a good or bad idea, on that basis alone.

dodges are prevented by;
immobilize
stun
knockdowns

they are limited by
endurance regen aka time
mitigated by;
weakness

Yeah except theres a problem with dodges. They do not have tells. They evade as soon as they start. And theres no way to tell when a mob is going to dodge. You cannot counter that. You can only reduce the chance of it trolling you. Thats not fun and its not good design. Good design allows you to counter everything with skilled play and the right tools.

If you make a boss perform a tell and then evade. Thats different. I can maybe get behind that because it can be countered. But if the boss then tries to evade again immediately after the stun runs out then its just stupid and annoying.

maha.7902:

opinion

do you enjoy not landing your spells because RNG decided the mob wanted to dodge?

because i’ll tell you I have never in my life enjoyed eviscerating a mob just for a giant “evaded” to appear.

or how about the CM archers that just spam evades for no reason?

opinion, many people enjoy kholer.

pretty sure “many people” either skip him or just sit in a corner, smash skills, roll their eyes at the “evaded” and just want him to hurry up and die.

CC him then use the big attacks.
now this npc is more able to defeated by skillfull use of DPS, than an npc who simply has 33% more HP. Also people playing must actually pay more attention and get greater gains for it.

so….

ice bow 5 and burst

which is the current state of dungeons now

except ice bow is OP and getting nerfed, and defiance bar may be up in the mix.
combine that with an enemy that moves somewhat.

and now for the big burst you have to either exhaust his evades, or coordinate CC, while coordinating your short term buffs so he is actually in the right place at the right time.

which is more in depth, and uses more skill sets than him standing there while you burst him.

once again, the goal is not to make an enemy that is indefeatable, the goal is to make an enemy that engages you, and make it so you have to earn your biggest dmg.

you ever play a fighting game?
with some practice you can pull off a multi hit combo against a stationary opponent in practice.
its not quite the same doing it against a moving NPC who hits back/blocks etc.

spoj.9672:

Yeah except theres a problem with dodges. They do not have tells. They evade as soon as they start. And theres no way to tell when a mob is going to dodge. You cannot counter that. You can only reduce the chance of it trolling you. Thats not fun and its not good design. Good design allows you to counter everything with skilled play and the right tools.

If you make a boss perform a tell and then evade. Thats different. I can maybe get behind that because it can be countered. But if the boss then tries to evade again immediately after the stun runs out then its just stupid and annoying.

some parts of combat are predictive, some parts are reactive.
if you are afraid of using your powerful skills/combos on a guy who can evade, you bait them, use attacks with lower damage/safe, or bait them, then when the enemy over commits you take advantage. This is the type of depth of combat that is missing when you go with orchestrated difficulty. Its simple, and deep, push and pull, act and react.

lets say an enemy has only 1 dodge on its endurance bar, recharges 1/10 seconds

you use immobilize skill;
outcome 1;
he gets hit by it, now you react quickly and unload a quick dps hit
if your team is coordinated, the other teamates stack on their longer duration/longer cooldown immobilizes to extend the opening for a longer dps burst.
outcome 2; he dodges it
now you can unload a bigger DPS hit, you baited his dodge, and you have 10 seconds of dodge free behavior.
if you got weakness on him before hand he has even longer.

so now, you have players having to react differently based on how the enemy decided to deal with something. they have to be ready to take advantage more easily. How well they can react, determines how good a burst they can get on the npc. It doesnt however destroy you not to handle it perfectly.

keep in mind, i wouldnt do this for every enemy. You vary enemy encounters just like you vary playstyles. Some guys dont dodge, but mitigate/block, some guys move a lot.

and not every enemy should obviously be that deep. You dont put super high brow mechanics on mobs people are supposed to terminate in moments, or tear through.

I just fail to see how that’s more fun.

Yeah reactive is good. Predictive is also fine. But in the case of your idea. You are predicting a window where you will just miss attacks. Baiting out a dodge in PvE is such an unspired and unfun way to add depth to an encounter. Because you are going to do it automatically with an auto attack 9 times out of 10. And its just going to be a “oh yay i missed some damage” moment. Thats not even remotely engaging.

You can tell me my statements are opinions, as if that somehow invalidated them, but the fact is that my opinions are based on a lot of experience in this game and others. You don’t have to take my opinions as gospel, but by the same token you’d be a fool to think they were unfounded and be dismissive.

For what it’s worth, Kohler’s dodges and the CM archers and the inquest assassins and any other pve enemy with built in random dodges are objectively poor game design for all the reasons I and others outlined. As Spoj alluded to, boss mechanics without legitimate counterplay are stupid. Good PvE game design is based around the concept of question and answers. The boss asks a question and you either have the answer or you fail. the boss can ask a lot of questions. The boss can ask really hard questions. But they should still be questions. If there is no answer (lol auto evade every 3rd attack nothing you can do about it) that’s just uninteresting design and fake challenge.

Yeah, random dodges is a bad idea. I think a better mechanic to a boss is detecting spikes in damage or CC and reacting defensively, so players have to use tools to ensure those defenses are either diminished or don’t kick in.

Because another issue with the game as it is is that HP on mobs is so high because the damage ceiling from players is already really high.

I don’t know of a boss fight that lasts more than 5 minutes. So how can you create layered, interesting multi stage encounters if players can burst so much damage that they can reliably skip the encounter mechanisms or largely neuter the windows for error by shortening the fight so much.

And this goes to an error in design as well, where they say they are streamlining all these traits because they want to reduce bad choices from players, but the the biggest offenders in bad choices — gear and combo fields, the largest contributors to DPS-- are left alone, creating huge gaps in potential DPS.

I’d like to point out that Terragriffs (non champ) are a good version of movement with counterplay. Keep Immob/chill/cripple on it and it’ll trip and fall when attempting to charge across. I find them interseting, the visual radius of their attacks annoying, but I appreciate the design. Now the Thrashers that just run around… just kitten annoying, nothing entertaining about them, movement effect don’t do anything, it’s just… ugh.

and now for the big burst you have to either exhaust his evades, or coordinate CC, while coordinating your short term buffs so he is actually in the right place at the right time.

short term buffs like 28s stacks of might from strength runes?

and co-ordinating cc already happens, it’s not the epitome of fun that you seem to think it is, because what actually happens is you chain CCs to make it so a boss basically goes afk for anything between half and an entire fight while you cast your dps rotation in between.

once again, the goal is not to make an enemy that is indefeatable, the goal is to make an enemy that engages you, and make it so you have to earn your biggest dmg.

and enemies engaging you with RNG dodges is not enjoyable to me or a lot of people, unless you can honestly tell me with a straight face that you enjoy the idea of casting a dps rotation and then every now and then the game just going “oops, no damage for you” while you carry on destroying the enemy regardless.

I don’t think enemies dodging in this game is good mainly because of how the combat system is implemented. In terms of fighting mobs, it gets pretty chaotic where 4 of your teammates are casting their attacks/spells almost nonstop. There are games that center around dodge/block mechanics. In the Witcher, enemies will almost always dodge/block(90% chance) my attacks if I try to attack them straight up. The way to counter their dodge/blocks is 3ways:
1: I can use my super limited CC skills to stun them and go in for the attack.
2: I can counter attack them when they are about to attack.
3: I can side dodge their attack and hit them from behind.

Why this would suck in gw2:
1: Using CC in gw2 never feels smart, it always feel like its a spamfest.
2: Getting your teammates to stop attacking a enemy to force them out of a block/dodge stance is impossible feat in pugs.
3: Counterattacks are fun when its in melee range as there is a risk involved. GW2 is range focused. Counter attack is also a form of stun which is not implemented in GW2’s engine.
4: Back hitting to counter block does not exist in gw2. There are too many targets a enemy can target which means their backs are pretty easy to get to for 4/5 members.

NikeEU.7690:

You can tell me my statements are opinions, as if that somehow invalidated them, but the fact is that my opinions are based on a lot of experience in this game and others. You don’t have to take my opinions as gospel, but by the same token you’d be a fool to think they were unfounded and be dismissive.

For what it’s worth, Kohler’s dodges and the CM archers and the inquest assassins and any other pve enemy with built in random dodges are objectively poor game design for all the reasons I and others outlined. As Spoj alluded to, boss mechanics without legitimate counterplay are stupid. Good PvE game design is based around the concept of question and answers. The boss asks a question and you either have the answer or you fail. the boss can ask a lot of questions. The boss can ask really hard questions. But they should still be questions. If there is no answer (lol auto evade every 3rd attack nothing you can do about it) that’s just uninteresting design and fake challenge.

like i said, if they design in like auto evade every X attacks, it would be fairly odd, because they already figured out that dodge should have a limited resource, and limited use for players, why would they give npcs guaranteed/unlimited ones? One would assume they would be even more limited, especially since players arent used to dealing with it.

the point of enemy evasion/blocks/movement in a game is to make it so you have to “catch” the enemy for maximum benefit. instead of just unleashing your maximum dps at will, or after a specific interval, you have to force the enemy to react, and then react when it puts itself in a disadvantegous situation.

sure if they design so its just a random invulnerability with no consequences/resources/etc then it would be stupid, but it would be just as stupid for them to have the enemy have an aoe damage skill that hits everyone in the room no matter what they do randomly.

evasion in a fight no more equals random unstoppable limitless dodges
than
damage equals random unstoppable limitless damage.

phys.7689:

the point of enemy evasion/blocks/movement in a game is to make it so you have to “catch” the enemy for maximum benefit. instead of just unleashing your maximum dps at will, or after a specific interval, you have to force the enemy to react, and then react when it puts itself in a disadvantegous situation.

And this is your idea of good pve boss design? Really?

sure if they design so its just a random invulnerability with no consequences/resources/etc then it would be stupid, but it would be just as stupid for them to have the enemy have an aoe damage skill that hits everyone in the room no matter what they do randomly.

evasion in a fight no more equals random unstoppable limitless dodges
than
damage equals random unstoppable limitless damage.

I don’t even have the least understanding what this means. Is this some non-existant either/or scenario? These aren’t our only two options. This false dilemma you’ve constructed is bizarre and completely irrelevant to the discussion.

We don’t really need to conjecturize, we have examples already in game. Lupicus is a boss designed how I suggest they be designed for one. Kohler is a boss designed like you would have it be with frequent evade frames until you CC or immob him. One is fun the other is annoying. You can be contrarian and say that KOhler is probably more fun to some people than Lupicus is, which while true is no different than saying some people prefer dirty dishwater to expensive wine and therefore we should offer more dirty dishwater for drink in restaurants.

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

You can tell me my statements are opinions, as if that somehow invalidated them, but the fact is that my opinions are based on a lot of experience in this game and others. You don’t have to take my opinions as gospel, but by the same token you’d be a fool to think they were unfounded and be dismissive.

For what it’s worth, Kohler’s dodges and the CM archers and the inquest assassins and any other pve enemy with built in random dodges are objectively poor game design for all the reasons I and others outlined. As Spoj alluded to, boss mechanics without legitimate counterplay are stupid. Good PvE game design is based around the concept of question and answers. The boss asks a question and you either have the answer or you fail. the boss can ask a lot of questions. The boss can ask really hard questions. But they should still be questions. If there is no answer (lol auto evade every 3rd attack nothing you can do about it) that’s just uninteresting design and fake challenge.

like i said, if they design in like auto evade every X attacks, it would be fairly odd, because they already figured out that dodge should have a limited resource, and limited use for players, why would they give npcs guaranteed/unlimited ones? One would assume they would be even more limited, especially since players arent used to dealing with it.

the point of enemy evasion/blocks/movement in a game is to make it so you have to “catch” the enemy for maximum benefit. instead of just unleashing your maximum dps at will, or after a specific interval, you have to force the enemy to react, and then react when it puts itself in a disadvantegous situation.

sure if they design so its just a random invulnerability with no consequences/resources/etc then it would be stupid, but it would be just as stupid for them to have the enemy have an aoe damage skill that hits everyone in the room no matter what they do randomly.

evasion in a fight no more equals random unstoppable limitless dodges
than
damage equals random unstoppable limitless damage.

Again, Terragriffs are pretty great in this sense with Indigo ones you use special mechanics to stop them, and with your standard trash just movement impeding conditions.

With evades though I just can’t help but cringe.

If the goal is to make us try and think about when we burst and potentially hold back some skills for more opportune times they can do it in so many better ways than evades.

Been playin MMORPGs since 1999. A mob that dodges is the same as having your skills have a miss % (which they did use to in EQ.) You randomly missing 1/10th of the time isn’t fun.

PvP can be fun because you KNOW its a person. Its simply NOT fun when its AI.

Further, games HAVE tried this sort of thing in the past. The old elder scrolls alphas/betas had it (not elder scrolls online, I’m talking single player morrowind and such) people HATED it (mobs kited you, took cover, etc.)

The fact is actual gaming companies have tried it in several forms already and its failed.

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

the point of enemy evasion/blocks/movement in a game is to make it so you have to “catch” the enemy for maximum benefit. instead of just unleashing your maximum dps at will, or after a specific interval, you have to force the enemy to react, and then react when it puts itself in a disadvantegous situation.

And this is your idea of good pve boss design? Really?

sure if they design so its just a random invulnerability with no consequences/resources/etc then it would be stupid, but it would be just as stupid for them to have the enemy have an aoe damage skill that hits everyone in the room no matter what they do randomly.

evasion in a fight no more equals random unstoppable limitless dodges
than
damage equals random unstoppable limitless damage.

I don’t even have the least understanding what this means. Is this some non-existant either/or scenario? These aren’t our only two options. This false dilemma you’ve constructed is bizarre and completely irrelevant to the discussion.

We don’t really need to conjecturize, we have examples already in game. Lupicus is a boss designed how I suggest they be designed for one. Kohler is a boss designed like you would have it be with frequent evade frames until you CC or immob him. One is fun the other is annoying. You can be contrarian and say that KOhler is probably more fun to some people than Lupicus is, which while true is no different than saying some people prefer dirty dishwater to expensive wine and therefore we should offer more dirty dishwater for drink in restaurants.

kholer is not the way i would design an enemy that evades.

Well, let’s hold on a second here.

A lot of this discussion basically boils down to our collective understanding of AI and our ideas for how to design around it’s restrictions. Since it’s so central to the discussion, let’s just take a minute to talk about AI.

                            Sandwhich Making Sequence
                                       /           |                        \
Get bread out of fridge     Select Flavor     Put flavor between two slices bread
                                                       /         \
                                BLT Sequence            PBJ Random Sequence
                           /            |          \                             |           \
     Get Bacon    Get Lettuce   Get Tomato      Get PB    Get Jelly

The AI goes through this performing the actions listed. They generally perform these actions from top to down and then left to right within each level. Whether an action was successful or unsuccessful determines what the AI will perform next, and the node directly above the actions says how many actions in each group are necessary to go through.
- A Sequence will try to do everything directly under in order from left to right
- A Select it’ll try to accomplish just one thing directly under it moving from left to right until it’s successful once.
- A Random is a Select or Sequence that goes through the things under it randomly instead of left to right. Can be Weighted to prefer some things more than others.

This AI sequence:
Will get bread out of the fridge.
It’ll then select a flavor.
Since BLT is first, it’ll get Bacon, then Lettuce, then Tomato. If it was able to get all these things successfully, it moves on to putting these flavors between two slices of bread.
If we failed getting Lettuce, it would be unsuccessful and move on to PBJ. It’ll randomly select either PB or Jelly, and then get the remaining one. It’ll then move to the putting these flavors between two slices of bread.

That’s a very broad description of the industry’s boilerplate 15year-old StateMachine/BehaviorTree AI in so far as office smalltalk can take me.

It has a sense of Priorities, it can Follow-up one action with another, it can create reactions that happen ‘Mostly-but-not-every-time’ . There is just so much stuff between an absolute like ‘IF Player x:THEN mob y’ and the pure chaos of Completely Random. It’s pretty robust, really!

Vox Hollow.2736:

Well, let’s hold on a second here.

A lot of this discussion basically boils down to our collective understanding of AI and our ideas for how to design around it’s restrictions. Since it’s so central to the discussion, let’s just take a minute to talk about AI.

                            Sandwhich Making Sequence
                                       /           |                        \
Get bread out of fridge     Select Flavor     Put flavor between two slices bread
                                                       /         \
                                BLT Sequence            PBJ Random Sequence
                           /            |          \                             |           \
     Get Bacon    Get Lettuce   Get Tomato      Get PB    Get Jelly

The AI goes through this performing the actions listed. They generally perform these actions from top to down and then left to right within each level. Whether an action was successful or unsuccessful determines what the AI will perform next, and the node directly above the actions says how many actions in each group are necessary to go through.
- A Sequence will try to do everything directly under in order from left to right
- A Select it’ll try to accomplish just one thing directly under it moving from left to right until it’s successful once.
- A Random is a Select or Sequence that goes through the things under it randomly instead of left to right. Can be Weighted to prefer some things more than others.

This AI sequence:
Will get bread out of the fridge.
It’ll then select a flavor.
Since BLT is first, it’ll get Bacon, then Lettuce, then Tomato. If it was able to get all these things successfully, it moves on to putting these flavors between two slices of bread.
If we failed getting Lettuce, it would be unsuccessful and move on to PBJ. It’ll randomly select either PB or Jelly, and then get the remaining one. It’ll then move to the putting these flavors between two slices of bread.

That’s a very broad description of the industry’s boilerplate 15year-old StateMachine/BehaviorTree AI in so far as office smalltalk can take me.

It has a sense of Priorities, it can Follow-up one action with another, it can create reactions that happen ‘Mostly-but-not-every-time’ . There is just so much stuff between an absolute like ‘IF Player x:THEN mob y’ and the pure chaos of Completely Random. It’s pretty robust, really!

the difference is i think they should have more if then situations between the player and the enemy. AKA player npc interation.

Others say the best thing is an overall prescripted plan that has a lot of details.

Boss is basically going to the exact same things until you get him to a new phase.

Too me, it seems they are saying
for bosses, its better to have the boss have set a set pattern that you have to properly respond to.

i say thats ok, for some encounters

But its also good to have encounters where what happens is partially based on the interaction of the player and the npc.

The more you have the boss react to the players the more you open it up to manipulation though.

I’d rather a larger set of skills from the enemy such that we have to be ready for more than simply allowing us to manipulate things to gain an advantage.

Basically I think that “better AI” would simply lead to gameplay that has us reacting less and forcing more. Or at least a very high chance of it.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Well, let’s hold on a second here.

A lot of this discussion basically boils down to our collective understanding of AI and our ideas for how to design around it’s restrictions. Since it’s so central to the discussion, let’s just take a minute to talk about AI.

                            Sandwhich Making Sequence
                                       /           |                        \
Get bread out of fridge     Select Flavor     Put flavor between two slices bread
                                                       /         \
                                BLT Sequence            PBJ Random Sequence
                           /            |          \                             |           \
     Get Bacon    Get Lettuce   Get Tomato      Get PB    Get Jelly

The AI goes through this performing the actions listed. They generally perform these actions from top to down and then left to right within each level. Whether an action was successful or unsuccessful determines what the AI will perform next, and the node directly above the actions says how many actions in each group are necessary to go through.
- A Sequence will try to do everything directly under in order from left to right
- A Select it’ll try to accomplish just one thing directly under it moving from left to right until it’s successful once.
- A Random is a Select or Sequence that goes through the things under it randomly instead of left to right. Can be Weighted to prefer some things more than others.

This AI sequence:
Will get bread out of the fridge.
It’ll then select a flavor.
Since BLT is first, it’ll get Bacon, then Lettuce, then Tomato. If it was able to get all these things successfully, it moves on to putting these flavors between two slices of bread.
If we failed getting Lettuce, it would be unsuccessful and move on to PBJ. It’ll randomly select either PB or Jelly, and then get the remaining one. It’ll then move to the putting these flavors between two slices of bread.

That’s a very broad description of the industry’s boilerplate 15year-old StateMachine/BehaviorTree AI in so far as office smalltalk can take me.

It has a sense of Priorities, it can Follow-up one action with another, it can create reactions that happen ‘Mostly-but-not-every-time’ . There is just so much stuff between an absolute like ‘IF Player x:THEN mob y’ and the pure chaos of Completely Random. It’s pretty robust, really!

Now I’m hungry… can you make me a sandwich? With turkey, mayo and some lettuce.
Plz?

ColinJohanson.2394:

Simply put: we haven’t announced it yet – when we’re ready to show everything about our plans for challenging content for HoT, we’ll announce it.

Though it isn’t the “challenging content” feature discussed in our announcement – I will add we want our open world content experience to be more challenging as well just in general. Though the AI was better in our CBT experience – we think we still have a lot of work to do to get our creatures and encounters even at the start of Verdant Brink up to where we want them to be. Our game has great combat, our creatures and encounters should challenge and require you to use that combat system.

More info “when it’s ready”.

From https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Where-is-promised-challenging-HOT-content/first

Colin is cold-pressed like sesame oil.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

They have yet to do basic stuff like revamp the way boon sharing/stacking is done so you can have encounters that split the group without nerfing them for not being stacked for field blasts.

They have yet to make many fields like ethereal and darkness actually worthwhile. Leap finishers are still fairly crappy, especially fire aura since the last thing you want to do as a berserker is get hit by mob 3-4k autoattacks multiple times just to get 1 stack of might each. Frost aura is still somewhat situational, 10% less damage taken is something made for bunker characters not berserker ones.

Lots of useless weapons still. Autoattacks in this game are not remotely balanced across classes. Things like mesmer scepter, staff, necro staff, ranger mainhand axe. Necro mainhand dagger is trash compared to warrior axe mainhand or thief dagger or ele staff or lightning whip, as is mesmer sword. Ranger greatsword autoattack is also crap, and mainhand sword is not that much to write home about while having silly inconveniences and built in delays to certain dodges like monarch’s leap.

Boon stripping as utility is lessened by the fact that mobs spam it even after the boon is stripped.

the difference is i think they should have more if then situations between the player and the enemy. AKA player npc interation.

Others say the best thing is an overall prescripted plan that has a lot of details.

And it’s fine to champion either of those stances, but, we’re talking about a system that layers upon itself almost helplessly.

Random, Scripted, Player does X mob does Y : that’s more like parts and pieces of the system in isolation than a whole complete AI. It’s almost harder to pursue any singular one these things as an ideal case, than it is to mix them. (and I don’t mean from encounter to encounter, I mean : all in the same beast in the same fight.)

Heck, my very basic example couldn’t even manage to be one thing purely.

@ Iris Ng
It’s nice to hear some word on this!
but, that oil reference went sailing over my head.

Vox speaks a lot of truth. Encounters are built on different elements. I’m not opposed at all to NPC reactions, I think they could add to thing. I’m just wary of unintended consequences, be it manipulation based on those reactions or simply rendering certain tools “useless.” In general I’d rather the enemy be playing offense rather than defense we can manipulate.

I’d say it has more to do with history. In the history of MMO, there are dozens of examples of excellent boss fights designed around “epic scale, complex scripted mechanics” that were amazing. To date, I can’t think of a single raid/dungeon boss that behaves like a player that would qualify as “amazing.”

Granted, just because something has never been done doesn’t mean no one should try it. But it does mean that it is more likely than not to end in failure.

NikeEU.7690:

I’d say it has more to do with history. In the history of MMO, there are dozens of examples of excellent boss fights designed around “epic scale, complex scripted mechanics” that were amazing. To date, I can’t think of a single raid/dungeon boss that behaves like a player that would qualify as “amazing.”

Granted, just because something has never been done doesn’t mean no one should try it. But it does mean that it is more likely than not to end in failure.

Ehh, have you ever taken a look at DCUO? (not really suggesting it at this point, just posing the question, though being completely free for the base game it’s a fun one to dabble in if bored).

It had a very interesting take on MMO’s in that while GW2 say took the Action RPG route DCUO combined a fighting game into the scenario. We had a RPS type counter system, you could block dramatically lowering damage, But, that could be broken by a Block-Breaker, and a block breaker could be countered by an Interrupt. If countered you’d get knocked down needing a stun break to get back up immediately.

They did a good job IMO putting this on some raid bosses. It was quite fun because if you were a good enough tank the healer was able to just sit back and DPS only needing to toss a heal now and then to counter a bit of uncounterable spike damage.

So while it was fun, it was also pretty comical that in the end good players had an easier time with that than the big monstered that played outside our RPS system.

Then EQ also had some “reaction based mechanics” in that certain enemies would enrage if you did something to them. Try to land a stun, they AE you, stuff like that. Not really playing like players but still that reaction people are talking about.

Revenant will have Staff, Shield, Sword MH and OH on top of what we already know. Some datamined skills: http://i.imgur.com/wP1UXvH.jpg

Source: https://np.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/37tunc/update_revenant_datamined_staff_skills_removed/

phys.7689:

he is saying that mobs moving away from your coordinated burst, is annoying and shouldnt happen because it makes players feel crappy.

Thats why you coordinate chills, cripple, inmovilization and even petrification.
That way aoes arent useless, but require more group skills.

I wouldn’t mind it if bosses had dodges or snare. As long as we could counter it in some way. like a skill that would drain their endurance, or the snare/dodge had a long windup that we could interrupt.

on the same token, it would be neat if bosses had a mechanic that would drain our endurance. Make it a long windup or give more classes skills like signet of agility so we could counter that too.

so basically any mechanic that requires you to react would be nice.

Something that would already help is if skills had a shorter duration (maybe also a shorter cast time) so that you are required to use them reactively.

For example, no reason to put up a Wall of Reflection when the boss launches a projectile attack when I can also use it at the start of the fight and it won’t run out by the end of it. Feedback is a better example of that, now think the same with Aegises, stability, etc.

Obviously not a perfect solution, but it might make gameplay for 1 or 2 professions more engaging

Tom Yzf.5872:

I wouldn’t mind it if bosses had dodges or snare. As long as we could counter it in some way. like a skill that would drain their endurance, or the snare/dodge had a long windup that we could interrupt.

on the same token, it would be neat if bosses had a mechanic that would drain our endurance. Make it a long windup or give more classes skills like signet of agility so we could counter that too.

so basically any mechanic that requires you to react would be nice.

No dodges PLEASE. When will people get that this is not fun?!

whoops, i didn’t get that “let others decide for me what is fun or not” memo. just ignore everything i said and carry on.

Cheezy.2039:

Something that would already help is if skills had a shorter duration (maybe also a shorter cast time) so that you are required to use them reactively.

For example, no reason to put up a Wall of Reflection when the boss launches a projectile attack when I can also use it at the start of the fight and it won’t run out by the end of it. Feedback is a better example of that, now think the same with Aegises, stability, etc.

Obviously not a perfect solution, but it might make gameplay for 1 or 2 professions more engaging

i agree with this. shorter duration with shorter cooldown skills will be tonnes more engaging

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Tom Yzf.5872:

I wouldn’t mind it if bosses had dodges or snare. As long as we could counter it in some way. like a skill that would drain their endurance, or the snare/dodge had a long windup that we could interrupt.

on the same token, it would be neat if bosses had a mechanic that would drain our endurance. Make it a long windup or give more classes skills like signet of agility so we could counter that too.

so basically any mechanic that requires you to react would be nice.

No dodges PLEASE. When will people get that this is not fun?!

Chain, criple, bluffing so the guy go to another aoe, stun, chill, etc -.- counter that.

Also, in Devil May Cry 3 in Dante Must die difficulty, Virgil boss fights were really fun and he dodges!!! (teleport kind dodge).