Guild Wars 2

I don’t believe disallowing player interactions is the way to go. Players choose how they wish to play themselves, and it’s not up to us to control them. They aren’t doing anything against the rules. In GW1, people sold Droknar Runs all the time, and it was a sport all of its own. It’s fine, really it is. What is more worrying, is people who scam those players that offer these runs, or seeing nothing but path-sellers in chat when I want to do a dungeon.

That said, I’m not a fan of it either. I feel that some dungeons, like Arah, are dominated by path sellers. I think the devs could do something about making some dungeons less unpleasant. This should not be misinterpreted as a cry for dumbing down the dungeons. I genuinely feel that Arah is a very unpleasant ride. I wish it was more fun to do.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I feel that some dungeons, like Arah, are dominated by path sellers.

And just like others I will assure you that it’s just a baseless feeling.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I genuinely feel that Arah is a very unpleasant ride. I wish it was more fun to do.

And for many of us it’s one of the most fun things to do in the game. Even if my GW2 gameplay nowadays is mostly casual WvWing and afking world bosses I still visit Arah once in a while.

TKiller.6829:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I feel that some dungeons, like Arah, are dominated by path sellers.

And just like others I will assure you that it’s just a baseless feeling.

It’s not a false statement. People just jump to wrong conclusions. There aren’t many people running it because it’s harder than most of the other dungeons, which makes it a perfect niche for sellers. But it’s not the other way around that they don’t run it much because of the sellers.

There are not many people running arah because the dungeon community is dying, so there are not many veterans around.

Just see the speedrun guilds how long they can survive in the game, and if you dumb down even more the last real endgame dungeon we still have then there will be nothing worth to be doing for the experienced players.

Just look at this forum, one year ago this was so full of new posts every week, its true that most of then were about “NERF TAFU” or “SPIDER QUEEN IS TOO HARD” but that also indicated that there were more people interested in dungeons, now even the more casual players know how to fight spider queen, there is nothing left and even the dungeon tournament thread is empty :/

Casmurro, I think I just said literally that I did not want the dungeon to be dumbed down. I said I want it to be more fun.

I want to buy paths. Why can’t I PHIW?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Casmurro, I think I just said literally that I did not want the dungeon to be dumbed down. I said I want it to be more fun.

I think this is a perfect example of where the struggle in communication lies between different groups of people. Arah isn’t fun for Mad Queen – but I have an absolute BLAST in there, it’s one of my most favorite things in the game!

Mad Queen, if Arah isn’t fun for you, why isn’kitten What would you do differently? Maybe we could all come up with some ideas for new, different dungeons that are varied enough to be fun for everyone.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I don’t believe disallowing player interactions is the way to go. Players choose how they wish to play themselves, and it’s not up to us to control them. They aren’t doing anything against the rules. In GW1, people sold Droknar Runs all the time, and it was a sport all of its own. It’s fine, really it is. What is more worrying, is people who scam those players that offer these runs, or seeing nothing but path-sellers in chat when I want to do a dungeon.

That said, I’m not a fan of it either. I feel that some dungeons, like Arah, are dominated by path sellers. I think the devs could do something about making some dungeons less unpleasant. This should not be misinterpreted as a cry for dumbing down the dungeons. I genuinely feel that Arah is a very unpleasant ride. I wish it was more fun to do.

Arah is simply a step up. Some see that as unpleasant but to me that’s what makes it fun.

I do think it’s fair for someone to call it unpleasant though, it’s simply an opinion. Those that find it unpleasant are those that are buying it or simply avoiding it. Those who love it are the ones selling it, or running it regularly.

Personally I’ve lost interest in much of the game, I’ve just been grinding WvW and just about the only thing I still do outside that is Arah because it’s still a lot of fun to me.

The only real endgame in GW2 is mountain goating. Everything else is just a heap of lies.

I post up simple lfg’s for arah frequently “p2” fills within a matter of seconds. Except when I start the party as a necro. Then that would take a few mins at most. I understand that general players are scared to create their own lfg, but don’t give negative feedback when you put zero effort into experiencing the content.

So many comments giving opinions without experience is frustrating to read. I hope anet is able to pick out the baseless comments before considering them as genuine feedback.

raethe.1903:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Casmurro, I think I just said literally that I did not want the dungeon to be dumbed down. I said I want it to be more fun.

Mad Queen, if Arah isn’t fun for you, why isn’kitten What would you do differently? Maybe we could all come up with some ideas for new, different dungeons that are varied enough to be fun for everyone.

Not Mad Queen, but for me it’s the skipping. I hate the skipping. So long, so much cc, takes forever to get a “perfect run” where the entire team makes it to the boss… and then if you wipe you have to do it all again. And if you kill the boss, it’s on to the next skip. Yay. Yeah, I’m a regular buyer. I’ve done every path at least once the right way, that’s good enough for me.

Tom is correct, there are many people running Arah and it’s not hard to find a group. I see lots of groups while browsing for paths to buy, and they fill quickly. Granted most of them are “exp only melee lupi 7k ap” but there are enough that are just the path number. I don’t buy because I can’t find a group. There are a lot of people doing the dungeon, not just sellers. At least in EU.

I wouldn’t petition to have it changed, obviously many people like it as is. I’ve had fun in Arah before, some nice guild runs. Don’t like it, leave it alone. Or buy. You can get skins/tokens from pvp anyway, so it’s not like you are claiming something no one could get if they didn’t personally run the dungeon and there were no path sellers.

Purple Miku.7032:

Just died of laughter listening to my friend use a british accent trying to read this outloud on TS. Jesus christ lmfao. He was so confused trying to decipher this.

And I died of laughter on the text-to-speech, the spiritless tone really destroys monologues. Text-to-speech button at bottom of box

Gaile Gray.6029:

We’re all welcome to play in different ways. The OP has has an opinion, and s/he shared it here, which is just fine. If you disagree, that’s just fine too, but please do so respectfully, without insults or arguments. If you have a point to make, you can make it without resorting to rudeness, right?

Thanks.

This is a wierd statement I have seen alot lately from Anet devs and others: “We’re all welcome to play in different ways”, sometimes worded slightly differently with the same sentiment. But it’s certainly a wierd statement. It says to me I can play the game however I want. Sounds good right? So if I want to go into sPvP with a perma-evasion hack I’m welcome to do so. Or if I want to go into WvW and siege troll commanders and perma supply drain keeps I am welcome to do so. Or if I want to go into PvE and exploit a bugged event and farm as much linen scrap as I want I am welcome to do so.

OFC its obvious right. The things I listed above are against some rules. Probably the TOS. But they may not be (Im not entirely sure tbh). I mean I have farmed coiled watch for a few hours straight by failing the even with some 100 other players. So for those who say your not playing the game the way it was intended, your right. So it looks pretty clear to me that the game was intentionally design to provide players with the ability to sell dungeon paths. It just happened to be the case that you could.

Just to point out. I am not really opposed to dungeon selling. I myself payed for some Arah paths to complete my achievements after being pug broken a few times. But if this is why dungeon paths selling is so successful, like coiled watch or the linen scrap farming event or the giant event in Orr, shouldnt it be reworked just like these event have been or will be?

nirvana.8245:

Gaile Gray.6029:

We’re all welcome to play in different ways. The OP has has an opinion, and s/he shared it here, which is just fine. If you disagree, that’s just fine too, but please do so respectfully, without insults or arguments. If you have a point to make, you can make it without resorting to rudeness, right?

Thanks.

This is a wierd statement I have seen alot lately from Anet devs and others: “We’re all welcome to play in different ways”, sometimes worded slightly differently with the same sentiment. But it’s certainly a wierd statement. It says to me I can play the game however I want. Sounds good right? So if I want to go into sPvP with a perma-evasion hack I’m welcome to do so. Or if I want to go into WvW and siege troll commanders and perma supply drain keeps I am welcome to do so. Or if I want to go into PvE and exploit a bugged event and farm as much linen scrap as I want I am welcome to do so.

OFC its obvious right. The things I listed above are against some rules. Probably the TOS. But they may not be (Im not entirely sure tbh). I mean I have farmed coiled watch for a few hours straight by failing the even with some 100 other players. So for those who say your not playing the game the way it was intended, your right. So it looks pretty clear to me that the game was intentionally design to provide players with the ability to sell dungeon paths. It just happened to be the case that you could.

Just to point out. I am not really opposed to dungeon selling. I myself payed for some Arah paths to complete my achievements after being pug broken a few times. But if this is why dungeon paths selling is so successful, like coiled watch or the linen scrap farming event or the giant event in Orr, shouldnt it be reworked just like these event have been or will be?

Those events were changed because people were exploiting the event mechanics by allowing them to spawn endless amounts of adds that you killed for loot and generated wealth out of thin air. Also because they are open world group events they created significantly more money than people running dungeons.

You used to be able to make roughly 15-20g per hour from farm events with average luck. Now multiply that by about 30 people doing the event and then multiply that by how money servers were doing it at the same time. Compared to a good dungeon runner soloing Arah p2 in about 30 minutes and then selling it max 10g per slot. In this case that 10g was already generated by other means and just exchanging hands without generating more raw gold to the economy.

im a seller. here is what i think.

Pros.
Global :

Provide a service to people that dont have time to complete the dungeon and fail over and over again.

Personal:
rewarded by gaining abit more gold.

Cons.

Global:
Scammers that exploit the buyers trust, taking gold and kick.

Personal:
Abused by trolls. kicked, path stealing, false accusation as scammers by scammers. aka defamation.

the dungeon itself is there for everyone. you can do it, i can do it everyone can do it. if you are capable of soloing it, do it. nobody is preventing you from doing it other than yourself

people also solo CM and TA and for even crazier peeps, they solo fractal 50.

sellers invest time, for others convenience. they learn, they try, they practice. fail many times to achieve success.

there are alot of people doing arah. everytime i post an lfg for arah p3, it fills quick.

back to the basics, i believe anet recently sent out an email to peeps about “artful dodging” and active defense skills. im not sure how to elaborate anymore but maybe you want to read the email again :P

if you dont believe people can solo arah, please try using youtube or google. they are your friends.

regarding the seller only issue, sellers list the lfg for hours, ive personally listed an arah p4 recently for 3 hours. hence why you see sellers lfg often. ive been monitoring the lfg daily because of sales for the past 10 months. not kidding yes 10 months.

alot of people doing arah have their own dungeon crew, sometimes they only run with guildies and friends, even if its a duo or trio or even solo.

ive got so frustrated recently since my old dungeon crew are gone to AA and other games, so i have to pug.

here are the main issues that ive encountered.

1, longbow camp warriors and rangers. hit like a baby, die like a fly.
2, staff guardians and eles that doesnt know what cc is.
3, necros and thiefs that makes people blast area blind.

much more issues can be added to list. when you try to explain why not, reply is always unpleasant.

its not that nobody is doing it, but people are picking on who to do it with. saves the headache.

have you done a dungeon with full group of nomad players? its worse than that ele vid auto attack xD honestly even a masterwork zerker can do much better with better knowledge of the game.

please dont shoot me, im only here and saw this post because i wanted to post something about SE p1. that bloody commander taiyi dude disappears when tazza dies. no fair i want my champ bag :<

raethe.1903:

Mad Queen, if Arah isn’t fun for you, why is it not? What would you do differently? Maybe we could all come up with some ideas for new, different dungeons that are varied enough to be fun for everyone.

There’s quite a few things I don’t like about it. But I should say in advance that on the whole I dislike the dungeon design in GW2 overall. But Arah to me, seems to combine the worst of the worst.

• There’s dozens of enemies that deal a lot of damage, and take really long to kill, yet drop nothing useful. It’s not like UW or FoW in GW1, where there was always a reasonable chance that almost any of the enemies would drop an Obsidian Shard or Glob of Ectoplasm. There’s nothing to look forward to with killing them, so people skip as much as possible. I hate skipping.

• It’s linear. It’s like one long hallway, where every single enemy is bothersome to fight. There’s no joy in fighting the enemies, so people skip them. But worse yet, there are no alternate paths. That is not a dungeon, it’s a corridor.

• The gimmicks. There are a lot of gimmicks in this dungeon, several of which that feel like an armor repair grind, or really tedious. I especially hate the part with the golems. I’ve seen so many groups just throw down their keyboards and call it quits. Not because it was too hard, but because it was so annoying and unpleasant.

• The boss fights. Except for Lupi, I don’t think I like any of the boss fights in this dungeon. Lupi seems the only one with a slightly competent design. All the others seem sloppy, and not very fun to fight.

• It doesn’t feel like an adventure. Nothing to explore, visually bland, without any real noteworthy landmarks. What a boring corridor, with a dull art design.

• Poor rewards at the end. Yay, I got a few tokens. Is that what I did all this unpleasantness for? Is there any reason I’d want to do anything but the fastest, easiest path to get my tokens?

• I really miss incentive to do the other paths. Right now I feel like the other paths are just a guaranteed slog, where I’m pushing myself to finish it, despite not enjoying a single second of it.

• It takes very long. This wouldn’t usually be a problem if the dungeon was fun. Heck, the Underworld in GW1 used to take hours, but that was perfectly fine, because it was non-linear and fun. And as a matter of fact, my guild and I recently went back to GW1 to play through the Underworld again. It was extremely unfair in it’s quest design, and there were plenty of horrible design mistakes throughout that dungeon, but it was still a heck of a lot more fun than Arah. And that’s saying something.

So what would I do differently? Apart from Lupicus, I’d redesign the whole dungeon. I’d do away with the paths, and just open it up to exploring. I’d do so much different, it would be a design doc of it’s own, which is a bit too much to post in here (plus, I normally get paid for that).

sloppy boss? have you tried soloing bosses like p3 magecrusher? or path 4 lyssa? they are much more challenging than lupi tbh imo.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

stuff

Tbh by that logic I don’t see why do you visit dungeons in GW2 at all, if you do even.

A lot of personal preferences. Doesn’t lead to a healthy discussion about a present part of content, future maybe, but not already existing.

TKiller.6829:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

stuff

Tbh by that logic I don’t see why do you visit dungeons in GW2 at all, if you do even.

I don’t. I’ve seen all the dungeons, and now know that I don’t like playing through any of them. Frankly, I’d take a GW1 dungeon, or a Dungeon & Dragons Online dungeon over any of the GW2 dungeons any day.

TKiller.6829:

A lot of personal preferences. Doesn’t lead to a healthy discussion about a present part of content, future maybe, but not already existing.

Somebody asked me for my personal preferences, so I answered.

Boyd.5438:

sloppy boss? have you tried soloing bosses like p3 magecrusher? or path 4 lyssa? they are much more challenging than lupi tbh imo.

Nobody said anything about challenge. I said competently designed. As in, a good boss fight. One that is pure skill, and fun to do, with different stages and different moves.

Skipping is very much a part of Arah, I’m quite sure it’s intended. The trash there is much more difficult than most of the bosses and truly a good part of the challenge of the dungeon as a whole.

The only thing I can kinda agree with you Malafide is that Arah is a bit visually unpleasant. Not so much that I think it’s bad, as much as it’s sad that what was supposed to be this big grand amazing city is now just a pretty typical city of ruins. But, everything else, naw I’d have to disagree, but hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

As far as exploration goes though I think Arah has more of it than most dungeons. Plenty of mountain goating, or even getting to different areas of the map from different paths just for the fun of it.

Jerus.4350:

The only thing I can kinda agree with you Malafide is that Arah is a bit visually unpleasant. Not so much that I think it’s bad, as much as it’s sad that what was supposed to be this big grand amazing city is now just a pretty typical city of ruins. But, everything else, naw I’d have to disagree, but hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

It could have been something similar to Anor Londo in Dark Souls. It could have been this grand mystical city, that really has you in awe of the visuals. They could have done so much with it. There could have been multi-story buildings, hidden passages, doors, secret areas, portcullises, jumping sections, and bridges…. anything really. But it seems like they just went for a big brown floor mesh, and dropped some walls of stone into it. And I’m sure it was a lot of work, but from a level design point of view, it’s so unimaginative. It’s just a few corridors, which leads to some open space, and then more corridors. That is not a dungeon.

A dungeon is a maze. It has gateways, tunnels, intersections, bridges, overpasses, pits, traps, levers, staircases, elevators, rooms etc. The only thing Arah has is tunnels… oh boy, do they have tunnels. But why not actual buildings? Why not intersections? From a level design perspective it really is the bottom of the barrel.

i see what you mean, but making them have different skills and random like a player is pretty much asking for more challenge. am i correct?

reading the previous posts, i see

1, mobs are tough and difficult to kill but gives crappy reward.
2, bosses are trash because they are linear. request variables.
3, dungeon visually unplesant.

please if i missed something, add it in?

as i see it, i can agree that mobs are too tanky and do too much damage.

but bosses, being a variable, is also decent. but do you think people would accept it well? im all in for bosses with spvp style skills, they can change skillsets anytime anyday for the fight.

btw, yea if u mean about the dungeon structure, i like the open dungeon idea. go in, explore the map yourself, no paths required to be chosen, just go in and kill stuff and progress. you have objectives to be done and rewards for completing it. much more fun to explore. variables too, you can change the bosses frequently and encounters randomly.

Ever wandered in arah p4? It’s far from the linear tunnel you’re speaking of. Especially after Simin/ between melandru and lyssa.

^I think he was soloing Arah p4

Boyd.5438:

1, mobs are tough and difficult to kill but gives crappy reward.
2, bosses are trash because they are linear. request variables.
3, dungeon visually unpleasant.

please if i missed something, add it in?

My biggest gripe with dungeons is simply their lay out. It’s not just that they aren’t visually pleasing. It’s that they lack the things that make a dungeon a dungeon. Almost all of the dungeons are linear corridors. Very few have overpasses, climbing sections, gateways, levers, buildings, or intersections, or even multiple floors.

Take any dungeon from Demon’s Souls or Dark Souls, or any dungeon from DnD Online for that matter, and look at the creativity of the level designers. You have massive sprawling underground mazes, with countless staircases, rooms, alternate paths, secret doors, platforming sections, devious traps, underwater sections, puzzles, multiple floors, etc. This is what a dungeon should be like. Not a long system of linear tunnels that connect large open spaces filled with monsters. That is boring. It is uninspired level design.

Attached below is a map of the Boletarian Palace. The very first level in Demons Souls. The player starts at the large staircase at the bottom of the map, and then makes his way up towards the large closed portcullis. The towers left and right are optional paths, and can be unlocked to offer an easy shortcut later on. But one of them contains a lever to raise the gate, the other is a handy shortcut. As you can see, it is quite a complicated lay out. There are various floors above other floors, and many optional routes, and dead ends with bonus treasures.

Mad Queen’s ideal MMO:

-single player RPG map layouts. Clearly practical.
-Boss fights are as slow and boring as ____ Souls.
-Every boss mechanic is telegraphed with an insanely slow very visible wind-up with a red dodge indicator over his head that flashes when you should dodge AND an audible “I AM NOW LAUNCHING MY MELEE ATTACK DODGE IN 3 SECONDS” hint.

Sounds great!

hybrid.5027:

Mad Queen’s ideal MMO:

-single player RPG map layouts. Clearly practical.
-Boss fights are as slow and boring as ____ Souls.
-Every boss mechanic is telegraphed with an insanely slow very visible wind-up with a red dodge indicator over his head that flashes when you should dodge AND an audible “I AM NOW LAUNCHING MY MELEE ATTACK DODGE IN 3 SECONDS” hint.

Sounds great!

omg, so I’m not the only who think that of D*** S****

One thing I always liked about GW2 was the fast paced combat, which is why I never could into *ark *ouls

hybrid.5027:

Mad Queen’s ideal MMO:

-single player RPG map layouts. Clearly practical.

Way to go in oversimplifying my entire point. Would you mind addressing the fact that almost all of GW2’s dungeons seem to lack the very architectural dungeon-aspects that I listed? Because that was kind of the real point I was making, not that everything should be like Demons Souls.

Now lets take an example from another MMO. Dungeons and Dragons Online. This is the map called The Pit. Notice a slight increase in level design complexity perhaps? Look at all the things that need to be activated. There’s actual stuff to do in here, and not just a bunch of corridors with monsters. There are puzzles, traps and objectives.

And this is but one example. Nearly every minor quest in DDO has better dungeon design than any of the dungeons in GW2.

Now here is Honor of the Waves. A few corridors, few rooms, few monsters. There’s a few minor ‘traps’, but nothing that you need to deactivate. There are no switches that you have to activate, no puzzles. There’s not really any platforming to speak of. Heck, there are hardly even intersections or multiple floors. Sure the level goes up and down a bit, and there is an underwater section. But apart from that, it’s just filled with monsters and linear corridors. Any doors that you need to open, are done so by killing a monster. There are no pressure plates, or anything creative what so ever. The only thing interesting, if a bit tedious, are the boss that runs into pillars and is really easy, and the boss that has the totems and takes way too long to kill.

Now lets look at another MMO that did it well, Guild Wars 1!

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sorrow%27s_Furnace

Sorrow’s Furnace is a multi floor dungeon with dozens of alternate routes to take. It has several quests that you have to complete to face the final boss:

Noble Intentions
Noble Intentions Plan B
Kilroy Stonekin
The Forge Heart
Summit Slaves
Unruly Slaves
Wrenches in the Gears
Unspeakable, Unknowable
Fire in the Hole
Cold One
To Sorrow’s Furnace

And of course The Final Assault

It also has 14 mini bosses. Various puzzle mechanics needed to activate bridges, or open gateways. It has crushers that can crush both players and enemies. And a big boss battle at the end with unique mechanics.

Oh, and it looks great too! Better than Sorrow’s Embrace, that’s for sure.

THIS is how you design a dungeon. THIS is how Anet used to design dungeons. What happened? They got sloppy, that’s what. They were in a rush to meet GW2’s deadline, and they rushed the dungeons.

Yes, I agree. Guild Wars 2 needs more floor switches to hit and puzzles in the dungeons. Those are very popular things.

in b4 people get lost in current dungeons what do you think will happen with that ?
they can barely handle pressing 1 and 2. Now you want them to traverse that?

DonQuack.9025:

in b4 people get lost in current dungeons what do you think will happen with that ?
they can barely handle pressing 1 and 2. Now you want them to traverse that?

A dungeon is supposed to be kind of a maze, and mazes are intended to get lost in. And sure, people did occasionally get lost in Sorrow’s Furnace. That’s what made it exciting.

I dont think you understand. dungeons are too hard for “majority”. you suggest to make “harder”

Also as I said “people already get lost in current dungeons”

I completely agree with the point Mad Queen Malafide is making that a lot of people are trolling him/her over.

Dungeon designs are too basic. I would love more traps. CoF P1, while it may be as trivial as tying one’s shoes, has a trap that seems perfectly reasonable to have in dungeons… those boulders.

What would be bad about having to walk across a chasm on a narrow pole, or having to carefully side-step along the edge of a wall to get past a pit of lava etc?

Or perhaps a segment in a corridor is littered with buttons that once stepped on, arrows/javelins fly out of the wall.

More complex layouts would always be more interesting too, especially if for example say you hit a fork that breaks off into 3 directions. All 3 directions would lead you to the same place, but they would be different; the left path would be the overall safest but longest, the middle would be the shortest but most dangerous, and the third would be a healthy medium between the two or something like that.

I also think it’d be cool to have certain parts of dungeons be locked off with a gate/door that requires a key which would be obtained somewhere else in the dungeon… which kind of falls under the same category as mentioned above, the layout being too simple/linear.

Sorry to those of you that rage whenever things like this are suggested but I’m not advocating stupid ooze puzzles that are sluggish party-dependent timegates. I just think that this person has a really good point about dungeons being too simplistic in design.

I think that the thread has gone off track – Mad Queen, you have some … interesting… ideas about what you think dungeons should be. I can’t say that I agree with you, but thank you for responding to my question.

The whole point leads back to why do people think that selling dungeon paths is so horrible? If someone doesn’t have the time or inclination to complete a path, what is so wrong with them paying to finish it? What if tomorrow Anet decides to put in a process that you talk to an NPC and trade gold/gems for dungeon tokens (sort of like buying influence for your guild now).

If you don’t like dungeon selling because it’s not something you can do, go learn how to solo or duo yourself and do the same things. If you don’t like it because you don’t want to pay for dungeons, make your own LFG, no one is forcing you to do anything! If you don’t like it because it offends your moral sensibilities… well, get over it. “Everyone gets to play how they want to play.”

Mad Queen, thanks again for answering my question. Maybe you should write up some suggestions for the specific dungeons that addresses what you’d like?

I have no problems with the suggestions. I just dont think they are… (realistic?) for the gw2 community.

Id also prefer my dungeons a bit more along the lines of Dungeons of Dredmore or gw1 where when all get downed you get kicked out but then I ask myself .. actually meh.

Nothing would be bad about those suggestions Miku. Until the people who arent “us” get to it.

actually isnt there something like that ingame already? its has to do with torches and lighting up the dark and hopping around ledges avoiding mobs.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And this is but one example. Nearly every minor quest in DDO has better dungeon design than any of the dungeons in GW2.

Then why arent the hordes flocking to DDO. Why am I not downloading as I type? Why cant I find anything online praising DDO’s dungeon design?

as for the lever stuff. As a heavy sp-rpg player. Nothing is more tedious than hunting for a bloody lever to open a door.

Purple Miku.7032:

I completely agree with the point Mad Queen Malafide is making that a lot of people are trolling him/her over.

Dungeon designs are too basic.

Hear, hear! And props to Mad, for mentioning DDO… I played that game, and a lot of the Dungeons were truly AMAZING!

I’d sell my soul for a game with GW2’s combat, and Dungeons like DDO/other games.

DonQuack.9025:

Then why arent the hordes flocking to DDO. Why am I not downloading as I type? Why cant I find anything online praising DDO’s dungeon design?

DDO is roughly 8.5 years old, and has besides that, other problems slowly killing the game. The population is quite low right now, quite VERY low. I think at this point, barely anyone knows the game even exists.

The game suffers from various forms of Pay to Skip, endless grind for very little gain, utterly pointless and woefully imbalanced PvP, and massive lag on a constant basis. Also, it’s not really “Free to Play”, even though they advertise it as that… Well, ok, it is technically “Free to Play”… But very unreasonable, if you want to play for free.

Some Classes have been so terribly, awfully neglected for YEARS. If you think Necro is useless in GW2 PvE, you haven’t seen DDOs Barbarian.

DonQuack.9025:

I have no problems with the suggestions. I just dont think they are… (realistic?) for the gw2 community.

Id also prefer my dungeons a bit more along the lines of Dungeons of Dredmore or gw1 where when all get downed you get kicked out but then I ask myself .. actually meh.

Nothing would be bad about those suggestions Miku. Until the people who arent “us” get to it.

actually isnt there something like that ingame already? its has to do with torches and lighting up the dark and hopping around ledges avoiding mobs.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And this is but one example. Nearly every minor quest in DDO has better dungeon design than any of the dungeons in GW2.

Then why arent the hordes flocking to DDO. Why am I not downloading as I type? Why cant I find anything online praising DDO’s dungeon design?

as for the lever stuff. As a heavy sp-rpg player. Nothing is more tedious than hunting for a bloody lever to open a door.

THere is dungeon design, then overall gameplay. GW2 has great gameplay but I do agree it’s dungeons are quite linear and could use some more exploration. I do like the goating you can do in arah and what not, but it could use improving.

I remember all the way back in ‘99 and EQ’s dungeon design, even it surpassed GW2, but I think the shift in design was done on purpose as others have highlighted. So many players get lost. While I loved those dungeons I probably spent more time guiding people through it than anything else in there. That was fun sometimes but it sure did emphasize how bad some people are with directions

GW2 could do with some dead ends, more intersections, and better use of the vertical space. Again, I like Arah because it has some of this, but not nearly as much as it could.

I still like the dungeons but yeah, they could be more complex.

If anything they should add more jumping puzzle-esque challenges into the dungeons as those puzzles are relatively atmospheric.

Has the traps people want- the running across narrow ledges etc. There is another one in a norn area. I happened across it one day running around.

I dislike the use of those words better, surpassed. its different and in a way that one may or may not like. I would love to say arma is better in everyway to cod/bf/cs but its not. Its simply different. In my eyes saying its better means that if they transplant the whole dungeon to gw2 it will become the most popular dungeon and I find that hard to believe.

I agree, it’s an opinion, but I would bet that if I took you through some of the EQ dungeons you’d be back here agreeing that the overall design of the dungeon itself (not necessarily the enemies or combat or other game elements) is better

DonQuack.9025:

If anything they should add more jumping puzzle-esque challenges into the dungeons as those puzzles are relatively atmospheric.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbWQZy7jisw

Has the traps people want- the running across narrow ledges etc. There is another one in a norn area. I happened across it one day running around.

I dislike the use of those words better, surpassed. its different and in a way that one may or may not like. I would love to say arma is better in everyway to cod/bf/cs but its not. Its simply different. In my eyes saying its better means that if they transplant the whole dungeon to gw2 it will become the most popular dungeon and I find that hard to believe.

I remember the first time I went through that! It was THE most fun I ever had!

I don’t think the entire game should be like that, but it’s such a breath of fresh air from the “Point-A to Point-B Hack n’ Slash”.

And I totally agree with your last statement there. Sometimes, I really enjoy getting in to the “Point-A to Point-B Hack n’ Slash”… other times, not so much.

Diversity…

Uh oh, now I’m getting too deep into the off-topic discussion. I’ll stop here.

Sorry if I dragged the thread off topic regarding dungeon design. But I’m glad to find some people in agreement about the simplicity of GW2’s dungeons. This is something I tend to be quite passionate about, since it is kind of my job.

raethe.1903:

Mad Queen, thanks again for answering my question. Maybe you should write up some suggestions for the specific dungeons that addresses what you’d like?

That would probably derail the discussion even further (and probably attract plenty of troll comments as well). I think I pretty much detailed what is missing from current dungeons already. If I went into any more detail, it would become a design document, and I’d have to draw up whole new designs for the dungeons. That seems like a bit too much work just to make a point.

Purple Miku, those are some great ideas, and exactly what I would start with for a GW2 dungeon. It’s simple, it’s basic, it’s within reason, and it’s already ten times more entertaining than what we got in dungeons now.

You guys should go run aetherpath with each other every day.

Turamarth.3248:

1. Make your own group.
2. Don’t make any assumptions about the abilities of other players. While there are probably sellers who kick others I would say that the majority of them can solo or duo a path without problems.
3. Do you know why you see only lfgs from sellers? Their groups takes the longest to fill.
When I was selling CM I had to wait about 15 minutes to get a full group. Every normal lfg I saw was full after about 5 minutes.

^ This person has some strong logic – listen to them.

this is my only complaint about selling dungeons— Dont kick the 3 other people who worked hard to get the end of the dungeon with you. I’ve wasted countless hours in Arah with no reward because two people decided they wanted to be greedy. They kick the entire group so they can sell the path. this needs to stop. Impose a rule so that you have to be in the group for at least two bosses before you can get credit for the completion.

Herpdehderp.9056:

this is my only complaint about selling dungeons— Dont kick the 3 other people who worked hard to get the end of the dungeon with you. I’ve wasted countless hours in Arah with no reward because two people decided they wanted to be greedy. They kick the entire group so they can sell the path. this needs to stop. Impose a rule so that you have to be in the group for at least two bosses before you can get credit for the completion.

If this happens to you, report them and move on. I’m willing to bet it hasn’t though, because the vast majority of sellers have actually solo’d/duo’d everything in the instance (minus tar for p1).

I dont really mind if people are selling paths. You don’t have to join them and if you wanna do them normally you can just fine with other groups. I think there should be some sort of better exchange system for it instead of sending gold by mail though, such as “do you agree to this trade?” type thing. People would often run from Ascolon to LA in GW1. I don’t really see a problem. You have the option of which way you want to do it. Similar to power-leveling.

In GW1 my favorite class was the necromancer