Guild Wars 2

Ok so I love playing raids and have from the beginning.

So this is what has happened twice now where a commander (and this in Not new commanders) advertises on LFG and started asking people to join the squad and then after a while when they have a decent sized squad they started kicking Revenants and Necros from the squad. I PM them to ask what’s going on and the one response I go was you are a Revenant and the other one did not bother to respond.

That is messed up!

Some people have poor communication skills, so they aren’t able to phrase their LFG clearly enough that others know the requirements. Commanders are well within their rights to kick people they feel aren’t running the builds needed to ensure success, even if you & I know that it’s short-sighted (and factually invalid) to assume that random revenants & necros will contribute less than random eles or teefs.

In other word, you should pity those who value build over personal skill.

Just gear a meta class and play it instead. Chrono, druid, and warrior have always been meta for every raid fight and will easily get you a spot unless the group already has enough of each. Yes anet is still bad at class balance. Though to be fair rev and necro aren’t behind the top DPS classes by a huge amount anymore.

wasn’t there an equal thread about commanders kicking thieves and rangers when the squads were full. Wonder which two classes are next. Are any classes welcome in WvW squads?

Just because it’s meme doesn’t make it any less true.

Wintermute.5408:

Just because it’s meme doesn’t make it any less true.

no, bu writing in sarcasm on the internet often leaves it’s function lost

Wintermute.5408:

Just because it’s meme doesn’t make it any less true.

Your right. It is unacceptable that anet continues to be so slow at balancing their game. Especially considering both of these classes were perfectly acceptable a year ago, before anet purposefully nerfed them out of existence.

just find a static team and prove your dps, I’m clearing every raid boss on reaper, of course some bosses are meh and some are amazing for my perfomance, but all of the times im within top or reasonable spectrum. if you’re playing necro correctly, you will get very competitive with crangers in your team.

worst bosses for necro are:
VG – you cant easily epi the seekers when they are pushed back immediately so you’re stuck with Suffer or Wurm (but minions die on VG so i prefer suffer instead of 2nd minion), also other classes will outdps you easily here.
Sloth – clears conditions, you have to be careful with epi, it has big hitbox so u get outdpsed by eles
KC – if you switch to power with impact sigils and generally minmax, you will do similar dps to guard due to bursty nature of power reaper and KC being all about burst. don’t go condi.

best performance i gain on:
Sabetha – very high epi uptime and easy to manipulate ice fields. can easily get top1 dps if you’re not doing cannons
Matthias – suffer is life. you can transfer condis back with it and manipulating ice fields is easy here. minions die if you get sacrificed, resummon when shield is up.
Xera – high epi uptime and easy ice fields.
Cairn – only boss where you can safely spawn wurm and dont worry about it getting killed. easy to work with ice fields.
Deimos – epi play is on top of the game here
MO – you wont get top dps here and ice fields are hard to work with, but your epi will be very useful to clear adds.

edit: ok this is a joke thread, i dont care, my advice here is honest

My point is, why do you assume that Anet working on balance has the goal of making all classes ‘equal’ for play? There is lots of evidence to suggest that’s not the case, not just in GW2 but lots of other MMO’s as well.

I think that’s a terrible assumption to have. Why does anyone even have the impression that balance means making classes equally desireable for meta, especially when meta is a player-implemented idea and no one that Anet acknowledges as any kind of measure of class performance? That makes no sense, in ANY game.

Obtena.7952:

My point is, why do you assume that Anet working on balance has the goal of making all classes ‘equal’ for play? There is lots of evidence to suggest that’s not the case, not just in GW2 but lots of other MMO’s as well.

I think that’s a terrible assumption to have. Why does anyone even have the impression that balance means making classes equally desireable for meta, especially when meta is a player-implemented idea and no one that Anet acknowledges as any kind of measure of class performance? That makes no sense, in ANY game.

Meta is dictated by devs actually. Players have no way of changing spells/traits etc. And there is always best/optimal build based on what is available.

I did half a dungeon run the other night just to be kicked at the final boss because I was a necro. It was freaking CoF.

Cynz.9437:

Obtena.7952:

My point is, why do you assume that Anet working on balance has the goal of making all classes ‘equal’ for play? There is lots of evidence to suggest that’s not the case, not just in GW2 but lots of other MMO’s as well.

I think that’s a terrible assumption to have. Why does anyone even have the impression that balance means making classes equally desireable for meta, especially when meta is a player-implemented idea and no one that Anet acknowledges as any kind of measure of class performance? That makes no sense, in ANY game.

Meta is dictated by devs actually. Players have no way of changing spells/traits etc. And there is always best/optimal build based on what is available.

Meta is simply a consequence of game mechanics; it has nothing to do with how Anet decides to balance classes; that much should be obvious to anyone who is paying any amount of attention. OT be more clear, you speak like meta is a target when really, it’s just the result.

I mean, if that is the case that Anet balances according to meta, it’s certainly in direct opposition to most of the game changes I’ve seen and experienced. The best part is when people deny it, but they are seeing and experiencing the same game changes I am … I guess it’s more fun to argue on the forum than it is to simply admit that meta isn’t a measure of class balance for the devs. in fact, In most games I’ve played, that’s what is happening.

Obtena.7952:

My point is, why do you assume that Anet working on balance has the goal of making all classes ‘equal’ for play? There is lots of evidence to suggest that’s not the case

The way I see it, we both have valid explanations. You believe Anet is competent but purposefully creates such disparaging imbalance that revs are kicked from raids. I believe Anet is incompetent, but does not purposefully do that. Both seem plausible to me.

How do you pick? Obviously it depends on how convincing the evidence is, which is subjective. For example, I see Anet add might to phantasms and I conclude incompetence. Perhaps you conclude that Anet is purposefully faking incompetence so they can claim they are trying, while simultaneously making sure power dps mesmer is bad.

Meta is simply a consequence of game mechanics; it has nothing to do with how Anet decides to balance classes; that much should be obvious to anyone who is paying any amount of attention. OT be more clear, you speak like meta is a target when really, it’s just the result.

This seems wrong. Condi thief is meta because it hits higher dps than power rev/condi necro/power ele etc. Mechanics play a role, such as ads absorbing your venoms, but highest single target dps is pretty universally going to be meta.

Class balance plays a large role in shaping the meta. Buff ele so that it can hit 100k dps. Guess what happens? Warrior leaves the meta.

I pick that way because that’s not just Anet, it’s every MMO I’ve ever played. There is no effort to make every class ‘equivalent’ to ensure they are all meta.

Your theif example illustrates what I said perfectly. Condi was buffed on thief, as a consequence, it became meta … do you honestly think Anet sat around a table and decided that condi theif should become meta over necro, etc ,… ? That makes no sense.

Even barring all that … if they are or aren’t attempting to balance to meta, obviously it doesn’t happen, so people using that as a measure of performance are just dreaming.

Obtena.7952:

I pick that way because that’s not just Anet, it’s every MMO I’ve ever played. There is no effort to make every class ‘equivalent’ to ensure they are all meta.

Your thief example illustrates what I said perfectly. Condi was buffed on thief, as a consequence, it became meta … do you honestly think Anet sat around a table and decided that condi theif should become meta over necro, etc ,… ? That makes no sense.

Even barring all that … if they are or aren’t attempting to balance to meta, obviously it doesn’t happen, so people using that as a measure of performance are just dreaming.

I’m not really interested in what other mmos do, and I don’t really believe anet is either. Lets judge gw2 on its own merits.

No, I think a few developers who are overworked quickly got together a week or 2 before the balance patch, concluded condi thief was under powered, and buffed it.

I believe they drew this conclusion incorrectly. Every update seems to be based off of data that is 3+ months old. A friend of my recently came up with a reason for this, and I believe it is correct. Anet analyzes data for typical raid groups, and the majority of groups are pugs, and pugs take months to update to the meta that the well known guilds discover quickly.

The trends, such as condi thief being meta, do not show up in raid group statistics until months later because of how long it takes the community as a whole to update.

I believe Anet’s decisions stem from inaccurate information, and I believe they could achieve much better balance if they were willing to work with the speed clear guilds towards this goal. I also believe they are hesitant to involve players in these decisions.

You may not care, but this isn’t about you caring; it’s about how MMO devs behave and how they do things. My observation is that other MMO’s have as significant deviations between class performance as GW2 … that’s not an accident or a conscious decision. It’s just a consequence of how difficult it is to achieve. Therefore, it’s massively unreasonable to keep pushing it in their faces as a failure to develop the classes, especially if the measuring stick is something PLAYERS conceived and not the devs. Again, the meta is not a Anet conception, even if it’s a result of their development of the game.

That’s all good but it still stands that every time someone refers to meta and class balance, they are way off the mark, like you did. Anet doesn’t strive to balance according to what is meta.

And I completely disagree; Anet should not work with speed clear guilds for class balancing goals because speed clearing has nothing to do with how the game is designed and people in those guilds have no idea what Anet has planned for the game or what direction it’s going.

My, ‘dont care comment’ isn’t really about my own personal feelings. I guess it wasn’t clear, I’m saying your assumption that all MMO developers behave the same is pointless. Anet is their own company, what blizzard or anyone else does is irrelevant to the discussion. You seem to want to think in monoliths, and I’m saying thats a bad way to try to understand things.

Saying the meta is player made is incredibly deceptive. It is the result of class balance. There isn’t some grand conspiracy made by qt to ensure rev is auto kicked from raid groups. There is however incompetency on Anet’s part.

Heres the core of my grief with anet. Rev and necro have been autokicked from raid groups for 8 months now, and they havn’t done anything about it. You seem fine with that, I am not. Its that simple, we don’t agree on that, and clearly never will.

edit: for comparison look at ele. It gets nerfed out of the meta for 1 update, and then anet buffs it back into the sky, so high that they have to nerf it about 8 hours later. If your one of Anet’s golden boy classes you can rest assured that they will always buff you back into the meta, but if your one of their lesser pleb classes, you better charish your 3 months in the sun, because they are going to cut you down and never give it back.

if necro could get a 10-man or even 5-man party buff like pinpoint distribution, but for increased expertise it would already guarantee a spot in the raid. just put it on curses minor and let it work it’s magic.

thrag.9740:

My, ‘dont care comment’ isn’t really about my own personal feelings. I guess it wasn’t clear, I’m saying your assumption that all MMO developers behave the same is pointless.

It’s not pointless at all. The whole industry behaves that way and as I explained, there is a very real, pragmatic reason for that; you might not believe this but it’s an optimized solution, driven by business constraints and restrictions. You might crap on that because the optimized solution doesn’t deliver what you and others want. That’s just a function of not understanding the reality of the development side, the business restrictions/constraints and probably some unrealistic expectations as well.

Maybe you decided in your head that somehow, Anet is different. I’m not sure why you would do that. While they have delivered some very different ideas to MMO format, fundamentally, it’s still an MMO with all the same problems the others face that have multi classes. Not as single MMO I’ve played with multi-classes does not have the problem where players want classes to deliver similar performance and completely different concepts. Anet’s solution to that is as optimal as it gets, just like everyone elses, because the constraints are based on business factors that are all similar among the MMO companies, not programming or conceptual ones.

Yes, from a performance perspective, we don’t like the class differences. Unfortunately, we love the conceptual differences. The fact is that the easiest path for balance is the conceptual one; it doesn’t need number to justify it’s changes; just the idea of what a dev wants it to be.

I think your core grief with Anet is misplaced, because you again assume that Anet is measuring class performance by ‘kicked from raids’ frequency, which goes back to how the class is positioned in the meta. I’m so certain this is not the case because of observing the industry, that I question how sincere people are or what their actual MMO experience is when they refer to it when complaining about balancing.

Obtena.7952:

You might crap on that because the optimized solution doesn’t deliver what you and others want.

Yes that’s how opinions work. I’m not going to say anet is good because somebody else enjoys their game.

Obtena.7952:

That’s just a function of not understanding the reality of the development side, the business restrictions/constraints and probably some unrealistic expectations as well.

No there is no misunderstanding, its that I don’t care what difficulties Anet faces. I care what product they deliver. I judge their product as it is.

Obtena.7952:

Maybe you decided in your head that somehow, Anet is different.

I continue to judge anet for the product they deliver, nothing more and nothing less.

Obtena.7952:

I’m not sure why you would do that. While they have delivered some very different ideas to MMO format, fundamentally, it’s still an MMO with all the same problems the others face that have multi classes. Not as single MMO I’ve played with multi-classes does not have the problem where players want classes to deliver similar performance and completely different concepts. Anet’s solution to that is as optimal as it gets, just like everyone elses, because the constraints are based on business factors that are all similar among the MMO companies, not programming or conceptual ones.

Look at my example with ele. When it comes to ele, anet is willing to make hasty and fast changes. Yes their will always be imbalance, but it doesn’t have to be the same class at the bottom for 5 years. Metas can be adapting and evolving rather than stagnant. All the resources they devoted to fixing ele could have been necro one patch, revenant another patch, circle back around to ele after a few updates.

Obtena.7952:

I think your core grief with Anet is misplaced, because you again assume that Anet is measuring class performance by ‘kicked from raids’ frequency, which goes back to how the class is positioned in the meta. I’m so certain this is not the case because of observing the industry, that I question how sincere people are or what their actual MMO experience is when they refer to it when complaining about balancing.

I don’t care how anet measures anything. That doesn’t affect me. I care whether or not my necro can raid. It can’t.

Hesacon.8735:

I did half a dungeon run the other night just to be kicked at the final boss because I was a necro. It was freaking CoF.

I would take a screenshot and submit to Anet, so they can handle it. That’s messed up.

thrag.9740:

I don’t care how anet measures anything. That doesn’t affect me. I care whether or not my necro can raid. It can’t.

Fair enough … you care to ignore the reality. Still, pointing that blame at Anet is unjustified. I raid with my necro all the time and so do others … so how do you resolve that conundrum? Anet likes us and not you? There is a secret list you are on of ‘have-nots’?

You simply have it wrong. It’s not Anet’s fault you can’t raid with your necro. Certainly they create difficult conditions for it, but the difference comes down to players. If you can’t raid with your necro, you’re doing something wrong. That’s not Anet’s problem to solve.

The answer to your problem is the same as it was when people were kicking non-meta on dungeons.

reapex.8546:

Hesacon.8735:

I did half a dungeon run the other night just to be kicked at the final boss because I was a necro. It was freaking CoF.

I would take a screenshot and submit to Anet, so they can handle it. That’s messed up.

I used the in game report button for what that’s worth.

Let’s be honest with ourselves here… You’re not being kicked for playing necro or rev, you’re being kicked for ONLY HAVING a necro or a rev.

If you only have one charactered geared for raids, it’s mathematically impossible that you have the raid experience that the Commander was looking for in the LFG. The type of Commander who’s going to just flat out kick bad people also probably listed “100+ LI” (If not more). And I don’t see how you could have amassed 100 LI’s and not accumulated any gear along the way. I also don’t see how you could have tolerated getting 100 LI’s playing only Necro and dealing with all of the hate that attracts.

And it’s not a balance issue (not with necros at least, rev’s still need some love), a competent necro who’s not a complete failure at finding his chill fields, epi-cleaving, utilizing icebows, and running pets with projectile finishers can EASILY get top dps in half of the raid encounters while remaining competitive in the others (except KC). However, bad necros are probably the worst dps class you can bring, because a bad ranger or ele can atleast face roll out something that sort of resembles competitive dps numbers… Which I think is why a lot of Commanders don’t want necro’s in pugs—it’s not really worth the gamble when you don’t know the players and just want to get through the content.

narcx.3570:

Let’s be honest with ourselves here… You’re not being kicked for playing necro or rev, you’re being kicked for ONLY HAVING a necro or a rev.

If you only have one charactered geared for raids, it’s mathematically impossible that you have the raid experience that the Commander was looking for in the LFG. The type of Commander who’s going to just flat out kick bad people also probably listed “100+ LI” (If not more). And I don’t see how you could have amassed 100 LI’s and not accumulated any gear along the way. I also don’t see how you could have tolerated getting 100 LI’s playing only Necro and dealing with all of the hate that attracts.

And it’s not a balance issue (not with necros at least, rev’s still need some love), a competent necro who’s not a complete failure at finding his chill fields, epi-cleaving, utilizing icebows, and running pets with projectile finishers can EASILY get top dps in half of the raid encounters while remaining competitive in the others (except KC). However, bad necros are probably the worst dps class you can bring, because a bad ranger or ele can atleast face roll out something that sort of resembles competitive dps numbers… Which I think is why a lot of Commanders don’t want necro’s in pugs—it’s not really worth the gamble when you don’t know the players and just want to get through the content.

Even if you have other classes geared you will often get kicked for wanting to play necro or rev. I have every class geared and have raided on all of them but rev is my favorite. If I join a group as rev people will ask if I have something else I can play, I do but if I say I do I will be asked to reroll. If I accept I just never get to play rev aside from hand kiting at deimos. If I refuse I likely get kicked or at best build animosity towards me for being selfish and deliberately contributing less to the group than I could on a good class.

@narcx Idk what your talking about, I have 350+ li, full clear weekly with my static and get many more kills each week for fun. I have literally at least one of every class full ascended and raid ready, and most of the characters have 2 or 3 builds ready to go. I don’t know where your getting this , ’ You’re not being kicked for playing necro or rev’ from, I guess some misguided assumption that anyone who complains about balance is an inexperienced player.

But I also know the caliber of dps ability my static expects, and I know necro can’t deliver on certain fights. I don’t care about being able to bring a necro in for meme runs at gorseval. Finding your icefield sounds great until your doing a small hitbox boss like MO and literally no area is available. Epi – cleaving? Let me know how that goes at Matthias. Also let me know how necro works out at kc. Actually, anything that isn’t the beloved ele.

@Obtena No, balance issues are Anet’s problem. I’m tired of people apologizing for Anet. Your trying to blame players for the fact that necro has never once been buffed into a top tier dps slot. That’s Anet’s decision, and it’s their fault. People defending that decision allows it to perpetuate.

thrag.9740:

But I also know the caliber of dps ability my static expects, and I know necro can’t deliver on certain fights. I don’t care about being able to bring a necro in for meme runs at gorseval. Finding your icefield sounds great until your doing a small hitbox boss like MO and literally no area is available. Epi – cleaving? Let me know how that goes at Matthias. Also let me know how necro works out at kc. Actually, anything that isn’t the beloved ele.

I straight up said, except on KC… I specifically mentioned that as the one fight necros are bad at. But if you can’t get top dps on MO as necro, you’re doing something very fundamentally wrong with the game. And while yes, you can’t epi-cleave on Matt, you should be bringing plague signet in that fight anyways to help cleanse your group and drop giant poison stacks on him during the rain phases. Or since you have ZOMG-Like-Every-Class-Brah fully geared, why don’t you just have fun going Condi Mes in that fight? Or Condi Rev for that matter (who can pump out near top numbers in that fight as well).

The fact is there’s always going to be some fights that favor certain classes, if they didn’t they’d literally all be exactly the same. And if your static is so strict you need to be cranking out top, top DPS numbers in EVERY fight, you can only achieve that by class hopping between Thief, Ele, Necro, and Mesmer… Not a single dps class can get the top spot in every fight.

necro on KC will do similarly to guard, you can still do 3 orbs KC with 1 reaper in pt if there are some eles

on matthias you can spam suffer which will transfer condis back to him and you will easily beat condi mesmers or other classes. plague signet is a no-no, it has 50% longer cd than suffer.

its hard to be top dps on MO as necro since getting your ice fields is harder on that boss and you’re expected to epi the boss to kill adds and not the other way around. also thieves obliterate there.

25 stacks of poison every 30 seconds + group support (Plague Signet) vs 5 stacks of poison and 3 stacks of bleed every 20 seconds (Suffer)?

Besides, after he transforms, he changes phases every 30 seconds anyway…

druids remove conditions constantly so it’s not like you’re gonna wait for all these condis to stack up, and if you do you waste even more time to transfer. suffer is more consistent.

Anet’s fault. End of discussion.

thrag.9740:

@Obtena No, balance issues are Anet’s problem. I’m tired of people apologizing for Anet. Your trying to blame players for the fact that necro has never once been buffed into a top tier dps slot. That’s Anet’s decision, and it’s their fault. People defending that decision allows it to perpetuate.

Necro doesn’t need to be buffed to top tier DPS slot to be welcomed on raid teams; there are many other factors that contribute to a class being desirable. This simple application of logic is faulty. If that was true, the list of classes not raiding would be much longer.

As I said .. I raid (and successfully) with necro all the time. So it’s Anet’s fault YOU can’t get a team … but on the other hand, it’s Anet’s fault that I do? Nothing you have said here addresses the question I asked you … how do you resolve the fact that I do raid on my necro, despite the claim that a lack of balancing prevents you from doing the same? The only conclusion I can come to is that I’m either THAT awesome at playing my necro, or your claim makes no sense.

It’s not a balancing problem that prevents you from getting a team, yet allows me to raid successfully with the SAME class. That makes zero sense. There is no logical train of thought that leads any reasonable person to conclude necros can’t get raid spots because of balancing issues and lacking DPS when people use necros in teams to successfully raid.

i successfully raid on necro but im THAT awesome at playing my necro.

anyway, most people who are excluded for being necro aren’t because of balance (deathly chill buff really balanced our dps to be good). if you are being rejected it’s because of necro stigma and player mentality. a lot of trash level players run necro in fractals and people are afraid of getting these people in their squad. i myself often witness necro pugs with death magic/blood magic or(and) warhorn. rise, parasitic contagion, flesh golem 24/7. my eyes literally burn and i judge these people harshly. while i dont agree with kicking on sight, i kinda understand this but i wish people would just resort to gearcheck and traitcheck.

@narcx Sorry, forgot you mentioned kc. ohhh i just realized your talking about cleave damage. Of course necro can be top cleave damage, but cleave damage is often irrelevant. Using epi at MO to be top cleave is meaningless. Kill the statues a little slower and the power classes will just gain cleave dps. It won’t change how many spikes you encounter after 25%. Top cleave damage at xera won’t let you do stand still. Cleave at vg is all irrelevant damage. What matters often is single target dps, this is where necro struggles, especially on small hitbox.

@obtena I am not saying only the top dps class is welcomed. I am pointing out that when a class like ele is nerfed out of the meta, they are immediately buffed back to being amazing. Meanwhile necro can be bottom tier for half a year, and all we get is incrementalism. Where are the fast drastic changes to necro?

@obtena I resolve it because I’m not foolish enough to believe a single person playing necro in raids is proof that there is good balance. Also, I don’t really play necro, I play ps predominantly, and then chrono if we need it. But I’m also not blind, I see how necro is treated in groups. Pre-hot I use to trash people who would kick necro, but I realized something. Who has the power? Anet does. That’s why I always try to redirect peoples frustrations back at Anet. Anet loves it when players fight each other, and distract from their own failures. If the entire community ever unified its voice, and complained about balance, we could actually get something to change.

Otherwise, I guess keep enjoying your condi necro, and be thankful your not a rev. Or a necro who wants to play power. Or a mesmer who wants to play power dps. Or a guardian who wants to play condi. Or a ranger who wants to play power. As long as your one specific class is good, I guess that means balance is good.

Sublimatio.6981:

i successfully raid on necro but im THAT awesome at playing my necro.

anyway, most people who are excluded for being necro aren’t because of balance (deathly chill buff really balanced our dps to be good). if you are being rejected it’s because of necro stigma and player mentality. a lot of trash level players run necro in fractals and people are afraid of getting these people in their squad. i myself often witness necro pugs with death magic/blood magic or(and) warhorn. rise, parasitic contagion, flesh golem 24/7. my eyes literally burn and i judge these people harshly. while i dont agree with kicking on sight, i kinda understand this but i wish people would just resort to gearcheck and traitcheck.

I want to throw my support behind blood magic + parasitic contagion + flesh golem. It is basically a fool proof way to carry pugs through cm 100 lol. Although for raiding….yeah its bad. Idk why they are bringing rise.

Sublimatio.6981:

i successfully raid on necro but im THAT awesome at playing my necro.

anyway, most people who are excluded for being necro aren’t because of balance (deathly chill buff really balanced our dps to be good). if you are being rejected it’s because of necro stigma and player mentality. a lot of trash level players run necro in fractals and people are afraid of getting these people in their squad. i myself often witness necro pugs with death magic/blood magic or(and) warhorn. rise, parasitic contagion, flesh golem 24/7. my eyes literally burn and i judge these people harshly. while i dont agree with kicking on sight, i kinda understand this but i wish people would just resort to gearcheck and traitcheck.

I agree that blood magic isn’t needed at all, a waste of potential in my eyes and I don’t play it but besides some “fans” that like to run this trait line because their own reasons I know why others are bringing it. They meet horrible tempests, power ps warriors that are downed every minute and some other shenanigans and feel to support their group.

What I personally have to admit is I don’t like the greatsword rotation at all and I have the impression I play a static character when using it. That’s why I still stick to warhorn off hand.
Flesh golem all the time? No!
Flesh golem always at bosses with break bar? Yes! The reason here is like stated above, you can’t rely on anybody in fractals and it’s often the case that there are only 2 players/sources who bring cc, one of them is me although others playing classes which could bring a good amount of cc.
When looking at the dps meter times have changed for me. Before greatsword came into the condi rotation I was top dps in necro groups without good tempests, thiefs or very good guards. Now it’s different sometimes I’m top sometimes definitely low as …. but the best thing in fracs for me is the amount of trash and that’s a point where you shine so much as necro because you don’t need pulls for cleaving all the stuff. An intelligent use of epidemic has big impact on being fast, that’s what I still like on necro.

Same goes for raids, as a decent necro you can help so much that other dps classes can completely focus on the main target/boss. If some people don’t want this or don’t know this, ok. It’s good to have a static group with knowledge, hell, pugs are pugs and will still be pugs. If they buff necro to top dps other classes will be excluded just because they have the lowest amount of dps and so on…

I also agree to thrag here for a bit. Other classes get little buffs/nerfs on the fly while necro has always been behind for years or even release except for the short time where we could spam horrors etc. What’s so hard on giving necro a little bit more love without making them gamebreaking.

thrag.9740:

I want to throw my support behind blood magic + parasitic contagion + flesh golem. It is basically a fool proof way to carry pugs through cm 100 lol.

it’s bad – bottom line cut & dry. there, i said it.
you dont need any of these things to carry 100cm. maybe I would take contagion or rise if I wanted to do an entire boss solo, but if there are noobs running around taking aggro you can go full dps and survive until phased, then they get ressed after bullet phase, rinse & repeat. especially since killing it quickly means less opportunities to get killed, since fight is shorter.
taking blood magic is absolutely the worst thing you can do, it’s the biggest dps drop. soul reaping is essential to keep rotation flowing (important cd reductions). + necro is a DPS class not a support class. there are druids and chronos to ress/distort people

Sublimatio I agree with your overall statement. However, I am talking specifically about pugs. Pugs often don’t bring a chrono or a druid or either to cm 100. Often pug groups for cm 100 turn into 5 dps slots, no warrior, no druid, no chrono, and no cc. In these situations, I feel no shame bringing the safety build.

Flesh golem cc is just too darn good in a pug group. Remember lack of cc can easily wipe boss 2.

Transfusion saves a lot of people who go down in aoes on first and final boss.

Parasitic contagion….well usually not necessary especially if you have the bit of sustain from blood magic. Transfusion shines when your putting yourself into high risk trying to res people. Idk maybe this is just a problem I experience, but it seems like I can never break out of res animation to dodge things.

If I have a druid/chrono that I trust, then yeah id say go for full dps (actually what I personally do is swap to my condi ps or one of my preferred dps builds like power engi). But the fact is, the amount of time difference due to the safety necro build vs full dps necro is less than the time of a wipe. And a lot of pugs wipe.

edit: YOU don’t need those things to carry cm 100. I do lol.

thrag.9740:

@obtena I resolve it because I’m not foolish enough to believe a single person playing necro in raids is proof that there is good balance.

That’s my point exactly … good balance isn’t why I get teams. I don’t need to play balanced classes to be successful in raids. You’re statements that you need good balance to do so make no sense. It’s consequently why you fail at getting teams.

Obtena I think you have an incorrect grasp of my position. I do get teams. I full clear weekly with my static, and I pug more kills each week for fun. I don’t play necro, but I do see how they are treated. That’s why I am here arguing that Anet should stop showing such blatant favoritism.

Do you believe it is harder for a necro to join raid groups? Do you believe it should be harder for a necro to join raid groups?

came here to provide some insight on how necros are treated in pug raids.
shortly after these i was kicked

thrag.9740:

Obtena I think you have an incorrect grasp of my position. I do get teams. I full clear weekly with my static, and I pug more kills each week for fun. I don’t play necro, but I do see how they are treated. That’s why I am here arguing that Anet should stop showing such blatant favoritism.

Do you believe it is harder for a necro to join raid groups? Do you believe it should be harder for a necro to join raid groups?

I don’t think it should or shouldn’t be harder. I understand that classes aren’t equivalent in performance. That results in classes not being equivalent in other ways. I accept these variations because I’m a reasonable, veteran MMO player. It’s not about what I think, it’s about how these games work. I can wish all kinds of things. I could even convince myself that it’s someone’s fault, just like you do … that doesn’t change how and why these games work this way.

… instead I have a rational view of these sorts of things; there isn’t much value in chasing meta; most vets know this and certainly, every game dev does; it’s why you don’t see them try it. You have a different idea, one that isn’t inline with the reality of any MMO I’ve ever seen, including this one. It’s simply not a tenable position to have.

Of course this means little to you; you think your faith that Anet should set it straight is more powerful than the truth.

Its not reasonable to expect that anet is able to buff necro? I guess that means they are incompetent.

I didn’t say it wasn’t reasonable for Anet to buff necro, ever. Please try to follow if you are genuinely participating in this discussion. In fact, Anet has buffed necro many times in the past and still, are power necro’s that you want to play meta? Are you incorrectly associating buffs with balancing to the meta? I would have a long, hard look at the history of this game before holding on to that assumption.

I see, so its reasonable to expect anet to be able to buff necro, its just a complete coincidence that in 5 years, it has never made necro meta.

You claim, Anet balances without any consideration for the meta. Well that sure is one heck of a coincidence that ele always gets buffed to the top, warrior as well, and necro down below. All without any thought or plan according to you.

thrag.9740:

I see, so its reasonable to expect anet to be able to buff necro, its just a complete coincidence that in 5 years, it has never made necro meta.

You claim, Anet balances without any consideration for the meta. Well that sure is one heck of a coincidence that ele always gets buffed to the top, warrior as well, and necro down below. All without any thought or plan according to you.

Players determine what sets the meta. You think ANet anticipated that chronomancers would be the meta tank? Plus, condi necro remains meta for pugging fractals and essential to organized WvW raids.

ANet mostly doesn’t care about what the top or the bottom players are doing in PvE; they care what the majority are doing. “Meta” gets the most attention from players, because people theory craft optimum, no one cares about the “best average” build, and folks that don’t run meta complain about it.

I agree with you that when ANet wants to mix things up, it always seems as if they buff ele or warrior, nerf mesmer, and ignore necro. That doesn’t mean they are attempting to balance at the edges of player skill.

thrag.9740:

I see, so its reasonable to expect anet to be able to buff necro, its just a complete coincidence that in 5 years, it has never made necro meta.

That’s not a coincidence at all … especially if you understand that ‘being meta’ isn’t Anet’s motivation to buff a class. Somehow that logic escapes you completely.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

condi necro remains meta for pugging fractals

Obtena.7952:

That’s not a coincidence at all … especially if you understand that ‘being meta’ isn’t Anet’s motivation to buff a class. Somehow that logic escapes you completely.

Your saying that Anet doesn’t buff a class based on whether or not it is meta correct? That Anet doesn’t consider the meta when balancing? So then how is it not a giant coincidence that ele and warrior always seem to make their way into the meta? Please explain your argument, because I don’t understand.

It seems clear as day to me that Anet must be choosing to hinder necro and buff ele.

Look I don’t no nothin about necros cos I never interest slightest bit in make one, but times be changin and roles be likewise (and other ppl perception of thm be, similar to it),

It true some class r still remain entrapped in mold as a underdog, but there is some (more?) room to wiggle through for these class that lost in demand for meta. Being here the Rev in question, more particularly one niche build variant I lcan call ‘self sustain’ rev which is really a selfish healer in truth. But in this I do see a remembered glory of the rev class, even if its a lonesome and isolated play. To be here honest I’m feeling like w4 (and may be w3? ) is where the habitat for rev is restricted to. That from what I feel honest but it still a good step up from having niche role in 0 wing .. such as was.

I been bringing the rev for many successful deimos run and actually for some 100cm last boss where everyone wIpe so I can solo res every body, but that was hella limited in scope still. So here now, I like to exist within routine so I never push myself to try new fight with rev, dunno why but the idea never occur me. As wel, there is a general fear of pugs I think. Pugs r very tendent to be restrictive with their norms, and it doesn’t help if u are feel good that u contribute to that effect urself. So today I just figure cos why not, and others in the pug lauding the rev class and say to look for a kiter rev for the boss 1 in this wing. So i was like yolo I can swap to rev I’ll try it out, and obvs I had no experience with it. But it was kinda interesting perspective and was fun when we got it killed in the 2nd try, so was like wow not so bad as I was feeling. But this go just to show u, maybe role of a rev can become more diversified to where ur have a more main stream role to fill as urs, that day may come or it may not. But I feel kiting rev or to do whatever job no one else inclined to do (as a trash picker, almost) can still feel as it revitalize the class in some way. I feel the possibilities can only increase tbh, but rite now as it be class as u was mentioned is a bit on the neglected side.